Bicycle Mechanics - Can't find the extra drag.. I'm out of ideas (A bit long)

I just converted my bike from Shimano Ultegra to Campagnolo Record/Chorus. Now, when riding over 19-20mph, I feel that I'm having to work a lot harder to sustain my speed, despite many similarities in the setups. I can't figure it out! Here's the info:

OLD SETUP:
- Ultegra 9sp Shifters
- Dura-Ace rear derailleur
- Ultegra 12-27 9sp cassette
- SRAM PC89R chain
- Rear wheel: Ultegra hub, 32h, 3x, Mavic Open Pro CD rim
- Front wheel: Ultegra hub, 28, radial, Mavic Open Pro CD rim
- Wheelset had 6500 miles on them when I changed to Campy

NEW SETUP:
- Record Carbon 10spd Ergopower shifters
- Chorus carbon rear derailleur
- Chorus 13-26 10sp cassette
- Wipperman/Connex 1008 10sp chain
- New gear and brake cables
- Rear wheel: 2002 Record hub, 32h, 3x, Mavic Open Pro rim
- Front wheel: 2002 Record hub, 32h, 3x, Mavic Open Pro rim
- Wheelset has 3000 miles on it (bought it from a good friend)

Now.. for some odd reason, I feel like I'm working harder to maintain the same speeds with the Campy setup that I did on my old, sloppy, worn out Ultegra setup.

The rear Record hub has a bit more free drag that I would prefer or think is normal, but it is as loose as I can make it before I get play. I rebuilt it a few days ago, which made virtually no difference. The cones and races have a wear line where the bearings sit, but there are no pits, etc. The axle rotates very smoothly, but it feels like it has some drag in there.. I have no idea where - everything looks normal and is clean. The thing that worries me is my 6500-mile Ultegra rear hub has substantially less free drag, and is smooth as glass (I rebuilt it every 1500-2000 miles).

The front hub has very little free drag, is smooth as glass, and is how I expect Record hubs to feel.

I really doubt the drivetrain would have anything to do with this; I am pretty sure it's in the wheelset, and more specifically, the rear wheel. Basically, the only noteable differences between the Campy wheelset and my old Ultegra wheelset are the hubs and the rims. Also, my Ultegra front was 28h radial, Campy is 32h 3x. I can't imagine there would be much difference in weight between Open Pro and Open Pro CD rims, correct? Especially not enough to notice on the bike. A difference in 4 spokes in the front wheel also shouldn't make this big of a difference.

The only other thing I can think of that may be remotely related - I spin all the time, and I spin fast. Usually never under 85, and over 95 whenever I can. I am used to the ratio spacing of the Shimano cassette. I really like the tighter ratios of the Campy cassette, but it definitely has a different feel to it. It has thrown my rhythm off just a bit, but it's getting better with each ride. Do you think it's possible that I'm going down to a gear that's slightly higher than I'm used to and it's wearing me out a bit faster? Maybe enough to notice when pushing hard or maintaining a pace over 20, but not enough to conciously notice? Ok, maybe that's a bit far-fetched, but it could be part of it.

Also, let me say that I have worked in shops as a mechanic since the spring of 1999, and I currently work on long distance bicycle tours for America by Bicycle, so I am pretty familiar with rebuilding hubs, wheelbuilding, mechanical stuff, etc. I have been thinking this over for about a week, and I just can't think of anything else that is causing the problem. I'm entertaining the thought of buying all new cones/races for the hub and replacing everything I can inside it. Who knows..

If you have any ideas, please contribute!

Maybe the bearings tighten up more on the Campi when you tighten the QR. Are you running the same tires on both versions? Check your brakes.

Maybe the bearings tighten up more on the Campi when you tighten the QR. Are you running the same tires on both versions? Check your brakes.

I suppose it's possible. Right now I have the bearings adjusted such that they are just a bit loose before the QR is tightened. I might work with them and see if I can loosen the bearings a small amount more. I'm running the same tires I was before.. I have checked my brakes many times. They are tight, but not rubbing - I can see daylight between the pads and the rim.

I suppose it's possible. Right now I have the bearings adjusted such that they are just a bit loose before the QR is tightened. I might work with them and see if I can loosen the bearings a small amount more. I'm running the same tires I was before.. I have checked my brakes many times. They are tight, but not rubbing - I can see daylight between the pads and the rim.

Oh come now. If your wheels turn freely, then there is no significant drag. Leave them alone. The only significant source of potential drag are the brake pads. If you are sure they are not rubbing, then that eliminates them. If you are not quite sure, then open them up enough to be absolutely sure and test ride it.

Maybe the wind is blowing a little harder this week. Maybe that Campy stuff just isn't as good as the old Shimano stuff you replaced. Or maybe it's all in your head. Are you using any objective evaluation criteria here? An HRM, a power meter, or a 20 minute Time trial at max effort?

...it's all in the head....

Are all your gear ratios identical? Also, remember that over time the grease in all the various bearings will thin down a bit and the bearings will polish up slightly. It could be a situation similar to hiring a new hire car if you own an old car, everything in the new one feels firmer or stiffer.

"Working harder" is subjective. Sometimes I think I'm working harder yet my pulse rate is down. Possibly these changes just makes the bike feel like it's harder. When you get more used to the changes, the feeling might go away.

Al

Oh come now. If your wheels turn freely, then there is no significant drag. Leave them alone. The only significant source of potential drag are the brake pads. If you are sure they are not rubbing, then that eliminates them. If you are not quite sure, then open them up enough to be absolutely sure and test ride it.

Maybe the wind is blowing a little harder this week. Maybe that Campy stuff just isn't as good as the old Shimano stuff you replaced. Or maybe it's all in your head. Are you using any objective evaluation criteria here? An HRM, a power meter, or a 20 minute Time trial at max effort?

I dunno.. I agree, it seems crazy that wheel drag is causing this, but I am not convinced otherwise. When the bike is in the workstand, when pedaled to the same speed, the Record wheelset spins only about 2/3rds of the time that the Ultegra wheel spins. No, in my opinion, the Campy stuff is a lot better that my old Shimano stuff. Party it is because my Shimano stuff was very worn out, but I also like the more defined/sure feel of the Campy components better.

I had a heart rate monitor, but unfortunately, I lost the transmitter strap somewhere, so at the moment I'm not using a HRM. The main thing I've noticed is when going down hills. I don't weigh much - 145lbs dripping wet. I don't go down hills very fast, so I usually find someone bigger than I to tuck in behind until near the bottom of the hill. Once near the bottom, I have enough momentum to pull out of the draft and pass the person I was drafting. Now, with the Campy wheels, I pull out of the draft at the bottom of the hill to go around like I usually do, and I don't go anywhere! I am going the same speed or a bit slower than the rider I was drafting.

I agree, some of it may be in my head, but I seriously think something is off a bit.
.

...it's all in the head....


See above comments.


Are all your gear ratios identical? Also, remember that over time the grease in all the various bearings will thin down a bit and the bearings will polish up slightly. It could be a situation similar to hiring a new hire car if you own an old car, everything in the new one feels firmer or stiffer.

No, the ratios are different -
Shimano - 27-24-21-19-17-15-14-13-12
Campy - 26-23-21-19-18-17-16-15-14-13

I like the Campy gear ratios better, but I do have to wonder if it's enough difference to make me feel abnormally tired, even though I can't feel it as I'm riding. I agree, the grease may loosen up after several more rides, however, before I rebuilt the hub, the grease was fairly thin and dirty, and it felt similar to now with fresh grease. We'll see.
.

"Working harder" is subjective. Sometimes I think I'm working harder yet my pulse rate is down. Possibly these changes just makes the bike feel like it's harder. When you get more used to the changes, the feeling might go away.

Al

That's very true - it may just be me getting used to slightly different gearing, etc, but read my first comments in this reply about hills. Just seems a bit odd to me. Time will tell, I guess.

When it comes to equippment that you are replacing after as many miles as you have I would think that you should expect it to feel different. 6500 mi Geez laweez. As far as you are concerned your old set up is what a bike feels like. You have changed virtually everything. Equippment that relys on people power, i.e. bikes, sports clubs, gloves, musical instruments are fickle at best. I've seen people with crap out ride people with nice equip and I've seen people who had crap upgrade and not do any better.

Suffice it to say I would not spend any money on the problem until you have put 10% of the number of miles on the new set up than what you had on the old set up. Or, have a fight wiht your wife/significant other, then go on a ride and see if you think about anything that even rhymes with hubs.

Keep your dough, get comfy with new stuff.

When it comes to equippment that you are replacing after as many miles as you have I would think that you should expect it to feel different. 6500 mi Geez laweez. As far as you are concerned your old set up is what a bike feels like. You have changed virtually everything. Equippment that relys on people power, i.e. bikes, sports clubs, gloves, musical instruments are fickle at best. I've seen people with crap out ride people with nice equip and I've seen people who had crap upgrade and not do any better.

Suffice it to say I would not spend any money on the problem until you have put 10% of the number of miles on the new set up than what you had on the old set up. Or, have a fight wiht your wife/significant other, then go on a ride and see if you think about anything that even rhymes with hubs.

Keep your dough, get comfy with new stuff.

Good points.. I do plan on riding it for a while. Monday I leave to start wrenching for 8 more weeks of bicycle tours. I get to ride just about every other day, so I'll get to log plenty more miles. I may end up spending $10 for cones, races, etc for the rear hub, but I won't be spending too much on it for a while. Gotta get back to work on my Mustang this winter. I am curious to see how it feels after 60-80 miles. So far, I've only ridden it 28mile max due to time limitations. Who knows... thanks for the input.

Right now I have the bearings adjusted such that they are just a bit loose before the QR is tightened. I might work with them and see if I can loosen the bearings a small amount more.You should be able to adjust the tolerance on bearings while the QR skewer is tightened down. That's a nice feature of the Campy hubs that takes the guess work out adjusting the looseness of the bearings

Maybe its just those extra krispy kremes... ;)

Seriously though, it sounds odd. I don't know how you do your hub rebuilding, but I like to do my rebuilds with the qr skewer holding the axle to my vice, and fully compressed. I crank the qr down on the axle with the same force I'd use to put it on the bike. Then when I adjust the hubs I work them tighter until I stop feeling play, then I pull the qr lever up to about 45 degrees and check for play. If there is no play, I close the qr lever, I loosen it all back up, and start working it tighter again, aiming to hit the point where it has play when the lever is at 45 degrees, and no play when its fully down. Its a small spot, but working with the axle compressed on the stand seems to make it easier to find that sweet spot. Maybe the campies just have a very narrow sweet spot. I'm self taught on this kind of stuff, so I'm not sure how a pro would do it, but just thought I'd throw in my one cent.

peace,
sam

In looking up your setup, I notice that the front hubs vary in size. Perhaps this is a factor? Also, shape and build quality matters. Maybe that Record stuff is defective. Just a thought. Without pictures or metrics, it's hard to tell.

Front wheel: Ultegra hub, 28,
Front wheel: 2002 Record hub, 32h

Maybe its just those extra krispy kremes... ;)

Seriously though, it sounds odd. I don't know how you do your hub rebuilding, but I like to do my rebuilds with the qr skewer holding the axle to my vice, and fully compressed. I crank the qr down on the axle with the same force I'd use to put it on the bike. Then when I adjust the hubs I work them tighter until I stop feeling play, then I pull the qr lever up to about 45 degrees and check for play. If there is no play, I close the qr lever, I loosen it all back up, and start working it tighter again, aiming to hit the point where it has play when the lever is at 45 degrees, and no play when its fully down. Its a small spot, but working with the axle compressed on the stand seems to make it easier to find that sweet spot. Maybe the campies just have a very narrow sweet spot. I'm self taught on this kind of stuff, so I'm not sure how a pro would do it, but just thought I'd throw in my one cent.

peace,
sam

With the Campy hubs, I can adjust the bearing preoad while the wheel is clamped into the rear dropouts. I have it at the loosest point without having play. Hub feels a little bit looser, but it's still pretty tight, or at least I think so. After doing some research, I have learned that the Campy hubs are designed for a thin grease. So that's part of the problem - I am using some fairly thin, but very tacky grease in there. I need to find something a little lighter.

.

In looking up your setup, I notice that the front hubs vary in size. Perhaps this is a factor? Also, shape and build quality matters. Maybe that Record stuff is defective. Just a thought. Without pictures or metrics, it's hard to tell.

Front wheel: Ultegra hub, 28,
Front wheel: 2002 Record hub, 32h

Yeah, I had wondered about that as well. The 32h Campy wheel is a bit heavier than the old 28h Ultegra wheel, but not by much. I doubt it's enough to matter. The rear hub drag seems to be the big difference, so that's what I'm focusing on at the moment.

I think you need to let the bearings wear in a little bit. I know that when I replaced the bearings on my Ferrari (they are also made by Campagnolo), it took about 2 weeks before it felt loose as it had been before.

I think you need to let the bearings wear in a little bit. I know that when I replaced the bearings on my Ferrari (they are also made by Campagnolo), it took about 2 weeks before it felt loose as it had been before.

OK - I admit it. I'm jealous.

Perhaps you peaked last week? You're riding at higher elevation? How long did it take you to do the build? Did you ride in the meantime? Using the same tubes? Seat position changed? Crank length different? Pedals dragging? Too much tension on the chain?

Just thoughts.