Foo - Help solve my automotive mystery

1993 Ford Probe, 4 cyl 2.0L, 5sp manual, 127,717 as of getting gas this morning.
Saturday evening I went from Columbus, OH to Lafayette, IN. Average ambient temperature is ~20*F. The car started quickly and without problems, and proceeded to idle smoothly as usual. Nothing seemed unusual in the drive (girlfriend driving to learn stick, I'm the only passenger).
Around 3 hours in we stopped at a gas station near the freeway to fill up as the tank was ~2 gallons from empty (15.5 gas tank, added 13.5) After filling up the car wouldn't start. It turned over ok, the lights were not dim, it just didn't start.
After two iterations of this I traded places and got in the driver's seat, same thing. If I held the gas pedal down just a bit the car started and ran with no problems, even if I had it at idle speed (900 rpm). However, as soon as I released the accelerator it would die. No stumbling, coughing, or trying at all, it just died as if I had turned off the key. After doing that again (start, die) I restarted the car (holding the accelerator down slightly) and proceeded to get on to the freeway operating both the brake and clutch with my left foot, and maintaining some pressure on the accelerator with my right. After ~ 1 minute on the freeway I depressed the clutch, released the gas pedal, and the car idled smoothly as if nothing was ever wrong. The next morning (Sunday) I tried to start it, and it started and idled without any problems.
Monday I drove to work(65 miles each way) and back, no problems starting, idling, or running.
Tuesday on the way home I made 1 stop ~20 miles in and then drove the rest of the way home, no problems starting, idling. etc., warm or cold starts.
This morning (Wednesday), no problems starting, got gas on the way in to work (40 miles in), and had the same problem. Once more a slight depression of the accelerator pedal got me going. The car did die when I stopped at the freeway entrance and forgot to hold down the gas pedal a bit, but started up just fine when I did. As before, a test 60 seconds down the road showed no problems. When I got to work I shut my car off, waited 60 seconds, and restarted it with no problems, and no need to hold down the accelerator.

At this point I've concluded that it has something to do with putting fuel in the tank, and I have 4 theories:

1) My car doesn't like gas stations, and is trying to condition me not to go to them.
2) My car really likes gas stations, and wants to stay once it gets there.
3) Water in the tank.
4) Clogged fuel filter.

1 and 2 don't seem scientific enough for my engineering mind. 3 and 4 have some holes as well since it runs without problem with just a little pressure on the gas pedal.

It's a Mazda.

Probably a sensor or solenoid that tells the computer to provide fuel at idle or holds open the throttle has failed. What sensor I don't know because I'm not up on modern cars or FI systems. It could even be a smog related sensor or even the computer itself. You need to take the car to a mech who has the diagnostic tools to read the system parameters.

Of course it could be that your car just doesn't like the specific gas stations you're taking it to. You Cheapskate.

Probe 1957-
This is true, but I've never had a significant problem in the last 50k miles that my former room mate or I owned it, and it's just not efficient to drive the modded Camaro ('91) 150 miles/day.

Get a bike!

Yeah, might be the fuel filter or fuel pressure regulator.

There's a good chance the car is reporting errors when it won't start. Head down to your friendly autoparts store and have them scan the computer. Maybe that will clue you in.

Probably a sensor or solenoid that tells the computer to provide fuel at idle or holds open the throttle has failed. What sensor I don't know because I'm not up on modern cars or FI systems. It could even be a smog related sensor or even the computer itself. You need to take the car to a mech who has the diagnostic tools to read the system parameters.

Of course it could be that your car just doesn't like the specific gas stations you're taking it to. You Cheapskate.

No check engine light, and no error codes registering (already checked that), plus it's not OBD2 so the local places can't scan it.
If it's a solenoid, why does it only happen when I refill the tank and not the other 7 times I've started it since then?
I've been to doth gas stations at least a dozen times.
If an O2 sensor, why isn't it lacking on power, stumbling at idle, or not starting other times?

Get a bike!

Already have several. They aren't good for the 65 mile commute in the winter, I'm not PCAD. I did bike to work once over the summer, and then spent the rest of the day answering the question "You biked HOW FAR to get here?"

