Touring - LHT or this bike.....

Hello all,

What does everyone think of this bike-

http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=sutra

it is in the price range of a LHT, so I think comparisons can be made, but what do we think?

This one for $799.99

Novara Randonee on sale now. Just a thought. What I would pick as best bang for the buck anywhere at this time. Great return policy as well.
http://www.rei.com/product/776887

Looks good.
It has road bike gearing.

The REI would be better for touring, but could you stand the color?
I guess I could for the low price.

The REI would be better for touring, but could you stand the color?
I guess I could for the low price.

People ride LHT's all the time.... Much different 10 Wheels? ;)

I like LHT's. They are a very good touring bikes.

I like LHT's. They are a very good touring bike.

Myself as well.... It's just that touring bikes seem to have a color disorder.

This one for $799.99

Novara Randonee on sale now. Just a thought. What I would pick as best bang for the buck anywhere at this time. Great return policy as well.
http://www.rei.com/product/776887

Thanks for the heads up... I don't think I'd get the Novara, just doesn't seem like a great long tour bike... but I agree-- REI IS THE BEST!!! I love that store

Yea, Snot Green, Yuk

Thanks for the heads up... I don't think I'd get the Novara, just doesn't seem like a great long tour bike... but I agree-- REI IS THE BEST!!! I love that store


I rode a Cannondale T-1 4,000 miles last summer. ($2,500 with extras)
The LHT's were better bikes.
The road gearing on the CD T-1 was not the best for touring.

Thanks for the heads up... I don't think I'd get the Novara, just doesn't seem like a great long tour bike... but I agree-- REI IS THE BEST!!! I love that store


Really the only thing about it some tourists might not like are the STI shifters.. I like them but it's all about what you want to ride. Pull them off and sell them for at least $100 on ebay and install bar end shifters if that is what you like. Will end up costing you nothing to upgrade if that is what you consider bar ends.

Just a thought. You'll save enough money for a nice set of Ortliebs if you need panniers and your ready to tour.

Just thinking with my fingers.

I like my LHT a lot and you can't beat surly for customer service. I had a nice rack problem and my email was answered within 20 minutes and a replacement sent to my lbs quickly.

I ride a LHT but the Kona is a great looking bike. I'm not a fan of disc brakes for touring just because of the mechanical advantage you have with rim brakes while carrying a heavy load. If you ride in really muddy conditions, disc brakes make sense as they stay cleaner than rims will. Disc brakes came into vogue on cross and mtb bikes where muddy conditions are the norm. I bought a LHT frame only and did a custom build based on the Koga Miyata World Traveler w/ a few additional upgrades. The Surly frame is solid as I'm sure the Kona is as well. I like the fact that the LHT gives me a lot of tire width options as well as the spare spoke holder and frame pump pin.
And....don't forget the huge community of LHT riders that can help you with any imaginable question with your bike.

They are equally good touring bikes. Comes down to which has the most personal preferences.

Most bang for the buck in a new bike is probably the lowly Windsor Tourist when it's sized right.

Rarely will any stock bike be perfect for any individual. Stuff will need tweaking. Most likely bar height, stem length, gear ratios, saddle. For those outside the body geometry 'sweet spot,' can be cheaper and better to build out a frame than buy stock.

I had my eye on Kona Sutra frame since I'm fan of disc brakes and the frame is $400 on eBay. But later I kind of decided to stick to MTB stuff. But I still have some thinking to do, my touring may not even happen this year :( But Sutra is definitely on my watch list. Or LHT if they have disc version.


I'm not a fan of disc brakes for touring just because of the mechanical advantage you have with rim brakes while carrying a heavy load.

What's the advantage?

Adam

Hello all,

What does everyone think of this bike-

http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=sutra


it is in the price range of a LHT, so I think comparisons can be made, but what do we think?

You can do your own comparisons by looking at the specifications on paper and looking at how they are different.

Some things are obvious about the two bikes: Kona Disc, Surly LHT is rim brakes. There are at least a dozen threads here debating disc vs. rim.

Another obvious thing is some significant differences in geometry. The chainstays and wheelbase of the Kona are significantly shorter than on the Surly LHT. For me (I have big feet, and I like a long wheel base touring bike), they are too short. I wouldn't even consider the Kona as a result.

However, if you test rode the bike, it might work for you.

