Living Car Free - Dutch Spending Still Rising...On Bicycles-And Why

Original Reuters Article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60O2KJ20100125

ABC In The United States Picked Same Article Up:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=9653081

Understanding The Dutch Themselves:
http://www.thehollandring.com/dutchculture.shtml

From The Above Link:
Small differences -
Another striking feature of Dutch society is that government policy is focused on keeping the differences in income relatively small. The social minimum has been established at about NLG 25,000.-- a year. The Prime Minister earns 'only' NLG 180,000.--. The tax system is progressive: the more you earn, the more taxes you pay. Moreover, it is very normal to bike to work - whether you're a bank director or a nurse.

Recreation:
Many Dutch participate in cycling; nearly every person old enough to ride a bicycle has one. Fietspaden (bike paths) run throughout the country.

http://www.eddyechternach.nl/english.html (http://www.eddyechternach.nl/english.html)
27. De fiets
The bicycle or bike. There are more bikes than people in the Netherlands. And since there are almost as many cars by now, the bike is arguably the fastest way of transportation in some cities. Don't forget to lock yours, unless you want to be the victim of that other Dutch tradition: bike-stealing.

Later Edit
Webcam In Amsterdam:
http://www.terena.org/webcam/ (http://www.terena.org/webcam/)

The figure that gets my attention is the average price of a new bike sold in the Netherlands: approximately $1000 (US). On this side of the pond, most people look at you like you're nuts if you drop that kind of money on a bike.

Just for fun, I googled "canada average bicycle price" and came up with this link, with the average price of new bikes in Canada and the US, in 2007. Apparently, the Bicycle Trade Association of Canada must have been complaining about the higher wholesale cost of bikes here compared to south of the border.
http://www.swivel.com/workbooks/21936-Bicycle-Sales-Canada-vs-USA-Average-Selling-Prices

Average new bike price in Canada in 2007: $435.00 CAD ($1 CAD was worth somewhere between $0.85 and $1.03 USD that year)
Average new bike price in the USA in 2007: $296.89 USD
(http://www.swivel.com/workbooks/21936-Bicycle-Sales-Canada-vs-USA-Average-Selling-Prices)

It is the difference between serious cycling and impulsive cycling. People that only plan on riding a bike a few times a year don’t see a need to spend more than what the big box stores have to offer. But even here people that are using their bike on a regular basis are willing to drop the hammer on a high ticket bike. When I got back into cycling two years ago I went into sticker shock when I walked into my first LBS in years. My first comfort bike was on sale and still cost more than my very first used car. My first road bike was new and it cost about half as much as my first new car. My first build from frame up of a road bike is worth more than I paid for a new 67 Chevy. However I put 8k miles on my two road bikes this year and less than 4k on my car so it all works out.
However just as an aside, I wouldn’t pay anything close to what the Dutch pay for the bikes they ride. They may be good sturdy bikes but I have tossed out better looking bikes. Different strokes as we used to say.

Good article, thanks for posting.

I can't believe the Dutch are spending 1 billion a year on bicycles? I figured by now, every man, woman and child should have at least 2 bicycles if you look at the rail stations! What I can't figure out is why they are spending so much if bikes last for years? Are they simply getting them stolen each year and are forced to buy new bikes? Are the ones they use today made to last a year forcing them to buy a new one every 12 months?

Good article, thanks for posting.
I can't believe the Dutch are spending 1 billion a year on bicycles? I figured by now, every man, woman and child should have at least 2 bicycles if you look at the rail stations! What I can't figure out is why they are spending so much if bikes last for years? Are they simply getting them stolen each year and are forced to buy new bikes? Are the ones they use today made to last a year forcing them to buy a new one every 12 months?


Like you say, the math is interesting. If each bike costs $1000, then a million bikes are being bought every year. Clearly the population is not growing by one million a year. So who is buying all those bikes?

