Living Car Free - Broadband, Yes. Toilet, No. (NYTimes article on minimalist living)

Here is a great NYTimes article that just came out on a couple who lives minimally: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/garden/31yurt.html?pagewanted=1&em

I think the author did an excellent job on describing both the allure and difficulty associated with minimalist living, and really drove home a good point that minimalist living isn't about going without, it's about a completely different approach to life with its own challenges and rewards.

Nice article. I like reading about people who "rough it". I spent a while doing something similar back in the late 1970s, early 80s. We had a composting toilet, but, of course, no broadband. No yurt, but a self-erected, small house. Closest thing we had to broadband Internet was the Book of the Month club. It was fun for a while.

The article is beautifully written. Thank you for sharing. I love this forum: Everyone is so philosophical and intellectual. I really love it. :thumb:

My thoughts:

If it works for them: okay. It is not going to work for me. I am unable to go a week without showering. I just don't want to do it. How a woman presumably she is still having the natural process monthly:--how she does it---not bathing specifically during this time frame of the month: ummm, no.

---Im simply not going to be able to live under these conditions. Licking plates: no. Being cold all the time. No. I love hot weather.

The baby: no. It would be kewl to some degree with me and my partner/spouse/mate what have you but with a child: Absolutely not.

I am fully aware it has been done for centuries and this lifestyle is lived by people in many parts of the world however I was not born into this culture and am not interested in imitating it. I have a choice. I choose not to want to live/exist this way. No judgement from me. For sanitary and medical reasons: I would be emotionally, spiritually and maternally unable to live this remotely, this minimalistically with a baby. Knowing what I know about sanitation (meaning since I have lived with toilets, hot water)--I would not be able to "back track" and do without.

I like hot water. I want to bathe regularly. I am thankful for running water and toilet facilities. If I had no knowledge of these things and this is what I was born into:--could I miss what I never had or had no knowledge of? I don't think so.

The yurt: I LOVE! I have always loved yurts, the teeny tiny homes and mobile homes.

An interesting phenomenon in the human psyche: It is like rap stars that brag about poverty and from being from the most desolate, depressing, horrific environments. Why is this something to brag about? Why do teenagers want to emulate this? Why do wealthy children want to "slum" it? (sorry for the slang) Why do so many people want to be something they are not? And why is that something usually at a lower spectrum? So many people are desperate to be so different. And that is the irony: in trying so hard to be different, to stand out---you are like everyone else.

Each of us searches for our individual purpose. For many living is simply not enough.

I am not into extremism however I do not judge what works for others. This would not work for me. The walking and traveling: okay. This lifestyle would be extreme, counter productive, uncomfortable and simply not feasible for me. Perhaps I have been spoiled by modern conventions.

Question for the OP:

*Do you think the broadband necessity is telling?*

Rowan and I are currently living a very minimalistic lifestyle, sort of similar to theirs, only in a small cabin in the Australian bush. Their yurt is 452 square feet, and our cabin is about 600 square feet.

We've also got a small kitchen with just a few feet of counter space, but we do have running water. Rowan has installed a sink, and the necessary piping from our 2000 litre tank on the hill behind us. The water in that tank, and the 1000 litre tank next to the house, come from rain. When it rains, the 1000 litre tank fills with water which we pump up to the 2000 litre tank. In a time of no rain, we haul water up from a stream a km or so away. I wonder why they haven't set something up to collect rain water.

During the winter we were able to get away with only a car cooler for a "fridge" because it was cold enough to keep most food fresh, but now that it is summer, we had to come up with another idea, and so Rowan bought a small chest freezer and a device, which he installed, which converts the chest freezer to a fridge. The chest freezer is an energy efficient one to begin with, and then the principles of "cold sinks, heat rises" means that this is more efficient than a regular upright fridge.

We also travel at least an hour, often more, once a week, or once every other week, to get our groceries and supplies. Our nearest grocery store is 8 km away, but it is really, really small and doesn't have much more than emergency food. The next closest one is 25 km away, and it's expensive. We use it if we're going to be in that town anyway, but otherwise we prefer the variety and prices in the larger centre.