The Kona Sutra was one of my choices too, but I did not like the discs as well as the sloping top tube. Went with the LHT and I love the bike. Did my first tour this weekend - just back in fact.

I had my eye on Kona Sutra frame since I'm fan of disc brakes and the frame is $400 on eBay. But later I kind of decided to stick to MTB stuff. But I still have some thinking to do, my touring may not even happen this year :( But Sutra is definitely on my watch list. Or LHT if they have disc version.



What's the advantage?

Adam

Rim brakes simply provide a greater lever arm for stopping a rotational mass requiring less pad pressure, less wear. You could also argue that disc's add weight and require special hubs and frame / fork attachments where rim brakes are much more common. Do disc's work? of course they do, but from a touring bike standpoint, I'd rather be trying to find rim brake parts in BFE than disc brake parts. My point isn't a good/bad argument, it's just what I prefer.

Looks good.
It has road bike gearing.

Second that.

This bike comes with fenders, but not the racks?

Personally, I'm not a fan of disk brakes, but you should always get what you want.

This one for $799.99

Novara Randonee on sale now. Just a thought. What I would pick as best bang for the buck anywhere at this time. Great return policy as well.
http://www.rei.com/product/776887

The Randonee has a pretty funky stem set up so any adjustment for length or and such is going to require replacement of more than just a stem. I don't see the "how" in the statement that its better for touring than the Kona. Both bikes are built with touring in mind.

Don't forget about the Soma Saga either. Another nice frameset (some shops offer a complete bike) for touring at a real nice price.

The Randonee has a pretty funky stem set up so any adjustment for length or and such is going to require replacement of more than just a stem. I don't see the "how" in the statement that its better for touring than the Kona. Both bikes are built with touring in mind.

Don't forget about the Soma Saga either. Another nice frameset (some shops offer a complete bike) for touring at a real nice price.

Kona has road gearing 50/39/30 chain rings

Kona has road gearing 50/39/30 chain rings

And a 11-32 rear cassette to the Randonee's 11-28. I'm not a Kona fan or anything...I'd probably opt for a Raleigh Sojourn if I was in that market but the Kona is every bit as good gear wise as the REI product - the differences are minor.

I'm still hoping to build a Soma Saga frame if I decide to go with a dedicated road tourer. I'm going to give the Fargo a shot at it first.

I toured 4,000 miles with the 50/39/30 and the LHT's left me in the dust on all the hills.

I toured 4,000 miles with the 50/39/30 and the LHT's left me in the dust on all the hills.

What was the rear gearing you used? You are pointing to a difference of 4 gear inches. You can't just quote front gearing without considering the rear as well.

What was the rear gearing you used? You are pointing to a difference of 4 gear inches. You can't just quote front gearing without considering the rear as well.

50/39/30 10Speed with 11/32 cassette. The 11 and 12 cogs were usless on the flat roads.

50/39/30 10Speed with 11/32 cassette. The 11 and 12 cogs were usless on the flat roads.

Did you make it up the hill? It sounds like the LHT was just quicker but the OP is looking for a touring bike, something that will work. If you are racing, sure enough your point is valid but to say the Kona isn't a worthy touring bike cause a LHT with different gearing is faster than you on a hill, when both bikes are well within whats considered acceptable gear inch ranges by the ACA seems a bit erroneous. Everyone has a preference; if the rider needs to alter the "fit" it may be tough to do on the Randonee. Is poor fit worse than 4 gear inches when you can change those gear inches pretty easy?

Here is another option to consider - http://www.bgcycles.com/BasicLoadedTouring.html

Check out our Blog for the latest pricing on complete bicycles at:
http://brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/
Regards,
Bruce Gordon


Hello all,

What does everyone think of this bike-

http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=sutra

it is in the price range of a LHT, so I think comparisons can be made, but what do we think?

[QUOTE=bgcycles;10250685]Here is another option to consider - http://www.bgcycles.com/BasicLoadedTouring.html

That is a nice bike too Bruce. Some times thats the problem, too many nice ones!

Gunnar is Waterford's 'budget' line. They are great bikes.

http://gunnarbikes.com/grandtour.php

Rim brakes simply provide a greater lever arm for stopping a rotational mass requiring less pad pressure, less wear. You could also argue that disc's add weight and require special hubs and frame / fork attachments where rim brakes are much more common. Do disc's work? of course they do, but from a touring bike standpoint, I'd rather be trying to find rim brake parts in BFE than disc brake parts. My point isn't a good/bad argument, it's just what I prefer.

