Touring - one week's touring,one saddlebag.

how would you go about packing a carradice camper saddle bag for a one week's tour.
this is a camping tour covering around 300 miles proberly 50 miles a day.
so is it possible to stay dry and warm both cycling and resting useing just the one bag,
will i get everything i need into it or am i dreaming.
i do have rear ortlieb panniers ,but if i can cut down my packing list enough ,
well you know were im going with this.
any thoughts.

If you are taking a sleepinng bag, then you will need more carrying capacity for your other belongings than just the one bag.

Umm... revisit Nun`s packing list? (if you can find it with the improved search function) How many bags did he end up with?

I considered it once since I used a Camper saddlebag for my commute. But once I started loading it up I quickly ran out of room and switched to my panniers. Probably would have been feasible by lashing big items (tent, sleeping bag) to the outside of the Camper. But that would have made it very inconvenient to get to anything without unpacking everything else.

thank's folks i do use the s/bag all the time for around town and longish spins..i was thinking of packing most item's in coloured dry bags so as i could get to them pretty quick.ah i think i'll be useing my panniers ,just thought i would ask thanks anyway.

I see you made up your mind already, but out of curiosity: what do you plan to use for shelter and cooking? That stuff (sleeping pad, bag, stove, fuel, tent) takes up a lot of space quickly.

--J

I think this is really a question of how little gear it takes for you to survive. I say "survive" because from the nature of your question, this isn't about what it takes for you to be comfortable. The question you pose is difficult to answer since you've left it to us to guess about what gear you think you'll need.

For me, I'd need four fairly full panniers to "survive" a week's camping because I am going to try to be as comfortable as possible. So, for example, where I demand a pillow, you may be willing to do without.

Why don't you provide a packing list...I'd be interested to see how minimal you intend to travel.

Lay out all of the gear you plan to take and see if it fits. If not, see what you can do without. If it still doesn't fit, go to Plan B.

yes i can see how you think it was a daft question to ask ,ok maybe i could get away with it for a weekend trip but a week would be pushing it.i normally carry my tent hilleberg akto on the rear rack ,but everything else is in both panniers.all the gear i have is lightweight dosent take up to much room ,but my cloths does.no forget i asked that question ,i also need my comfort after a hard day's cycling guess i could survive the cycling but not the comfort.

It is easy to do, but it won't be comfortable or smell nice.

Bring one summer sleeping bag. Should be about 1.5 lbs and pack down to a bit bigger than a Nalgene.

Bring the smallest siltarp you can find. Should weigh next to nothing and be able to pack up with your sleeping bag.

Bring a light down jacket to wear when you are sleeping or not riding. Should weigh less than a lb and pack up to very small.

Bring a toque. This is a warm hat.

If you expect it to be less than 50 deg, bring some leg warmers.

Bring tour bicycle stuff (patch kit, tube, pump, tire lever).

Bring a flash light.

Bring some cash or a credit card.

That is it.

You wear your single set of riding cloths all the time. If it rains you will get wet, but riding should keep you warm. You sleep in your sleeping bag and put the tarp up if it rains. Put the jacket and hat on if it gets cold at night. Eat at grocery stores or gas stations using your cash or credit card. Alternatively, ditch everything but the credit card and you can sleep in a motel every night.

yes i can see how you think it was a daft question to ask ,ok maybe i could get away with it for a weekend trip but a week would be pushing it.i normally carry my tent hilleberg akto on the rear rack ,but everything else is in both panniers.all the gear i have is lightweight dosent take up to much room ,but my cloths does.no forget i asked that question ,i also need my comfort after a hard day's cycling guess i could survive the cycling but not the comfort.

Seems to me that the weight difference between a touring bike (pretty heavy to begin with) carrying a minimalist load (enough to survive) and a the same bike carrying a "full touring load" would not be that great.

For example, my bike weighs in at 31 pounds with racks only. Four full panniers (carrying what I'd describe as enough to let me camp and cook comfortably) weighs in at 33 pounds...for a total weight of 64 pounds. If I could shed half the weight and get down to two panniers, I'm still left with 48 pounds...no lightweight bike by any means. Add my 220 pounds and the comparison is now 284 pounds vs. 268 pounds. Climbing might be a tad easier with the "half load", but I'd still have about the same wind resistance, so pedaling on the flats would be the same.

To me, it's just not worth it to leave things like pillows, a book, "walking around clothes", a second pair of shoes, etc. back at the ranch. For anything over a couple of days, if it fits, I'm taking it.

Seems to me that the weight difference between a touring bike (pretty heavy to begin with) carrying a minimalist load (enough to survive) and a the same bike carrying a "full touring load" would not be that great.

For example, my bike weighs in at 31 pounds with racks only. Four full panniers (carrying what I'd describe as enough to let me camp and cook comfortably) weighs in at 33 pounds...for a total weight of 64 pounds. If I could shed half the weight and get down to two panniers, I'm still left with 48 pounds...no lightweight bike by any means. Add my 220 pounds and the comparison is now 284 pounds vs. 268 pounds. Climbing might be a tad easier with the "half load", but I'd still have about the same wind resistance, so pedaling on the flats would be the same.

To me, it's just not worth it to leave things like pillows, a book, "walking around clothes", a second pair of shoes, etc. back at the ranch. For anything over a couple of days, if it fits, I'm taking it.

bobframe i have to agree with you on this ,the reason i asked the question in the first place,
as you know im sure, you can pack quiet a lot of gear into a carradice camper bag,i think it's there
biggest bag,but your 100% correct on the actual cycling you only feel the weight on hills.
so i'll stick to my rear panniers /barbag i do like my comfort,maybe if i were in my 20's i would
give it a go.

how would you go about packing a carradice camper saddle bag for a one week's tour.
this is a camping tour covering around 300 miles proberly 50 miles a day.
so is it possible to stay dry and warm both cycling and resting useing just the one bag,
will i get everything i need into it or am i dreaming.
i do have rear ortlieb panniers ,but if i can cut down my packing list enough ,
well you know were im going with this.
any thoughts.

I have to wade in..........
To do this with just a saddlebag you'll have to adopt Igor Kovse's ultralight approach

http://www2.arnes.si/~ikovse/weight.htm

If you use a bivy and bubble wrap for a pad you'll be able to get everything in a Camper. If you are prepared to use a handlebar bag and strap things to the seat and the outside of the bag you can take reasonably luxurious stuff like a Big Agnes pad and single walled tent. Here's my latest setup. I decided to see if I could remove the 2 small racks that I used last summer and replace them with a single Carradice Bagman, here's the result.

http://wheelsofchance.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/l_1600_1200_bdfaf468-559d-41dc-a563-fc5830048fc5.jpeg

My saddlebag is a Nelson Longflap so it's smaller than the Camper. I have everything to be comfortable, walking around clothes, a change of shoes and a Trangia based cooking kit

Seems to me that the weight difference between a touring bike (pretty heavy to begin with) carrying a minimalist load (enough to survive) and a the same bike carrying a "full touring load" would not be that great.

For example, my bike weighs in at 31 pounds with racks only. Four full panniers (carrying what I'd describe as enough to let me camp and cook comfortably) weighs in at 33 pounds...for a total weight of 64 pounds. If I could shed half the weight and get down to two panniers, I'm still left with 48 pounds...no lightweight bike by any means. Add my 220 pounds and the comparison is now 284 pounds vs. 268 pounds. Climbing might be a tad easier with the "half load", but I'd still have about the same wind resistance, so pedaling on the flats would be the same.

To me, it's just not worth it to leave things like pillows, a book, "walking around clothes", a second pair of shoes, etc. back at the ranch. For anything over a couple of days, if it fits, I'm taking it.

This is an age old debate; why bother reducing your load when the percentage weight gains are small? Well I think you have made a few assumptions that are not necessarily correct. First the bike doesn't need to be a "heavy" touring bike, you can go with a sport tourer. My Rambouillet is 23lbs. Next you can be very comfortable with 20 to 25lbs of gear. My sweet spot is around 45lbs for the loaded bike which means I can easily lift the bike up over obstacles and up stairs. It also makes climbing (and cycling in general) a lot more enjoyable. Is 45lbs that much less than 68lbs, well not if you include the weight of the rider, but when you're trying to manhandle your gear through customs or lift your bike over a fence it makes a big difference. Some of this might be psychological, but I just feel quick on the Ram with a lightweight set up and 100 mile days are not that intimidating.

how would you go about packing a carradice camper saddle bag for a one week's tour.
this is a camping tour covering around 300 miles proberly 50 miles a day.
so is it possible to stay dry and warm both cycling and resting useing just the one bag,
will i get everything i need into it or am i dreaming.
i do have rear ortlieb panniers ,but if i can cut down my packing list enough ,
well you know were im going with this.
any thoughts.

Maybe the first part of the OP's question is getting short shrift. I mean, one can endure a lot more for one week than one can for a month.

What one considers essential for cycle touring can engender some pretty emotional debate. But often we fly off the handle before we settle on what constitutes cycle touring for the sake of the discussion. Fair weather, short duration, populated; plenty of stores, bike shops, restaurants, and motels? Shoulder season, long duration, remote; where food and water for several days needs to be carried; bears?

Of course, there are experienced (and tough!) cycle tourists who are competent to take minimal gear in the latter situation. But a newbie copying a UL kit and only taking what is on a UL gear list is settting him/herself up for trouble. They can't sleep when they use bubble wrap so they buy a Thermarest. They find that they are getting too cold and wet while riding so they buy a rain suit. Etc, etc. Then they have no place to stash the stuff they bought!

For off-road multi-month touring, my weight (including 4 panniers) is just less than 50 lbs. I have bridged every ounce to an UL gear list and have found that most of the incremental weight is due to my tent, the racks themselves, the panniers themselves, and then a bunch of stuff that keeps me from depending on the local populace like tools, first aid kit, cooking gear etc. I guess I've just not been lucky while on tour as I have needed everything I have brought at least once, and sometimes if I didn't have the item I would have had to abandon my tour - even if only to hitch to a bike shop.

Nun, I have no doubt that you happliy and competently tour with the rig you pictured above. Over the years I have valued your contributions to the forum and have appreciated the direct responses that you have given my own questions. But do you really think that your setup is preferable for most of the cycle tourists you run into? Or can you really say that when on the road that you haven't occassionally longed for some of he ammenities carried by your more heavily laden fellow tourers?

When UL cycle tourers talk to me before they zoom by me, they look askance at my 4 panniers and boast how they have been able to get their weight down to a fraction of mine. When I catch up to them at a campground, they continue prosthelytizing about the merits of UL as I cook dinner and they much their power bars. (Are you gonna eat that, man?) In the morning, I'm packed up and headed out while they emerge from under their tarp complaining about how they were unable to sleep.

Now my intent is not to dis those who really do cycle tour UL. I just want to make the point that (nun, please correct me if I am wrong) successful UL touring (and fully loaded touring for that matter) is the result of finding a personal sweet spot between cycling effort, speed, comfort, risk avoidance, and luck, and is something that everyone should find for themselves before they are marooned somewhere.

Nun, I have no doubt that you happliy and competently tour with the rig you pictured above. Over the years I have valued your contributions to the forum and have appreciated the direct responses that you have given my own questions. But do you really think that your setup is preferable for most of the cycle tourists you run into? Or can you really say that when on the road that you haven't occassionally longed for some of he ammenities carried by your more heavily laden fellow tourers?

When UL cycle tourers talk to me before they zoom by me, they look askance at my 4 panniers and boast how they have been able to get their weight down to a fraction of mine. When I catch up to them at a campground, they continue prosthelytizing about the merits of UL as I cook dinner and they much their power bars. (Are you gonna eat that, man?) In the morning, I'm packed up and headed out while they emerge from under their tarp complaining about how they were unable to sleep.


Some good observations and here are my responses. I certainly don't think the way I tour is appropriate for everyone, but I do think that many people would enjoy how it feels to carry a bit less stuff. I don't consider my set up as UL as I have a sleeping pad, a tent (single walled) and a stove. My philosophy is to do "fully laden" as lightly as possible so I don't do bubble wrap, I'm using a 24 oz sleeping pad (I could get something lighter now) and my big 4, tent, sleeping bag, pad and cooking stuff come in at 5lbs. I like my comfort both on and off the bike, so I decided to use UL gear to lighten my load to make the cycling more fun while keeping 95% of the comfort of fully laden tourists.......that's the goal anyway I just want my cake, and to eat it too.

how would you go about packing a carradice camper saddle bag for a one week's tour.
this is a camping tour covering around 300 miles proberly 50 miles a day.
so is it possible to stay dry and warm both cycling and resting useing just the one bag,
will i get everything i need into it or am i dreaming.
i do have rear ortlieb panniers ,but if i can cut down my packing list enough ,
well you know were im going with this.
any thoughts.


Here's what I would pack for a 3 season tour of indefinite length

NELSON LONGFLAP SADDLEBAG
Hudson River quilt by Jacks R Better, http://www.jacksrbetter.com
Insulated Sleeping Pad by Big Agnes, strapped to top of saddlebag
Trangia stove, http://www.trangia.se
Antigravity gear solo pot set (minus pepsi can stove), http://www.antigravitygear.com
Denatured Alcohol
Ti Spork
BIC Lighter
50 feet Cord
Convertible Long Pants by Exofficio, http://www.exofficio.com
Touring Shorts, by Rapha, http://www.rapha.cc
Wool Long Underwear by Smartwool,http://www.smartwool.com
Padded cycling Underwear by Andiamo
Long Sleeve T-Shirt, Smartwool
Long Sleeve buttoned Shirt
Socks by Smartwool
Tai Chi shoes, http://www.gungfu.com/htm-apparel/shoes/apparel-shoes-kung-fu-basic-tai-chi.htm
Bike Cable Lock
Multitool
2 x Kevlar Spokes
Chain Lube
2 x inner tubes
Pump
2 x Patch Kits
Tire boots, Park
2x Powerlink, SRAM
Brake cable
Gear cable
Misc Nuts and Bolts wrapped in rag
4x AA batteries
Plastic Bags
Duct tape
Dehydrated soup and Raman noodles
Honey
Couscous
Tea bags

RIVENDELL BRAND V HANDLEBAR BAG
Stowaway rain jacket, Rapha
Leatherman, Juice
Umbrella
Gloves
Neck gaiter, Smartwool
Beanie wool hat, Smartwool
Over shoes
Bic Razor
Skin Cream
Sunscreen
Microfiber Towel
Shampoo
Toothpaste and Brush
DEET
Dental Floss
Toilet Paper
Wallet
Map
notebook and pen
First Aid Kit
Sewing kit
small FM radio
iPhone, with charger (thinking about getting a solar charger)
snacks, fig newtons etc

CLOTHING WORN
Padded Underpants, Andiamo
Long Sleeve T-Shirt, Smartwool
Cycling Knickers, Rapha
Socks, Smartwool
Cycling Shoes, Shimano MO76
Cycling cap, Rapha
Bandana, REI

STRAPPED UNDER SADDLE
Tent, Contrail by Tarptent http://www.tarptent.com

ON BIKE
2x 1 Litre water bottles
Front and rear lights
1x cateye computer
Carradice Expedition Bagman

what a fantastic list of gear,a lot of the stuff i also carry were you differ is mainly cloth's type and amount.in the next few week's im going to try out this packing list,if it works im still left with a problem the bike .my thorn sherpa is a great bike but it's way to heavy for light touring,i would be looking to trade maybe and getting much lighter road bike 700 wheel's,i do have a fantastic look kx light carbon bike but i dont think it would work somehow.

anto,
sounds like you are thinking of going over to the light side ;)
julk

hi julk you were a long time getting here.but to be honest im strongly thinking of it ,but then again if i can't have big comfort well forget it.ther'es plenty on here especally nun have this down to a fine art im a long way off that.cheers julkanto...

Here's what I would pack for a 3 season tour of indefinite length



Nun, everything is there. For sure

By any chance do you have a spreadsheet with the weights?

Steve

Nun, everything is there. For sure

By any chance do you have a spreadsheet with the weights?

Steve

Nun, forget about the weights. I eyeballed it well enough.

What about an insulation layer, for at least around camp?

Or a camera? A headlamp?

Nun, forget about the weights. I eyeballed it well enough.

What about an insulation layer, for at least around camp?

Or a camera? A headlamp?

I usually double up on the wool Ts for insulation, but if I expect it to be cold I pack a Montbell Thermawrap jacket or a Marmot Driclime windshirt. iPhone is my camera, no zoom sucks, but it's ok for most stuff, I use my front bike light at night.

I have a spreadsheet with the list and weights of major items like the tent, bag etc. I don't have a scale that is accurate to weigh things like the sewing kit and, inner tubes etc. So what I do is to pack everything and put the bags on the bathroom scales. Here are representative results without food and water.

Front bag: 5lbs
Tent: 1.5lbs
Sleeping pad 1.5lbs
Saddlebag 13lbs

I'll go out at the weekend and invest in an accurate scale and post some numbers.

Nun,

I've spent WAAAY too much time bridging to your kit, but have concluded that we're pretty much carrying the same stuff for 3-season, but where I'm screwed is the weight of my (4) Arkel T-42 panniers versus your Nelson Longflap and Rivendalle Brand V (not to mention the Tubus racks versus your Bagman) at 139 oz, my Hilleberg Allak with foot print versus your Contrail at 95 oz, my raingear (Showers Pass Elite 2.0) versus yours at 24 oz, my cookset (MSR XGK - whatever) versus yours at 13 oz, and my bag (FF Merlin) versus your quilt at 10 oz. That's a total difference (not including racks) of 281 oz or 17 lbs 9 oz!!!!

I agree that your gear choices are appropriate for 3 season extended travel. If things get too extreme, you'd duck into a motel. And, truth be told, so would I. Is my additional weight worth the incremental comfort my kit affords versus yours? I admit that it may be difficult to justify.

What this basically says is that for light unsupported touring, one should find the largest saddlebag and handlebar bag that can be mounted without racks, then select gear with minimum volume so it all will fit (or in the case of your tent, fit under the seat). And the lower weight follows from lower volume. And as you point out, no racks = no touring bike.

As you mention above, your loaded bike is 45 lbs. Mine (Americano) loaded with my versions of the items you've listed above is 66 lbs. Some - actually very few - of my items are a bit lighter than what you have listed so the total might otherwise seem slightly off. Oh, and I don't count fuel, food, or water.

Steve

I pack loads a lot like nun and I STILL find I prefer the load security, excess carrying capacity, and stability of having gear loaded in panniers and a rack. I've still got to try with a heavily laden front bag (stove and cooking gear in handlebarbag.)

I tried loading up an old nelson longflap with my UL down sleeping bag inside and tarp and rapidly filled up the bag with essential gear. it was too much without strapping junk to the outside of the bag, which i am loathe to do for security of load.



touring like nun has it pictured, where do you strap the bottle of wine and bag of peaches from the midday fruit stand stop?

I like gear secure, inside, and stowed. Anyone has ever lost a sleeping bag while off-road touring :innocent: and had to backtrack in a field, at dusk, on a grid search for ones sleeping gear will know the value of keeping the vital gear INSIDE the bags and not strapped all cattywaumpus perched atop an overstuffed saddlebag.

My two cents. what's a rack and a couple of UL panniers going to weigh one down additionally? 3 pounds if done right?

that's a small price to pack for packing ease, security, excess carrying capacity and ride stability.

I think the ideal load carrying solution for a light, sport touring mode is racks front and back with bags like the front roller plus bags front and back to carry the load.

Having 20 pounds of gear evenly distributed and positioned at the axle axis of the wheels gives a bicycle incredibly nimble yet stable handling characteristics.

I think the ideal load carrying solution for a light, sport touring mode is racks front and back with bags like the front roller plus bags front and back to carry the load.

Having 20 pounds of gear evenly distributed and positioned at the axle axis of the wheels gives a bicycle incredibly nimble yet stable handling characteristics.

I tend to agree at least partially, but I have not tried the longflap approach, so what do i know. :) I would try it if I weren't too cheap to spring to that much money. Both of my racks and all 4 panniers combined were substantially less $$ and that is before you add a bag support.

Also I don't get is how it makes sense to scrimp on weight on just about everything else and make the bag out of waxed cotton duck and leather straps. I can see where it is aesthetically pleasing, but when we are minimizing weight everywhere else it just doesn't make sense to me.

If someone would make something similar from Cordura Nylon and at a much lower price I would try it in a heartbeat.

I wonder if any one has tried using some kind of gear bag that wasn't specifically designed for bike touring. Some are well made, similar in size, made of lighter materials, and much cheaper.

I keep toying with the notion of buying a similar sized nylon duffel and making a home made bag support. Eventually I may stumble across the right duffel and give it a go.

I pack loads a lot like nun and I STILL find I prefer the load security, excess carrying capacity, and stability of having gear loaded in panniers and a rack. I've still got to try with a heavily laden front bag (stove and cooking gear in handlebarbag.)

I tried loading up an old nelson longflap with my UL down sleeping bag inside and tarp and rapidly filled up the bag with essential gear. it was too much without strapping junk to the outside of the bag, which i am loathe to do for security of load.

touring like nun has it pictured, where do you strap the bottle of wine and bag of peaches from the midday fruit stand stop?

I like gear secure, inside, and stowed. Anyone has ever lost a sleeping bag while off-road touring :innocent: and had to backtrack in a field, at dusk, on a grid search for ones sleeping gear will know the value of keeping the vital gear INSIDE the bags and not strapped all cattywaumpus perched atop an overstuffed saddlebag.

My two cents. what's a rack and a couple of UL panniers going to weigh one down additionally? 3 pounds if done right?

that's a small price to pack for packing ease, security, excess carrying capacity and ride stability.

I think the ideal load carrying solution for a light, sport touring mode is racks front and back with bags like the front roller plus bags front and back to carry the load.

Having 20 pounds of gear evenly distributed and positioned at the axle axis of the wheels gives a bicycle incredibly nimble yet stable handling characteristics.

Yes, I totally agree with this. Especially if one is touring where one needs to haul food and water, one won't have space and with the latter without a rack one won't also have the carrying capacity . There's also no space for other stuff that some might consider essential (water filter, bear spray, spare tire, bath wipes, yada yada). And weight is better distributed lower around the bike, rather perched up high.

OTOH, nun demonstrates IMHO a paradigm shift that is totally appropriate for some people in some situations. I mean maybe one wouldn't mind gorging oneself on peaches while still at the fruit stand. (Although I'd hold off on the wine.) And, if I understand correctly, nun has carefully selected his kit so that - except for his tent - everything fits in the bags he has selected. One can legitimately pick nits with the relative functionality of some of his choices (rain gear, sleeping system, tent), but once one justifies an alternative, one is forced to bite the bullet for racks and panniers. Take your poison. Substitute a good equivalent-warmth bag for his Hudson Bay quilt and it's not just an incremental 10 oz, it's 10oz + 28 oz (Logo rack) + 80 oz (pair of T-42 panniers) - 30 oz (Nelson) - 14 oz (Bagman) = 4lb, 10oz! The lawyers call that a slippery slope!

(Yes, there are lighter racks and panniers)

This rig isn't for me either, but I nevertheless find it intriguing. And I will be thinking of nun's kit while more heavily laden climbing Colorado's passes this summer.

Also I don't get is how it makes sense to scrimp on weight on just about everything else and make the bag out of waxed cotton duck and leather straps. I can see where it is aesthetically pleasing, but when we are minimizing weight everywhere else it just doesn't make sense to me.

If someone would make something similar from Cordura Nylon and at a much lower price I would try it in a heartbeat.

I wonder if any one has tried using some kind of gear bag that wasn't specifically designed for bike touring. Some are well made, similar in size, made of lighter materials, and much cheaper.

I keep toying with the notion of buying a similar sized nylon duffel and making a home made bag support. Eventually I may stumble across the right duffel and give it a go.

The thing I love about touring are the endless gear combos, as an engineer I like hardware so mixing and matching is part of the fun. The Nelson Longflap is a little anachronistic, but then so's my bike. I use a cotton duck saddlebag because I used one as a teenager, I like the way it looks, and it works well. At just under 2lbs the Nelson Longflap isn't ridiculously heavy, and the cotton duck has a little stiffness that works well to keep the bag open when packing it. But I agree that something made with modern materials would be interesting. In fact Carradice do a Cordura saddlebag, it's big at 24 litres and weighs about 1.75lbs

http://www.carradice.co.uk/index.php?page_id=product&under=type&product_id=32

and makers like Epic Designs or Cascade could design something in modern materials.

My bigger point is that I don't consider my setup or approach to be UL because I haven't taken every opportunity to cut weight. How stuff works, feels, and yes looks is important too. I like sharing my setup it with the folks on this forum, but I hope that nobody just copies it. I'd love to see someone take a ripstop duffle and see how it works. In fact that's sort of what the true UL guys do. They pack everything in stuff sacks and strap it onto the bike

Also I don't get is how it makes sense to scrimp on weight on just about everything else and make the bag out of waxed cotton duck and leather straps. I can see where it is aesthetically pleasing, but when we are minimizing weight everywhere else it just doesn't make sense to me.

If someone would make something similar from Cordura Nylon and at a much lower price I would try it in a heartbeat.


Another good point. The Nelson Longflap is 18 liters and 30 oz and a 20-30 liter sil-nylon stuff sack weighs about 2 oz. The latter might be made to work with a little sewing ingenuity. And a smaller sack could work for the HB bag too.

http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/7

Sure there are compromises, but....

Oh and don't forget about the frame packs!

http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FFP
http://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/?page_id=4

I pack loads a lot like nun and I STILL find I prefer the load security, excess carrying capacity, and stability of having gear loaded in panniers and a rack. I've still got to try with a heavily laden front bag (stove and cooking gear in handlebarbag.)

I tried loading up an old nelson longflap with my UL down sleeping bag inside and tarp and rapidly filled up the bag with essential gear. it was too much without strapping junk to the outside of the bag, which i am loathe to do for security of load.



touring like nun has it pictured, where do you strap the bottle of wine and bag of peaches from the midday fruit stand stop?

I like gear secure, inside, and stowed. Anyone has ever lost a sleeping bag while off-road touring :innocent: and had to backtrack in a field, at dusk, on a grid search for ones sleeping gear will know the value of keeping the vital gear INSIDE the bags and not strapped all cattywaumpus perched atop an overstuffed saddlebag.

My two cents. what's a rack and a couple of UL panniers going to weigh one down additionally? 3 pounds if done right?

that's a small price to pack for packing ease, security, excess carrying capacity and ride stability.

I think the ideal load carrying solution for a light, sport touring mode is racks front and back with bags like the front roller plus bags front and back to carry the load.

Having 20 pounds of gear evenly distributed and positioned at the axle axis of the wheels gives a bicycle incredibly nimble yet stable handling characteristics.

I think we can agree that we both like to keep our loads on the lighter side and a couple of small panniers and a handlebar bag, or four panniers, is a really nice way to carry a load. I did that when I commuted in London. I'd put books, rugby kit, over coats etc into a couple of small panniers and ride from Fulham to Kennsington on my Claud Butler Majestic, but the width was an issue in rush hour traffic so I went over to a saddlebag. I did some credit card touring with saddlebag and handlebar bag and when lightweight tents and sleeping pads came out it seemed natural to see if I could add them to my credit card setup and hence the evolution of my approach to touring.

If I want to carry a bottle of wine I use the longflap on the saddlebag. I admit that I have to be careful in what extra food I buy and my recent change from an Acorn handlebar bag to a Rivendell Brand V was to give me a little extra capacity for that "Subway foot long" and on the road snacks.

I do strap my sleeping pad to the top of the saddlebag and it annoys me a little. It's very secure, but it does annoy me a little, so I've been looking at the new Thermarest Neo Air mattresses. they pack down to about half the size of the Big Agnes, but they are expensive, so I'll hold off for a while.........The under the saddle position for my tent is fantastic. It's strapped to the saddle and the Bagman and is very secure and there's no leg rub.

Yes, I totally agree with this. Especially if one is touring where one needs to haul food and water, one won't have space and with the latter without a rack one won't also have the carrying capacity . There's also no space for other stuff that some might consider essential (water filter, bear spray, spare tire, bath wipes, yada yada). And weight is better distributed lower around the bike, rather perched up high.

OTOH, nun demonstrates IMHO a paradigm shift that is totally appropriate for some people in some situations. I mean maybe one wouldn't mind gorging oneself on peaches while still at the fruit stand. (Although I'd hold off on the wine.) And, if I understand correctly, nun has carefully selected his kit so that - except for his tent - everything fits in the bags he has selected. One can legitimately pick nits with the relative functionality of some of his choices (rain gear, sleeping system, tent), but once one justifies an alternative, one is forced to bite the bullet for racks and panniers. Take your poison. Substitute a good equivalent-warmth bag for his Hudson Bay quilt and it's not just an incremental 10 oz, it's 10oz + 28 oz (Logo rack) + 80 oz (pair of T-42 panniers) - 30 oz (Nelson) - 14 oz (Bagman) = 4lb, 10oz! The lawyers call that a slippery slope!

(Yes, there are lighter racks and panniers)

This rig isn't for me either, but I nevertheless find it intriguing. And I will be thinking of nun's kit while more heavily laden climbing Colorado's passes this summer.

Wow paradigm shift........maybe not, the saddlebag is pretty old technology, but thanks anyway.

Food and water are obviously big issues and I'd think twice about using my setup where resupply would be more than 100miles away. As far as food goes I pack couscous, honey, instant oatmeal, noodles etc as as I see them as essentials. I'll eat in restaurants when I can, but I have room in the saddlebag and handlebar bag to carry extra food and water. Water is a big issue and I carry 2x 1litre Smartwater bottles as they fit nicely into regular water bottle carriers. I can also put a 3rd water bottle on the downtube, but my setup won't get me across a desert.

As far as extra stuff goes,

water filter......pack puritabs

bear spray......I could find room for this

spare tire.......I use tyre boots

bath wipes.........toilet paper and alcohol

I cannot fit everything into a saddlebag, in fact I have 4 bags: saddlebag, handlebar bag, and silnylon bags for my tent and sleeping pad. If I slept on bubble wrap and used a bivy or tarp I could probably get it down to two, but that would be too much of a comfort compromise. I look for gear that will give me as much comfort as possible while fitting into my restricted volume. So the Hudson River Quilt is a great sleeping solution. It packs down to the size of a nalgene bottle, but provides good 3 season comfort.

Nun, everything is there. For sure

By any chance do you have a spreadsheet with the weights?

Steve

Hi Cyclesafe,
I bought a kitchen scale yesterday and measured my gear weights and here's the spreadsheet. the Bottomline is that my gear, bags and racks comes in at 22lbs. I haven't included food and water. It was an interesting exercise as it highlighted some pretty heavy items and I'll try to find equally functional, but lighter, alternatives. I may go out and buy a Thermarest Neo Air sleeping pad and get a lighter lock and the saddlebag really does pop out a bit at almost 2lbs. I wonder if Epic could make something with similar dimensions out of modern materials that would weigh around a pound?
The spreadsheet is here at Google docs.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhZSPUeVaGV5dHplVmtST0pmZFJHZ1AxNjBlU20tcWc&hl=en

Thanks nun.

Although weighing everything will seem rather retentive to some, actually it helps to highlight areas where changes can make meaningful improvements. The sleeping pad will save you about 10 oz and a new saddlebag another 8 oz or so. Too bad you can't wait until these items wear out before replacing!

Thanks nun.

Although weighing everything will seem rather retentive to some, actually it helps to highlight areas where changes can make meaningful improvements. The sleeping pad will save you about 10 oz and a new saddlebag another 8 oz or so. Too bad you can't wait until these items wear out before replacing!

I saw a Neo Air sleeping pad in the "flesh" today and it is amazingly light and packs small, but the price is high so I'll wait for a while until I see the response from other makers. It's also makes a lot of noise....a bit like a space blanket. I'm happy with my set up at the moment, but I'm sure I'll replace a few things over the next year with the goal of getting below 20lbs including bags and racks. But no bubblewrap, I'm not prepared to give up function and comfort.

I'd love to save 8oz with a new saddlebag....which one are you thinking of? The Carradura? or using a dry bag hack?

The NeoAir will be on sale at the end of the 2010 season.

The Carradura will save you 230g. I'm not sure if I would actually depend on a silnylon stuff sack no matter how ingeneous my attachment system was.

The NeoAir will be on sale at the end of the 2010 season.

The Carradura will save you 230g. I'm not sure if I would actually depend on a silnylon stuff sack no matter how ingeneous my attachment system was.

None of my usual sources for Carradice seem to have stock of the Carradura saddlebag. However, prompted by your suggestion of using a dry sack how about strapping it on to the saddle with an Epic Designs handlebar harness? Failing that a couple of nylon straps could be used to attach the bag to the
saddle with a third one threaded behind them and used to pull the bag tight against the seat post or bagman. However, the dry sack approach has a major drawback and that's getting access to stuff at the bottom of the bag a silynlon duffel might work better.

Something like this? (25 liters in XL)

http://www.granitegear.com/products/packingsystems/classic/squarerock.html

Something like this? (25 liters in XL)

http://www.granitegear.com/products/packingsystems/classic/squarerock.html

I was just looking at this.

http://www.rei.com/product/766679

With a 20L compression sack i should be able to fit the sleeping pad inside too. And maybe a 6 or 10L
size would work on the handlebars. I think I'll buy a couple of these on the way home from work and test it out. The big issue will still be ease of access.

Something like this? (25 liters in XL)

http://www.granitegear.com/products/packingsystems/classic/squarerock.html

Here is my setup using a couple of compression sacks instead of the canvas bags. The weight of gear, bags and racks is now 19.4 lbs, down from 22 lbs. By updating my heavier items like the sleeping pad I could get it down to 18lbs. To make the nylon sack approach work you really have to use compression sacks to stop the contents from moving and to give the bag structure and allow it to be strapped tightly to the bike. Also I think it's best to go with a waterproof sack rather than water resistant which adds a few oz to the weight. But your stuff will stay dry and the slightly thicker nylon will hold up to the abrasion and stress of being strapped to the bike. However, this is where I part company with the true UL crowd as I don't think I'd tour with compression sacks as they aren't as convenient as a saddlebag which organizes stuff well and allows for easy access. I think I'd get irritated quickly by having to undo the compression straps to get anything out.

http://wheelsofchance.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/l_1600_1200_02842619-d7e7-4aa7-8732-fbb703ea6cb8.jpeg

http://wheelsofchance.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/l_1600_1200_282adbbb-bd8e-422a-a008-00a776565e0c.jpeg[/FONT]

I think I'd get irritated quickly by having to undo the compression straps to get anything out.

I agree. I get annoyed, just rolling/unrolling Ortliebs over and again.

Assuming one goes light in order to go 'fast', then loses the time gained trying to get an extra sweater out of storage, that seems like a losing proposition. Assuming one goes light to limit exertion, then has to go through considerable inconvenience to use his/her gear, it seems like a loser again.

I pack loads a lot like nun and I STILL find I prefer the load security, excess carrying capacity, and stability of having gear loaded in panniers and a rack. I've still got to try with a heavily laden front bag (stove and cooking gear in handlebarbag.)

I tried loading up an old nelson longflap with my UL down sleeping bag inside and tarp and rapidly filled up the bag with essential gear. it was too much without strapping junk to the outside of the bag, which i am loathe to do for security of load.



touring like nun has it pictured, where do you strap the bottle of wine and bag of peaches from the midday fruit stand stop?

I like gear secure, inside, and stowed. Anyone has ever lost a sleeping bag while off-road touring :innocent: and had to backtrack in a field, at dusk, on a grid search for ones sleeping gear will know the value of keeping the vital gear INSIDE the bags and not strapped all cattywaumpus perched atop an overstuffed saddlebag.

My two cents. what's a rack and a couple of UL panniers going to weigh one down additionally? 3 pounds if done right?

that's a small price to pack for packing ease, security, excess carrying capacity and ride stability.

I think the ideal load carrying solution for a light, sport touring mode is racks front and back with bags like the front roller plus bags front and back to carry the load.

Having 20 pounds of gear evenly distributed and positioned at the axle axis of the wheels gives a bicycle incredibly nimble yet stable handling characteristics.


I agree. I get annoyed, just rolling/unrolling Ortliebs over and again.

Assuming one goes light in order to go 'fast', then loses the time gained trying to get an extra sweater out of storage, that seems like a losing proposition. Assuming one goes light to limit exertion, then has to go through considerable inconvenience to use his/her gear, it seems like a loser again.

Don't get me wrong, I'd tour with compression sacks before I'd strap 4x panniers and 60lbs of gear onto the bike, but I think I'd rather use purpose built cycling bags than compression sacks as far as convenience is concerned. So right now that means carrying 2.5lbs more weight in cotton duck material, but if someone would come up with a 15 to 20L saddlebag made from 100D nylon that weighs 0.5lbs or less I'd buy one tomorrow. I think the 100D nylon is required because of the abuse a saddle bag goes through.

Oh, no - I think I'm I'm with you - you find the point of diminishing returns and stay close to that. I'm a two-panniers-and-handlebar-bag man, myself. I shoot for 'light', or even 'pretty light' - but not 'ultralight'.

I saw a Neo Air sleeping pad in the "flesh" today and it is amazingly light and packs small, but the price is high so I'll wait for a while until I see the response from other makers. It's also makes a lot of noise....a bit like a space blanket. I'm happy with my set up at the moment, but I'm sure I'll replace a few things over the next year with the goal of getting below 20lbs including bags and racks. But no bubblewrap, I'm not prepared to give up function and comfort.

I'd love to save 8oz with a new saddlebag....which one are you thinking of? The Carradura? or using a dry bag hack?

nun are you a member of the fell club by any chance,just that there's a guy on there selling his neo air torso only mat for 50 quid.

50 quid = £312.5

no joke! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7029564.stm)

50 quid = £312.5

no joke! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7029564.stm)
hah not from where i come from.
that's 50 pound sterling.

hah not from where i come from.
that's 50 pound sterling.

I thought 50 quid was a couple of ponies.

FYI thanks to the forum for getting me to weigh my gear, here is a summary of where I now stand. I'm looking forward to the thaw to try it out

http://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/

Hi Anto, I'm nowhere near Nun or Ivan or Kent Peterson but panniers + gear + tools + consumables for me is about 12kg (26lb) not including racks or bottle cages. I use 2 panniers, 2 water bottles, 1 top tube "tri" bag (bento box). I'm also interested in the saddle + handlebar bag approach but not until I'm again touring more and get a lighter bike.

Do a google search on "ultralight backpacking" to get some ideas for equipment and strategies. Also "journey to the centre of the earth" for a more extreme adventure-racing type setup (which sounds pretty unsafe to me).

Reasonably light equipment can be had at moderate cost eg. I have a 2-person tent 1.2kg (pretty snug - me and wife, or me only!), sleeping bag 900g with waterproof stuffsac (you can go lighter but it costs more), mini-trangia, I use polypro and microfleece tops, tights, lightweight rain/wind gear; 2 pairs gloves are worth the marginal extra weight (one pair is fullfinger and windproof/water resistant; I use latex gloves underneath, to keep them dry from sweat, if it is seriously cold). I have a thermarest prolite 3R sleeping pad (which is more comfortable folded in half and used double-thickness under my torso, cut-off windscreen shade under my feet; hoping to get a Neo-Air one day).
I don't go on remote or really long tours; I have used a tyre boot once and spare tubes regularly. I carry a chain tool and stuff to true wheels, fix flats, fix spokes, a spare pair of brake pads, but no heavy tools or spare tyre / cables (I wonder if I should take an uncut cable though). Lucky so far and never in a situation where luck running out would be anything more than inconvenient. I carry a small digital camera and phone; charger for the phone only.

I think the focus on these forums is often too much on the "fully loaded" type of touring. Personally I'm not ready to go down to a single saddle bag yet, but it has been done, and in pretty remote parts of the world too; I don't think Ireland would be any issue at all, safety-wise.

One of my colleagues regularly credit-card tours New Zealand's south island on a racing bike with a medium-sized saddle bag and handle bar bag. No camping gear, though.

quid: quasi universal intersteler dollar, some things ya just cant make up. and yes, i know that wasnt what was meant, just thaught it would be funny to mention.

I just want to say that as someone who is in the thinking stage of their first tour this is an excellent discussion on packing.

anything to oblige spooner as the man said if you don't know just ask, doesn't matter how stupid the question is and god knows i ask a lot of stupid questions .