Our heat comes from a fireplace. In the winters there were mornings (even here in Australia) where the inside of our cabin was 5C ... just above freezing. We have, however, insulated the whole cabin now, so hopefully next winter won't be quite so cold.

We do have a flush toilet, in an outhouse ... we use the water from the 2000 litre tank to flush, sometimes, but more often than not, we use used water ... left over from baths, washing clothes, etc. I'm guessing there must be a septic tank somewhere, but I'm not quite sure where it is.

We don't have a shower. We do have a bathtub, which is filled with a hose connected to the tap from the kitchen sink. And we do have a hotwater heater which uses LPG. In the winter we took weekly baths because there was lots of water, but now that it is summer, we have to conserve water so the weekly bath is out. Fortunately I've been working at a place with a shower this past month, so I've been showering relatively frequently. But that seasonal work will soon come to an end and I'll return to the "old fashioned" way of bathing I was doing prior to working there .... bathing in about 5 litres of water in a plastic bucket. I would love to be able to walk an hour once a week to a shower. However, setting up some sort of shower is in the plans.

We do have a wash machine, and it is set up so that we use the rinse water from the first load as the wash water for the second load ... and then the used wash water is used to flush the toilet. And we hang our clothes to dry.

But I'm curious to know what they do about power. If they are running a computer, they need power. We're 100% on solar now, and with our current setup it is a problem if there is more than one day in a row of clouds ... we don't have enough power to run our energy efficient fridge, a single computer, and some 12-volt lights. We are upgrading our system to allow us to experience at least three cloudy days in a row.

I had to smile at this statement: "They decided they could live without running water, shower, bath or a working toilet, but they had to have broadband Internet access." ... the last couple days I've only had limited access to my computer. I am fine going a week or more without a shower, and having limited access to running water, and flushing my toilet by pouring a bucket of used water down ....... but take away my computer, and it feels like an arm has been removed!!

I can totally understand why they would choose that life - except why in Alaska where it is bitter cold? We've chosen a similar life in many ways - we're traveling on our bikes with our children.

We carry everything we need on our bikes, which means we have very little in the way of possessions. altough we do use toilets and showers at hotels when we stay at them, we camp out a lot and head back behind a bush to to our business. My sons have repeatedly said they prefer going to the bathroom outside than in a toilet.

I think there is someting about a simple lifestyle that is fulfulling and satisfying. You have a chance to really focus on what is important and what is not - that's what's hard to find in today's society. When you live simply, you realize you don't need all that stuff and tend to be more content with little.

I am glad we are raising our boys ths way. They each have a little bag on the bikes for their stuff - whatever they want to cram in there they can. They each have a few toys and a Gameboy, and that's it. they don't need more. If they find something else they want, they have to get rid of something else to make room. The boys are very creative and play with sitcksand stones and pinecones - who needs all the commercial stuff?

Badboy- After reading the article and seeing the photos, I came to the same conclusion as you. While I think it is great they chose to live in that fashion, the hygiene really is a concern for me. She, being a woman should want to wash her triangle more often than not. He gets crusty down there, he needs to wash too. I wonder how often the baby is really cleaned. It is cold in Alaska, but to have to live in the same sweaters day after day would get old. It looks like they live so cold that they cannot allow their bodies to breathe. I think there are cleaner ways to live as a minimalist.

Machka- Your way of being a minimalist is great and I think many more should live this way. I do my part and it works for me.

Nancy- I can't say enough about what you and your family are doing.

I grew up in a rural setting where hot water and sewer facilities were pretty rudimentary. We got a weekly bath and other than whatever washing we could get in a sink... that was it. Nowadays, I am addicted to a daily shower. I suspect most of the fascination with "cleanliness" is cultural or even just plain habit.

The article is beautifully written. Thank you for sharing. I love this forum: Everyone is so philosophical and intellectual. I really love it. :thumb:

My thoughts:

If it works for them: okay. It is not going to work for me. I am unable to go a week without showering. I just don't want to do it. How a woman presumably she is still having the natural process monthly:--how she does it---not bathing specifically during this time frame of the month: ummm, no.



She is likely breastfeeding and experiencing lactational amenorrhea. Also not having a shower does not equal not making use of water and a washcloth.