But isn't there greater risk of rim damage from rim brakes on long tours, in particular in bad weather? Also, if your wheel goes out of true the brake effectiveness is compromised. These are my main concerns. And disc provide better stopping power in wet conditions.

Adam

Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
I rode a Cannondale T-1 4,000 miles last summer. ($2,500 with extras)
The LHT's were better bikes.
The road gearing on the CD T-1 was not the best for touring.


Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
I toured 4,000 miles with the 50/39/30 and the LHT's left me in the dust on all the hills.

I repalced my wife's cranks on her Cannondale T-800 with a 44/32/22 and an 11-34 cassette, and she will leave LHT's in the dust going uphill. She also rode hers fully loaded across the country, and this summer kept up or ahead of most of the men on the Pacific Coast route--some on LHT's. IMO-- most stock "touring" bikes have too high of gearing to make them work fully loaded in steep hills. I would change the stock gearing on the LHT, REI or the 520,
getting rid of the top end 50 or 48 chainrings. On my 44/32/22 chainring (11 rear cog) I spin out @90 RPM and 26 MPH- Plenty fast for a touring bike. Fit and gearing are critical on a touring bike.

The Randonee has a pretty funky stem set up so any adjustment for length or and such is going to require replacement of more than just a stem. I don't see the "how" in the statement that its better for touring than the Kona. Both bikes are built with touring in mind.

Don't forget about the Soma Saga either. Another nice frameset (some shops offer a complete bike) for touring at a real nice price.

This is a silly statement. I have never had a bicycle off the rack that fit perfect. Stems get changed and should be to get a proper fit.

I also never said anything about one being better than the other... Read above. I only mentioned that at this time the Rondanee was selling for a very nice price and might interest the OP. If he's not interested so be it. I don't have a dog in the hunt.

Check out the new Soma Saga. From my point of view, the Saga is better than the LHT, Kona or Novara. That's because the geometry suits me much better.

I think the jury is out on disc brakes for touring. If I was considering them, I'd wait a year or two and hear more people's reports.

The 30 tooth granny gear would be unacceptable to me on a touring bike. Around town it would be fine, but carrying a big load over a mountain pass is another thing. I want at least a 24-tooth granny, with a big gear in back. There's not much of a down side to having too low of a gear range for touring, but there can be a big down side to having too high. I had to abort a tour once due to knee pain after riding over two passes without a low enough gear.

Cranksets can be changed out. It would be a moderate hassle and expense to change the one on the Kona. The LHT comes with a suitable crankset.

Long chainstays are important to avoid heel strike. I have size 14 feet, and had issues with this while touring on my old Raleigh 10-speed in the 70's. I also think a long wheelbase makes for a more cushiony ride, which is nice on a long tour. Unfortunately, you can't "change out" the frame.

If it were me I'd get the LHT.

But isn't there greater risk of rim damage from rim brakes on long tours, in particular in bad weather? Also, if your wheel goes out of true the brake effectiveness is compromised. These are my main concerns. And disc provide better stopping power in wet conditions.

Adam

If you set off on a long tour with old rims, then you take that risk. In my 35+ years of riding I've never had a rim so out of true that I couldn't brake so I dunno, I guess it could happen but I've never seen it. And your disc's are in the same bad weather as your rims so where is your effectiveness coming from? The assumption you make about effectiveness is that your rotors are cleaner than your rims but outside of that it's two pads compressing the wheel / rotor to stop the wheel, not some kind of new science.
Have fun with your disc's.

Also, if your wheel goes out of true the brake effectiveness is compromised. These are my main concerns. And disc provide better stopping power in wet conditions.

Adam

Disc Brake rotors can go out of true too, I bang mine up all the time downhilling. True, it is less likely to happen in less extreme conditions. Truing a wheel is easier than bending a disc rotor back into place for me. The disc has to be pretty straight to not rub the pads. This is actually the main reason why I would avoid discs on a long tour, I don't want to carry extra disc rotors.

I think the jury is out on disc brakes for touring. If I was considering them, I'd wait a year or two and hear more people's reports.


