Touring - Rivendell Frames

More a question about Rivendell frames, but with touring/daily four season commuting in mind.

Anyone have any experience with the various Rivendell frames (including the Atlantis and Herons). What really separates say, a $1300 US production frame (Atlantis) from a fully custom $2500 frame (Rivendell proper), from a $400 Surly frame?

Once I recover from the dent that my current Surly Long Haul Trucker put in my wallet (long time), I was thinking of getting a Rivendell for a second steed, but the price is intimidating. (Hell, I feel awkward having spent 1500 on a complete bicycle. The whole "don't trust activists that have a new expensive car" thing. But hey, I don't even own a car!)

I am not really even sure why the idea of a Rivendell appeals to me so much, other than that it speaks to my love for the fantasy genre, and they're based in California.

I will be interested to see what responses you get, because I'm now looking at all three. I'd be interested also in your comments on the Surly Long-Haul Trucker, which is considerably less costly. The fact that you are thinking of upgrading already suggests the Surly is less than you want. Please let us know. I don't want to buy the Surly frame and build it up if I'll immediately want to upgrade to a Heron.

Hi,
the Surly LHT and Trek 520 are full blown touring bikes. They are intended to haul tents, bags, and stoves. They are a little slow. There is nothing fancy in the construction.

If you can throw a few more bucks at the situation you find Gunnar/Waterford. Gunnar is made by Waterford, and it's a sweet bike.
They don't make a touring bike, but the Sport can do lite touring.
I have ridden a Sport, and loved it. Waterford bikes are nicer. The construction and design are top notch. All Waterfords are custom, which makes them a very good value. They are great bikes. Their full blown tourer bike is an expedition bike. It's intended to cross continents. Notice the plural. It makes rugged bikes like the 520 or LHT seem wimpy. It's not all that heavy, but it's not designed for speed. They make everything from racers on down, but it's something to be aware of. Rivendell has a great rep. They get great reviews, Jimmy Carter has one. They are quite expensive. The pictures don't do them justice. They are beautiful.I'd love to try one.But I don't think they have a production tourer. And they use 26 inch wheels on some frames. I prefer a 700c wheel. Beyond that there are many other small frame makers. If it was my nickel, I'd go for the Waterford.

>>The fact that you are thinking of upgrading already suggests the Surly is less than you want. Please let us know. I don't want to buy the Surly frame and build it up if I'll immediately want to upgrade to a Heron.<<

Actually I love the Surly (edit: it's a 60cm frame, so sports 700c wheels). My racks (Tubus Duo and Cargo) fit great on it, there is no interlap with the wheel, and my heels don't hit my panniers (Carradice). She's sturdy, can fit fat tires, and the sage green color is pretty too.

I asked about the Rivendell because I commute year round and eventually want to get a second bicycle, which in the short term will probably be a used beater. However, eventually (at least a few years from now, probably more) I'd like to get another bicycle that is of the same/better quality as the Surly. And also, I just wanted to get a bit of information about Rivendells and custom bicycles in general, due to the very fact that the Long Haul Trucker has done me so well so far.

So there you have it - the Surly has my definite seal of approval.

I'm in the same boat, however, I have not yet bought anything. Currently, my rides are an old Chicago Schwinn Vouyager built into a respectible tourer, an a Grant Peterson designed RB-1, and an old Trek 950 MTB built into a 26" wheeled tourer/winter bike. Grant Peterson would go on to start Rivendell after Bridgestone left the U.S. market.

Rivendell makes the Atlantis which has been called one of the very best as far as touring goes, the bigger sizes use 700c wheels and the smaller sizes use 26" wheels. The Rivendell website has all the justification.

My problem was I wanted to replace the Schwinn with something modern - ie., not with 271/4 inch wheels and a rear spacing of at least 130mm, leaning towards 135mm opposed to the Schwinn's 126. But can't afford alimony and the Atlantis if you know what I mean.

I looked real hard at the Surly LHT and the Urbane touring model. Urbane is a Canadian bike maker (http://ucycle.com/bikes/index2.php?cat=urbanite) and their touring bike is respected as well. The Urbane frame and the Surly are both close in price and both TIG welded. For me, 2 strikes against both bikes is the biggest size they come in is 62 cm, and my most comfortable bike, the BStone, is a 64. I'm pretty sure I could get comfortable, the Schwinn is a 62 and I do fine, but I'm not positive.

