Well, perhaps God is trying to communicate with me somehow, but I was stopped
AGAIN, for blowing a red light AGAIN. Or maybe the Seattle Police have issued a
bulletin advising all police to crack down on cyclists. (I'd be interested in knowing
if the bike couriers in town have seen any of this. I watched a group stream through
the city the other day, violating every law known to man. It was a beautiful sight,
although I don't personally advocate that degree of risk taking.)
This time it was my morning commute. The best part of my commute is flying down
Jackson Street from 15th to 2nd. It's a long straight hill with timed lights. I can hit
every light just as it turns green. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Unfortunately,
this policeman determined that hitting a light just as it turns green consistutes
blowing a red. He advised me to take it up with the judge. (In fairness, he also
advised me that judges are lenient on cyclists.)
So, yes, this time I was ticketted. $81. According to the policeman, this was
lenient, as he could have given me a ticket for each of the lights.
Ironically, just a few blocks before starting that descent I was run off the road by
a woman in a Toyota Tahoma (monster truck) talking on a cell phone. She switched
lanes and I had to jump a (fortunately low) curb to avoid being knocked off the street.
Anyway, I have been (carefully, judiciously, and reasonably safely) riding in urban
traffic for 25 years now. Never been in an accident. Never caused an accident. And
I think I can count the times I have actually inconvenienced a driver on one hand.
Only these past couple of weeks have I ever had any trouble with the police. It
must mean something.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Put the officer on the stand. Ask him: "Officer, was the light green or red when I passed under it?" 'Nuff said.
Dave
Paul L.
Put the officer on the stand. Ask him: "Officer, was the light green or red when I passed under it?" 'Nuff said.
Dave
Actually it is when you cross the white line whether it be the the line of the crosswalk or a white line painted across the lane as a mark for where traffic should stop. If there is no line then I would guess it would be the imaginary line formed by the two corners.
ngateguy
My suggestion is to stop running red lights or stop complaining about tickets when you do.
It is the officers job to ticket people for breaking the law don't get upset with him for doing his job.
operator
ngateguy is that you in that avatar?
Laggard
It's amazing how I've never seen a car pulled over for blowing through a red light. Nor have I seen a car pulled over for cutting me off or pushing me into the curb.
Who's a bigger danger to others? A car running a red light. Or a bike.
bluejack
Well, I have seen cars pulled over for running lights. As they should be of course.
I do agree with NGateGuy that I shouldn't be complaining about being stopped for breaking the law -- but of course it's a story to share, so even if it doesn't entirely put me in a good light, I like to share it. In this case, I think a case could be made that I wasn't breaking the law, but the fact is, I do cut those light close -- because I know their schedule by heart. In this case, I know my turf. I know I was riding alertly (although not alertly enough to realize I was being tracked by a motorcycle policeman, apparently several blocks back because it took him a while to catch up to me after I turned off Jackson), but to a casual observer it might have seemed that I was being careless, even reckless.
What makes me more curious is the apparent (although it could be coincidence) crackdown on cyclists by the police. I am not riding any differently than I have always ridden, and I have never been stopped before. Twice in two? three? weeks is startling.
mmerner
Just call the police dept and ask. They don't keep that stuff secret, but you do have to ask.
caloso
What bunabayashi said. It is legally impossible to run a red light if the light is green when you enter the intersection.
DnvrFox
I guess my concern would be that if you are hitting the light just as it turns green, there are always yo-yo cross-traffic auto drivers who are trying to beat their red (your green), giving a greater chance of broadsiding a late intersection-leaving driver.
Perhaps this is not your situation - around here, drivers are always trying to get through the light even after the yellow.
jeff williams
It's amazing how I've never seen a car pulled over for blowing through a red light. Nor have I seen a car pulled over for cutting me off or pushing me into the curb.
Who's a bigger danger to others? A car running a red light. Or a bike.