Nope, the jury is past being 'in', they are back to work at their regular jobs by now. Disc brakes or rim brakes, not that big of a deal. People have toured all over the world on disc-brake equipped bikes. Virtually every bike store in America carries disc brake pads (it's 2010, not 1995), and if you are really worried, the pads are small, flat, and light so just carry some extras. There is too much retro-grouchery on this board some times. Disc brakes are not new, untested, expensive tech anymore.

I bought a 2010 Kona Sutra for my all-purpose bike because I frequently ride in the rain, carry a lot of heavy work gear, and I enjoy knowing that my top tube won't shatter the family jewels. I ride this bike almost every day and I LOVE IT. I wrote an extensive review of the bike here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?593959

Dave Nault posted:
If you set off on a long tour with old rims, then you take that risk. In my 35+ years of riding I've never had a rim so out of true that I couldn't brake so I dunno, I guess it could happen but I've never seen it.

Dave, I generally agree with what you are saying, but last summer on a fully loaded tour, I started busting spokes on my front wheel causing some problems (I've since replaced the wheel set). Three different times it caused my wheel to go out of true and rub my brakes. This was the first time in my 35+ years of riding that I have had any broken spokes. I have also never had a wheel get so badly out of true that I couldn't fix braking by adjusting my cable. I In this situation I had three options: lengthen my cable which probably would still have left me with a little braking force (probaly jerky and not a real good option); release my brakes; or replace the spokes on the side of the road. I choose to release my brakes. The point I want to make is that it was not a big deal because I still had my rear brakes and they worked fine until we reached a shop and could get the spokes replaced and wheel trued. I also carried extra spokes, and if I wasn't so lazy and bike shops were not very far away (50 miles--Pacific Coast Route in Oregon); I would have replaced the spokes myself. What is the probability of both wheels getting so out of true that you wouldn't have any brakes?

Rim or discs-- I don't think it really matters unless crossing Mongolia is on the route:)

Doug, I always follow the saying that "you have to be smarter than your bike" and in your case you obviously were. On the issue of discs or rim brakes, they both have issues and non issues that one has to be prepaired to be able to deal with on the road. It makes no sence to me to read posts claiming one style part is better than another when everything craps out at some point. The key is to know what you have to do just in case it does. Being old school and not a dirt rider, discs were never a consideration for me because I never needed them. I know how to fix my rim brakes and know what to look for and how they're supposed to act. I think that people who go into bike touring thinking some part or another is going to make it fool proof are kidding themselves. My point wasen't to say that I've never had a rim go out of true, I've just never had a situation that I couldn't fix myself or find and get to someone to fix it.

Being a retro grouch, who has a collection of 80's touring bikes (spesh expedition, 620, 720, miyata 1K, panasonic pt-5000) If I were buying a brand-new touring bike it would have a sloping top tube, 26" wheels and (probably hydraulic) disk brakes. I LIKE the old stuff (alot, really), but the new technologies work very very well. there is really no reason that disk brakes should not be considered. I have used disks, cantilevers, linear pulls and dual pivots extensively. Anyone who tells you that you cannot tour on disks is a fool who has bought into some marketing about reliability and field serviceability. Pure hogwash - disks are now ubiquitous.

that said, cantilevers continue to work very well too so there is no reason to buy a bike because the disks are "better" (caveat emptor: if you live in the PNW get the disks...)

Get what you want. in this case, I would get the LHT - but only because i prefer the geometry. the brake choice is irrelevant.

Being a retro grouch, who has a collection of 80's touring bikes (spesh expedition, 620, 720, miyata 1K, panasonic pt-5000) If I were buying a brand-new touring bike it would have a sloping top tube, 26" wheels and (probably hydraulic) disk brakes. I LIKE the old stuff (alot, really), but the new technologies work very very well. there is really no reason that disk brakes should not be considered. I have used disks, cantilevers, linear pulls and dual pivots extensively. Anyone who tells you that you cannot tour on disks is a fool who has bought into some marketing about reliability and field serviceability. Pure hogwash - disks are now ubiquitous.

that said, cantilevers continue to work very well too so there is no reason to buy a bike because the disks are "better" (caveat emptor: if you live in the PNW get the disks...)

.
Get what you want. in this case, I would get the LHT - but only because i prefer the geometry. the brake choice is irrelevant.


I do and don't... Just sayin Posi.