Finally, I trekked to a dealer who had the Atlantis to take a closer look and my friends, I'm sold. I don't care if it takes another 12 months of scrimping and saving, the Atlantis is the bike for me. The Schwinn will just have to do until then. It's the lugs, the beauty of the bike is beyond description. The ride is amazing, better than my Bstone and it comes in 64 and sizes even bigger.

I would suggest look hard for a bike that you can ride before making the leap.The size thing, I know 2 freaking cm, but it bugged me enough to add into the mix.

As for the difference between an Atlantis and a full Rivendell custom, that's even harder. I've never had a bike built around the great many quirks of my body and I have to believe it's akin to heaven.

Good luck with the LHT

"The fact that you are thinking of upgrading already suggests the Surly is less than you want. Please let us know. I don't want to buy the Surly frame and build it up if I'll immediately want to upgrade to a Heron."

Here's the thing: the Surly Long Haul Trucker is almost a carbon copy of the Rivendell Atlantis, geometry-wise, right down to using 26" wheels on frame sizes below 56cm and 700C wheels above. That's why I got one. If you wrapped an Atlantis and the equivalently sized LHT in duct tape(!), put identical components on them and rode both, I doubt you'd be able to tell which was which. The LHT is cheaper for the following reasons: 1) It's tig-welded in Taiwan rather than hand-brazed in Japan, 2) It's made out of generic double-butted chromoly, compared to the custom tube mix on the Atlantis, 3) It doesn't have beautiful lugs, and 4) It's got a single-tone (quite nice) powdercoat paintjob compared to the two-tone job on the Atlantis.

Other than that, they're virtually the same bike. Since most of a frame's ride qualities come from its geometry rather than its material (despite what the magazines claim), the LHT is a near-perfect Atlantis substitute for those who can't afford a Rivendell.

Photos of my 60cm LHT here: http://photos.yahoo.com/murraylove

My wife and I both have Rivendell Atlantis' and love them. Couldn't be more happy.

The ride is unlike anything we had ever experienced before... the look of the cycle, stunning.

The price... very inexpensive when you consider you're getting a 2-toned, fully lugged, handmade, limited production-just 400 made per year frameset with an Ultegra threaded headset and all the brazed on fixin's for touring for $1300.00?!?! That's dirt cheap in my book.

Yes, you can get a LHT and yes, it might be very similar in the fact that QBP copied Grant's geometry on the Atlantis BUT...

It's not a Rivendell, not an Atlantis, not lugged, not limited to a handmade run of 400 per year, not available with 2 tone paint and not as pretty by a million miles.

Just my opinion... and yes, if I had an extremely limited budget and there was NO way I could EVER save up enough scratch... I'd buy the LHT too but however I'm also a fan of, "Where there's a will... there's a way". So I say-

Buy The Atlantis!! You'll be more happy in the long run.

A helpful post. Thank you. I've been looking at Surly LHT, Heron, Gunnar, Rivendell, Fuji World, etc. -- except that there are none to be tested here in Richmond, Va. Frustrating when everyone says fit is so important and you should test ride as much as possible, and then there is nothing to test. Surly surely is one of the more affordable options.

I've had the same question for a while: LHT vs. Atlantis? What decided it for me is the Rivendelle website (www.rivbike.com (http://www.rivbike.com)). There is a ton of information - articles, advice, tech info. Plus the accessories they carry are top quality including the clothing lines and misc stuff. What really got me was the list of charitable organizations they support. For me, for cycling to be a way of life, it should really be all inclusive. I want to know the company supports some good causes instead of only worrying about the bottom line. I'm sure SURLY is a fine company and is involved in charities and their community - I don't want to belittle them at all. But Rivendell, as a company, based on their website, seems more like the place I want to spend my money.

