Touring - Mounting Systems: Ortlieb vs. Arkel vs. Rixen Kraul

Hi all,

Here are the rules. I am looking for the best mounting system for heavy use through Asia on a 6 month self-supported tour through all sorts of terrain. All of the above panniers are very different but I just want to talk about mounting systems here.

Ortlieb is tried and tested and a lot of people like them. However, there are some complaints that if they DO break out in the middle of nowhere then it is difficult to get the highly specialized parts you would need.

Arkel is another top brand but I would like you to consider other bungy-cord based systems as well such as Axoim or Long Peak. I particularly like Axoim because it is very simple. Metal hooks that can be easily replaced with local things and a simple bungy cord available anywhere. Arkels are a lot more complicated but could still be used should the complex locking mechanism fail so I have included them in the "simple" category.

Rixen Kraul I know very little about. They seem to be a bit of a cross between Ortliebs and bungy type systems. Are they reliable for the long haul in the third-world? Does the locking system really work as well as others? Specifically I am considering these Pacific Outdoors Panniers or one of the similar ones from the same company. I really like that their panniers are dry bags like ortlieb but also have a really nice compression system and internally organized pockets. The design looks really well thought out but they are a new pannier maker so I am not sure if they will be reliable?
http://www.rei.com/product/784875
Here is the companies main page with a lot more information:
http://www.pacoutdoor.com/splash_pdfs/POE_1_new.pdf

Let the arguments commence!

Rixen Kraul fittings? not so fond.

the arkel quick release is an odd one, maybe it is secure on the road, i didn't like the not sure security of them clipping onto the racks when checking them out at the bike shop.

Ortlieb? Yeah. get one set of rack attachements and bring them in your repair kit, its sensible and pack up to nothing. in a pinch, can always lace an ortlieb to a metal hook or any other kludge fix just like any other pannier, or even just lash it to the rack.



A swiss army knife, 10 feet of paracord, a little bit of ductape and you're golden.

i wouldn't worry about it too much.

cheers!

Ortlieb is tried and tested. Kinda says it all.

zepp, you seem to like to start arguments and criticism... what happened to the other thread you started, and how did the porn link come into any relation to the topic?

Hi i run Ortlieb Bikepacker plus for the rear and Frontroller plus on the front. They have the QL2 mount system and I run 2 sets of mount hooks top and bottom. This give the bags a more secure grip on the rack and I figure if a top hook fails I will have 3 more hanging on to the rack and if a lower hook fails I will still have another one holding the lower bag secure too.
Cheers Steve

Thats a great idea! I had never considered using 4 mounting hooks but I dont see why not!

R&K mounts are fine for extended heavy touring. You can add extra hooks to the rail. I would pack an extra hook, locking tab and lower anti-sway hook.
The locking part of the R&K mount does come away as a separate part if you pull hard. This has no effect on the hook part and you can run the system with one or two of the locking parts missing.
With any rail-mounted hardware, you can have spare hooks made up in metal from any local Mr Fixit metalworker.
They are a smidgen slower and more fiddly to remove than ortleib but far superior to any velco or hook and elastic.

Hi all,

Here are the rules. I am looking for the best mounting system for heavy use through Asia on a 6 month self-supported tour through all sorts of terrain. All of the above panniers are very different but I just want to talk about mounting systems here.

Ortlieb is tried and tested and a lot of people like them. However, there are some complaints that if they DO break out in the middle of nowhere then it is difficult to get the highly specialized parts you would need.

Arkel is another top brand but I would like you to consider other bungy-cord based systems as well such as Axoim or Long Peak. I particularly like Axoim because it is very simple. Metal hooks that can be easily replaced with local things and a simple bungy cord available anywhere. Arkels are a lot more complicated but could still be used should the complex locking mechanism fail so I have included them in the "simple" category.