I don't know, but I did hear on TV (Globetrekker, a couple years ago) That more bikes are stolen in Amsterdam than there are total bikes. IOW, every year in that city, the average bike is stolen more than once. If that's true, people are basically buying the same bikes over and over.

The population of the Netherlands is 16 million. So, if everybody owns one bike, that's only a new bike purchase every 16 years, on average.

The population of the Netherlands is 16 million. So, if everybody owns one bike, that's only a new bike purchase every 16 years, on average.
I doubt very much if people under five and over 70 own as many bikes.

If the main means of getting around in the Netherlands is by bicycle, I see nothing bad in paying a 1000 US dollars for a bicycle, just look at what the typical American spends on purchasing a motor vehicle.

Robert, your 1967 dollars to buy your new Chevy, if they kept with up with inflation, would be worth almost 7 times their original amount. If you paid 3200 dollars for a new Chevy in 1967, it would be the same as 22,000 today. I'd say that's one pretty sweet road bike.

Robert, your 1967 dollars to buy your new Chevy, if they kept with up with inflation, would be worth almost 7 times their original amount. If you paid 3200 dollars for a new Chevy in 1967, it would be the same as 22,000 today. I'd say that's one pretty sweet road bike.

I had no intention of adjusting for inflation. Only for the depletion of my bank account. It is however a nice road bike. Or at least I think it is. But looking at the pictures of what the Dutch are paying 1000 bucks for I am not impressed. :twitchy:
I have a friend that has an old Raleigh three speed with Rod brakes. He brought it to a coffee shop ride and I was impressed with the classic look and the strange way the rear brake clamped under the edge of the rear wheel. Almost like a exposed drum brake. However, even with the small tubing the little beast was heavy. It felt like it had to weigh 45 pounds. It may not have but it felt like it. :eek: He said some places in India were still making bikes built on that design. A bike like the ones pictured on the link would be close to worthless where I live. You would be walking it up hills half of the time. Well except last week when it was raining.:D

At present, $1000=€711. Sounds ridiculously high, but I have no evidence to the contrary.
There are a lot of more expensive bikes being sold out there for sporty type in the €2000-4000 range.
But none of these are seen locked up outside the train station. That would be nuts. The median bike you'll see there is a rusty, beaten-up version of this one:
http://www.halfords.nl/Images/Catalog/Medium/805038.jpg
Limit Omafiets from Halfords. Weight: 20.1kg/44lbs. New price: €249. Used/rusty/hot price: €50 - €100.

Where are all the fancy ones?
In corporate bike garages. In collective bike garages on residential streets. In people's front hallways and closets and in back gardens.
These are the bikes that get ridden on weekends up and down the coast, to that café by the lake, and on an excursion down in Limburg.


I doubt very much if people under five and over 70 own as many bikes.
Well, I've probably seen more septuagenarians riding in the last two years here than in the prior three decades in North America.
Imagine a couple with two kids, aged four and five. Each parent has a bike they leave on the street. Each may have a better one they use for recreation or a longer work commute. They may also have a Bakfiets, that they bung the kids into to get them to kindergarten/playgroup. Both kids are learning to ride, so they've both got bikes with or without training wheels. I'd bet the Dutch included trikes in their stats.

Bakfiets: starting at around €1500 is cheaper and faster than a minivan.
http://www.beertransportfietsen.nl/DesktopModules/JunaCatalog/image.aspx?img=Images/cargobike02.jpg&width=200&portalid=12

Oh yeah, a year or two from now the kids will be more cooperative and the family will upgrade to this:
Tandemtransporter: €1600 -is faster still, and cheaper than a station wagon.
http://www.beertransportfietsen.nl/DesktopModules/JunaCatalog/image.aspx?img=Images/Herschaalde kopie van kt_met_zitje.jpg&width=200&portalid=12

On the averages i think many elderly above 70 own bikes and use them. The rest of the average is made up of people owning more as 1 bike. Then you have people always buying second hand bikes. But the average is only shows that it is not that much and that is correct i think.