I grew up in a rural setting where hot water and sewer facilities were pretty rudimentary. We got a weekly bath and other than whatever washing we could get in a sink... that was it. Nowadays, I am addicted to a daily shower. I suspect most of the fascination with "cleanliness" is cultural or even just plain habit.

The "daily shower" is a cultural thing, and only a very recent cultural thing ... as of the late 1970s/early 1980s. A lot of people seem to forget that ... or are too young to remember. When I was growing up, we got two baths a week: Wednesday and Saturday ... and that was a lot. Most of my friends only got the Saturday bath. In between we washed our face, hands, and neck in the sink every day.

I got so I thought I needed a daily shower, and then I went back to University, and by about the third year I was so busy with school, work, travelling back and forth to both, trying to keep up some sort of exercise routine, and especially living in a variety of places here and there that either didn't have shower facilities or had limited facilities, that it was simpler to shower only 3 or 4 times a week. And many of my classmates did the same thing.

So coming here, where I could only bathe once a week wasn't a huge transition. I do enjoy showers, and it has been a wonderful luxury to be able to shower twice a week this past month at work .... but it isn't really necessary to shower more often than that. Even if you're a woman, like I am. You can keep clean in other ways.


travelmama - it isn't that cold here in Australia (we only got down to freezing 0C), but I spent the winter wearing one sweater combination per week. I didn't have much in the way of clothing when I arrived here. We picked up a few things from an opp shop shortly after I got here, and then I just wore the same thing all week long. If you use wool, which I did, and it looks like they do too, your body can breathe. I suspect a lot of the synthetic fabrics wouldn't allow for that, but they are generally not all that practical in those situations anyway.

Also when we went to bed (and I suspect it would be the same for them), we changed into night attire, which for me consisted of a very large baggy sweatshirt and sweatpants ... looser and different from what I wore during the day. On realy cold nights I might wear a T-shirt under the sweat shirt. I found that much variety was all I needed.


rockmom - my cleaning method now is the washcloth and water method. They don't have running water, but they do have well water (and snow, which can be melted into water). What I do, and what they might do as well, is to put about 3 litres of cold water into a plastic bin, and top it off with about 2 litres of water I've boiled. Then I wet my hair down with that water, apply shampoo, and then rinse it off with that water. That takes care of the hair. Then I use a wash cloth and wash down the rest of me with that water, which is now slightly soapy from the shampoo. I towel off, rinse the washcloth off with a little bit of fresh water, empty the bin into the toilet, and I'm done.

I wish them better luck than I had. I lived off grid up north of Willow, which is considerably colder than where they are. I didn't have a sexy yurt either. It was a derelict trailer and a garden shed. That's the reality for most mortals living away from civilization. It's rough, dirty and extremely difficult. Far from minimizing my environmental footprint, I carved up an acre of wilderness with a chainsaw and burned way more kerosene, diesel and gas than I care to think about in an often-vain effort to keep from freezing at forty below zero. Plus I had to do a 190 mile a day commute! It all ended with the inevitable car crash on the Parks Highway o' Death.

I live in the downtown of Anchorage now, and ironically I use a heck of a lot less fossil fuel. A minimal amount from a forced air heater than also heats a dozen other apartments, a little bit of electricity for efficient lights, and that's about it. I have no car and need none. I've set up a great pantry that's full of locally grown produce and I have a freezer full of home cooked meals ready to go. Civilization isn't always bad for the environment.

Mind you, the SUMMERS were fantastic. Not a care in the world and those endless sunny days fishing. Tons of food to be had all over. But I should have done what most folks do and head to town for the winter.

And I did love my weekly bath. I used a 50 gallon feed trough--the hard plastic kind you get for livestock. Heated the water on a custom-made high powered propane tripod in a 15 gallon USN surplus pot. I loved those hot baths in the spring snow come April. Or under the stars in September listening to old time radio on an ancient AM receiver. It spoiled me for very hot baths, which are actually hard to come by these days. There's something about being in a hot bubble bath surrounded by great mounds of snow.

But if I ever do it again I'm not doing it all year, and I'm going to skip the commute!

