Bicycle Mechanics - initial spoke tension Q

So I just put together a new wheel: 1x, undished. all elbows out, alternating "lacing" under/over for trailing/leading spoke.

As a starting point all spokes are adjusted with one or two threads showing. However, the funny thing is that some are completely slack while others are very tight. Specifically all the trailing spokes on the drive side and all the leading spokes on the NDS are slack (all others are tight). This forms a pattern at the rim where every other pair of spokes is slack (slack, slack, tight tight, slack, slack, etc). There are no other apparent patterns or rhyme to the slackness (for example, no consistency with under/over "lacing").

I don't want to waste my time finishing the wheel if something is wrong. What gives?

1x rear wheel with all heads out? There's your problem, imo.

How many spokes? Is the rim new?

How many spokes? Is the rim new?

Brand new rim. 24 spokes.

The thing that worries me is the very distinct pattern (all trailing spokes on DS and all leading spokes on NDS). I think it suggests some kind of systematic error (not just imperfect rim or low spoke count).

Sounds like you need to start all over again and count the holes more carefully.

.......The thing that worries me is the very distinct pattern (all trailing spokes on DS and all leading spokes on NDS). I think it suggests some kind of systematic error (not just imperfect rim or low spoke count).


You're right to wonder and worry and it's time to start over.

You're right to wonder and worry and it's time to start over.

I would except if I don't do anything different then why would the wheel come out any differently?

That's why I made this thread. To try to figure out what went wrong so I can avoid it when I start over.

Then some nice clean side on pictures or diagrams would be nice. It's hard to see what you did from here without them.... :D

Did you get the spoke lengths correct, and use slightly shorter spokes for the drive side vs. the non-drive side, and then somehow get them mixed up as you were building the wheel?

Is there a slot in the hub for the spokes to go a certain way that is taking a mm or so of your spoke length since you're building the wheel all elbows out?

Something's clearly off here, and a rebuilding of the wheel is probably in order, but pics would probably help.


So I just put together a new wheel: 1x, undished. all elbows out, alternating "lacing" under/over for trailing/leading spoke.

As a starting point all spokes are adjusted with one or two threads showing. However, the funny thing is that some are completely slack while others are very tight. Specifically all the trailing spokes on the drive side and all the leading spokes on the NDS are slack (all others are tight). This forms a pattern at the rim where every other pair of spokes is slack (slack, slack, tight tight, slack, slack, etc). There are no other apparent patterns or rhyme to the slackness (for example, no consistency with under/over "lacing").

I don't want to waste my time finishing the wheel if something is wrong. What gives?

Someone a little while back posted a similar story. I forget the outcome though. I seem to recall that it was simply a tensioning issue. They relied too much on counting threads without paying enough attention to tension and the result was a bizarre pattern of tension. Look it up though as I could be very wrong. It might have been a lacing issue.

unless it is a Chub hub with a Deep V or B43, 2 cross the rear.

unless it is a Chub hub with a Deep V or B43, 2 cross the rear.

I suspect it might be a 20" wheel for the front.

pics are worth a 1000 words.

I suspect it might be a 20" wheel for the front.
pics are worth a 1000 words.

he is using nds and ds in his descriptions.


Specifically all the trailing spokes on the drive side and all the leading spokes on the NDS are slack
(all others are tight).

Initial Spoke Tension: Turn one spoke one turn to tighten. Move to the next spoke on the same side - tighten one turn. Continue. Do the same on the other side of wheel. Continue until they feel tightish and the threads are virtually gone. Now go side to side and tighten the drive-side on the rear wheel a little (1/4 turn) more. Now get out your dishing-gauge and tension-meter. The drive-side should be 1/3rd or so tighter. Check for equalish tension. Try to get it as good as possible on each side - minding the drive-side should be tighter. Gauge. Tension-meter. True, round, stress, etc.

Have fun!

The loose traing spoke on the DS are balancing the loose leading spokes on the NDS. Tighten them both. You want even tension all around.

Did you get the spoke lengths correct, and use slightly shorter spokes for the drive side vs. the non-drive side, and then somehow get them mixed up as you were building the wheel?

Yeah, learnt that the hard way - re-laced the wheel twice before finding this out. I got to the point where I thought there were a few overlong spokes because they'd been replaced, and was going to file the ends off. Gerd Schraner's book is good, but doesn't tell you this in the text. It is in one of the charts however :-( Fortunately I discovered another article on the Internet which said that spokes are slightly shorter on the drive side before I went at them with a file.