Rixen Kraul I know very little about. They seem to be a bit of a cross between Ortliebs and bungy type systems. Are they reliable for the long haul in the third-world? Does the locking system really work as well as others? Specifically I am considering these Pacific Outdoors Panniers or one of the similar ones from the same company. I really like that their panniers are dry bags like ortlieb but also have a really nice compression system and internally organized pockets. The design looks really well thought out but they are a new pannier maker so I am not sure if they will be reliable?
http://www.rei.com/product/784875
Here is the companies main page with a lot more information:
http://www.pacoutdoor.com/splash_pdfs/POE_1_new.pdf

Let the arguments commence!

I can tell you first hand that the Axoim bags fit Axiom racks like crap. Go figure... The diagonal brace on the rear rack doesnot allow for the rubber wedgie keeper to be rotated to lock on the panniers. While the attachment is dirt simple, the same could be said for the engineer who came up with this design.

Long ago I left bungee attachement and complicated and vulnerable panniers designs far behind. The simple five hook [3 top and 2 bottom] and one velcro strap used in the Robert Beckman Designs Panniers have served me well these last 25+ years on and off pavement including the Divide Ride. No matter what the load the panniers remain in place without shifting until you release the strap. http://www.coinet.com/~beckman/index.html (http://www.coinet.com/%7Ebeckman/index.html)

I recommended the panniers to a friend as he began the Trans Am. He followed with Prudhoe Bay to Panama with the remainder of South America in progress. He has been very pleased with the pannier performance. He is a retired aerospace engineer who assessed the durability of materials for a living.

Hi all,

Here are the rules. I am looking for the best mounting system for heavy use through Asia on a 6 month self-supported tour through all sorts of terrain. All of the above panniers are very different but I just want to talk about mounting systems here.

Ortlieb is tried and tested and a lot of people like them. However, there are some complaints that if they DO break out in the middle of nowhere then it is difficult to get the highly specialized parts you would need.

Arkel is another top brand but I would like you to consider other bungy-cord based systems as well such as Axoim or Long Peak. I particularly like Axoim because it is very simple. Metal hooks that can be easily replaced with local things and a simple bungy cord available anywhere. Arkels are a lot more complicated but could still be used should the complex locking mechanism fail so I have included them in the "simple" category.

Rixen Kraul I know very little about. They seem to be a bit of a cross between Ortliebs and bungy type systems. Are they reliable for the long haul in the third-world? Does the locking system really work as well as others? Specifically I am considering these Pacific Outdoors Panniers or one of the similar ones from the same company. I really like that their panniers are dry bags like ortlieb but also have a really nice compression system and internally organized pockets. The design looks really well thought out but they are a new pannier maker so I am not sure if they will be reliable?
http://www.rei.com/product/784875
Here is the companies main page with a lot more information:
http://www.pacoutdoor.com/splash_pdfs/POE_1_new.pdf

Let the arguments commence!

For any modern bag, breaking a mount in the middle of no where would be problematic. However Mcgyvering a new mount wouldn't be all that hard. It certainly wouldn't mean the end of a tour.

Let's start with the Axiom system. The hooks and bungee are very old school. They work but if your ride includes any rough roads, it's pretty easy to bounce the bag up enough so that the hooks can clear the rack and the bag can fall off. I've had it happen far too much (once is enough and I've done it far more than once:twitchy:) to trust that mounting system. Even adding a locking mechanism isn't going to make it all that much better and you have to turn the lock by hand...just too much trouble. The bungee can come off too. That's not as bad as the bag flying off the bike but annoying enough.

I have the Rixen Kaul system

http://media.rei.com/media/tt/9b526287-db62-4fa8-8689-eb6038deeb59.jpg

on a pair of commuting panniers. I even modified the lower mount like the ones in the picture above. It's rugged, stable and secure. The only issue is that the upper mounts have to be engaged by hand. Not a bother but the bags don't have that many features that would justify the $60 greater cost than Ortlieb Classic Rollers.