I think if I did go disc though it would be cable type... like the BB7's or similar. Easy to fix and simple as canti brakes for the most part.

Dunno much about the technicalities but the LHT has really bad brakes [compared to calipers at least]. Even after changing the pads to Kool Stop, braking power is not adequate for a loaded bike on 15-18% downhills, which I just did.

I know you need to set up cantilevers properly, so I'll look into that.

Kool Stops squeal like crazy though., Need to sort out that too [already have them toed in but still the noise].

On my commute today I must admit that I was sorry I did not have discs. When it rains like today I very frequently touch my brake pads to my rims to clear the water off so they will respond quickly when/if I need them.

Me thinks this thread has been highjacked into a discussion on rim vs disc brakes. I did a frame up build on my LHT and I use Paul (Neo Retro on the front / Touring Canti on the back) so I don't have any first hand experience with the brakes people talk about when buying the complete. I use Paul because I wanted to try them and I'm happy with the way they work. I have a hard time understanding what the brake problems are with the TO brakes. To me it should be a question of set up and the pad choice but the lever arm is simular to other brakes that seem to work fine.

Seriously, the most important issue to consider is frame geometry. Period. Get the bike that fits you best. I would never buy a Surly because their geometry is all wrong for me -- long top tubes, short head tubes -- but they fit other cyclists perfect. That's the main reason why I would buy a Soma Saga over the LHT or Kona, but your fit needs may be very different than mine. If you don't know which frame would fit you best, than it might be worthwhile to have a fitting done or at least buy from a competent bike shop that will steer you right.

Me thinks this thread has been highjacked into a discussion on rim vs disc brakes....

Seems to happen a lot. ;-) Really, the LHT and the Kona are both great bikes. I looked long and hard at the LHT and even test rode one. While I liked the bike, I thought that the main flaw of the bike was that the geometry resulted in too much trail. I couldn't get it to be stable with no hands at less than about 20mph, and riding hands-free is a big deal for me.

I also believe that as a complete bike, the Kona is a better deal for what you get for your money. The two bikes have a very similar drivetrain (exact same derailleurs), similar brake levers (slightly better on the Kona), similar hubs, wheels, and tires (hubs are a bit better on the LHT). However, for the extra $100, the Kona comes with disc brakes, fenders, and two racks.

I have a LHT and love it (of course). It is a 54cm, so is equipped with 26" wheels. I'm still not sure about them vs. 700s. As soon as I got my Surly home I changed the tires, saddle, seat post, brake pads, and swapped the 26T granny with a 24T. The cassette is a 11-34. I still want to install an in-line travel agent for the rear brakes. I've taken it on several overnight trips and it works well. I keep up fine with a fellow tourer who rides a Specialized Tricross (now that is a whole 'nother story). I'm still tweaking the fit...mostly the Brooks saddle and its tension settings. The bike is comfy and I can cover long distances with it.

My experience level in touring is building rapidly. I toured last year on a Santana Triplet with two stokers for almost 500 miles. This year I crossed the Appalachians on a road bike while pulling a BOB trailer...with that experience I purchased my LHT...because "there ARE a lot of LHTs out there!

Now here are some words on the Sutra. First I would have seriously taken a look at the Sutra had I been aware of it. I have a friend who is very serious about joining me on another TransAm ride in 2012. He just ordered a Sutra. When it arrives (Dec 2010) the shop is replacing the 11-32 cassette with a 11-34, also being replaced is the granny 30t with a 24T. I think the shop may also replace the 50T with a 48T out of necessity. He's getting the Sutra at a great price, and it is a 2011 model. His is a 56cm and sports 700mm wheels.

Working up to the TransAm we will have a whole lot of rides to compare the two bikes. One such ride is east to west on the Katy Trail and back (450 miles or so) in the spring. His is fully outfitted with fenders and racks straight out of the box. My LHT has all of that too, but I had to install racks and fenders (which I already had on hand). Our racks are different, but our panniers are identical. I also sport a handlebar bag, I'm not sure if he is going to put one on. Our two bikes will be almost identical in gearing...the difference is only the wheel sizes. I'm very interested in actual weight differences. I'm not a weight weenie, but after crossing those mountains this summer, I recognize weight or its absence is somewhat important too.

I'll post my findings long term in my trip journal as we ride together. It should be interesting.