The average price is also somewhat explainable because we have a bicycle stimulation plan (fietsplan). With this plan you may buy a bike each 3 years with a maximum of E749 ( = $1053) and pay it with loan before taxes or trade vacation days for it. That's how I've bought my last 2 bikes :). If you buy a bike this way you must use it for commuting half of your workdays (never heard this is checked though).

All main brands here (gazelle, batavus, sparta) have models in their catalog for exactly E749, no coincidence I think.

My wife and I are planning a trip to Belgium to see GW. Tour of Flanders and PR. I have been booking hotels. The one thing I did not realize is that most city charge about 15euros per day for parking. So we will probably end up paying a 200-300 euros in parking. (I have now adjustinged our hotels) So if you are a practical Dutch very quicky that money spent on a 700euros bikes save you in parking and now you have a bike.

Had not heard Refro expalination makes sense.

I had no intention of adjusting for inflation. Only for the depletion of my bank account.

In my line of work I'm constantly hearing about the cost of today's items by a number of people, and how much they spent on something years ago. Few, if any, will factor in inflation and how long it took to earn that amount of money back then. My Varsity that I paid 100 dollars in the 60's would cost close to 700 dollars today, if built in the same fashion, and it's no lightweight, and has fewer options for commuting like today's bicycles. I understand the thought process that you're getting at, but I just had to throw in my 2 cents.

In my line of work I'm constantly hearing about the cost of today's items by a number of people, and how much they spent on something years ago. Few, if any, will factor in inflation and how long it took to earn that amount of money back then. My Varsity that I paid 100 dollars in the 60's would cost close to 700 dollars today, if built in the same fashion, and it's no lightweight, and has fewer options for commuting like today's bicycles. I understand the thought process that you're getting at, but I just had to throw in my 2 cents.

I understand your point. But even so that makes the 1000 bucks or more the Dutch are paying for the bikes pictured even more depressing. On average the Dutch make less than we do and at least we can get a bike from Wal-Mart for a lot less than 1000 dollars.

But I have a second question, if everyone rides bikes, and anyone can get a bike from the government, who is stealing the bikes and why?

Oh well, maybe they get a better deal on Gouda Cheese.

I understand your point. But even so that makes the 1000 bucks or more the Dutch are paying for the bikes pictured even more depressing. On average the Dutch make less than we do and at least we can get a bike from Wal-Mart for a lot less than 1000 dollars.

But I have a second question, if everyone rides bikes, and anyone can get a bike from the government, who is stealing the bikes and why?

Oh well, maybe they get a better deal on Gouda Cheese.

We have cheaper bikes over here as well for E199 ( = $280) general available and they even go as low as E99 (= $140) but these are usably crap and not usable for more as 1 or 2 years. I had such a bike to go to school (4km single ride) and it fell apart after 2 years.

Don't know why bikes are stolen so much over here but not every one can get te government discount. First you have to have a job, travel to it by bike half of the time and your employer has to be willing to do the paperwork. And I don't think the theft of bicycle is related to the amount spent on new bikes. Stolen bikes will be replaced by the assurence company not costing you money or they will be replaced by second hand bikes (not in the figures)

I understand your point. But even so that makes the 1000 bucks or more the Dutch are paying for the bikes pictured even more depressing. On average the Dutch make less than we do and at least we can get a bike from Wal-Mart for a lot less than 1000 dollars.

But I have a second question, if everyone rides bikes, and anyone can get a bike from the government, who is stealing the bikes and why?

Oh well, maybe they get a better deal on Gouda Cheese.

Sure we can get cheaper bikes at Wally World, just about anyone who rides on a daily basis knows that Wally bikes don't hold up very well under constant, or heavy load commuting. As for the stolen bikes, I'd say that they are ending up in other countries without bike stimulus plans, and using the same travel distance as from San Diego, Ca, to Portland, Ore. one could travel to just about anywhere in Western Europe.