The price... very inexpensive when you consider you're getting a 2-toned, fully lugged, handmade, limited production-just 400 made per year frameset with an Ultegra threaded headset and all the brazed on fixin's for touring for $1300.00?!?! That's dirt cheap in my book.



uh the Atlantis frame fork and headset costs $2000
http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bicycle_models#product=50-038

uh the Atlantis frame fork and headset costs $2000
http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bicycle_models#product=50-038


Check the date on the post you quoted.

I have a customized Co-Motion Americano Co-Pilot with a head tube extended 2cm that seems to fit me perfectly. I never have had any aches or pains after riding that couldn't be attributed instead to just over doing it. I obviously didn't ride it before I bought it and in fact never rode anything close to it either in fit or in materials. I just bought on faith.

But this isn't any different for someone buying a stock touring bike. Because the model you want and size you need probably won't be in stock. The stock bike also has to be bought on faith.

If low cost is a primary need, buy the stock bike. A custom bike will cost more. Full stop.

If you are tough to fit, get a custom bike. Saving money on a stock bike that doesn't fit is no savings at all.

If you want some particular characteristic, like a lugged frame, disc brake mounts, S&S couplers, a funky color, or a specific material of construction, you might have to go custom.

I think it's useless for me to describe how wonderful it is to ride my custom bike, as I have no means of comparision. I mean it could be really awful versus a stock frame. Few people can be objective. all I can say is that I'd do it again.

Check the date on the post you quoted.

WTF? A five year old post?

WTF? A five year old post?

wah! sorry didn't see that... dang people using the search function!! ;)

A lot of people say that the LHT is an exact copy of the Atlantis geometry, but that doesn't appear to be so. For one thing, the LHT is 26" in the 54cm, and goes to 700C starting at 56cm, whereas the Atlantis is still 26" at 56cm - 700C starts at 58cm. Also, the other dimensions are not identical at all - to take two models with the same wheel size, for example, the 58cm: The top tube on the LHT is 580.1mm, Atlantis 585mm. The chainstay length on the LHT is the same across the board - 460mm. The Atlantis CS is 44cm for the 26" sizes, and 45.5cm on the 700C. BB drop on the LHT is 78cm, Atlantis 80cm. Close, but not exactly "carbon copy". Or am I just splitting hairs here? Maybe someone with more knowledge of frame geometry can educate me - do these differences make any real, well, difference?

Sources:
http://www.rivbike.com/images/static/upload/RBW-GeometryCharts.pdf
http://www.surlybikes.com/longhaul.html

Neil

I have a Rivendell A Homer Hilsen that I like a lot. It's a beautiful bike and fun to ride. It is more plush and versatile than it is fast. It's a great counterpoint to my Litespeed. It is not meant for loaded touring. I have a bit of trouble imagining a bike like this for touring, because it is sure to get beaten up. Every scratch, chip or other compromise in the frame's surface integrity would be a bit of a bummer. When I finally do a tour, I expect to do it on a bike that I won't feel badly about getting knocked around. I still wonder why a more durable metal finish for touring bikes has not been found.

Joel

"Or am I just splitting hairs here? Maybe someone with more knowledge of frame geometry can educate me - do these differences make any real, well, difference?"

Those are real differences, how much they will be picked up on in blind tests is another mater, but all road geometry is pretty standard, so a 1.5 cm difference in CS length is big, unless one wanders off into bikes with extra long stays in the 60s. The problem with the Surly is that the smaller sizes are probably a better design. Being consistent in CS length is marketing.


"What really got me was the list of charitable organizations they support."

Very admirable, but for 1100 dollars in savings you could "do a lot of good" on your own.

The only problem I have with the Riv bikes is that you can buy a lot better bikes for 1500-2500. For 2500 you can get a custom frame from the best in the business. It's a personal mater whether you want to deal direct with a builder, or through an outfit like Riv. At the very least, those prices open up the whole universe of bikes. On the other hand, 400 dollars gets you a lot of frame but it isn't custom and it doesn't have the quality control one should expect from a hand made frame.

I own several Rivendells and love them all!

I bought my Rambouillet as I was looking for a fast bike that I could use for ultralight loaded touring with good tyre clearance and it was one of the few options available. The build quality is excellent, I like the lugs and I feel great zipping alone on tour. It's nice to be comfortable getting out of the saddle on hills and being able to throw the bike from side to side. The long reach (some call them standard reach) caliper brakes were a major spec I was looking for as they allow for 32mm tyres and fenders while still giving excellent stopping power.