Yeah, might be the fuel filter or fuel pressure regulator.

There's a good chance the car is reporting errors when it won't start. Head down to your friendly autoparts store and have them scan the computer. Maybe that will clue you in.

No error codes.

Already have several. They aren't good for the 65 mile commute in the winter, I'm not PCAD. I did bike to work once over the summer, and then spent the rest of the day answering the question "You biked HOW FAR to get here?"

move a little closer then.

move a little closer then.

Then I wouldn't be able to live with the girlfriend. I suppose I could make her move too, but with her PhD work at Purdue, she already leaves when I do and often gets in much later. It isn't the commute I mind, it's my car not starting when I put fuel in to it.

It's a Mazda.

lucky, if it were a true Ford it prob wouldn't have made it off the production line.

Then I wouldn't be able to live with the girlfriend. I suppose I could make her move too, but with her PhD work at Purdue, she already leaves when I do and often gets in much later. It isn't the commute I mind, it's my car not starting when I put fuel in to it.

well....new car?

call Click and Clack

http://www.cartalk.com/Radio/Show/

My guess is the Idle Air Control is intermittent (it's the air bleeder that allows the car to idle, takes the place of an idle screw on a carb).

No check engine light, and no error codes registering (already checked that), plus it's not OBD2 so the local places can't scan it.
If it's a solenoid, why does it only happen when I refill the tank and not the other 7 times I've started it since then?
I've been to doth gas stations at least a dozen times.
If an O2 sensor, why isn't it lacking on power, stumbling at idle, or not starting other times?

Check engine light only comes on when it's an emissions-related electronic issue.

Did you leave the key on while you filled the tank?

Sounds like a dirty Throttle Body. If cleaning that doesn't fix it I'd try the MAP sensor next (but I'd expect that to cause a 'Check Engine' light).
My Camry sometimes has the same symptom. Will not keep running when started unless I keep my foot on the gas, but once it's driven for a minute or so it runs fine. But I haven't had any correlation with stopping at gas stations - it's been pretty random.

See:
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/idleproblems.html

well....new car?
But with a simple fix, this one may well continue to work.

call Click and Clack
http://www.cartalk.com/Radio/Show/
Strongly considering that at this point. I always have enjoyed their show.

My guess is the Idle Air Control is intermittent (it's the air bleeder that allows the car to idle, takes the place of an idle screw on a carb).
Sounds reasonable, but once more, why only when I fill the tank (opposed to the other warm starts)?

Check engine light only comes on when it's an emissions-related electronic issue.Yes, but shorting the correct two pins at the diagnostic port should show all errors, including crank position sensors and such. No errors codes showed.

Did you leave the key on while you filled the tank?
No, I always remove the key and shut off the running lights/head lamps.

Sounds like a dirty Throttle Body. If cleaning that doesn't fix it I'd try the MAP sensor next (but I'd expect that to cause a 'Check Engine' light).
My Camry sometimes has the same symptom. Will not keep running when started unless I keep my foot on the gas, but once it's driven for a minute or so it runs fine. But I haven't had any correlation with stopping at gas stations - it's been pretty random.
See:
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/idleproblems.html
I'll look in to this, thank you.

Sounds like a dirty Throttle Body. If cleaning that doesn't fix it I'd try the MAP sensor next (but I'd expect that to cause a 'Check Engine' light).
My Camry sometimes has the same symptom. Will not keep running when started unless I keep my foot on the gas, but once it's driven for a minute or so it runs fine. But I haven't had any correlation with stopping at gas stations - it's been pretty random.

See:
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/idleproblems.html

I would start with the basics, and the above is one of the basics.
Please note that, with Ford products, you need to use a special throttle body cleaner, rather than carb cleaner. The throttle plate has a coating on it that normal carb cleaner can destroy. It's available at most/all auto parts stores. Make sure you clean the back of the plate, and the little hole (assuming the Probes have that hole) through the plate. I would also remove the IAC (Idle Air Control) and clean the pintle on that.

It's odd that it only does it after filling up.... maybe leaky injectors?