The mounts on the Ortliebs

http://media.rei.com/media/cc/6f6a90db-6537-4afa-bcc6-d1b3f19eef5b.jpg

I consider to be the ultimate in pannier mounts. The upper mounts are about as elegant as you can get when it comes to mounting systems. The weight of the bag on the strap opens the hook and releasing the strap springs the hook closed. You can remove the bag without even unloading the rack if you have stuff on the rear deck. The lower hook may slip out at time (more likely on the mount like the Rixen Kaul) but the upper mount won't come off on any kind of terrain. I've even bunny hopped the bags over small cracks in the Steamboat Trace Trail...not an easy thing to do with a 90 lb bike and you don't get a lot of height:innocent:...without problems. The upper mounts even allow for much more...and easier...fore/aft adjustment to fit on the rack than any other bag.

And, at $165 a pair for the rears, they are a bargain compared to the Pacific Outdoor bags.

Does anyone have first hand experience with the Pacific Outdoor panniers? I'd like to know what they thought of it outside of the price.

I agree with bikeguru, add more top clips..For the money you shell out to buy Ortliebs, the mounting rail that the top clips attach to should be more robust..no excuses.
Neil Gunton over on CGOB has a very comprehensive review showing the failure points for Ortlieb mounting system (new vs old version). (http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/reviews/board/message/?o=RrzKj&thread_id=38352&v=2R&page=1&nested=0) I'm going to make modifications to my Ortliebs so that I don't have those problems, just haven't worked it all out yet.....

I have the Ortlieb as well as Arkel and the older Carradice system. Here are my experiences.

Ortlieb: modular, easy to adjust fittings, easy to replace parts if you had them with you. I do not like the plastic top rail, which has tended to warp or curve over time. Sometimes they can look clipped on but the lower portion of the clamps is not closed. Bags themselves (Classics) are great, simple and totall waterproof.

Arkel: wish that the bags were waterproof but the mounts are very solid. There is a new version as of last year that is easier to get on and off. Like the solid aluminum top rail. Easy to adjust. Easy to clip on. The locking cams interfere with some type of racks, so try before you buy. The bungee cord keeps them on the rack even if cam is not totally closed. Arkel construction (stitching, materials, zippers) is really great as is customer services. Just wish all the bags were waterproof.

Carradice (older system, before R&K): aluminum top rail, easy to adjust, clip on very securely on the top. Bottom is similar to Ortlieb to adjust. Canvas bags are holding up great and are waterproof to this point. Easy to clip on. Works better on larger diameter rack tubes. Nice retro look, should be easy to repair.

If the Ortlieb QL system had an aluminum rack, it would be perfect. Otherwise, heavy loads could use a little more structure.

Also have a look at the Crazy Guy on a Bike Forum where it has a review section. There's a very interesting critical review of the Ortlieb mounting system.

Carradice (older system, before R&K): aluminum top rail, easy to adjust, clip on very securely on the top. Bottom is similar to Ortlieb to adjust. Canvas bags are holding up great and are waterproof to this point. Easy to clip on. Works better on larger diameter rack tubes. Nice retro look, should be easy to repair.



Thanks for the info! I've been considering the Super C panniers for my next set.

Carradice (older system, before R&K): aluminum top rail, easy to adjust, clip on very securely on the top. Bottom is similar to Ortlieb to adjust. Canvas bags are holding up great and are waterproof to this point. Easy to clip on. Works better on larger diameter rack tubes. Nice retro look, should be easy to repair.



Thanks for the info! I've been considering the Super C panniers for my next set.

The Arkel bags cam system works very well and is very secure. It clamps onto the rack rather than just resting on the weight of the pannier. I've never had a problem. There are times when stealth camping where the ability to get your panniers off quickly, throw them behind a bush, then hump your bike up a hill or toss it over a fence (on the side of a road for example, public land, but still fenced) is a very, very nice asset. I don't think you have that option with jerry built things.