I just built up and trued/dished and tensioned my first wheelset (I used to just lace them and had the LBS true and tension them for me) using NOS Mavic hubset and rims and new DT 14/15/14 DB DT stainless steel spokes. and one thing I learned is not to rely on thread counting to get my wheel started. What worked for me instead, after a couple of false starts with problems with a few spokes a bit too slack to manage, too much lateral and vertical runout was to first seat all the nipples by just using my fingers from the hub side of the rim, doing it in pairs at opposite sides of the rim, going around till all are evenly finger tight against the eylet wells as evenly as I can feel they are (lubricating the nipples and spoke threads is critical). This gave me a much better baseline start with the wheels that is already close to being true and round and dished properly. I think it sped up the whole process of building the wheels by minimizing time and effort by minimizing the truing and rounding and dishing effort in general.
I think The method of starting out by counting exposed threads does not always work too well sometimes maybe because of tolerances with the manufacturing process where not all spokes have exactly the same threaded legnths with a few oddball slightly longer or shorter from spec.
I guess everyone eventually finds their own way of building wheels with a continuous process of trial and error. I think I found my own best way to start out my wheels with this method.

Chombi

I just built up and trued/dished and tensioned my first wheelset (I used to just lace them and had the LBS true and tension them for me) using NOS Mavic hubset and rims and new DT 14/15/14 DB DT stainless steel spokes. and one thing I learned is not to rely on thread counting to get my wheel started. What worked for me instead, after a couple of false starts with problems with a few spokes a bit too slack to manage, too much lateral and vertical runout was to first seat all the nipples by just using my fingers from the hub side of the rim, doing it in pairs at opposite sides of the rim, going around till all are evenly finger tight against the eylet wells as evenly as I can feel they are (lubricating the nipples and spoke threads is critical). This gave me a much better baseline start with the wheels that is already close to being true and round and dished properly. I think it sped up the whole process of building the wheels by minimizing time and effort by minimizing the truing and rounding and dishing effort in general.
I think The method of starting out by counting exposed threads does not always work too well sometimes maybe because of tolerances with the manufacturing process where not all spokes have exactly the same threaded legnths with a few oddball slightly longer or shorter from spec.
I guess everyone eventually finds their own way of building wheels with a continuous process of trial and error. I think I found my own best way to start out my wheels with this method.

Chombi

Roger Musson's e-book includes directions to make an excellent and simple tool that does this pre-tensioning in a fast and completely thoughtless manner. No need to go around your wheel multiple times just to "pre-tension" it, just once around takes up all the slack in a uniform amount and sets you right up to the last bit of tensioning/truing. I've done a couple wheels since buying his book, and it works wonderfully.

-Jeremy

Most people read many books on the subject - once they have done the job and are enjoying the results. While Musson's ode is fine & dandy - every wheelbuilder has their own book.

Don't follow leaders & watch the parking-meters.

I would except if I don't do anything different then why would the wheel come out any differently?

That's why I made this thread. To try to figure out what went wrong so I can avoid it when I start over.
Because you might not be able to see what you did wrong, but when you go back and do it more carefully the second time, you will do it right and still not know what you did the first time. It's often something as simple as putting one side of the hub 2 holes over on the rim, which is sometimes hard to see when it's all done.

+1 to pictures. I've seen this kind of thread a few times before, and a square side shot always gets the answer.

Most people read many books on the subject - once they have done the job and are enjoying the results. While Musson's ode is fine & dandy - every wheelbuilder has their own book.

Don't follow leaders & watch the parking-meters.

Thanks so much for your helpful suggestion to someone who's pre-tensioning their nipples by counting turns by finger turn...Really helpful. So I've only read a couple of books, and my experience is in it's early stages...perhaps it's the fresh interest that allows me to provide "helpful suggestions" to those asking, rather than criticizing those trying to help. Gold stars to you my friend.

-Jeremy

nipple drivers.

http://www.parker-international.co.uk/ProductImages/fullsize/720158.jpg
http://www.pricepoint.com/images/styleImages/D_325%20DTSND9.jpg

My point remains: Once a person has built their first wheel, they will be developing the way that works best for them. Then they can read any, or all, of a dozen books. They are bound to find useful information in each. But the first hurdle is the actual build. Many I know have been dismayed by the words on the pages and many writers, Sheldon Brown even, leave certain aspects a bit fuzzy. Though you wouldn't know this until you have built that first wheel. Then they can take ANY of these books on the subject - and re-write those fuzzy parts and make them much more clear to a beginner.

The absolute best way to learn wheelbuilding is by instruction from a wheelbuilder who is right there in the room with you.

chucky is at the point where he's basically got it. And I agree he'll get it right this second time. Then I do suggest he read some books on the subject. Having now built a wheel, he'll be able to understand the subject matter better then prior to the build. The last thing he needs right now is to be confused by a debate on whose book is the best one. Which is what would happen. And, unfortunately, the best book on the subject is out-of-print. LOL!