I personally think Rivendell's are beautiful bikes, though I know a lot of people have panned the Atlantis for being made overseas. Frankly I don't care where it is made as long as it is solid, however for the price I would almost consider a custom made frame local to me.

My wife and I both have Rivendell Atlantis' and love them. Couldn't be more happy.

The ride is unlike anything we had ever experienced before... the look of the cycle, stunning.

The price... very inexpensive when you consider you're getting a 2-toned, fully lugged, handmade, limited production-just 400 made per year frameset with an Ultegra threaded headset and all the brazed on fixin's for touring for $1300.00?!?! That's dirt cheap in my book.

Yes, you can get a LHT and yes, it might be very similar in the fact that QBP copied Grant's geometry on the Atlantis BUT...

It's not a Rivendell, not an Atlantis, not lugged, not limited to a handmade run of 400 per year, not available with 2 tone paint and not as pretty by a million miles.

Just my opinion... and yes, if I had an extremely limited budget and there was NO way I could EVER save up enough scratch... I'd buy the LHT too but however I'm also a fan of, "Where there's a will... there's a way". So I say-

Buy The Atlantis!! You'll be more happy in the long run.

This makes me love my surly even more....

i have a pristine 99 atlantis, 64 cm, on Ebay 120450807800. check it out

I still wonder why a more durable metal finish for touring bikes has not been found.


It's called a powder coat. It's available on the Surly LHT, or from your local powder coat guy. He'll charge you $75. It'll look great and last forever.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_sZU08lupZdI/SXzC8jqh8cI/AAAAAAAADwM/jqLeNbpIElo/s400/bianchi%20011.jpg

ps That frame cost $75 and is gorgeous. I'm still trying to decide what to do with the $1925 I saved. Perhaps I'll donate some to charity...

It's called a powder coat.
... from your local powder coat guy. He'll charge you $75. It'll look great and last forever.
Where are you finding "local powder coat guys" to do frames for $75?... Everywhere I look, powdercoat jobs start at $250 for single colour.

Where are you finding "local powder coat guys" to do frames for $75?... Everywhere I look, powdercoat jobs start at $250 for single colour.

It depends where you live. People ALWAYS quote the lowest price though. ;) outside DC it was 200, outside tucson AZ, it was about 100. same quality both times but in Tucson, it was a 'batch' job, meaning I had a few small bits and bobs (stem, rack) done at the same time for no addtl. charge. in DC, the stem would have been 50 more.

I view this as a perfect chance to show off my Bleriot!

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/Johnny_Alien/Bleriot/Full.jpg

IMO you can do a helluva lot better than a Rivendell frame. They are just cookie cutter production frames with a hefty price tag. For the same coin you could have a custom frame made with oversized tubing and a much stiffer bottom bracket.

I'm riding a cheapy 1980's japanese frame with touring oriented wheels and people often ask me if it is a Rivendell. It's the poor mans rivendell.

I really think the prices on Rivendell frames are pretty absurd. Your Surly frame is likely just as good as the Rivendell bike. The only difference would be a slightly lighter frame and better tubing.

Lets look at the logistics for a minute...You could buy two Miyata touring bikes for the price of one Rivendell frame.

IMO you can do a helluva lot better than a Rivendell frame. They are just cookie cutter production frames with a hefty price tag. For the same coin you could have a custom frame made with oversized tubing and a much stiffer bottom bracket.

I'm riding a cheapy 1980's japanese frame with touring oriented wheels and people often ask me if it is a Rivendell. It's the poor mans rivendell.

I really think the prices on Rivendell frames are pretty absurd. Your Surly frame is likely just as good as the Rivendell bike. The only difference would be a slightly lighter frame and better tubing.

Lets look at the logistics for a minute...You could buy two Miyata touring bikes for the price of one Rivendell frame.

The Surly LHT has a lot more flex in the BB area than Rivendells. Some of the old bikes are quite nice, but finding one of the few really nice ones in a particular size can be tough.