Really though, you're almost asking people which flavor of ice cream is best. Do the research, try out what you can, and make the decision based on what you want. Arkel, Ortlieb, Sakkit, and the other high end ones all have perfectly great attachment mechanisms, and they all claim to be the best.

The Arkel bags cam system works very well and is very secure. It clamps onto the rack rather than just resting on the weight of the pannier. I've never had a problem. There are times when stealth camping where the ability to get your panniers off quickly, throw them behind a bush, then hump your bike up a hill or toss it over a fence (on the side of a road for example, public land, but still fenced) is a very, very nice asset. I don't think you have that option with jerry built things.


Do you mean jury rigged? If so, the Rixen Kaul and the Ortlieb bags aren't jury rigged. They have a very good design with the Ortliebs being easier to use and a better design. Grab the bag strap and lift up. The entire bag is off the bike is seconds. It can be easily removed without removing items on the rack and it can also be installed without removing items on the rack. I've used bags with hooks and bungees like the Arkel (without the camlock) and the Ortlieb systems is far superior...especially if you need to remove the bags quickly.

If you really mean jerry built as in German that is an offensive slur.

Do you mean jury rigged?

If you really mean jerry built as in German that is an offensive slur.


No, I mean jerry built in regards to the suggestions that he construct or remedy lesser quality attachment mechanisms, sorry for the confusion. But thank you for the German lesson :)

Anyhow, they (jerry built and jury rigged) are two different terms that mean roughly the same thing with different connotations. Voila: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/jerry.html

Cyccommute - do you have the Axiom bags or the Axiom system that includes the center lock-block, or are you referencing simple hook and bungee systems? I have the lock-block on some of my bags and that thing makes simple hook and bungee bags very secure. I would be surprised to see those bags come off my bike without some serious crash.




Let's start with the Axiom system. The hooks and bungee are very old school. They work but if your ride includes any rough roads, it's pretty easy to bounce the bag up enough so that the hooks can clear the rack and the bag can fall off. I've had it happen far too much (once is enough and I've done it far more than once:twitchy:) to trust that mounting system. Even adding a locking mechanism isn't going to make it all that much better and you have to turn the lock by hand...just too much trouble. The bungee can come off too. That's not as bad as the bag flying off the bike but annoying enough.

I've used bags with hooks and bungees like the Arkel (without the camlock) and the Ortlieb systems is far superior...especially if you need to remove the bags quickly.

The Arkel system isn't like other hooks and bungees.

The Arkel system isn't like other hooks and bungees.

The only difference is the addition of a lock block. You still have to hook the hook to the lower part of the rack, stretch the bungee (and bag) up so that the hooks can clear the top of the rack and lower the bag in place. Then you have to turn the lock block into place. If you want to take the bags off with stuff on the rack, you have to remove the rack mounted gear or fish around to find the lock block to turn it.

Compare that with the Ortlieb system. Pull up on the handle and the catch mechanism is opened. Slide the bag into place with the lower hook engaging the rack and the hooks engaging the upper part of the rack. Let go of the handle and the whole system is secure as the latch mechanism springs back into place. Since the handles are on the outside of the bag (to keep them out of the wheel), it's a simple matter to grab the handle and release the bag.

A lock block just isn't enough to convince me that the Arkel system is superior to the Ortlieb system nor that it's all that much better than any other hook and bungee system.

No, I mean jerry built in regards to the suggestions that he construct or remedy lesser quality attachment mechanisms, sorry for the confusion. But thank you for the German lesson :)


Learn something every day:o Never heard the term. Jury rigged, sure...and I use it all the time.

Me too.....

Jerry built

Meaning
Built in a makeshift and insubstantial manner.

Origin
The phrase has been around since at least 1869, when it was defined in the Lonsdale Glossary:
"Jerry-built, slightly, or unsubstantially built."