Wait.
Duh.
Crap in the gas tank. When you fill the tank, crap (rust, bugs, all kinds of crap - you'd be surprised) on the bottom of your gas tank is mixed with the gas. It could be covering the screen on your fuel pump pickup, reducing the fuel pressure at idle. Once the crap settles to the bottom of the tank while you're driving or after you stop the car, it's all good again until you fill up the next time.

I consulted with Pgoat and we are going to blame this on.............................. JET SKIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Google "Ford Probe Forum" and let people who know the car fix it for you. Chances are it's an easily diagnosed problem. I've had great luck with automotive forums finding fixes to the problems my cars have had.

My guess is a faulty Kuhneutson Valve. (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=9)

<snip>
It's odd that it only does it after filling up.... maybe leaky injectors?

Wait.
Duh.
Crap in the gas tank. When you fill the tank, crap (rust, bugs, all kinds of crap - you'd be surprised) on the bottom of your gas tank is mixed with the gas. It could be covering the screen on your fuel pump pickup, reducing the fuel pressure at idle. Once the crap settles to the bottom of the tank while you're driving or after you stop the car, it's all good again until you fill up the next time.
This. The first time you noticed it was when you put 13.5 gallons in a 15.5 capacity tank. The next time you noticed was also when you got gas. How low were you then? Rule of thumb around here is to drive using only the top 3/4 tank. When the needle gets to 1/4, time for more gas.

Throttle position sensor? Did you get gas at Supertest on 52 and 38? Either could cause the issue. Supertest has a lot of water in their tanks and if they just took a delivery, that was all stirred up and floating around in their tanks. It takes about 2 hours to settle to the bottom of the tank again.


No check engine light, and no error codes registering (already checked that), plus it's not OBD2 so the local places can't scan it.
If it's a solenoid, why does it only happen when I refill the tank and not the other 7 times I've started it since then?
I've been to doth gas stations at least a dozen times.
If an O2 sensor, why isn't it lacking on power, stumbling at idle, or not starting other times?

Run a bottle of dry gas through the tank. It will dissipate any water in the tank. If the problem persists clean out the throttle position sensor with some brake cleaner, dry and reinstall.

Potential fixes in order of ease/cost efficiency to fix:

Water in tank: as Mr. Danw said, get some 'dry gas' (likely some sort of alcohol-base), pour it in your tank, be happy.

Clogged fuel filter: (kind of a leap, and only if it's external from your gas tank) get a new one, install. Note whether you can blow through the old one (do not suck).

Junk in your tank: One of two ways, drop the gas tank and do a thorough rinse/cleaning of it (with gasoline or alcohol), or you could try filling it up, immediately and quickly draining it, filling it/draining it, etc. in hopes of rustling everything up and sucking it out. But with the price of gasoline you could very well pay someone to do it the first way and come out on top.

I'm also not shunning the IAC sensor as was previously mentioned. The O2 sensor typically won't mess it up bad enough to be stalling the car. Try some injector cleaner into the gas tank as well, just to flush everything out. Good luck.

Dirty fuel injectors?

It's a ford.

Found On Road Dead.

Final On Race Day


Shhhhhhhhhhhh........on a quiet night, if you listen carefully......beyond the sound of the rustling leaves....you can hear a Ford rust....

Fix Or Repair Daily

What's sad is that I have a ford. It has a 350 chevy in it so that's some consolation.

So TC, was the problem ever solved? I have a 99 Sunfire that does that. I was in Columbus recently after watching a movie at the Movie Tavern. Stopped at the gas station just to grab a coffee. When I got back in, it did the sometimes usual "not start, motor rumbled alot. Usually when that happens, we just try it again and it usually will fire up. Not this time, had to give it a good amount of gas then it fired up. Afterwards it ran fine. The car does idle pretty rough at times. I thinking fuel filter or spark plugs for mine.......or its just a pos car. I'll NEVER buy another pontiac! Had to buy a $60 tool just to change the damn serpentine belt.

I had a 1992 ford probe that did something similar, but it was a different engine.