Take your time, chucky, and pay attention to the spokes and which way they are going. If you get stressed - take a break and do something else for a bit. Have fun!

My point remains: Once a person has built their first wheel, they will be developing the way that works best for them. Then they can read any, or all, of a dozen books. They are bound to find useful information in each. But the first hurdle is the actual build. Many I know have been dismayed by the words on the pages and many writers, Sheldon Brown even, leave certain aspects a bit fuzzy. Though you wouldn't know this until you have built that first wheel. Then they can take ANY of these books on the subject - and re-write those fuzzy parts and make them much more clear to a beginner.

The absolute best way to learn wheelbuilding is by instruction from a wheelbuilder who is right there in the room with you.

chucky is at the point where he's basically got it. And I agree he'll get it right this second time. Then I do suggest he read some books on the subject. Having now built a wheel, he'll be able to understand the subject matter better then prior to the build. The last thing he needs right now is to be confused by a debate on whose book is the best one. Which is what would happen. And, unfortunately, the best book on the subject is out-of-print. LOL!

Take your time, chucky, and pay attention to the spokes and which way they are going. If you get stressed - take a break and do something else for a bit. Have fun!

I didn't realize that my suggestion that a nipple driver tool explained in a certain book was an argument that there is no other wheel building book to use for wheel building. And I don't really understand how you could have gotten that message. In fact, you can look up any of my posts on this forum and you'll not see any claims that this book is superior to anything else, I've simply stated that it was really helpful and allowed me to save a good deal of $ on tools that I was able to make myself. Aside from that, I can only can only compare it's content to that of the Leonard Zinn wheelbuilding section in the "Art of road bike maintenance" book, of which it is MUCH more easy to follow and understand. I apologize for making you feel like you were the last standing defense for all other wheel building books out there that I haven't yet read or recommended. But understand that I can only offer suggestions based on my own experience and content from the books that I have read, and I don't think that NOT having read EVERY wheelbuilding book in existence precludes me from offering the knowledge that I have gained to those who might benefit from it.

I do understand your point with regard to needing to actually DO IT in order to 'speak the same language' etc.. I was recently building a front wheel for a friend and as I was lacing it I was explaining to him the "how" and "why" and he was sort of staring at me blankly. I think he appreciated the explaination of what I was doing, but I don't think much, if any, of it stuck. Short of doing it himself, the reality is that he's not going to have much context.

I DID build a wheel before reading any wheel building books, and did it without the nipple driver. The lacing wasn't an issue because it was a radial front, but the build still took me longer because I had to count screwdriver turns around and around the wheel as I took up the spoke slack. Having experienced building in both ways, I have context for how much of an advantage is offered by a tool that can be easily made out of many folks tool bins. This is why I felt it necessary to offer the advice that I did.

-Jeremy

Ok so I figured out what the problem is. I was lacing a 36 hole hub to a 24 hole rim as per http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/36-24.htm and it turns out that things become considerably more complex if you want to use the same spoke pattern on both left and right sides.

As I'm sure you all know, the problem is that the offset between the left and right side drillings of a 36h hub is not the same as a 24h hub which created a "twist" and thus the aforementioned slackness pattern. Long story short I figured out a solution which allowed me to correct for the offset while keeping the same spoke length and basically the same spoke pattern. Once I put a few miles on it I'll make a thread detailing how to do it, but so far it seems to be a strong wheel.

Once I read Musson's book and discovered the simple tool called the nipple driver, I changed my old ways real quick. I love using that tool.

...... I was lacing a 36 hole hub to a 24 hole rim as per http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/36-24.htm .......

It may... er.... no, make that WOULD have saved us and you a LOT of time and effort if you had passed along this little gem in your first post.

my suggestion to anyone who views this thread in the future:
do not build a 'perverse' wheel as your first wheel build and come asking why it's not working.
really, there is a learning curve or stages, and you really have to understand why the wheel is round, firm and strong with the spokes it uses.

36 hole hub to a 24 hole rim? I wouldn't recommend it.

I don't see anything wrong with taking on a challenge. Hell, most of us would be up there cheering the guy on and itching to help with the issues so we could share in the build in a virtual way. But to keep this a secret for over a week? Or to think that it somehow didn't matter?

In the words of Kelly Bundy "the mind wobbles"... :D

I don't see anything wrong with taking on a challenge. Hell, most of us would be up there cheering the guy on and itching to help with the issues so we could share in the build in a virtual way. But to keep this a secret for over a week? Or to think that it somehow didn't matter?

In the words of Kelly Bundy "the mind wobbles"... :D

Considering how the responses changed once I mentioned it, it shouldn't be at all difficult to understand why I didn't mention it to begin with:
"do not build a 'perverse' wheel...and come asking why it's not working."
"36 hole hub to a 24 hole rim? I wouldn't recommend it."