And to complete the lesson:

Jury rigging refers to makeshift repairs or temporary contrivances, made with only the tools and materials that happen to be on hand. Originally a nautical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautical) term, on sailing ships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_ship) a jury rig is a replacement mast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast_%28sailing%29) and yards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yardarm) improvised in case of damage or loss of the original mast.

The only difference is the addition of a lock block. You still have to hook the hook to the lower part of the rack, stretch the bungee (and bag) up so that the hooks can clear the top of the rack and lower the bag in place. Then you have to turn the lock block into place. If you want to take the bags off with stuff on the rack, you have to remove the rack mounted gear or fish around to find the lock block to turn it.

Compare that with the Ortlieb system. Pull up on the handle and the catch mechanism is opened. Slide the bag into place with the lower hook engaging the rack and the hooks engaging the upper part of the rack. Let go of the handle and the whole system is secure as the latch mechanism springs back into place. Since the handles are on the outside of the bag (to keep them out of the wheel), it's a simple matter to grab the handle and release the bag.

A lock block just isn't enough to convince me that the Arkel system is superior to the Ortlieb system nor that it's all that much better than any other hook and bungee system.

It sounds like you're perhaps describing an older version of the Arkel mounting system. I just got a set of their GT bags, and they have a Cam-Lock system that rotates to secure the hooks in place on top. You can remove the bags by simply pulling up on a strap to disengage the cams, kind of like the Ortlieb system. You can see it in action on Arkel's website:

http://www.arkel-od.com/tips/installing.asp

It looks nice in theory, but when I tried mounting the bags for the first time on Tubus racks (Tara and Cargo), I found that the way the cams rotate seems to require that there is some space between the hooks and the vertical struts on the racks. You can see why this would be on the little looping video on the link to their site above. To me, while it is quite clever, it is also kind of a non-optimal way to do it, because I ended up having to move the hooks inward and together quite a bit just in order to avoid interference from the rack struts. Or maybe I was doing it wrong, I haven't tried again since that first time (that was on my test ride of the Co-Motion Americano back in December - I'm going to pick up my new bike tomorrow, so when I get it back home I'll be able to do more in-depth experimenting with the Arkels and Ortliebs).

With respect to comparing between the Arkel and Ortlieb systems, the impression I get is that the big plus with the Arkels is that the rail and hooks are all metal. This will probably be a bit more robust that the plastic mount on the Ortliebs. However, the Arkels don't appear to have any means to keep the bottom from swinging outward - all there is is that bungee, which creates some downward tension on the hooks. The Ortlieb system seems a little better there, with the bottom hooks that actually engage the rack struts and keep everything solidly in place. But they are plastic, and thus prone to failure over the long run, or if you don't adjust everything so that it's snugly in place.

What people do to ameliorate the lack of robustness with the plastic fittings on the Ortliebs is to simply attach additional hooks, both above and below. So you can put an extra pair of hooks on the top rail, to spread out the load, and also put one or more extra hooks on the lower oval rails. This both provides a little redundancy, and also allows for fitting the pannier much more securely to the rack (it can take a bit of experimentation to find the optimal position and angles for those hooks, but once you have everything tightened down they don't tend to shift).

On longer tours I would certainly take along some spares for the Ortliebs, including top and bottom hooks, and nuts and bolts.

Currently I have to admit that I'm preferring the Ortliebs, much to my chagrin since I was really hoping that the Arkels would "speak" to me once I got them. For the longest time I've used Ortliebs, but been very curious about the renowned quality, and different packing style of the Arkel panniers. Now I've had a chance to look at them in the flesh, and do some experimental packing, I find myself somewhat preferring the simplicity of the large single compartment of the rolltop Ortliebs. My viewpoint may change, after all I haven't actually gone on tour with the Arkels yet, of course. Another factor that I think is tipping me toward the Ortliebs is the 100% waterproof aspect. Even though I can completely grok where Arkel is coming from:

http://www.arkel-od.com/tips/waterproof.asp

Even though I agree with all that, I still just find myself instinctively preferring the "default waterproofness" of the Ortliebs. So when I'm riding along, I really like not having to stop and put on waterproof covers when I see a big storm coming up ahead. To me, there's no point in "water resistant" - either something is waterproof, or else stuff inside is gonna get wet eventually. It's true that if you open up the Ortliebs in the rain then stuff inside will get wet anyway, but that is avoidable by finding shelter before you open the bags, and keeping your wet gear strategically outside the bags and easily accessible, so that you basically don't have to open the bags in the pouring rain. And "swamp bag" can be avoided by keeping dirty and wet clothing separate, in its own waterproof stuff sacks, or outside until you can find a place to dry off. And if the bags get punctured, then you should have a repair kit - holes can be fixed. All in all, I think I really appreciate the simplicity of the "one big bag" thing, combined with the 100% waterproofness of the rolltop style. I also think I like the "Plus" cordura fabric over the "Classic" PVC, both because the Plus is thinner and more flexible, and easier to roll up, and it's also lighter. I like being able to leave the bags under the vestibule and find them sitting on their side in a puddle in the morning after heavy rain, but still know that everything inside will be safe and dry.

As for organization, I will be trying out the silnylon stuff sacks - they are both waterproof, and also slippery, which makes them easier to slide in and out of the panniers.

That said, I really do like the workmanship on the Arkels - they are high quality bags, no doubt about it. My thoughts above are not really conclusions that are intended to say that "Ortlieb are better", but rather that's just where my thoughts are currently. It's quite possible I'm just liking the Ortliebs because that's what I'm used to. I can easily see someone else liking the Arkels better, because of the many features and overall quality of build. Yes, zips can fail, but those monster YKK zippers on the Arkels won't be failing any time soon, I think. It really comes down to what you prefer - lots of pockets and zips and features, and having to use rain covers, or simplicity, light weight and 100% waterproofness, and less robust plastic mounts and no easy access pockets. It just depends on what you want. The biggest plus of the Arkels, in my view, is that they are hand-made by a small company in Canada that has put an enormous amount of thought into the design over the years. There are just so many little features that make you smile when you see them. I wish Ortlieb would put similar thought into their handlebar bag mount design, which intensely irritates me due to its "single use" cable clamping system.

Neil

p.s. Why on earth is this post coming out so narrow? I have no idea.

It sounds like you're perhaps describing an older version of the Arkel mounting system. I just got a set of their GT bags, and they have a Cam-Lock system that rotates to secure the hooks in place on top. You can remove the bags by simply pulling up on a strap to disengage the cams, kind of like the Ortlieb system. You can see it in action on Arkel's website:

http://www.arkel-od.com/tips/installing.asp

It looks nice in theory, but when I tried mounting the bags for the first time on Tubus racks (Tara and Cargo), I found that the way the cams rotate seems to require that there is some space between the hooks and the vertical struts on the racks.

All of the mounts that I've seen were the rotating block/hook/bungee system. The new one looks a little better but I can see why you'd have problems with the sideways movement of the new lock system. The rack they use for an example doesn't have struts at the deck which is not the norm. The Ortlieb is just a bit more elegant.

The lower mount is particularly nice. You can see in figure 2 what I have an objection to with the hook and bungee mounts. You have to balance the bike, use two hands to hook the bungee and then pull up so that the hooks can clear the deck. Ortliebs system just drops in place.

I see little problem with the Ortlieb plastic mounts. Nylon is pretty tough stuff. I've seen little problem with mine, but, granted, they are a bit older. I've used them for training for tours...6 to 12 weeks of lugging around a touring load...and never seen any issues.

I have some experience with Arkel after riding a 960 mile tour this past summer in rainy Washington State. For this two week trip I used two GT-18 front panniers mounted to a Nitto Campee rear rack, an Arkel Sm Bar Bag mounted on a second lower stem and an Arkel Tailrider. I'll address some of the points mentioned in preceeding threads.