When it does run, does it exhibit any idle hunting behavior? If so, just for kicks, check the air inlet hose from the airbox/MAF to the TB... the 2.2L engine was notorious for having those boots dry rot and crack, which allowed air into the intake after the MAF, which confused the heck out of the computer. I don't know if the 2.0 has the same setup (with the MAF on the output of the airbox), though...

Update:
Car started fine last night to go home. I stopped then started it upon getting home as well. Just in case I opened the gas cap, took a walk around the block, closed it, and started the car just fine. Seeing as it was cheap I replaced the fuel filter as it's been in there for the last 127,xxx miles. The car idles a bit slower (maybe 50 rpm), but started just fine. I took it for a drive (10 minutes) with no ill effects. At this point I have 3/4 of a tank and decide to fill it up since I've made a change. After parking next to the pump I realize that I didn't have my wallet. I paused, concluded that I didn't want to walk inside with cash, and went to leave...and my car didn't start. Same thing with holding the gas pedal down. It started fine this morning, and started fine after a pause in the parking lot at work.


My guess is the Idle Air Control is intermittent (it's the air bleeder that allows the car to idle, takes the place of an idle screw on a carb).
I've thought about that and need to track it down still.

I would start with the basics, and the above is one of the basics.
Please note that, with Ford products, you need to use a special throttle body cleaner, rather than carb cleaner. The throttle plate has a coating on it that normal carb cleaner can destroy. It's available at most/all auto parts stores. Make sure you clean the back of the plate, and the little hole (assuming the Probes have that hole) through the plate. I would also remove the IAC (Idle Air Control) and clean the pintle on that.
It's odd that it only does it after filling up.... maybe leaky injectors?
Wait.
Duh.
Crap in the gas tank. When you fill the tank, crap (rust, bugs, all kinds of crap - you'd be surprised) on the bottom of your gas tank is mixed with the gas. It could be covering the screen on your fuel pump pickup, reducing the fuel pressure at idle. Once the crap settles to the bottom of the tank while you're driving or after you stop the car, it's all good again until you fill up the next time.
Throttle body looked clean when I had the filter/plastic intake off. I've considered crap in the tank (I always run it most of the way down before refilling as it works out to a multiple of one of my trips to/from work. Being a plastic gas tank with a rubber hose I don't expect rust in the tank, although I'm planning to drop it Saturday to see how much crud is in the bottom anyways. I thought about stirring up stuff but I'm not sure why it wouldn't run poorly as the tank gets low, or why it would go away after some driving if it's building up on the fuel pump intake filter (assuming there is one).


Google "Ford Probe Forum" and let people who know the car fix it for you. Chances are it's an easily diagnosed problem. I've had great luck with automotive forums finding fixes to the problems my cars have had.
I've wandered through a bunch of that and have only found the generic check this clean that of things I'm already going for. I'm a member of a car forum which didn't have an obvious answer in searches, and I thought it would be more fun to go through Foo.

My guess is a faulty Kuhneutson Valve. (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=9)
That's amazing (read the product review as well). Fortunately my Camaro has a well functioning Kuhneutson valve during warmer weather.

Throttle position sensor? Did you get gas at Supertest on 52 and 38? Either could cause the issue. Supertest has a lot of water in their tanks and if they just took a delivery, that was all stirred up and floating around in their tanks. It takes about 2 hours to settle to the bottom of the tank again.
Actually got it at place outside of Indy (east side, 2 exits before Post Rd on I-70W) the first time, and McClure on I-65 around mile 140. I do sometimes get gas at that Supertest though. What is the indication that they have a lot of water in their tank? Also, since several of the gas stations I use have 10% ethanol in their fuel, I assume that would prevent any gradual buildup of water.

Run a bottle of dry gas through the tank. It will dissipate any water in the tank. If the problem persists clean out the throttle position sensor with some brake cleaner, dry and reinstall.
That's just isopropanol, which I'll run through (the 99% stuff, not the 70). Since I use gasoline with ethanol though I don't imagine that I have too much water buildup, unless I got a tank full of it at the late night fill up near Indianapolis. I also have a bottle of injector cleaner (stoddard solvent I think) that I'll run through.

