Road Cycling - steel frame for tall clyde: yes or no?

I can't seem to get a straight answer on steel frames. I'm 6'6", 285 lb.

One shop said "in your frame size (60+ cm) steel would be too flexy, you need aluminum"
The next shop said "no one is making steel roadies anymore, they're all going aluminum" (Specialized dealer, obviously oblivious to Columbus SLX)
The third shop said what the first did, when I asked. I got the feeling they were just nodding their head.

Arghhh!!! Given my height and weight, I'm being extra cautious with my next purchase. But, I'd like it if I could get the straight scoop. I just want to make an informed purchase. I've read raves about steel and its ride quality. A couple of steel bikes have caught my eye: 2005 Specialized Allez Elite (Columbus SLX) and 2004 Jamis Quest (Reynolds 631).

If steel is a bad idea for a heavy rider in large frames, will someone please educate me?

If what I've been told is bunk, can anyone offer other steel bike suggestions <$1500?

Thanks - this is a great forum, BTW.

Well, you're certainly a big lad at 129kgs. I'm 6ft 3ins, 205lbs and ride a steel bike, so I can certainly say that it would be possible to build a steel bike to fit you, but I doubt there'd be anything decent in your size in a stock bike - especially one that's going to stand up to 285lbs mashing on the pedals. But hey, I could be wrong.

I have a friend with a 72 cm custom Seven. The frame is so huge it looks like it has 24" wheels on it. He's 6'9" but probably around 230 lbs. Titanium is no more flexy than steel and he has no complaints about it. You need to talk to some more shops (giving your location might help some of us recommend one).

I have a 27" (seat tube) 531 steel touring frame. I'm 6'6" and 240 lbs. The frame was made for me with steep angles for the seat and head tubes, but really short chain stays (racing configuration). Barely room for a nickel between the back tire and seat tube. This makes the frame very stiff to compensate for it's height. Then I built low flange, 4-cross wheels to help soften the ride a bit. Good ride for touring, but I dont' think it'd suit for racing. It draws a crowd wherever I go 'cause the seat is as tall as most folk's chests, acutally taller than my great aunt!
Good luck with your search. Maybe custom built is your best bet.

i think i just ordered the bike you should get, bigD.

http://www.gvhbikes.com <- click on "special deals" and read about the Viner Competition. measured center to center with sizes up to 64cm (which has a 61.5cm top tube). It has full Ultegra w/ Ritchey wheels and starts at $1295 + shipping.

I'm 6'4.5" (but skinny) - and i went for the 64cm with a 130mm stem, i'd bet with a longer stem it'd fit you - and they exchange stems if it turns out you want a longer/shorter one. Gary Hobbs, the guy who runs gvh, gets respect from ppl on this board.

i also looked at the Jamis Quest (which is a similar value), but Jamis doesn't make anything over a 61cm. The Specialized doesn't appeal to me because I want classic geometry.

feel free to write me a priv msg, and if you're not ordering in the next week i'll come back to this thread and update you when my bike has been delivered, assembled and ridden.

steel would be plenty strong for someone your size, might want to talk w/ Gary about some sort of bomb-proof wheel upgrade or how many spokes or something, but i think this is your best bet. i searched high and low for a steel bike in that pricerange avail in a 63-64cm frame and this is the _only one i found.

For any tube, the stiffness comes mainly from the diameter of the tube, then from the wall thickness, then from the material. Diameter is far and away the most significant factor.
A big guy needs a large frame, made with longer tubes. For any diameter tube, long tubes are bendier than short tubes. To resist this bending, a large frame should be made with fatter tubing than a med frame.

By fortunate co-incidence, Al works best in fat tubes. The extra metal you need to maintain the strength of the tube wall is quite light, compared to a steel tube of similar diameter.

Hence the concept that Al frames are better for big guys than steel.

These days you can get fatter steel tubing, so the concept is not quite as valid as it was a few years ago, but it is still useful.

Al frames have a reputation for being harsh and stiff. This is mainly from the use of fat tubes in smaller frames.

