Foo - How do you call out someone for using logical fallacies in informal class debates?

I'm coming across this quite often in my communications class. The class is full of people who like to say "feel good" things but are often riddled with fallacies, particularly appeal to popular opinion.

I once called this girl out and since she didnt even know what I was talking about, kept rambling about the topic.

What is a good way to point this out to people who havent taken a basic logic class?

Is it relevant to class? If not, then grit you teeth and ignore. If so, then mention to teacher and maybe he/she will cover some basic logic/argument structure.

Holler "YOU LIE" and throw something....

I shoot first and ask questions second.

Two feet of garden hose and a claw hammer.

Is it relevant to class? If not, then grit you teeth and ignore. If so, then mention to teacher and maybe he/she will cover some basic logic/argument structure.

Isnt logic always relevant in a debate? Otherwise its basically trolling in real life...Right?

I would use sarcasm first and then resort to the cleansing power of fire. Or get a Picard face mask and a Michael Jackson glove.

strong trolls in thread.

Anyone have a serious reply?

strong trolls in thread.

Anyone have a serious reply?

umm....dude, this is foo. WTH did you ask a question here expecting a serious answer?
You might have a better chance in Trollheim.

umm....dude, this is foo. WTH did you ask a question here expecting a serious answer?
You might have a better chance in Trollheim.

Unlikely :innocent:

umm....dude, this is foo. WTH did you ask a question here expecting a serious answer?
You might have a better chance in Trollheim.

Because it is off-topic. Where else would I post this? Road cycling forum? Get real bro.

Because it is off-topic. Where else would I post this? Road cycling forum? Get real bro.

P&R is your best bet for a serious response (which you should already know).

OK real answer, You already answered you question yourself. You debate with logic. If the others are being illogical or idiotic, you call them on it, and then move on.

Unlikely :innocent:

Party Pooper.

Anyone have a serious reply?

Learn your teacher first your subject second.

If feel good fluff is what your professor wants to hear learn to be a parrot.
If not, KT's advice is the route to take.

i didn't think there was such a s thing as a Basic Logic Class. You either understand logic or you dont. And then you go to an Advanced Logic Class. I suppose by it's very nature, a logic class will be advanced by default and hence only appeal to those who are logical in the first place

Sadly, welcome to America and Reality TV?

The old socratic method sometimes works if you can get a rambler to hush.

Start with "What do you mean?" Then go to "How do you know that?" Finish with "SO What? It is meant to make a person think, not just to insult. Since many Americans resist honest thought, you may be viewed as insulting.

Sadly, welcome to America and Reality TV?

The old socratic method sometimes works if you can get a rambler to hush.

Start with "What do you mean?" Then go to "How do you know that?" Finish with "SO What? It is meant to make a person think, not just to insult. Since many Americans resist honest thought, you may be viewed as insulting.

If that is all you say, with no explanation, you are being rude. You will sound like Hanna.

Learn your teacher first your subject second.

If feel good fluff is what your professor wants to hear learn to be a parrot.
If not, KT's advice is the route to take.

This

Holler "YOU LIE" and throw something....


+1 on the throwing

Holler "YOU LIE" and throw something....

I really have to agree with this.. its the only way it can be done :p

Seriously, i would go with the what do you mean? how do you know that? and so what? questioning.. knowing me it would probably come out very sarcastically. Best would probably to give a little explanation and or just keep your tone in check and i think you should be fine with that :D

Sadly, welcome to America and Reality TV?

The old socratic method sometimes works if you can get a rambler to hush.

Start with "What do you mean?" Then go to "How do you know that?" Finish with "SO What? It is meant to make a person think, not just to insult. Since many Americans resist honest thought, you may be viewed as insulting.

This "debate" happens in a classroom setting so I cant just say blurt out "how do you know that?" "so what?". I have to raise my hand and address the person when called.

I took a philosophy class, "Philosophy and Public Affairs" and even in that class we saw little other than mere opinions, however, that class had a considerably higher intelligence than this class(no offense to communications majors).

Would it be tactful(sp) to email the professor and address my concerns and asks what is expected of us?

6 bars of soap in a pillowcase.

Confound them with transcendental mumblings.

Logic doesn't apply to anyone still in college. Try beer instead.

Because it is off-topic. Where else would I post this? Road cycling forum? Get real bro.
Get over yourself dude....this Foo and what 99% of Foo is all about. You want a serious reply without the funny ones, try a school forum or something.

try a school forum or something.

lol wut. Next time you post anything not related to bicycles I'm going to ask you to visit the approriate forum. Off-topic is off-topic brah.

To others, thanks for the replies I got a better feel for what I should do.

You are posting in FOO (which is the appropriate place for a non-bicycling related question), but if you spend any time in FOO you know that getting a serious answer is few and far between. Don't post in a place known for its silliness then get angry because you didn't get a serious answer (which I was one of the few who did give a serious answer, btw).


lol wut. Next time you post anything not related to bicycles I'm going to ask you to visit the approriate forum. Off-topic is off-topic brah.

To others, thanks for the replies I got a better feel for what I should do.

You are posting in FOO (which is the appropriate place for a non-bicycling related question), but if you spend any time in FOO you know that getting a serious answer is few and far between. Don't post in a place known for its silliness then get angry because you didn't get a serious answer (which I was one of the few who did give a serious answer, btw).

far from angry brah. If you want to troll, it sounds like the rest of the Foo is accomodating to your need...Right? So I ask you to troll elsewhere.

Thanks.

KT is one of the least trollish of the foo clan.

Time to employ *ignore user* again! I can't tolerate the stupidity.


far from angry brah. If you want to troll, it sounds like the rest of the Foo is accomodating to your need...Right? So I ask you to troll elsewhere.

Thanks.

Not worth an argument over.

When posting in Foo, one should expect the flip and silly, along with the serious. 'tis the nature of the place.

Seriously, this is foo where "serious" doesn't actually occur that often.

On to the subject at hand (or keyboard as the case may be). You have 2 options of which the first is the better.

1) Get over it. Not everyone you meet will have your logic skills and/or mental acuity. If those folks can't argue except in fallacious ways, then you will NEVER be able to debate with them in a logical manner. I have a sister in law with this irritating habit and even a simple discussion is impossible. My solution is to just not talk to her except about the weather or food. Which encompasses 2 of the three subjects she can speak 4 sentences about. (The other being babies with the same 4 sentence limit.)

2) Fail the class because you aren't proceeding with the proper protocols and arguments. If the instructor is allowing this to occur then it is a proper debate methodology for use in the class. If you aren't doing it, you're doing something wrong.

Seriously, this is foo where "serious" doesn't actually occur that often.

On to the subject at hand (or keyboard as the case may be). You have 2 options of which the first is the better.

1) Get over it. Not everyone you meet will have your logic skills and/or mental acuity. If those folks can't argue except in fallacious ways, then you will NEVER be able to debate with them in a logical manner. I have a sister in law with this irritating habit and even a simple discussion is impossible. My solution is to just not talk to her except about the weather or food. Which encompasses 2 of the three subjects she can speak 4 sentences about. (The other being babies with the same 4 sentence limit.)

2) Fail the class because you aren't proceeding with the proper protocols and arguments. If the instructor is allowing this to occur then it is a proper debate methodology for use in the class. If you aren't doing it, you're doing something wrong.

good tips thanks

Poo and sex.

Page 2.

I'm disappointed in everyone.

Just remember, your arguments may be like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After awhile you realize the pig likes it...

Get over it...

i didn't think there was such a s thing as a Basic Logic Class. You either understand logic or you dont. And then you go to an Advanced Logic Class. I suppose by it's very nature, a logic class will be advanced by default and hence only appeal to those who are logical in the first place

I disagree.

We get in the habit, either by watching too much crap TV or by our nature (based on human history, I'd say almost as much the latter as the former), of thinking in ways that aren't supportable by logic. Even generally reasonable people do this. Basic logic classes explain the foundations of a logical argument (completeness, consistency, avoiding leaps, etc) and identify common logical fallacies. The result is that the student is more aware of their own thought processes, especially when they may be following a fallacy, and more able to construct a legitimate argument (even if their starting point may and often is still flawed).

Reflecting back on my education, I'm quite aware of this kind of change in mindset, partially as a result of my philosophy classes, but more a result of my math classes.

does anyone else keep trying to read these narrow posts as poetry and get confused by the poor scansion?

Start off with "(insert her name here), you ignorant ****." - from an old SNL skit.

I disagree. Threads asking for serious replies almost always get them. There are joke replies as well, but not exclusively.Yes, you get a few serious replies with lots of funny replies thrown in, hence the "few and far between" comment. At least that's my recollection.

Wow, I have no idea what any of you are talking about.

Wow, I have no idea what any of you are talking about.

*peeks in, looks around*

For real, huh?

And for the record, Ovoleg can be just as snarky as the rest of y'all if need be. Why don't we respect the guy and help him with a few angles here, okay? Thanks.

*leaves*

*peeks in, looks around*

For real, huh?

And for the record, Ovoleg can be just as snarky as the rest of y'all if need be. Why don't we respect the guy and help him with a few angles here, okay? Thanks.

*leaves*

who are you?

*peeks in, looks around*

For real, huh?
It just reminds me of listening to my wife's fellow grad students talk and argue about who-knows-what and it turns out to be empty extra air being consumed.

Or something like that.

Give enough rope and they hang themselves. You could probably facilitate it by forcing them to follow there logic to it's conclusion which if there argument is fallacious so ought to be there conclusion.How's that for a real answer?

For the fake answer?
Pepper Spray and a fog horn. Use the fog horn first so they look toward you. It's a classic rooky mistake to do it the other way around.

Thanks for the tips guys!

Of course there are basic logic classes. Every philosophy department offers introduction to logic. Logic isn't innate, it's something that is taught, studied, and mastered, like any other academic subject.

But to answer the OP's question, I would use socratic irony. Essentially, you act dumb and say that you are confused by the argument. Each part of the syllogism is testable; ask "stupid" questions to make her walk you through the argument. When she can't, you expose the flaw without appearing argumentative, just curious.

Of course there are basic logic classes. Every philosophy department offers introduction to logic. Logic isn't innate, it's something that is taught, studied, and mastered, like any other academic subject.

But to answer the OP's question, I would use socratic irony. Essentially, you act dumb and say that you are confused by the argument. Each part of the syllogism is testable; ask "stupid" questions to make her walk you through the argument. When she can't, you expose the flaw without appearing argumentative, just curious.

Great advice, thanks. I did this to the instructor the other day and she just paused for a few minutes to think then said "ok I'm not sure, lets move on"...But the instructor is far more logical than some of the people in the class.

There's a guy using socratic irony on our neighborhood listserv right now and he comes across as sullenly passive-aggressive. That can be modulated better in face-to-face communication I am sure.

Well, that's an issue. If not done with the right tone, you can come off passive-agressive, smart-assy, or just stupid.

who are you?

And what have you done with Siu Blue Wind?

Would it be tactful(sp) to email the professor and address my concerns and asks what is expected of us?
You will identify yourself as a kook by doing so.

Just so you're aware of how this might look to your prof and classmates, pretty much every class has someone who wants to set everyone else straight. Sometimes these people are smart, good at identifying flaws in logic, and can express ideas articulately. Usually, they're dismissed as a PITA whether or not they're right. You may be that person.

Unless formal logic is part of the class, I wouldn't worry about how logical or illogical people are. You didn't say what the subject of the class was beyond communications, but part of the game is to get people to listen to your ideas in first place. If you turn people off, it doesn't matter how smart you are -- you will be marginalized now and later in life.

In response to your original question, be short, concise, and correct. If you're really doing things the right way, others will notice and try to emulate them.