Potential fixes in order of ease/cost efficiency to fix:
Water in tank: as Mr. Danw said, get some 'dry gas' (likely some sort of alcohol-base), pour it in your tank, be happy.
Clogged fuel filter: (kind of a leap, and only if it's external from your gas tank) get a new one, install. Note whether you can blow through the old one (do not suck).
Junk in your tank: One of two ways, drop the gas tank and do a thorough rinse/cleaning of it (with gasoline or alcohol), or you could try filling it up, immediately and quickly draining it, filling it/draining it, etc. in hopes of rustling everything up and sucking it out. But with the price of gasoline you could very well pay someone to do it the first way and come out on top.
I'm also not shunning the IAC sensor as was previously mentioned. The O2 sensor typically won't mess it up bad enough to be stalling the car. Try some injector cleaner into the gas tank as well, just to flush everything out. Good luck.
I'll be dropping the tank Saturday, by which point it will be nearly empty anyways. Hopefully being a front wheel drive car it isn't too involved a process. At least I have a good jack and stands.


Final On Race Day
Shhhhhhhhhhhh........on a quiet night, if you listen carefully......beyond the sound of the rustling leaves....you can hear a Ford rust.... That's ok, it's really a Mazda. Surprisingly, for a car that spent most of its life in southern Alaska, there really isn't much rust. Given how fast I'm putting miles on it (40-50k/year), I'm not expecting it to live long enough to rust out.


I had a 1992 ford probe that did something similar, but it was a different engine.
When it does run, does it exhibit any idle hunting behavior? If so, just for kicks, check the air inlet hose from the airbox/MAF to the TB... the 2.2L engine was notorious for having those boots dry rot and crack, which allowed air into the intake after the MAF, which confused the heck out of the computer. I don't know if the 2.0 has the same setup (with the MAF on the output of the airbox), though...
No idle hunting when running, and it's the 4cyl 2.0L not the 6cyl, although the MAF is on the output of the airbox. I looked at all the vacuum lines while I was down there and didn't see anything getting dried out or cracking.


The thing that really gets me is that it doesn't happen at all warm starts, just the ones at or right after gas stations (so far), even if I didn't fill up. One of my fellow engineers at work suggested that I invest in some long hoses so that I can park near the gas station rather than in it, thereby confusing the car.
There is a minor exhaust leak, but it's well after the last O2 sensor.

It has me perplexed, and I'm a Ford-certified technician. Of course, it's easier to diagnose the car when it's actually in front of you....

Do you have a multimeter? If so, turn the car on to "IGN" (don't start it), set the multimeter to volts and measure the voltage using the Signal and TP pins of the TPS harness connector (back-probe through the squishy silicone stuff). With the throttle closed, the voltage should be .6V (up to 1.0V). Slowly open the throttle and watch the voltage on the MM. It should increase steadily. At full throttle, it should be around 4.5-5V. If the voltage spikes in the middle, or drops to 0, you have a bad TPS. If it isn't reading .6V-1.0V at idle, you can try setting it. They only have a small amount of movement around the screws, so if it's REALLY off, you probably need a new TPS, or someone has screwed with the base idle screw.

I don't know what this would have to do with gas stations, but pushing on the throttle to start it could mean a bad TPS. So, that's one of the things I would check.


Now.... when you say you're holding the throttle down, are you holding it ALL the way down?
If so, that puts the car into "Clear Flood" mode, turning off the fuel injectors. This would be indicative of dripping fuel injectors (which WOULDN'T surprise me, since we just discovered that your fuel filter had never been replaced. Bad! Bad! Smack yourself now, please.) It's remotely possible that some tiny pieces of crap have lodged in your injectors and are holding them open, causing them to drip and flood the car.

Lots of things are possible, actually. lol.

I had an '89 Probe GT Turbo and a '94 2.5L 6cyl. GT and the only fuel type issue I ever had was on the '89. The fuel shutoff/safety switch in the left rear corner of the car would lose electrical contact sometimes and the car would not get fuel. I had to "fiddle" with the switch to get the fuel system(pump) to work.