The compact style geometry uses a rear-sloping top tube. This results in a smaller triangle and a stiffer design. Its a good idea esp for big frames.

thanks for the replies

I measured myself (no laughing) and wrenchscience.com recommends a 60cm (c to c) and an OAR of 76.39cm. Doing some looking, there are some bikes that would be close, but a 130mm stem would leave me 30mm short. How long of a stem can one buy? I'm sure I could get one machined, though.

I'll get my wife to measure me (now, she will laugh) more accurately and we'll see if anything changes.

Also, is there any type of steel that would be more desireable than another for my needs (Reynolds vs. Columbus, 631, SLX, 853, etc)?

OK, Clyde, you asked for it.

Read on, Brotha.

http://www.bohemianbicycles.com/materials%20science.htm

you should use ONLY steel or ti.

dude, you're an inch and a half taller than me is all! well, that and a hunded pounds heavier.

i honestly think that the Viner Competition with a 15cm stem would sort you out nicely. might even be too long for you really.

and steel is plenty strong - again i'd look into some extra strength in the wheels maybe but i really don't think a 64cm c-c frame is going to need custom larger tubes or anything.

custom bikes or having parts machined - there's no way that's an option at <$1500

call gary at GVH and ask him whether he thinks that would be a good fit for you.

going custom will add a $1000 to your target budget straight off, easy.

you don't live near DC do you? you could come visit/test ride mine once it gets here.

btw, i did the fit chart at http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO and my results were as follows (i went for the largest size Viner anyway - closest to the "French Fit" below - because I currently ride a bike with a 59cm top tube and a 145mm stem and it feels like i could go a bit longer):


Measurements
-------------------------------------------
Inseam: 92
Trunk: 70
Forearm: 36.5
Arm: 77.5
Thigh: 65.5
Lower Leg: 61
Sternal Notch: 160


The Competitive Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 59.6 - 60.1
Seat tube range c-t: 61.4 - 61.9
Top tube length: 59.1 - 59.5
Stem Length: 12.6 - 13.2
BB-Saddle Position: 84.0 - 86.0
Saddle-Handlebar: 59.7 - 60.3
Saddle Setback: 7.0 - 7.4
Seatpost Type: NON-SETBACK


The Eddy Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 60.8 - 61.3
Seat tube range c-t: 62.6 - 63.1
Top tube length: 59.1 - 59.5
Stem Length: 11.5 - 12.1
BB-Saddle Position: 83.2 - 85.2
Saddle-Handlebar: 60.5 - 61.1
Saddle Setback: 8.2 - 8.6
Seatpost Type: SETBACK


The French Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 62.5 - 63.0
Seat tube range c-t: 64.3 - 64.8
Top tube length: 60.3 - 60.7
Stem Length: 11.7 - 12.3
BB-Saddle Position: 81.5 - 83.5
Saddle-Handlebar: 62.2 - 62.8
Saddle Setback: 7.7 - 8.1
Seatpost Type: SETBACK

that's funny about the dealer cause last time i checked specialized makes a chro-mo allez

Being a strong/tall rider, here was my reasoning for getting my Eclipse.

From the Reynolds website:

Reynolds 853 - heat treated
UTS: 81 - 91 Tsi, 180 - 210 Ksi,
1250 - 1450 MPa

STEEL IS REAL !

This seamless air-hardening steel tube sets new standards for professional cycle frames and proves that steel still has a future at the highest levels. It is suitable for TIG welding and brazing, using lugged or lugless construction. The production process ensures tight tolerance, gauge tubes. The strength to weight ratio of 853 is close to that of quality titanium frames. A normal chrome molybdenum steel will lose strength in the joints after the heat has been applied.

This material (853) INCREASES in strength as the frame cools to strengths well in excess of the delivered values shown above. This unique air hardening property of Reynolds 853 provides additional stiffness through reduced microyielding at the joints, allowing stiffer frames with excellent fatigue strength (when compared to standard chrome molybdenum) and a superior ride quality from the finished frame. On road and touring frames we recommend the use of 631 or 725 fork blades with 853 frames.

We offer this tube set in many sizes for custom framebuilders, and is suitable for lightweight frames, strong/tall riders and has also been specified for free-ride and BMX frames due to its' high impact strength.