We have cheaper bikes over here as well for E199 ( = $280) general available and they even go as low as E99 (= $140) but these are usably crap and not usable for more as 1 or 2 years. I had such a bike to go to school (4km single ride) and it fell apart after 2 years.

Don't know why bikes are stolen so much over here but not every one can get te government discount. First you have to have a job, travel to it by bike half of the time and your employer has to be willing to do the paperwork. And I don't think the theft of bicycle is related to the amount spent on new bikes. Stolen bikes will be replaced by the assurence company not costing you money or they will be replaced by second hand bikes (not in the figures)
Refro, thanks for the interesting info--and metzinger also. Do most of the Dutch cyclists have bike insurance? What is the cost of insurance and what does it cover? (loss, theft, vandalism, personal liability, property damage, injuries)

But I have a second question, if everyone rides bikes, and anyone can get a bike from the government, who is stealing the bikes and why?
Kids toss some into the canal on a Friday night.
Poor people steal some to sell back to anyone who's just lost a bike.
Some just get loaded into vans and whisked away.

The national bike program includes a zero-deductable full insurance. Go figure.


Oh well, maybe they get a better deal on Gouda Cheese.
You would not believe how good...

Do most of the Dutch cyclists have bike insurance? What is the cost of insurance and what does it cover? (loss, theft, vandalism, personal liability, property damage, injuries)
I don't know the overall percentage of bike that are insured. But most of the manky ones probably not.
Covers loss/theft. I don't know about vandalism.
Here's a form (http://www.enra.nl/index.php?topic=produkten_fiets_premie&product=0&verzekering=nfv)to calculate premiums. For 'postcode' use 1234ab. Value of bike in 'bedrag' line.
Just remember to provide both keys from your lock to the insurer when making a claim.
Many people here carry personal liability insurance just for walking around.
Health insurance here is somewhat mandatory, and pretty much universal.

We have cheaper bikes over here as well for E199 ( = $280) general available and they even go as low as E99 (= $140) but these are usably crap and not usable for more as 1 or 2 years. I had such a bike to go to school (4km single ride) and it fell apart after 2 years.

Don't know why bikes are stolen so much over here but not every one can get te government discount. First you have to have a job, travel to it by bike half of the time and your employer has to be willing to do the paperwork. And I don't think the theft of bicycle is related to the amount spent on new bikes. Stolen bikes will be replaced by the assurence company not costing you money or they will be replaced by second hand bikes (not in the figures)

Like Roody I am interested in how bike insurance works. We have it if we have home owners insurance under theft. But it has to be stolen from your home. Some people have it as part of their car insurance but once again it has to be stolen from your car.
The bikes pictured for $1000.00 seem rather high priced compared to what we can get for the same money. I just got a Giant Cypress DX for my wife for under $500.00 that is Shimano equipped 24 speeds with front suspension and a suspension saddle post. I expect it will last us for many years plus we get free servicing for as long as we own it. So I guess I was just shocked that the Dutch daily ride was so expensive.

Do many have a daily rider and a weekend bike?

My Wifes Cypress DX

I doubt very much if people under five and over 70 own as many bikes.
I suspect that a higher percentage of 70+ year old Dutch regularly ride a bike than almost any age group over 16 years old in the U.S. that is not living in a college town.

The average price is also somewhat explainable because we have a bicycle stimulation plan (fietsplan). With this plan you may buy a bike each 3 years with a maximum of E749 ( = $1053) and pay it with loan before taxes or trade vacation days for it. That's how I've bought my last 2 bikes :). If you buy a bike this way you must use it for commuting half of your workdays (never heard this is checked though).


This programs is a sign of a superior civilization. In the US, our program was called "Cash for Clunkers" - a program that replace a lot of gas-guzzling automobiles with other gas guzzling vehicles.

I personally would love this program - an opportunity to buy a new Long Haul Trucker every 3 years with before-tax earnings. Sweeet :)

Like Roody I am interested in how bike insurance works.

Bicycles are also covered under our home ensurance. But the seperate assurence covers theft and vandalism for the first 3 years. You simply get the assurence with the new bike it costs around E156 (for me), you must have a ART approved lock (cost around E30 for the cheapest one). when your bike is stolen you need both keys (to prove it was locked, 1 of those keys must have use marks) and you police report that it was stolen. You simply get a new (similar, same price) bike, which you can assure again.

My wifes bike was stolen and within 3 weeks she had a new one, no hassle.


This programs is a sign of a superior civilization. In the US, our program was called "Cash for Clunkers" - a program that replace a lot of gas-guzzling automobiles with other gas guzzling vehicles.
I knew it, but don't shout it to hard :).


I personally would love this program - an opportunity to buy a new Long Haul Trucker every 3 years with before-tax earnings. Sweeet :)
Whats even nicer is that you can sell your old bike and get a nicer new one. In my case I could buy a rohloff equiped bike (Steven Souvereign) for only around E500 (the rest was paid with vacantion days and the value of my old bike.

I'd personally like to see these types of bicycle incentive programs in the US, but car culture mentality is deeply entrenched here. Just yesterday, I was listening to someone who is restoring an older classic vehicle, that most car enthusiasts would clamor for, to give to his daughter when she gets her license at 16, and his daughter is currently 14 yo. I've heard numerous stories like this over the years, and it seems that it's only escalating.

Original Reuters Article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60O2KJ20100125

ABC In The United States Picked Same Article Up:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=9653081

Understanding The Dutch Themselves:
http://www.thehollandring.com/dutchculture.shtml

From The Above Link:
Small differences -
Another striking feature of Dutch society is that government policy is focused on keeping the differences in income relatively small. The social minimum has been established at about NLG 25,000.-- a year. The Prime Minister earns 'only' NLG 180,000.--. The tax system is progressive: the more you earn, the more taxes you pay. Moreover, it is very normal to bike to work - whether you're a bank director or a nurse.

Recreation:
Many Dutch participate in cycling; nearly every person old enough to ride a bicycle has one. Fietspaden (bike paths) run throughout the country.

http://www.eddyechternach.nl/english.html (http://www.eddyechternach.nl/english.html)
27. De fiets
The bicycle or bike. There are more bikes than people in the Netherlands. And since there are almost as many cars by now, the bike is arguably the fastest way of transportation in some cities. Don't forget to lock yours, unless you want to be the victim of that other Dutch tradition: bike-stealing.

Later Edit
Webcam In Amsterdam:
http://www.terena.org/webcam/ (http://www.terena.org/webcam/)

the guilder became obsolete 8 years ago. duh.

I doubt very much if people under five and over 70 own as many bikes.

doubt all you like, you'd still be wrong. again. ;)

I doubt very much if people under five and over 70 own as many bikes.
I was just making an order-of-magnitude estimation of the bike turnover rate. Say only half of the population actually owns bikes--and only one bike per person :lol:. That would make the average turnover rate 8 years between new bikes.

The point remains that a million bikes sold in the Netherlands each year, even if the population is relatively stable, does not necessarily indicate rampant amounts of bicycle theft or upgrade-itis.

I'd personally like to see these types of bicycle incentive programs in the US, but car culture mentality is deeply entrenched here. Just yesterday, I was listening to someone who is restoring an older classic vehicle, that most car enthusiasts would clamor for, to give to his daughter when she gets her license at 16, and his daughter is currently 14 yo. I've heard numerous stories like this over the years, and it seems that it's only escalating.

It would be a great program for the US. Especially when you consider that it would cost about the same as ths cost of an afternoon in the Afghan war.

Although I admit there are probably better things that it could be spent on. For example, each taxpayer could decide to get either a cash-for-clunkers car or buy a small piece of cycling infrastructure (for example 100 feet of bike lane) on a busy street. So, if you didn't for the clunker, you could claim your piece of the street.