Sounds to me like a throttle body issue. Take some where and get it cleaned. Don't use the products you put in your gas tank to clean it. The only work with extreme amounts and the people that make them know it. It's a scam.

Have you measured your compression lately?

It has me perplexed, and I'm a Ford-certified technician. Of course, it's easier to diagnose the car when it's actually in front of you....

Do you have a multimeter? If so, turn the car on to "IGN" (don't start it), set the multimeter to volts and measure the voltage using the Signal and TP pins of the TPS harness connector (back-probe through the squishy silicone stuff). With the throttle closed, the voltage should be .6V (up to 1.0V). Slowly open the throttle and watch the voltage on the MM. It should increase steadily. At full throttle, it should be around 4.5-5V. If the voltage spikes in the middle, or drops to 0, you have a bad TPS. If it isn't reading .6V-1.0V at idle, you can try setting it. They only have a small amount of movement around the screws, so if it's REALLY off, you probably need a new TPS, or someone has screwed with the base idle screw.
I don't know what this would have to do with gas stations, but pushing on the throttle to start it could mean a bad TPS. So, that's one of the things I would check.
Now.... when you say you're holding the throttle down, are you holding it ALL the way down?
If so, that puts the car into "Clear Flood" mode, turning off the fuel injectors. This would be indicative of dripping fuel injectors (which WOULDN'T surprise me, since we just discovered that your fuel filter had never been replaced. Bad! Bad! Smack yourself now, please.) It's remotely possible that some tiny pieces of crap have lodged in your injectors and are holding them open, causing them to drip and flood the car.
Lots of things are possible, actually. lol.
I do have a DMM, and can check that tonight, but why does it die after starting and running ok (with some throttle pressure)?
I am not holding the throttle all the way down. In fact, I'm barely putting any pressure on it at all (keeping it running and starting). If I do, it revs up to the 2-3k range (as it always has) It takes a very light touch to hold it at ~1000 rpm. It has always been very sensitive to the throttle pedal when in neutral as long as I've driven it (off and on since around the 70k mark). Then again, being a manual it's not like the engine sees much load when the clutch is open.
Per smacking myself (I do that often enough for other reasons), do note that while I have maintained the car since around the 70k mark for a room mate, I've only owned it for a few months (somewhere around 114,000).
I don't think flooding makes sense, because the car will still die after I get it running and drive for ~30 seconds (but less than 2 minutes at which point it's fine), at which point any excess fuel should have long since flushed out.

I had an '89 Probe GT Turbo and a '94 2.5L 6cyl. GT and the only fuel type issue I ever had was on the '89. The fuel shutoff/safety switch in the left rear corner of the car would lose electrical contact sometimes and the car would not get fuel. I had to "fiddle" with the switch to get the fuel system(pump) to work.
Had that happen once on a really lumpy gravel road. Pushed it back in, and haven't had an issue with it since. I also checked that and it seems to be in all the way.

Sounds to me like a throttle body issue. Take some where and get it cleaned. Don't use the products you put in your gas tank to clean it. The only work with extreme amounts and the people that make them know it. It's a scam.
I looked at the throttle body when I had the intake off and it looks and feels clean (which surprised me). Generally speaking I agree with you about gas tank products, but I already have the isopropanol laying around, and it should actually take out water. The fuel injector cleaner I got for free, and I'm not sure what to do with it other than run it through the car.

Just talked to a guy at my office who had the same problem. It ended up being his fuel pump.

The gas station thing is probably a red herring.

I've had non starting issues in other vehicles related to fuel pumps, but none that die after they start running ok. I do suspect it's a fuel delivery thing though because I have a good spark, and I don't think my compression has just died in all the cylinders just like that. Also, I don't know when the air filter was last replaced, but it looked fine when I was in there.

Dirty fuel injectors?


It has me perplexed, and I'm a Ford-certified technician. Of course, it's easier to diagnose the car when it's actually in front of you....