Ditto what Boze said. I have the Viner Comp with open pros, 36 spokes in back, 32 in front. I'm 245# and 6'3" and have no problems at all. It depends on the bike, I bought an aluminum bike and had to return it due to flexing. Steel bikes are WAY more comfortable by the way.

Don't forget to check out Lennard Zinn Cycles (http://www.zinncycles.com/). He makes custom frames for "larger" people. They might be able to steer you in the right direction.

Michael W. is dead-on right.

Shopping doesn't cost anything, and it seems to me that the best production frameset for you is Cannondale's 66cm. As far as I know, you simply can't beat it for top tube length and height for a production frameset. Without both, you can't get the handlebars far enough away and high enough. The status of the frameset has apparently changed over the years: some years you could get it built up into a bike, usually Shimano 105, and some years it has been a special-order frameset. My advice would be to go to a Cannondale dealer and get a catalog, and while you are there ask about the price of a 66cm frameset built up into a bike. The shop can get a good deal on a whole kit, so it might make your price range.

How about those wimpy steel framesets? As far as I know it is true. You can't make a steel frameset as stiff as a 6061-T6 or 7005 frameset without making the diameters nearly the same, and you have to use enough material to keep the wall thickness great enough to prevent denting, dimpling, and tube failure. And that means a substantial weight penalty in comparison with the lower density aluminum.

I am a wispy, shrunken fellow of 6'2" or so, 190 lbs. When I was younger I was 6'3", and had delusions of racery. In a sprint, my Reynold's 531 frameset bottom bracket would flex an inch each way. Now the bottom bracket (not the seat tube) is cracked most of the way around the seat tube, and it only is used on the trainer in the winter. Ten years ago I switched to Cannondales. The present version with the shaped and butted and curved tubes and the CF fork is really nice. Cannondale's R&D and engineering budgets are spread across a large amount of product, so the cost is arguably only moderate for what you are getting.

You will do well on any road bike, but you will do even better if you take steps proportional to your leg length, and that means longer crankarms. I like 5.3mm of crankarm length per inch of inseam in flat shoes. Keep right on shopping and ask Lennard Zinn about long crankarms.

Did anybody point out that a 60cm frame is WAY too small for you? Sorry I don't have time to read all the posts, but I'm 6'4", and I ride a 64 or 65 at least. If your bike shop has even hinted that you can ride a 60, you need a new LBS for two reasons: They're steering you hugely wrong on the size (just wait--they're going to have a "great deal" in stock on a leftover 60 that, wow, is JUST WHAT YOU NEED) and not understanding frame materials.
.

If you are interested in a Jamis Quest, Performance had a good deal on it, others were willing to get rid of it for under a Grand ('04 only). I couldn't get it in my sife (I am on the opposite ends of the spectrum). Think the specs on it were Reynolds 631. Saw plenty of Reynolds 853 frames, wish I could remember some models for you. Maybe the Bianchi Veloce, Fuji etc. I would go with steel, from what I have read.

Hth.

Oh, the longer the frame, the more flex or dampening. I don't know how it affects other materials, Aluminum, Ti etc. I would guess it's the same so it may not be an issue.

Helped design a custom tandem for a fellow 6'7", spouse 5'3".
Custom crankarms by Durham of 220mm + a higher bottom bracket.
Custom is more $$.
The big C'dale may be the way to go.

Which C-Dale model, or frameset, are you guys talking about? I took a look and can't seem to find it.

you're getting plenty of replies at least, but some of them are off the mark:

in particular, the jamis quest is not an option because Jamis doesn't make _any road bikes larger than a 61cm.

also, folks keep trying to plug for custom - but you'll have add $1000-1500 to your budget if you wanna go that route - more if you want something other than steel.

It's real, and it was offered at least as recently as last year. I know because I have last year's catalog. But about the only way to find out about it is to look in a catalog in the back pages in the table of road bike frame dimensions according to size. There it is listed with an asterisk, and down at the bottom of the page it will say "special order frameset."

i don't know how anyone could recoment you ride on aluminum.. a guy in the ss forums just had his langster break not long after he got it. he was about your size.

well if my Viner Competition wasn't big enough for ya then here's a way out without going custom:
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=63158