This was my home in the shed. I learned to construct an ultra bed from old military surplus wool blankets and insulating pads that was good down to about zero or a little below. After that I had to bring in some heat source. It was kind of cozy, and you could hunt without getting out of bed by just opening the shed door!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/GregShedwithGrouse.jpg?t=1262656449

PS--ruffed grouse and sailor boy pilot bread go very well together! Those were yummy birds. Like flying hamburgers. I still salivate when I see one.

Sounds like it works for them...if you were to try to live like that in many other parts of the country, social services and the code enforcement officers would be all over you. It looks like they have prepared well and made sound decisions. The fact that he is from that part of the country, I am sure played a part in their choosing that location.

Aaron:)

Thanks, but no thanks. In a area with a low population density, this type of living works well, but trying to do it in higher density areas, and I can see a lot of the diseases like cholera making a roaring come back.

They are missing out on a myriad of efficiencies that would make their life so much easier. Not sure if they are doing that by choice to see what it's like to really rough it, or if they just aren't knowledgeable enough to know when they are working way too hard.

A yurt in Alaska??? I know the yurt company advertises such a thing, but even with the "cold weather package" your average retail yurt is woefully inadequate for the winters of Alaska. They would have been much better off spending the $30-40k building a small house with double insulated walls and a russian stove. They probably would have burned 1/4 the amount of wood that they are now. It's also fairly simple to install a hand pump in your yurt/cabin so you don't have to slog water every day. Add in a 50 gallon storage tank (old water heater) and you probably only have to pump a couple times a week. And lastly, get a flippin' xtracycle or something. Walking 3 miles into town each way I'm sure is noble, but again if you just spent hours chopping wood and hauling water, why spend an hour each way walking into town when you could do it in 15-20 minutes, plus haul a lot more back each trip so you wouldn't have to go into town as often.

I don't envy their life and honestly I don't really applaud their efforts. They are using way too much wood for their situation and will probably have to abandon their homestead in five years or so when they have chopped down all the nearby trees for fuel.

The article is beautifully written.

@Bizzz111: Your sentiments are expressed somewhat identical to what I think===I however have no knowledge of this type of lifestyle so cannot be as technical. I guess I really do not understand the purpose of living so extreme. What really is the point? Obviously you can do it if you want to but why is this a choice?

It is like hoarders. Yes, I guess if you choose you can have over a 100 cats but why live this way? There may not be relationship between hoarding and extremism but to some degree it is perplexing why someone would choose to live this way. It is not a judgement on whether it is right or wrong? I am questioning the purpose--why?

I am thoughtful of what others have stated about the baby--but I simply cannot say this lifestyle would be how I would want to begin the stages of my child's life---

I cannot stand a day without taking a bath. Again, if I had no choice and didn't know any better---but as it is --I do know better and do have a choice---and I love a hot bubbly.

@Nancy:

Hi:

I think there is a difference between outright extreme commercialism. I like balances. Perhaps your children enjoy not having commercially produced toys because they know nothing else. This is more of your parenting choice than their personal choice don't you think? This is how you have elected to parent them as opposed to they woke up one day and stated: "I don't want to play with Legos!" Or did they?

What is your reaction to them becoming adults and wanting to assimilate into commercial society (owning a Wii) for example?

What is your reaction to them becoming adults and wanting to assimilate into commercial society (owning a Wii) for example?

Hopefully Nancy's children will have developed the ability to be individuals and think for themselves rather than being assimilated into commercial society.

Rowan and I have a friend who raised his kids in a similar way to the way Nancy is raising hers. Shorly after the oldest one graduated high school she hit the road and travelled around the world for the next 2 years. IMO that's a MUCH better use of money than buying something like a Wii. She got out and lived real life rather than being stuck inside living a virtual life.

I however have no knowledge of this type of lifestyle so cannot be as technical. I guess I really do not understand the purpose of living so extreme. What really is the point? Obviously you can do it if you want to but why is this a choice?


It is a choice because some people don't want to live the same life as so many others. Some people don't want to be sheep following the herd. Some people want to be individuals and have interesting life experiences ... they want to live life to the extreme.

Did you ever watch the show called, "Pioneer Quest" set in Manitoba and filmed in the early 2000s? That show fascinated me ... and interestingly enough, I'm now living a life much like the one in that show, with a few extra conveniences.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0294167/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2000/11/24/mb_pioneer112400.html

And what about in the world of cycling? Have you never wanted to push yourself to extremes there ... to test your limits ... to see what your body can do? I did ... and so I got into ultracycling - Randonneuring and 24-hour races, and I loved them.

I have no desire to live a usual, ordinary, run-of-the-mill life. For me, that's just too boring. And I'm guessing the couple in the article feel the same way.

Thanks, but no thanks. In a area with a low population density, this type of living works well, but trying to do it in higher density areas, and I can see a lot of the diseases like cholera making a roaring come back.

Living a lifestyle like they do would lose a lot of it's appeal if there were other people around.

The one concern I'd have in that situation would be to ensure that my outhouse is far enough away from my well so that my well water wouldn't become contaminated.

I wish them better luck than I had. I lived off grid up north of Willow, which is considerably colder than where they are. I didn't have a sexy yurt either. It was a derelict trailer and a garden shed. That's the reality for most mortals living away from civilization. It's rough, dirty and extremely difficult. Far from minimizing my environmental footprint, I carved up an acre of wilderness with a chainsaw and burned way more kerosene, diesel and gas than I care to think about in an often-vain effort to keep from freezing at forty below zero. Plus I had to do a 190 mile a day commute! It all ended with the inevitable car crash on the Parks Highway o' Death.

I live in the downtown of Anchorage now, and ironically I use a heck of a lot less fossil fuel. A minimal amount from a forced air heater than also heats a dozen other apartments, a little bit of electricity for efficient lights, and that's about it. I have no car and need none. I've set up a great pantry that's full of locally grown produce and I have a freezer full of home cooked meals ready to go. Civilization isn't always bad for the environment.

Mind you, the SUMMERS were fantastic. Not a care in the world and those endless sunny days fishing. Tons of food to be had all over. But I should have done what most folks do and head to town for the winter.

And I did love my weekly bath. I used a 50 gallon feed trough--the hard plastic kind you get for livestock. Heated the water on a custom-made high powered propane tripod in a 15 gallon USN surplus pot. I loved those hot baths in the spring snow come April. Or under the stars in September listening to old time radio on an ancient AM receiver. It spoiled me for very hot baths, which are actually hard to come by these days. There's something about being in a hot bubble bath surrounded by great mounds of snow.

But if I ever do it again I'm not doing it all year, and I'm going to skip the commute!

This was my home in the shed. I learned to construct an ultra bed from old military surplus wool blankets and insulating pads that was good down to about zero or a little below. After that I had to bring in some heat source. It was kind of cozy, and you could hunt without getting out of bed by just opening the shed door!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/GregShedwithGrouse.jpg?t=1262656449

PS--ruffed grouse and sailor boy pilot bread go very well together! Those were yummy birds. Like flying hamburgers. I still salivate when I see one.

I've actually bought that pilot bread! I had no clue what to do with it so it ended up being like huge crackers or matzos that didn't seem overly burnt. Still figuring out what the foodbank gives out and stuff like that, no worries-Heinz ketchup helps any thing but orange juice or Kool Aid.

Ever get froglegs from a foodbank?

Hopefully Nancy's children will have developed the ability to be individuals and think for themselves rather than being assimilated into commercial society.

Rowan and I have a friend who raised his kids in a similar way to the way Nancy is raising hers. Shorly after the oldest one graduated high school she hit the road and travelled around the world for the next 2 years. IMO that's a MUCH better use of money than buying something like a Wii. She got out and lived real life rather than being stuck inside living a virtual life.

Bingo! I have a son and daughter who live car free by choice. They grew up in a semi carlight family. I was hauling them around in the trailer about the time they started walking, they were both riding to the grocery store with me on a regular basis by the time they were in primary school, then riding to school (after we moved) by the time they were in elementary school. Neither one currently uses a bike much for transportation, but live a different life than what is painted by the commercial driven "ideal" lifestyle. They both live fairly simply, love music, books and the arts.

Aaron:)

By the way.

Toilet +1
Broadband nil

If I had to choose...

Nice article. I like reading about people who "rough it". I spent a while doing something similar back in the late 1970s, early 80s. We had a composting toilet, but, of course, no broadband. No yurt, but a self-erected, small house. Closest thing we had to broadband Internet was the Book of the Month club. It was fun for a while.

Ditto, in Hawaii, on the Big Island. I built the one-room cabin out of scrap lumber, mostly. We had outhouse, water catchment system, garden, no phone, no electricity, etc. Before I built that we lived in another similar cabin, and our first child was born in that cabin. (He is now a SSgt in the USMC--so go figger...) It WAS fun, until the baby came and I was washing cloth diapers in buckets of cold water. That was not fun. We moved to another house that had electricity and water, and I bought a used washing machine. But we still were "out on the land" as we used to say. I would do it again, but my husband is not very handy, and I got tired of being the only one who could fix stuff.

We now live in a pretty nice, big, old rambling house in a very small, very "Western" rural ranching community in the mountains. So we have all the modern conveniences, and a grocery store two blocks away. There is a hospital, community college, etc. But we do have half an acre with ditch irrigation, and we grow a garden every year. I don't live car free, and don't want to. I love to travel more than anything in the world. I do commute to work on bike or on foot most of the time, though. There is no public transportation here whatsoever. The nearest public bus is over 50 miles away. The nearest full-service airport is 200 miles away, in another state!

I've actually bought that pilot bread! I had no clue what to do with it so it ended up being like huge crackers or matzos that didn't seem overly burnt

It's a staple up here in AK. It keeps really well. It's essentially hard tack. Good with cheese or with Spam.

For your consideration: I don't really need the broadband that costs $100/month (or whatever). I'm typing this at the library, free of charge, with faster access than any residential broadband service.

I do like my toilet, however, so TEHO.

@Machka:

The point of the question which hopefully will be answered by the person I asked: what if your children reject your notions of anti-commercialism and minimilism. The Wii insertion was for point of reference. I could have said television, telephone or technology in general.

But thanks anyway.

It's vaguely romantic and hey, I've often considered what it'd be like to just take off and live in a similar manner. (though this particular couple seems to be suffering more than they should: is it by choice or because they aren't as industrious as they should be? there are clearly things they could do to improve their lifestyle)

I love water. I work with it every day and I've spent most of my life within a few miles of the Pacific Ocean (on two different sides of it). And since this planet is over 70% water. It's ridiculous to live anywhere or in any manner where one doesn't have constant access to enough water to bathe whenever they want!

But overall I can't help but think that what the world really needs is not for people to learn to live off on their own apart from society, but for people to learn to live right here within society.

Living a lifestyle like they do would lose a lot of it's appeal if there were other people around.

The one concern I'd have in that situation would be to ensure that my outhouse is far enough away from my well so that my well water wouldn't become contaminated.

Unless one has bought considerable acreage to surround them, it seems whatever attracts one person to a isolated location, others will be attracted to it as well. Some of my family members took the necessary precautions to keep their well water from being contaminated by their septic system, only have a new neighbor bulid a place, some distance away, contaminate it for them. This caused my family members considerable expense to drill a far deeper well to escape any contamination by the their new neighbor. After my own personal dealings with all the joyful trappings of well water and personal septic systems, and now having municipal water and sewer, it's been a grateful experience to have clear water run out of the facet regularly, and to have the toilet flush dependably during the rainy season.

I love water. I work with it every day and I've spent most of my life within a few miles of the Pacific Ocean (on two different sides of it). And since this planet is over 70% water. It's ridiculous to live anywhere or in any manner where one doesn't have constant access to enough water to bathe whenever they want!


Have you been to Australia? Where we live our water is rain water ... no rain, no water. We do have some small streams where we could get water, but that involves the hassles of hauling it a fair distance. And we do have a pond a km away which is a bathing option, but not every day.

Although the planet is 70% water ... most of it is in the oceans.

I didn't mean to imply that everyone has the proper access where they live to water: I meant to imply that if you don't have such access, it's silly to live there. Those of us with enough wherewithal to have computers and whatnot surely have enough mobility to accomplish this (i.e. we're not born into poverty in remote africa with no way out). Humans have chosen some pretty stupid places to live.

The water coming out of my tap is rain water as well, or snow water. It's just we store it at elevation and then let it run down to our houses when we need it, producing enough electricity to power the municipal needs of the city of san francisco, its city buildings, its subway and street level tram/bus system, and its airport. Took some thought, that one. But that's what separates us from the animals.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with the water in the oceans. I'd great for bathing, with a little rinse off with rain water if necessary.

I didn't mean to imply that everyone has the proper access where they live to water: I meant to imply that if you don't have such access, it's silly to live there. Those of us with enough wherewithal to have computers and whatnot surely have enough mobility to accomplish this (i.e. we're not born into poverty in remote africa with no way out). Humans have chosen some pretty stupid places to live.

The water coming out of my tap is rain water as well, or snow water. It's just we store it at elevation and then let it run down to our houses when we need it, producing enough electricity to power the municipal needs of the city of san francisco, its city buildings, its subway and street level tram/bus system, and its airport. Took some thought, that one. But that's what separates us from the animals.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with the water in the oceans. I'd great for bathing, with a little rinse off with rain water if necessary.

If you believe that Caslifornia has enough water for everybody that lives there, I think that you are fooling yourself.

Water is becoming a very precious commodity around the world ... especially clean water which can be used for drinking etc. Evidently only 3% of the world's water is fresh, and less than 1/3 of 1% is available for human use at this time. I came from Canada, where the water was generally plentiful, and mostly good, to Australia, where the water is not plentiful. Water is a big issue in Australia because there isn't much of it, and water conservation is a huge issue here.

Bathing and showering is great ... but it isn't necessary to do things like that every day. And if you do opt to shower every day, the recommendation is to limit the shower to 4 minutes.

Here ... California may need to take note of these measures soon too:
http://www.savewater.com.au/


Now in the case of the people in the article, they do have water. They've got a well and they've got snow, so they've got enough to drink. As for bathing and showering, a lot of people have this idea that in order to be clean they've got to immerse themselves in a tub of water, or stand under fast-flowing running water for an extended period of time. And it sounds like this couple do that once a week.

I also do that when I can, but it didn't take me long to figure out how to bathe in about 5 litres of water ... as described in a post above. I would assume that they are doing the same thing in between official showers. Here's my "bathroom".

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4254550985_93d722b323.jpg


Oh and something else to think about ... can you imagine if the whole world moved to where water was plentiful and good?

Water is becoming a very precious commodity around the world ...



I can remember a customer that came in to our business, after some time conversing, our conversation eventually turned to how he bought a house with some acreage that had a clear running artesian well next to the house. The man beamed with such happiness about this fact that you'd thought he won a lottery mega jackpot.

Of course, as I write this post here in Cali, it's pouring down rain, and I'm fighting a leaky roof on one of the buildings on my property.

I can remember a customer that came in to our business, after some time conversing, our conversation eventually turned to how he bought a house with some acreage that had a clear running artesian well next to the house. The man beamed with such happiness about this fact that you'd thought he won a lottery mega jackpot.

Of course, as I write this post here in Cali, it's pouring down rain, and I'm fighting a leaky roof on one of the buildings on my property.

Yes ... during the 5 winter months here, I wondered how there could possibly be any sort of shortage because it rained probably 90% of those 5 months!! But now .....


And the whole issue of water rights and who owns the water and how it can be divided up among individuals and businesses is quite a thing ... I can imagine finding a well on your property would be like winning a jackpot! But, over here in Oz, the government would probably find a way to tax your usage of that water. I'm not sure how it works but there are several small ponds on the property where we live for the purposes of watering the cattle and orchard ... and I believe they are monitored and taxed.

It's ridiculous to live anywhere or in any manner where one doesn't have constant access to enough water to bathe whenever they want!

Water here in the winter turns to ice and snow. And it gets really cold outside. Bathing at all becomes increasingly impractical and downright dangerous in the cold months. I would periodically rent a motel room to do it.

Yes ... during the 5 winter months here, I wondered how there could possibly be any sort of shortage because it rained probably 90% of those 5 months!! But now .....