[snip]

Now.... when you say you're holding the throttle down, are you holding it ALL the way down?
If so, that puts the car into "Clear Flood" mode, turning off the fuel injectors. This would be indicative of dripping fuel injectors (which WOULDN'T surprise me, since we just discovered that your fuel filter had never been replaced. Bad! Bad! Smack yourself now, please.) It's remotely possible that some tiny pieces of crap have lodged in your injectors and are holding them open, causing them to drip and flood the car.

Lots of things are possible, actually. lol.

*ahem*

*knock knock*

Hello? Anybody there?

Only one person sorta remotely agreed that the female might have something here.

*ahem*

*knock knock*

Hello? Anybody there?

Only one person sorta remotely agreed that the female might have something here.

Prior mention of fuel injectors duly noted. :p

(I missed your post, apparently.)

Okay... I was thinking of posting this yesterday but I'm not sure if this is the same thing others are seeing. I have a 95 Escort that my son drives. We've had it since it was new, currently about 130k miles. Sometimes, after it's fully warmed up, then shut off and parked for ~20 minutes to an hour or so, it won't start. You can crank and crank and crank and.... nothing. If if it happens, the way to get it to start is to turn the key from Off to On (but not start), hold it there for a few seconds (you can hear the fuel pump click on, then after a few seconds it shuts off), then move it to Off, then back On, repeating that cycle maybe 4 or 5 times. Brrrrooooom! Starts right up.

Someone on the CarTalk website said that if this happens, the problem is with the seals in the fuel pump. I'm not sure if this is exactly what's happening, but it's kind of like a vapor lock condition. The fuel lines are intended to stay primed when the car is off. When the seals are bad, the fuel in the lines seep out back into the fuel tank and you can actually get a vaccuum bubble in the line. As the car cools, the bubble goes away.

When this occurs, the car tries to start. If there is a no-start condition after several seconds, the fuel pump shuts off as a safety measure. If that vaccuum bubble is there, the pump pushes the gas through the line until it gets to the vaccuum, then there is no gas. If this occurs about the same time as the pump shuts off, there will never be any gas. By doing the Off-On thing several times, the safety feature is overridden and gas is pumped through the lines back up to the engine (basically they become primed) and once that happens the car will start right up.

If what I wrote sounds like your car, it could be the fuel pump. On my Escort it's done that for years, like maybe 6 or 7. Because we know out to get it started and once it starts, it's fine, I've never bothered to change out the fuel pump.

So it could be that.

Prior mention of fuel injectors duly noted. :p

(I missed your post, apparently.)

No no no!! I'm glad you mentioned it! You backed me up! I appreciate your post AND the fact that you are a Ford certified tech. http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o286/Flycrow/phatyo.gif Maybe someone will take our word into consideration.

^^^It was noted Sui, but it still doesn't really explain why a problem occurs after the car is running when warm started (for the first minute or two).

<snip>
Fuel pump maybe if it wouldn't start for a while then stayed running, but it does start, and runs with only slight throttle pressure, but dying if I let it go. It's the runs great (unless fully releasing the throttle) part that makes me think the fuel pump is ok.

Yes, I've checked all my engine and battery grounds.

Its an american made and not a truck.
/thread

no mystery. it's a Ford. sorry, I drive one too

If I remember correctly (it's been a while), you can access the fuel pump from under the back seat. Pull the seat bottom out, and there should be a removable plate. You can then take the fuel pump out, look at the pickup screen, and see if there's any crap in the bottom of the tank.

Most Japanese cars are this way, and since the Probe is a Mazda.....

If this were a throttle-body injected engine, I'd say it could be gunk in the fuel occasionally clogging the injector. But I believe this is multi-port injected; one clogged injector would not completely kill the engine, and it seems unlikely you'd have multiple injectors clogged just enough to kill idle but not enough to affect off-idle performance.

Some kind of clogged pickup screen in the tank seems possible, but I'd think that would also affect performance when off-idle - which you don't report. It would be nice if you could measure fuel pressure when the event occurs.

A sticky IAC valve, or intermittent MAF sensor connection fit the intermittent failure, but don't explain the correlation to refueling. You have only two data points. With 15-20 I'd be more confident - how about running a longer experiment? ;)

One issue I know you have is too many engineers and not enough technicians. :lol: