Training & Nutrition - loose fat, gain muscle - possible?

I've always heard you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, but I've never heard of any scientific studies cited. Any of you know the real facts?

That's nonsense. The tape will tell you the real facts. Get after it.

Ballor, D.L., Katch, V.L., Becque, M.D., Marks, C.R., American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 47(1): 19-25, 1988.

The real facts. Yes it is possible, but muscles gains are smaller.

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I think what you may have heard is that you can't turn fat into muscle. Which is true. They're two different kinds of cells.

But you can certainly gain muscle mass while simultaneously losing fat mass.

But you can certainly gain muscle mass while simultaneously losing fat mass.

Can you post some scientific info showing this? (not titles to journal articles, but articles or something that we can actually read...) All I've ever read shows that it is virtually impossible.

To gain muscle mass you have to be eating more calories than you are burning. You have to have a surplus. It's very hard to do this and lose fat at the same time because to lose fat you have to be burning more calories than you are eating. Some "coaches" claim that with very precise calculations of protein content and so on, you might be able to gain some muscle while losing some fat but it's very hard to figure that out.

A journal article was cited earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, reading it is the only way you are going to realize that it is possible to gain muscle while losing fat.
The human body isn't a machine, its not always as simple as lift + calories = size, so and so forth.

hey pacificaslim, why would this be impossible? what's compensating for the lost fat when a body's weight stays steady but it has kept on losing flab and inches around the waist? (personal experience)

Can you post some scientific info showing this? (not titles to journal articles, but articles or something that we can actually read...) All I've ever read shows that it is virtually impossible.

To gain muscle mass you have to be eating more calories than you are burning. You have to have a surplus. It's very hard to do this and lose fat at the same time because to lose fat you have to be burning more calories than you are eating. Some "coaches" claim that with very precise calculations of protein content and so on, you might be able to gain some muscle while losing some fat but it's very hard to figure that out.I don't rely on journal articles on this one (or on many other things to do with training): we're all different, our regimes are different, our diets are different, our goals are different. I rely on my watch, altimeter, tape measure and scale. Earlier this year, in a couple of weeks following an indolent period, I lost 1.25" off my belly and put .25" on my thighs, and some on my arms and chest, though I didn't tape those. Not much weight change. I'm so used to protein timing basics that I don't know if that makes a difference any more, and I don't need to experiment on myself any more about this.

I don't intend to sound mean, but damnable posted the title of the article in question. It's very quick to copy this and paste it into Google, click on the first link, and read the abstract. It is unusual to have full journal articles posted online. That's what I did (1 minute ET) and here it is:

Resistance weight training during caloric restriction enhances lean body weight maintenance
DL Ballor, VL Katch, MD Becque and CR Marks
Department of Kinesiology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

To assess the individual and combined effects of weight loss and weight training on body weight and body composition, 40 obese women were randomly assigned to one of four groups for an 8 wk weight-loss study. These groups were control (C); diet without exercise (DO); diet plus weight training (DPE); and weight training without diet (EO). Body weight decreased for DO (-4.47 kg) and DPE (-3.89 kg) compared with C (- 0.38 kg) and EO (0.45 kg). Lean body weight (LBW) increased for EO (1.07 kg) compared with DO (-0.91 kg) and C (-0.31 kg) and for DPE (0.43 kg) compared with DO. Upper-arm muscle areas (determined by radiograph) increased for DPE (11.2 cm2) and EO (10.4 cm2) compared with C (2.7 cm2) and DO (2.1 cm2). It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.

The above stated, that with weight training, it is possible to gain muscle mass even in a state of caloric deficit (.43 kilogram of lean muscle mass gained in 8 weeks). Not alot, but its possible, especially if you give your muscles enough stimulus and enough rest.

Hmph in addition to the journal article I posted and since these are easier to read....
Go here http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss.html

Click on all the links under 'body composition studies' and read.

Can you post some scientific info showing this? (not titles to journal articles, but articles or something that we can actually read...) All I've ever read shows that it is virtually impossible.

To gain muscle mass you have to be eating more calories than you are burning. You have to have a surplus. It's very hard to do this and lose fat at the same time because to lose fat you have to be burning more calories than you are eating. Some "coaches" claim that with very precise calculations of protein content and so on, you might be able to gain some muscle while losing some fat but it's very hard to figure that out.

The trick is to get your body to consume the fat for energy, while at the same time making more muscle. The only way I know is to cut carbs while maintaining adequate protein supply. You limit fat simply to keep the calorie count under control. However, I think most would be happy just to not catabolize muscle as they get leaner. Generally I never like to diet when I start an excercise program, those first few weeks are tough and you need to get stronger first, then work on the body fat. I just started to ride a few weeks ago and I'm not doing anything diet wise right now (pretty hard over the Holidays) because my legs are barking at me, and the last thing I need to do is not feed them. As my fitness is improving, I'm starting to get more serious about the carb intake, and somewhat with the fats. I'm only looking to drop 10-15 lbs, but at age 50, it aint' easy.

^ ++

Woahh- too much book-learnin' - I think I know what the original post and "post comment" was all about.

In this case, you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time is supposed to mean - it is more difficult to build lean body mass while exercising during continuous calorie deficits.(weight loss)

There's no mystery here. And hardly a necessity to cite journal studies. But there is something about these facts that worth remarking.

Exercise types and routines should be tailored to fit the goal of the intended subject. That's a no-brainer. But what I mean is that there are physiological reasons why training plans should be different for a cyclist trying to lose weight and a cyclist trying to get faster. Now, go argue about that.

Well, I don't have any peer reviewed studies, only anectdotal evidence which is: after a few years of riding I had to take all my suits and dress pants to the tailor to get the waist taken in (lost fat) and the seat let out (gained muscle).

Woahh- too much book-learnin' - I think I know what the original post and "post comment" was all about.

In this case, you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time is supposed to mean - it is more difficult to build lean body mass while exercising during continuous calorie deficits.(weight loss)

There's no mystery here. And hardly a necessity to cite journal studies. But there is something about these facts that worth remarking.

Exercise types and routines should be tailored to fit the goal of the intended subject. That's a no-brainer. But what I mean is that there are physiological reasons why training plans should be different for a cyclist trying to lose weight and a cyclist trying to get faster. Now, go argue about that.Whoahh- too quick, RC, too quick. Let us look at the case of our dear Lance, who had to lose 7 kilos of muscle before the last TdF Prologue. He both lost weight and got faster. Of course you're right, but then you had to go and generalize . . . ;) An interesting question for our weight training gurus: Did he get stronger?

More seriously, almost any cyclist will get faster if they lose weight by riding. We have a great example right here in the PNW of a way overweight Microserf who took up randonneuring and now is one of our fastest LD riders. I don't think he had a training plan originally. He just showed up. That'll do it.

But as I said, you're right. If you're going to have a training plan, it should be tailored to your goals. This season, Stoker and I both have a training plan. We're going to see if we can get that tandem up the road.