Unfortunatly, if someone driving has tried to race his change, and you do the same @ the intersection.........and you collide.....
The car will be fine, you however, might die.
I'd blow in a car, not on a bike.
I have less problems because I follow traffic rules, also cars can 'expect' or predict my actions, hence less accidents.
>jef.
caloso
I guess my concern would be that if you are hitting the light just as it turns green, there are always yo-yo cross-traffic auto drivers who are trying to beat their red (your green), giving a greater chance of broadsiding a late intersection-leaving driver.
Perhaps this is not your situation - around here, drivers are always trying to get through the light even after the yellow.
True enough. My point was that it isn't illegal even though it may not be the safest practice.
ngateguy
What makes me more curious is the apparent (although it could be coincidence) crackdown on cyclists by the police. I am not riding any differently than I have always ridden, and I have never been stopped before. Twice in two? three? weeks is startling.
I think you might want to chalk it up to bad luck. I have not seen or heard of any "crackdown" it usually pops up in th emedia when they do it.
Bockman
What exactly were you charged with? What does it say on the ticket?
Dave
bluejack
"Bicycle Rights Duties - Red Light" SMC 11.44.020
Props for knowing his Seattle Municipal Code. The text of 11.44.020 is:
"Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall be granted all
of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to a driver
of a vehicle, except as to the special regulations of this chapter and
except as to those provisions of this subtitle which by their nature can
have no application."
It's a reasonable law. The laws on hand signals are (fortunately) ambiguous.
I don't believe in giving the old left-hand-down to signal braking on a
bicycle, and while the law requires it during the last 100 feet of deceleration
or turning, it does not mandate it if "both hands are needed to control or
operate the bicycle." Well, I use both hands to stop, and if I had a hand free,
under normal circumstances, it would not be the left.
bluejack
Here's a law I didn't know:
"A person operating a bicycle across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk shall have all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances, but shall yield to pedestrians upon and along a crosswalk. No person operating a bicycle shall suddenly enter a crosswalk into the path of a vehicle which is so close that the driver cannot yield safely."
I could argue that this means I don't have to stop at stop signs because I am crossing at the crosswalk -- so long as I do not jump out in front of moving vehicles.
ngateguy
Here's a law I didn't know:
"A person operating a bicycle across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk shall have all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances, but shall yield to pedestrians upon and along a crosswalk. No person operating a bicycle shall suddenly enter a crosswalk into the path of a vehicle which is so close that the driver cannot yield safely."
I could argue that this means I don't have to stop at stop signs because I am crossing at the crosswalk -- so long as I do not jump out in front of moving vehicles.
Only if you are on the sidewalk not the street and then decide to use a crosswalk and pedestrians are told to stop and look both ways before crossing a street
Stor Mand
Don't blow through lights and whine about being ticketed .. pretty simple.
PriO
Don't blow through lights and whine about being ticketed .. pretty simple.
It's not like he went threw a RED light. It was green. If he was endangering anyone it was himself...pretty simple.
Allister
I guess my concern would be that if you are hitting the light just as it turns green, there are always yo-yo cross-traffic auto drivers who are trying to beat their red (your green), giving a greater chance of broadsiding a late intersection-leaving driver.
Perhaps this is not your situation - around here, drivers are always trying to get through the light even after the yellow.
In which case it should be the yo-yos that get ticketed. It is they, after all, that are going through a red traffic light. By the time a light is green, the cross traffic have had plenty of warning to stop, or clear the intersection if they hit the yellow.
Getting ticketed for going through a green light is too absurd for words. Ok, maybe it's not adviseable, for the reasons Denver states above, to cut it too fine, but it's not illegal.
DnvrFox
In which case it should be the yo-yos that get ticketed. It is they, after all, that are going through a red traffic light. By the time a light is green, the cross traffic have had plenty of warning to stop, or clear the intersection if they hit the yellow.
Getting ticketed for going through a green light is too absurd for words. Ok, maybe it's not adviseable, for the reasons Denver states aove, to cut it too fine, but it's not illegal.
Of course the driver running the red light should get ticketed - I never said otherwise.
My concern was not whether or not it was illegal.
From a defensive riding standpoint, to me it makes no sense to go buzzing through lights that have just turned green when it is possible the intersection has not yet safely cleared. Neither do I drive my car through the intersection without careful checking. There is a maxim in defensive driving courses: "The person (car or whatever) entering the intersection 1st is the one that gets hit."
It is little solace if the car driver gets a ticket when the bicyclist has been hit.
Chris L
Of course the driver running the red light should get ticketed - I never said otherwise.
My concern was not whether or not it was illegal.
From a defensive riding standpoint, to me it makes no sense to go buzzing through lights that have just turned green when it is possible the intersection has not yet safely cleared. Neither do I drive my car through the intersection without careful checking. There is a maxim in defensive driving courses: "The person (car or whatever) entering the intersection 1st is the one that gets hit."
It is little solace if the car driver gets a ticket when the bicyclist has been hit.
I deal with this situation quite a bit, as I have a reputation for "lightening fast traffic-light take-offs" as soon as the blasted thing changes (which takes longer than a Halley's comet sighting around here). However, it's surprisingly easy to tell whether someone is intending to run a red light. Amber lights are wonderful things for gauging someone's intentions. Generally, as soon as someone sees one, they will make up their mind at that moment whether they are going to try to make the light or not. If they accelerate, they'll have a crack, if not, they won't. Either way, it gives me a good 3-4 second window of opportunity, which is quite a long time.
bbarend
What is the general law for a motion light when you as a cyclist cannont trip it? Do you treat the intersection like a stop sign? Stop, look and then resume riding? I cannot find anything about this in my states bicycle laws.
PaulH
What is the law regarding red lights in Seattle? It may be that "hitting the light just as it turns" results in a violation -- being legally within the intersection during part of the red cycle.
If so, my reaction is that it is good that Seattle cops are cracking down on red light runners. More power to them.
Paul
PriO
What is the law regarding red lights in Seattle? It may be that "hitting the light just as it turns" results in a violation -- being legally within the intersection during part of the red cycle.
If so, my reaction is that it is good that Seattle cops are cracking down on red light runners. More power to them.
Paul
That IS good, but too bad he didnt run a red light
Paul L.
[QUOTE=bluejack]
I know I was riding alertly (although not alertly enough to realize I was being tracked by a motorcycle policeman, apparently several blocks back because it took him a while to catch up to me after I turned off Jackson), but to a casual observer it might have seemed that I was being careless, even reckless.
QUOTE]
If he was several blocks back you can argue that he did not have the proper perspective to see whether or not you had actually entered the intersection before it turned green. I think it would be really hard from several blocks back to see if you had actually crossed the crosswalk on red or not.
Stor Mand
It's not like he went threw a RED light. It was green. If he was endangering anyone it was himself...pretty simple.
That IS good, but too bad he didnt run a red light
Even simpler, if you read his initial sentence:
Well, perhaps God is trying to communicate with me somehow, but I was stopped
AGAIN, for blowing a red light AGAIN. ...snipping...
According to that (his own words above), he did blow through a red light. If you are going into an intersection before the light changes and then in changes to green, you are running (or jumping) the light.
Daily Commute
Well, perhaps God is trying to communicate with me somehow, but I was stopped
AGAIN, for blowing a red light AGAIN. . . . Only these past couple of weeks have I ever had any trouble with the police. It must mean something.
You're right. And you're lucky the message came in the form of a ticket instead of a broadside from a truck.
caloso
Well, if we're going to parse bluejack's first post, we should read the entire thing, particularly this part:
I can hit every light just as it turns green. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Unfortunately,
this policeman determined that hitting a light just as it turns green consistutes
blowing a red.
If the light was green when bluejack entered the intersection he is not, cannot, be guilty of running a red light. Maybe we should ask bluejack to state specifically:
Bluejack, was the light green when you entered the intersection?
ngateguy
Call me a cynic and I really do not want to doubt him but with all the dealings I have had with the police in Seattle I have a funny feeling that he may have missed timed one of his lights and was probably in the intersection when the light changed to green. Just call it a hunch since this is not his first post questionoing police motives when running a red light
PriO
Even simpler, if you read his initial sentence:
According to that (his own words above), he did blow through a red light. If you are going into an intersection before the light changes and then in changes to green, you are running (or jumping) the light.
refer to caloso post below yours
Stor Mand
He says he did blow the light in one sentence, insinuated that he jumped the light in another and then says he gets there us it is just changing (in which case, no fault). So which one was it?
Ryan
Why am I not surprised you had to include whats others were doing, and all the other people the police could have got. Take responsibility, he got you not the other person. As soon as you see a redlight you should begin slowing down, because natrually your going to have to stop... So if you show no intentions of stopping, or keep traveling at the same speed, it doesn't matter if you get lucky and it turns green as you go under it.. Let me ask you this, if it didn't turn green would you be able to stop? Most can't thats why your intentions are read as not stopping.
And laggards comment about never seeing a car stopped for running a red is stupid.. Just becauase you don't see it doesn't mean its not happening.. People are murded one after another, but how many murders have you witnessed? Cyclist always complain about wanting to be treated like a vehicle and respected, but then when something like this happens, you say what causes more of a danger a bike or car.. A bike is a vehicle on the road and you have to be responsible to follow laws, and don't complain when your caught disregarding them.
Chris L
What is the general law for a motion light when you as a cyclist cannont trip it? Do you treat the intersection like a stop sign? Stop, look and then resume riding? I cannot find anything about this in my states bicycle laws.
The law in most jurisdictions is that it becomes a "faulty signal" or some similar wording. That being the case, normal give way rules apply (i.e. treat it light a stop sign as you said). However, you might want to make sure the law applies in your state before attempting to use it.
zonatandem
A bicycle is a vehicle and as such must follow the same rules. You can be right and also dead right.
Been hit several times by vehicles, and each time they got the ticket. The law works both ways.
Ride defensively, not recklessly.
bluejack
Did I actually blow a red light? I don't think so, but it would come down to a matter of feet -- and as someone did point out, the policeman was a couple of blocks behind me, so his perspective was probably not the best. When I am going down that hill, I am not actually watching my light, I am watching the amber of the intersection lights, and also the streets themselves, for pedestrians and red-light-running cars. Did amber flip to red before I crossed or during my crossing? I don't think I can say. It may be that according to the letter of the law I did "run a red." In any case, I'll pay the ticket. I have gone through enough red lights in my life (on a bicycle) that I am willing to pay the fine for past transgressions. I figure it will be good for my police karma.
When I said AGAIN I was referring to an incident a couple of weeks ago, when i did get caught (and warned, not ticketed) for blowing a red light (which was legitimately red). In that case it was 1:00 AM on mostly empty roads, the cross street was on yellow with no traffic in sight. I don't say I was riding legally in that case, but I would certainly argue I was riding safely. (Thread Here (http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=58850).)
The point of the post was to share the story, and mark my surprise at having my first two stops by policemen, ever, in my life, happen within weeks of each other. I really don't intend to sound like I am complaining -- the Seattle Police are generally good to me. They were far more helpful when I had a bike stolen than the Philadelphia police ever were. (ie, they listened sympathetically and promised to keep an eye out; philadelphia police would never even respond to the report of a stolen bicycle, and if you went into the station to report it for insurance purposes, they would make you feel like YOU were the criminal, for wasting precious police hours on trivia.)
Ryan
Well also when the cop ran your name in the computer he could have seen that you were warned two weeks earlier. Obviously haven't learned your lesson, so had to do something about it.
LittleBigMan
I can hit every light just as it turns green. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Bing. Unfortunately, this policeman determined that hitting a light just as it turns green consistutes blowing a red.
I thought the only way you could be guilty of running a red light is if the light is red when you enter the intersection.
Only these past couple of weeks have I ever had any trouble with the police. It
must mean something.
It does. It means somebody "important" is complaining.
Better be extra careful (unlike some of the motorists you see everyday) until it blows over. (We wouldn't want you killing a motorist, for Pete's sake.)
LittleBigMan
I guess I'm not the only one who sometimes get his timing wrong.
ngateguy
I guess I'm not the only one who sometimes get his timing wrong.
No your not the difference is we don't complain when we are caught. **** happens you know :D
jinx_removing
He says he did blow the light in one sentence, insinuated that he jumped the light in another and then says he gets there us it is just changing (in which case, no fault). So which one was it?
Hey jack*****, he said he was stopped for running a red light not actually running one!
Chris L
Hey jack*****, he said he was stopped for running a red light not actually running one!
Dude, knock the name-calling off.
catatonic
The law in most jurisdictions is that it becomes a "faulty signal" or some similar wording. That being the case, normal give way rules apply (i.e. treat it light a stop sign as you said). However, you might want to make sure the law applies in your state before attempting to use it.
I do that anyways...if it's not responding, when I am in fact expected to obey it (and thus implies it is required to function for me), then the light is not up to legal requirements and is not a valid light, and therefore can be treated as a stop sign. Last time I got crap for it, I told the cop look...if the light doesnt work, then it's not working properly, and thus is not an active traffic control device, but is now a passive traffic control device....so I'm treating it as one. Usually they drop it and leave at that point...from my understanding filling out forms for a faulty light is an incredible pain in the rump.
vrkelley
FROM ORIGINAL POST ... crack down on cyclists ... judges are lenient on cyclists ... ticketed. $81 ... could have given me a ticket for each of the lights.
BlueJack, Sorry to hear that. I've said this many times and will repeat....
Seattle metro cyclists: You are an EASY target to the police and safer to stop than a crook. So let's be careful out there.
...steps off soap box
Stor Mand
Hey jack*****, he said he was stopped for running a red light not actually running one!
Look everyone .. he tried to hurt me with his words :rolleyes: ... grow up.
So, you say he was "stopped for running a red light not actually running one!". Most here find that he did indeed run the light. Proceeding into an intersection before the light changes is running a red light.
Dude, knock the name-calling off.
Ditto ... uncalled for. But there are a few of your kind out there so what's one more name-caller here, right?
jinx_removing
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. i will try to be more sensitive next time. :rolleyes:
It really makes me angry when people blatantly ignore a post and assume that the poster is doing something wrong just to disagree with them. Why?? What is the point? Do you feel better about yourself?Maybe you are a city commuter and maybe you are not but it seems to me that you are not.
Here is my take on city commuting. When I ride to work in the morning I am just like anybody else on the road, I have a routine. What sets me apart from the average driver is that I have to be alert to all that is around me. Potholes pop up overnight in Boston. After time the route between my house and my work became a meditation. I am so used to doing it that I became aware of the timing of street lights and even up to where certain delivery trucks will be on my route and when. I know when it is safe to do things (not insinuating that I break the law) that I normally wouldn't do on an unfamiliar road. I think in bluejack's case he KNEW that he would be safe as went down that street just making each green light. There is a strecth on So. Huntington in Boston where I do a very similar thing. I can see in all directions and I know that nobody is going to blow that light. I think it was just bad luck on his part. It seems to me that cop was looking to bust you, bluejack.
Maybe there is more to this story that we dont know. Maybe soccer mom with cellphone called you in because she thought you were "reckless" becuase you were riding on the street. In any case I am sorry to hear that you are out $81. I understand your situation and I feel your actions did not warrant a ticket.
Ryan
It the same that goes for yellows... If a light turn yellow and you speed up instead of slowing down you could be stopped, though it doesn't happen often...
ngateguy
BlueJack, Sorry to hear that. I've said this many times and will repeat....
Seattle metro cyclists: You are an EASY target to the police and safer to stop than a crook. So let's be careful out there.
...steps off soap box
You know I must be commuting in a different Seattle. I find the police here very tollerant of commuting cyclists and in the 16 years I have been commuting (year round) in Seattle and now Everett and Snohomish county I have never had ANY grief from the police. Of course I do obey the law when I am on the road and try not to give an "attitude " to the police.
What I do see while I am in Seattle now is more bikes that ignore the laws and ride in very unsafe and illegal manners, much more than in the past. It is amazing as I wait for my bus at Howell and 8th just how many bikes weave in and out of traffic, split lanes to get in front of traffic, run red lights, and riding up the wrong side of the street. All of these are not only illegal, but unsafe and does give us legal and safe riders a bad name.
My judgements I have made by the original poster here is mainly by the attitude he seems to have about the police here, more than anything else. Attitude has a lot to do with how you are going to be treated and he does use the term blow through the light as well as has another thread dedicated to a police officer who was giving him a ticket when he deseved one. He thought the cop had better things to do with his time then give him a ticket. The funny thing was the cops was doing what we as taxpayers pay him to do, HIS JOB!
More interesting than all that, however, was my ride home. After I rode casually through a dead-empty intersection at 1:00 am, and was promptly surrounded by police cars, (Well, 1 car, but he was all over me) it went something like this:
P.O. Why did you just blow through that red light?
Me Well, uh, the crosslight was yellow, and there weren't any cars in either direction.
P.O. You realize that bicycles are subject to--
Me Yeah, yeah, but you asked why I went through.
P.O. So it would be all right if I just drove through a red light if I felt like it?
Me No sir. You're driving a car.
P.O. Do you have some identification, please?
Me Sorta. I hand him my drivers permit which expired about four years ago after I failed the drivers test (driving, not written -- the written was a cinch) for the second time.
While he is in his police car, running my numbers or whatever he does, I bust out laughing with the absurdity of the situation. He's a young cop, probably his first night in a car. I'm about the safest guy on the roads he could possibly stop. If it had been Philadelphia I wouldn't have dared to stop, and could easily have pulled hard up through those vehicle barriers, into the Seattle U. Campus and disappeared. But I have been so lulled by Seattle's law-abiding sensibilities that just stand here laughing.
P.O. Mr. Jackson. Do you know what a track stand is?
Me Yes sir, but this is not a fixed gear bicycle. You can't do a proper track stand with a free wheel.
P.O. (sighing) Well, that's what brakes are for, Mr. Jackson. Do you know what I'm saying?
Me Yes sir. I can go slow, sir.
P.O. -- hands my tattered, expired permit back to me -- alright then.
The police man proceeds to drive along side me for about eight blocks, during which I have to stop at three red lights where the only (potentially) moving vehicles within about eight miles are myself and the police car (and at which I execute near-perfect track stands, despite my lack of a fixed gear). Finally he turns aside, heads back to town. I blow every subsequent red light on the ride home, with my hands in the air, cheering my victory over the law as though I were Lance Armstrong.
Ryan
I doubt you two are in different seattles. You know theres many different cops, their not all the same.. SOme will be in bad moods, some needs to get their stats up or whatever.. Just because you've always been on the good side of the police doesn't mean they always are good with commuters.
Stor Mand
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. i will try to be more sensitive next time. :rolleyes:
... snipping ...
Wow, that seemed so sincere .. thanks, but no hurt feeling here. No need for you to become more sensitive, you already appear to be a little too sensitive.
So, all of us here that think he was wrong, in your opinion, must be jack*****es. As long as only your opinion counts.