* The full aluminum Arkel Cam-Lock system is extremely secure even with a small bungee hook anchoring the bottom. No bouncing or problems over rough roads and gravel.

* The initial setting of the Cam-lock will most likely need to be adjusted inward if a verticle post on your rack interfers. This is not a problem to adjust (one set screw) and doesn't effect the integretity of the mounting on your rack. I adjusted both for easy of mounting and maximum heel clearance.

* The rain covers work! We had at least 5 days of rain and nothing got wet. They are easy to put on and take off while the panniers are mounted and can be easily stored in the outter mesh webbing on each bag.

* I did have a failure on one of the Cam-Locks, a spring broke or became dislodged. The cam-Lock still held in place, I just needed to push it in tight and the other cam-lock held the bag securily in place. BTW, Arkel replaced the entire mechanism both sides for free when I returned, no questions asked.

* The pockets are really handy for orgainizing and finding things quickly. I've no experience with Ortlieb, but really like the zippered pockets.

* The zippers are heavy duty and the fabric is durable, no cuts or tears plus I use the panniers for commuting to work. Red rocks!

* If I have to take a dig, it would be on the Sm Bar Bag, the clear map holder was just a little too small to hold ACA's route maps w/o an extra fold to insert them. Otherwise it was extremely handy to store frequently used items, camera, money ect.

Hope this helps.

Sam in Cincy

The Ortliebs do fail occasionally - just by chance I came across this pic in the process of rating a different pic of mountain scenery:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?page_id=134919#pic_590367

Also, see Erin's in-depth review of their Ortliebs after some significant use on an extended tour:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/reviews/board/message/?thread_id=38352&page=1&nested=0#127860

What I take away from both these links is not that Ortliebs are crap, but rather that they are not bomb proof and can fail, so it's a good idea to take along some spare mounting hardware - I take a set or two of the top hooks (connected by the strap), and a couple of the bottom hooks, and some spare nuts and bolts too. Probably not many people put their panniers through what Erin and Sam have done on their "Honeymoon tour", but it's really useful to see these things stressed to the point of failure.

Neil

The lower mount is particularly nice. You can see in figure 2 what I have an objection to with the hook and bungee mounts. You have to balance the bike, use two hands to hook the bungee and then pull up so that the hooks can clear the deck. Ortliebs system just drops in place.

You don't need two hands to hook the bungee. You would know if you actually used it.

You don't need two hands to hook the bungee. You would know if you actually used it.

You do need two hands to hook the bungee...one to hold the bag and the other to pull the bungee out so that you can hook it on the rack. That's 2 hands and it doesn't leave an extra hand to hold up the bike. I have used bungee based systems before. I used them up until 2003 when I got a set of Ortliebs. I won't go back.

Neil said: However, the Arkels don't appear to have any means to keep the bottom from swinging outward - all there is is that bungee, which creates some downward tension on the hooks

Neil, seems to me that the hook on the bottom of the Arkel bags passes through that black strap that is sewn to the bottom of the bag which I think would not only hold the bag in downward tension but would also limit its ability to swing away from the bike/rack. No?

I own the Ortlieb bags, but I think I like the look of the Arkel mounting system better... although it does look to me as though mounting the bags with one hand would be a challenge.

You do need two hands to hook the bungee...one to hold the bag and the other to pull the bungee out so that you can hook it on the rack. That's 2 hands and it doesn't leave an extra hand to hold up the bike. I have used bungee based systems before. I used them up until 2003 when I got a set of Ortliebs. I won't go back.

I use the Arkel bags and my hands never touch the bungee or hook. Maybe you're just clumsy, or maybe Arkel built a better mouse trap but you wouldn't know since you never use them.