Rivendell prices are high. If money is a concern, there are other brands. I routinely suggest Gunnar to people, and ride one myself. But if I could afford a bunch of nice bikes, one would be Rivendell.

IMO you can do a helluva lot better than a Rivendell frame. They are just cookie cutter production frames with a hefty price tag. For the same coin you could have a custom frame made with oversized tubing and a much stiffer bottom bracket.

I'm riding a cheapy 1980's japanese frame with touring oriented wheels and people often ask me if it is a Rivendell. It's the poor mans rivendell.

I really think the prices on Rivendell frames are pretty absurd. Your Surly frame is likely just as good as the Rivendell bike. The only difference would be a slightly lighter frame and better tubing.

Lets look at the logistics for a minute...You could buy two Miyata touring bikes for the price of one Rivendell frame.

Rivendell's are expensive, but they are certainly not cookie cutter. The geometries, construction method and tyre clearances set them apart from 99% of the current market. They are certainly retro and a Surly or Gunnar would also be a great bike to have. So I'd only ever recommend a Rivendell to someone who understands the differences between a Riv frame and most other bikes.

So I'd only ever recommend a Rivendell to someone who understands the differences between a Riv frame and most other bikes.

And can/will appreciate the difference. For my part—I think they look great too. If you've got an itch, by all means scratch it.

The only thing that separates Rivendell from the rest is greed.

I still can't believe he can't find someone in a country with 250 million people that won't build his frames for him for the right price.

The only thing that seperates Rivendale from the rest is greed.

I've never heard of a company called Rivendale.... but if you mean Rivendell I can't really comment on their greed as I don't know their expenses or profit margin, there are however obvious differences in the frame geometries and construction methods from most bikes. Can you give us some examples of bikes similar to the Saluki or Rambouillet.

The non Taiwan Rivendell frames are expensive, they will be selling a road frame and fork made by Waterford for $2k soon. However, that's not bad for a waterford frame given that Riv have to include some costs and profit in the price. You could probably get the same frame from
small builder like Circle A Cycles for $1500.

The only thing that separates Rivendell from the rest is greed.

I still can't believe he can't find someone in a country with 250 million people that won't build his frames for him for the right price.

Yeah those guys at Rivendell are all rolling in the money. :rolleyes:

Every scratch, chip or other compromise in the frame's surface integrity would be a bit of a bummer.

Joel

I was getting some chain suck on my (US-made) Bombadil -- chain wedged between chainring and chainstay. It took off some paint and a bit of the metal.

I showed this to Grant at Rivendell, and he just smiled. He recommends just stamping down hard on the pedal and driving the chain off the stay by force; removing a little metal is no biggie. Jay was standing there too and he said there's nothing to worry about with these bikes structurally.

Figure I'll have the bike for 30-40 years, so it's gonna pick up a few dings anyway. (BTW I see people talking about the price: you should divide the price by the number of years the bike can be expected to last -- then the differences seem minimal, given the difference in quality.)

Has anybody here looked at or considered the Bob Jackson "Off-the-Peg" frames?

the End-End for light touring and the World Tour for Loaded:

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/default.php?cPath=28&osCsid=9e7789637cd68445d2cefd38719942a1

if you register and are from the US, VAT will be subtracted from the pricing. I'm a little savings away from an End-End at $675 shipped.

I was getting some chain suck on my (US-made) Bombadil -- chain wedged between chainring and chainstay. It took off some paint and a bit of the metal.

I showed this to Grant at Rivendell, and he just smiled. He recommends just stamping down hard on the pedal and driving the chain off the stay by force; removing a little metal is no biggie. Jay was standing there too and he said there's nothing to worry about with these bikes structurally.

Figure I'll have the bike for 30-40 years, so it's gonna pick up a few dings anyway. (BTW I see people talking about the price: you should divide the price by the number of years the bike can be expected to last -- then the differences seem minimal, given the difference in quality.)


What crankset, with what rings, and what length BB did you get the chain suck? Just want to know as I'm putting one together now.

This was the standard Sugino Riv puts on, with a wide Phil BB, whatever that is -- again all standard for them; check their site. The suck came on the fresh equipment if I wasn't careful to take all the force off the middle ring when shifting to the granny ring. If I had it under any more than minimal force, the chain adhered to the bottom of the middle ring and came up over the stay. Seems to be getting better now that the rings are broken in a bit. You might have less trouble with steel rings if you can get them; mine are Alu.
One of the boys at Riv suggested another solution: take a few links out of the chain. I might have if the problem had continued.
Also, I have a long-cage XT derailleur in the rear; its lever force against the chain might be less than that of the short cage, putting it just under the threshold of force needed to peel the chain away from the bottom of the front chainring in time to keep it from running up the chainstay -- of course this isn't an alternative available for all gearing ranges, but unless you insist on big/big, you might try the short cage.

I'll just add a data point, keeping in mind that pride of ownership can distort recommendations and assessment of other bikes.

I can only tell you that when I got back into cycling in 04, I test rode an absurd number of models. No joy, no fit. I did not try the LHT or a Gunnar, I must add.

The Rivendell philosophy on Fit as described on the site was compelling enough to buy a 60cm Ramboulliet, but the 60 felt a bit too big. I think Grant tends to oversize. So they sent me a 58, allowing me to keep the 58 and 60 "as long as I needed" to determine which was best. The 58 emerged as the correct size.

The fit and ride are simply wonderful. I sense little BB flex. The handling characterstics are mezmering. Hyperbolic? I don't think so.

I do not know what I'd replace it with. I'm sure all the bikes mentioned so far are excellent. A custom Waterford is a temptation, perhaps just to own a Waterford.

So another humble vote for Rivendell. A used Atlantis or Ramb would probably not disappoint. Lastly, I bought my bike to ride -- hard. I don't mind chips but the frame remains in surprisingly good cosmetic condition. I think the paint is softish when new but tends to harden with time.
Dave
Chambersburg, PA
717-263-0128

Phoobo, post some pictures will ya. Despite your chain suck, you have one of the best looking bikes ever made.

I just finished my Gunnar Fastlane. It's a new model that evolved from the Gunnar Crosshairs. It is made for touring/commuting. It has a lower BB drop than the Crosshairs and a longer wheelbase. I think it is rated for 50lbs in the touring sense. I am planning on using a BoB Ibex and a light Pannier in front possibly. I live about 15mins from the Waterford crew and they were wonderfully helpful with the process.

I also here that there is another small steel frame maker in Waterford...shhhh! Ellis is the name. My next Steelie is going to be a Waterford or Ellis Lugged Tour / Ranonneur

http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=home&navcommand=showall

http://www.elliscycles.com/index.html

I've had the same question for a while: LHT vs. Atlantis? What decided it for me is the Rivendelle website (www.rivbike.com (http://www.rivbike.com)). There is a ton of information - articles, advice, tech info. Plus the accessories they carry are top quality including the clothing lines and misc stuff. What really got me was the list of charitable organizations they support. For me, for cycling to be a way of life, it should really be all inclusive. I want to know the company supports some good causes instead of only worrying about the bottom line. I'm sure SURLY is a fine company and is involved in charities and their community - I don't want to belittle them at all. But Rivendell, as a company, based on their website, seems more like the place I want to spend my money.

kinda funny, but I see it the exact opposite way. To me Rivendell has the same clique-ness that makes Roadies so unaproachable, the same pretentiousness that scares people away from anything. My sense of aleination from them is enhanced by the fact that I do own some lycra (and like it, please don't tell Grant), the fact that I hate platform pedals for all but the most relaxed riding, and the fact that while friction shifting has it's place, indexed is much better.

Although what really irks me about Rivendell is how they managed to turn utility cycling into a hobby for the wealthy. You don't need a $2000 frame to have a good 'all-rounder,' it doesn't have to be hand brazed in japan, outfitted with only hand sewn canvas bags and satin finished components. By selling the uber-elite accesories, they create the illusion that you need these things in order to be a utlity cyclist, that once you get your Long-flap you can finally live without your car, that once you get your nitto rack, then you can go camping.

I guess they just seem a little opposed to my 'Just ride your bike already' philosophy.

Get a Mercian. You'll never look back.

fuzz2050 I do see your point, although I think Riv is not different than any other cycling company in that they are trying to sell a product(s). Just because they have nice and expensive frames, bags, racks, etc doesn't mean they are trying to be elitist it means they sell expensive stuff to people who most likely have the money for it. In fact if you look closely most of the parts they spec the bikes with tend to be on the "lower" end side of the spectrum. The guys at Riv just value a nice tweed bag more so than the lightest cassette or electronic shifting. And yes I do have a bag of theirs, and no I couldn't really afford it. But I do like my eggbeaters and wear lycra on occasion.
There really is nothing better than a good debate on a 5 year old thread. The op is probably dead and gone or at least he's probably already worn out the bike he decided to buy.

There really is nothing better than a good debate on a 5 year old thread. The op is probably dead and gone or at least he's probably already worn out the bike he decided to buy.

Unless of course it's a Rivendell:thumb:

My real problem, is that Rivendells look so nice, and cost more than I can ever possibly afford.

I guess they just seem a little opposed to my 'Just ride your bike already' philosophy.

I completely disagree. I think that many of the writings posted in the "read" section of their website embrace a "just ride your bike already" philosophy at its very core. The basic message is that you don't need special clothing or shoes to ride, your bike should be comfortable (wide tires, fenders, more upright position, proper frame size), practical (baskets, racks and bags) and simple to use and repair (steel frames, friction shifting, 8 speed or less).

I recall a short article in the last Rivendell Reader that pointed out the usefulness of old steel mountain bikes from the 1980s as townies or commuters. That's hardly elitist.

In contrast to your statement, I think that many other bike companies (and certainly more than a few bike shops) are opposed to a "just ride your bike already" philosophy with their marketing of racing frames to non-racers and the accompanying shopping list of clothing, shoes, pedal systems, etc.

so is the same feeling extended to companies such as Velo Orange or Heron? I know they aren't exactly the same but I always sort of lumped them together.

FWIW I have never purchased anything from Rivbike but I have from velo orange as it is just around the bend from where I have meetings now and then. I sort of concider it a LBS though it really isn't at all. I just would rather stay out of Performance or that ilk as they don't carry much that suits me.

first off ride what you like. but for my two cents rivendale is like any other luxury items part of the price comes from the name. there like the Maserati of bicycles. To be honest they make cool looking bikes for someone that makes good money and doesn't own a car it could be a cool option. personally if i was gonna spend that much on a machine i would just buy an old used japanese motorcycle (you can easily spend less the 1,000 on one and you don't have to pedal them), I don't think i could ever live with myself after dropping 2 grand on a bike frame when there are still tons of used bicycles around (with lugged steel frames and cool paint jobs) I can tinker with and rebuild to fit whatever i want or desire i have for a bicycle. but i'm alittle diffrent I like making old cheap things work like new again rather then just buying an off the shelf model. I got a '89 trek 400 for free years ago and have spent a considerable amount of money on upgrades but now its a custom machine more custom then any rivendale i would argue.

Not to get to off base here but wasn't part of the the old bridgestone philosophy making bicycles people needed and making them affordable? wasn't that why to RB-1 was such a neat bike? it was just like an italian road racer but 200 dollars cheaper? I do like that they buck trends and perhaps making expensive bikes is the only way they can stay afloat in this current market.

anyway i'm gonna shut up now i suppose if everyone just went after the cheap used bicycles they wouldn't be cheap, (these seems to be happening anyway)

I completely disagree. I think that many of the writings posted in the "read" section of their website embrace a "just ride your bike already" philosophy at its very core. The basic message is that you don't need special clothing or shoes to ride, your bike should be comfortable (wide tires, fenders, more upright position, proper frame size), practical (baskets, racks and bags) and simple to use and repair (steel frames, friction shifting, 8 speed or less).

I recall a short article in the last Rivendell Reader that pointed out the usefulness of old steel mountain bikes from the 1980s as townies or commuters. That's hardly elitist.

In contrast to your statement, I think that many other bike companies (and certainly more than a few bike shops) are opposed to a "just ride your bike already" philosophy with their marketing of racing frames to non-racers and the accompanying shopping list of clothing, shoes, pedal systems, etc.

But my qualm is they take the idea of a 'practical bike' and turn even that into a costly endeavour. Their grocery bag is $40, their 'simple' shifters cost as much as new 10 speed shimano bar ends, a small saddlebag (just big enough for tools and maybe a snack, is $50.

If you had to outfit your commuter from Riv, well, you would have to sell your car.

Yes . . . some of the Riv stuff is high priced . . . but no more so than other retailers selling the same things . . .like Velo-Orange , Jitensha Studio and the like.

They are who they are though . . and need not make any apologies. They have their intended market and if it works for them, it works. They're not there as a public service for budget watching. Don't criticize and apple for not being an orange.

Keep in mind too, they don't do cheap Chinese goods. Many of fabric items are made in a Country that pays a decent wage. We've all been so Walmart-ized we think if someone asks $40 for a bag we're being ripped off.

Their Silver shifters are made from the Suntour tooling that made them originally. I thought they had bought the tooling themselves . . .and I'm sure it wasn't cheap. You can always just buy the pods and get some ST Sprint shifters on eprey on the cheap. I've got about 4-5 pairs and I paid not much for them at a time no one wanted them.

They can't compete with Shimano stuff, as they have legacy tooling as old as dirt . . .so things can be cheaper. Take Shimano hubs . . . the only reason they're so cheap and they've stuck with cup/cones is they have the tooling. Notice no one else makes a new hub with cup/cones? Cartridge bearings are so much more easy for the user . . . . easily replaceable. . . unlike Shimano non replaceable bearing cups. Good parts cost money. . . . and it seems Shimano's shrewd but effective way of making cheap cassette hubs keeps most budget oriented persons riding their hubs, buying their cassettes and on and on. Riv sells the cheap Shimano hubs for their wheels. . . which I think they had to do to keep customers and prices down as Phil Wood FW hubs were their bread and butter in the beginning . When the FW supply dwindled . . . they had to do something besides a $$$ Phil Cassette hub.

It's just a place to shop . . . take it . . or leave it really.

"But my qualm is they take the idea of a 'practical bike' and turn even that into a costly endeavour. Their grocery bag is $40, their 'simple' shifters cost as much as new 10 speed shimano bar ends, a small saddlebag (just big enough for tools and maybe a snack, is $50.

If you had to outfit your commuter from Riv, well, you would have to sell your car."

I think you have a point, but at the end of the day, what should the model be? People that push simplicity of a sort, and quality, it is pretty tough to get price in there also. I'm wearing a 3.50 t-shirt at the moment. I have worn the same brand touring. But how will sales of that support the presence Riv has.

One has to hope an atlantis frame will actually be better on the road than a Nashbar, or satisfy folks who have a vintage craving. One of the things about the old stuff was that it wasn't available in the day. We had one good touring frame place in Toronto, and they were mostly Campi. I saw my first Phil hubs on a road trip to Bufallo NY (Pre CNC billet hubs, hand machined basically the same price as today but gas isn't 35 cents a gallon). There was a lot of cool stuff back then but we either didn't have the money, or the product wasn't available. Real world, who will buy the 7 speed freewheel touring hubs they are selling? I would. 50 years old, and I can sorta afford them. I think he knows his customers.

Just bought a new pick-up and it cost about 20x an atlantis. Cheapest one I could find that would take the family.

Actually Velo Orange has some things for a lot less than riv. Just bought my first Riv order, and their post to Canada is a whole lot better than many places.

"They can't compete with Shimano stuff, as they have legacy tooling as old as dirt . . .so things can be cheaper. Take Shimano hubs . . . the only reason they're so cheap and they've stuck with cup/cones is they have the tooling. Notice no one else makes a new hub with cup/cones? Cartridge bearings are so much more easy for the user . . . . easily replaceable"

I wonder, the tooling to make the actual cups and cones would be pretty cheap, not so sure about cold forging, sounds very expensive that, but they change the shapes a lot...

I just bought some White hubs with cartridge bearings. I doubt they are as easy to service as the shimano. I probably should have got the Phil. I think there is a lot to be said for loose bearings, but it is also another one of those religious bike arguments that persists long after the rest of the tool using world has moved on.