And this is after I stopped asking for help! I guarantee if I had said something while I was asking for help the responses would have been much worse. I know because I always do things differently (because it's not possible to be better than average by following the standard) and the majority of people simply hate when things are done differently. Regardless of race, religion, or creed, interest or profession if there's one thing I know it's that mankind loves mediocrity and seeks to enforce it at all costs.

Nevertheless this time I figured out what the problem was and how to solve it on my own, but often times people have answers to problems which they are reluctant to share if they think you're doing things differently because somehow they think those answers don't or shouldn't extrapolate outside their own limited experience.

BTW, I know I said I'd make another thread, but since this one is still active I'll mention that the key to building a fully symmetrical 36-24 wheel is to change the spoke pattern at the rim from alternating R L R L R L R L to alternating R R L L R R L L (where R and L refer to spokes which connect to the right and left hub flanges, respectively).

Once I spend more time testing the wheel I'll post a full analysis along with how to use Rinard's spoke calculator the get the required spoke lengths.

P: "hey doctor, my arm hurts"
Dr.: "what did you do to it? can I see it?"
P: "no, I won't tell you what I did with it and you cannot see it"
Dr.: "why not? don't you want me to help you?"
P: "nevermind, I fixed it myself after I read up on how to treat myself"
Dr.: "well, what did you come here for?"

BTW, I know I said I'd make another thread, but since this one is still active I'll mention that the key to building a fully symmetrical 36-24 wheel is to change the spoke pattern at the rim from alternating R L R L R L R L to alternating R R L L R R L L (where R and L refer to spokes which connect to the right and left hub flanges, respectively).

Once I spend more time testing the wheel I'll post a full analysis along with how to use Rinard's spoke calculator the get the required spoke lengths.

Please keep us posted.

P: "hey doctor, my arm hurts"
Dr.: "what did you do to it? can I see it?"
P: "no, I won't tell you what I did with it and you cannot see it"
Dr.: "why not? don't you want me to help you?"
P: "nevermind, I fixed it myself after I read up on how to treat myself"
Dr.: "well, what did you come here for?"

I'm not going to respond to this because I don't want to offend anyone, but let it suffice to say that the overwhelming majority of people (including doctors and other intelligent and knowledgeable individuals) haven't the slightest idea how to properly think or gather information.

Frankly, it's a bit of a sore spot for me because I recently quit my job because I'm sick and tired of trying to explain this to people, especially doctors. That's why for now I just want to configure my bicycles the way I want them, ride them where I want to, and for once in my life not have to argue nonsense with people who have about as much sense as an iPhone (which, with all due respect, is also very "knowledgeable" in terms of information content).

The point was you had us all chasing out tails because you neglected or decided not to mention some extremely important information related to your troubles. If you're not going to tell the whole story why bother asking for help in the first place?

And yeah, some of the folks would have jumped all over this from the start because you wanted to do something out of the ordinary. But others would have gotten enthused and tried to help in a serious manner. And I would have been one of them. Some of us are always up for a challenge and to do something different or find out why it won't work after a good chew on the issue.

But when you toss in the topic and then jump in late in the game with something that makes the whole effort a waste all you do is shoot yourself in the foot for next time. Remember the tale of the boy who cried "WOLF".....

Main Entry: alien·ate
Pronunciation: \ˈā-lē-ə-ˌnāt, ˈāl-yə-\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): alien·at·ed; alien·at·ing
Date: circa 1509

1 : to make unfriendly, hostile, or indifferent especially where attachment formerly existed.

The point was you had us all chasing out tails because you neglected or decided not to mention some extremely important information related to your troubles. If you're not going to tell the whole story why bother asking for help in the first place?

And yeah, some of the folks would have jumped all over this from the start because you wanted to do something out of the ordinary. But others would have gotten enthused and tried to help in a serious manner. And I would have been one of them. Some of us are always up for a challenge and to do something different or find out why it won't work after a good chew on the issue.

But when you toss in the topic and then jump in late in the game with something that makes the whole effort a waste all you do is shoot yourself in the foot for next time. Remember the tale of the boy who cried "WOLF".....

Ok, you're right. It was rude and selfish of me to manipulate you guys for my own potential benefit. I'm sorry.

I used an Eldi nipple-driver on a few wheels before, check those out. No handle to turn. Push down once - that's one full revolution.

Other than that - I'm taking my Park SW-0 and going home in a snit! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

Ok, you're right. It was rude and selfish of me to manipulate you guys for my own potential benefit. I'm sorry.
Rude or not, that's like asking someone for tips on how to drive their new manual transmission, then after all the advice comes in and doesn't seem to work, saying "Oh, by the way, I drive a 12 speed semi truck."

spiral
http://www.rutlands.co.uk/images/DKY1.jpg