Neil, seems to me that the hook on the bottom of the Arkel bags passes through that black strap that is sewn to the bottom of the bag which I think would not only hold the bag in downward tension but would also limit its ability to swing away from the bike/rack. No?

Yes, you're right! I don't know why I didn't see that before. The strap does stop the pannier from swinging outward when the hook goes behind it.

I just got my new Co-Motion Americano, which has a Tubus Tara on the front. I notice that this rack no longer has the little metal hook eye option on the bottom - unless I'm mistaken, they used to have a threaded hole on the underside of the bottom of the rack, and an optional metal eye for panniers that use the bungee/hook method. This new rack has nothing at all. I asked Dwan at Co-Motion and I think he said he had asked Ortlieb USA about it and they told him something about how fewer panniers were using this method nowadays, so they changed it to some kind of plastic thing (which I don't have). I'm just going from sketchy memory of a conversation from a few days ago here, but that's the gist of what I remember. I'm going to have to call Ortlieb USA myself (or maybe Wayne at www.thetouringstore.com) to see what the deal is here... there's definitely no hole in the bottom of the rack for any kind of bolt, so either Tubus have done away with the hook option, or else it's going to be some kind of clamp-on or slide-on deal. That seems unfortunate, since the bolt hole would seem to be the most robust way of doing thing. The bottom tube on the Tara is kind of thick, so it would really be better to have the smaller eye to catch the hook - also to stop it from sliding fore or aft.

Neil

I use the Arkel bags and my hands never touch the bungee or hook. Maybe you're just clumsy, or maybe Arkel built a better mouse trap but you wouldn't know since you never use them.

Do you really have a need to insult people? You've called me clumsy and implied that I'm a liar. There is no need for ad hominem attacks. Let's look at the merits of the systems and keep the personal insults out of the discussion.

I've pointed out that I have used the hook and bungee system and found it lacking. The Arkel is a slightly improved system over, say, the old Cannondale panniers that didn't have a locking system. However they are still basically the same. I don't need to run out and buy a set to test them because they are basically the same as the panniers I bought back in 1984. Have you tried the Ortlieb mounting system? In the field? I have. I find them to be superior to any hook and bungee system I've ever tried. The water proofness of the bags are an added bonus. I'd buy them just for the mounting system if they were made of sponges.

Do you really have a need to insult people? You've called me clumsy and implied that I'm a liar. There is no need for ad hominem attacks. Let's look at the merits of the systems and keep the personal insults out of the discussion.

I've pointed out that I have used the hook and bungee system and found it lacking. The Arkel is a slightly improved system over, say, the old Cannondale panniers that didn't have a locking system. However they are still basically the same. I don't need to run out and buy a set to test them because they are basically the same as the panniers I bought back in 1984. Have you tried the Ortlieb mounting system? In the field? I have. I find them to be superior to any hook and bungee system I've ever tried. The water proofness of the bags are an added bonus. I'd buy them just for the mounting system if they were made of sponges.

All I said is that you keep knocking on a system you've never used. I've seen it the Ortlieb system in store and didn't like it. You don't see me talking about it, do you?

If you loved Arkels as much as Ortlied, you wouldn't have to buy their sponged-made panniers since they sell the mounting system alone.

I have used both and I prefer the ortlieb mounting system. Once the Arkel popped off the rack on the expansion joint bump of the GG bridge, has never happened with the Ortlieb. The arkels just seem a bit more clumsy to me, and the ortlieb easier and more secure in general.

All I said is that you keep knocking on a system you've never used. I've seen it the Ortlieb system in store and didn't like it. You don't see me talking about it, do you?

If you loved Arkels as much as Ortlied, you wouldn't have to buy their sponged-made panniers since they sell the mounting system alone.

What part of "I have used the hook and bungee system", don't you understand? I can look at the Arkel mount system and see that it is only slightly different from previous hook and bungee systems. I don't need to try them. Been there. Done that. I've tried both systems. Have you?

Others seem to agree with me (see Zoltani above).