And the whole issue of water rights and who owns the water and how it can be divided up among individuals and businesses is quite a thing ... I can imagine finding a well on your property would be like winning a jackpot! But, over here in Oz, the government would probably find a way to tax your usage of that water. I'm not sure how it works but there are several small ponds on the property where we live for the purposes of watering the cattle and orchard ... and I believe they are monitored and taxed.


I can see grounds for monitoring and taxing that water if it was pumped from a river or underground aquifer that served others in the area, but not if it was a free flowing stream on one's property that did not serve anyone else in the area.
Now that one of the mills in our area has shut down, which used many millions of gallons of water a day, the water rights that our local water municipality had held all these years has now come into question, and 20 years hence, these rights will be up for grabs since the percentage of municipality's usage has dropped well below the level needed to maintain it's right to that water. I can see Cali trying to divert some of that water away when the water rights do come up for review, and the municipality's usage is still too low.

Yes ... during the 5 winter months here, I wondered how there could possibly be any sort of shortage because it rained probably 90% of those 5 months!! But now .....


And the whole issue of water rights and who owns the water and how it can be divided up among individuals and businesses is quite a thing ... I can imagine finding a well on your property would be like winning a jackpot! But, over here in Oz, the government would probably find a way to tax your usage of that water. I'm not sure how it works but there are several small ponds on the property where we live for the purposes of watering the cattle and orchard ... and I believe they are monitored and taxed.

Water rights are about to become a hot issue in much of the US whether they like it or not. We were in drought conditions a couple of years ago, the local tax authorities were coming around and checking who had wells and how much water we thought we were using from them. Kind of pissed me off more than a little bit, because the golf course community across the way was watering their greens with water from "their" ponds, which just happen to be fed from the same aquifer that feeds our wells. When I pointed this fact out to the local TAX officials I was told that it was none of my business. FWIW at this point in time the information is voluntary, but I suspect that won't last long if we get another drought.

Aaron:)

When I pointed this fact out to the local TAX officials I was told that it was none of my business.


I hope you took the time to educate those officials on this issue. That's just what you need next door...a golf course!

If you believe that Caslifornia has enough water for everybody that lives there, I think that you are fooling yourself.

I make my living in the water treatment and distribution industry. I can assure you that California has enough clean, safe, and tasty water for even double our population. This is the benefit of having a 14,000 foot mountain range in our state and some decent engineers, both past and present.

What California might not have, is enough water to serve all its future population while also continuing to feed lots of other people who don't live here. In other words, as long as California remains an exporter of agricultural products, it will have to be careful on water usage.

But there is always the ocean. Plenty of water there and the technology to make it pure drinking water is well developed. It's just energy intensive and so not cost effective at this time. But it's not like we will ever have a problem supplying water to our population: they'll just have to pay more for it. Average water usage per person in the usa is about 100 gallons/day. At our high bay area rates, we charge our customers about $5 per 1,000 gallons so that means they are spending about 50cents/day for their residential water. If we had to desalinate ocean water instead of using water from the hetch hetchy system, that cost might rise to $1/day. Big deal. (by comparison, I pay $80/day for housing, without utilities! heck, make my water 10 times as expensive and charge me $5/day and I still would barely notice in the grand scheme of things).

note: farmers in the central valley area of modesto/turlock pay $25 for 3-acre feet of water (they can buy additional acre-feet at $13 per). In other words, they only pay $25 for a million gallons of water. That's $25 for the water it'd take the average home customer 27 years to use.

I hope you took the time to educate those officials on this issue. That's just what you need next door...a golf course!

Believe me we don't particularly like having them there. It used to be a tree farm for Weyerhaeuser. It was sold to some developers and it has been a PITA since then. The land we live on has been in my bride's family for over 70 years and change comes hard to a lot of them.

Aaron:)

note: farmers in the central valley area of modesto/turlock pay $25 for 3-acre feet of water (they can buy additional acre-feet at $13 per). In other words, they only pay $25 for a million gallons of water. That's $25 for the water it'd take the average home customer 27 years to use.

That water is not potable, and is taken straight from the source with little or any treatment, and most municipalities will only charge just a little above their pumping/acquisition costs.