The mentality of the Dutch people is completely different than Americans, and not just concerning bikes. Just take a look at a map of the Netherlands and you will notice that every city has a very distinct urban boundary. Outside of this boundary you will find agriculture and rural life. I was amazed at how narrow the roads were, and at the fact that I was immediately in farmland after leaving the city of Maastricht. After having a conversation about this with a fellow at a campground it became quite clear that the Dutch mentality is a far cry from your average American. Basically he said something like: If you widen the roads then you start to lose your way of life. You lose the farms, you lose the countryside, and you lose who you are.

Maybe I sound negative when I say it, but the US will never reach a point where the majority of people think like this. Some could say it is already too late. Thus, you will never see anything resembling a Dutch lifestyle in the states, not the bikes, nor the attitudes toward development.

It would be a great program for the US. Especially when you consider that it would cost about the same as ths cost of an afternoon in the Afghan war.


That happens to remind me of the Oreo cookie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9kXPTwIO08) demonstration.

the guilder became obsolete 8 years ago. duh.

C'on, don't blame me for that fact. I just posted these links simply to get a better understanding about the uniqueness of the Dutch culture.

The mentality of the Dutch people is completely different than Americans, and not just concerning bikes. Just take a look at a map of the Netherlands and you will notice that every city has a very distinct urban boundary. Outside of this boundary you will find agriculture and rural life. I was amazed at how narrow the roads were, and at the fact that I was immediately in farmland after leaving the city of Maastricht. After having a conversation about this with a fellow at a campground it became quite clear that the Dutch mentality is a far cry from your average American. Basically he said something like: If you widen the roads then you start to lose your way of life. You lose the farms, you lose the countryside, and you lose who you are.

Maybe I sound negative when I say it, but the US will never reach a point where the majority of people think like this. Some could say it is already too late. Thus, you will never see anything resembling a Dutch lifestyle in the states, not the bikes, nor the attitudes toward development.

I don't think Americans will be able to adopt the sanity of the Dutch. I do think that we will (and have been doing recently as this last "recession") adopting bicycles as serious alternatives to the car as the motor vehicle is becoming too expensive to buy and maintain anymore.

That happens to remind me of the Oreo cookie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9kXPTwIO08) demonstration.

I enjoyed your Oreo video. Nice perspective on where the money goes. BTW, Netherlands spend about $11 million a year for defense. That's about 2% of the US amount. I'm guessing there's a lot left over for bicycle purchase programs, or health care or other non-essential items.

I enjoyed your Oreo video. Nice perspective on where the money goes. BTW, Netherlands spend about $11 million a year for defense. That's about 2% of the US amount. I'm guessing there's a lot left over for bicycle purchase programs, or health care or other non-essential items.
And they aren't getting annihilated by freedom-hating terrorists either.

And they aren't getting annihilated by freedom-hating terrorists either.

http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/620-amsterdam-escapes-terrorist-attack (http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/620-amsterdam-escapes-terrorist-attack)
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/12/terror_threat_in_holland_highe.php (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/12/terror_threat_in_holland_highe.php)
Does seem they are getting their 11 mil worth

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009450.html (http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009450.html)

More information on the cycling habits of the Dutch-and how it pushed the auto to being a second class vehicle there.

The mentality of the Dutch people is completely different than Americans, and not just concerning bikes. Just take a look at a map of the Netherlands and you will notice that every city has a very distinct urban boundary. Outside of this boundary you will find agriculture and rural life. I was amazed at how narrow the roads were, and at the fact that I was immediately in farmland after leaving the city of Maastricht. After having a conversation about this with a fellow at a campground it became quite clear that the Dutch mentality is a far cry from your average American. Basically he said something like: If you widen the roads then you start to lose your way of life. You lose the farms, you lose the countryside, and you lose who you are.

Maybe I sound negative when I say it, but the US will never reach a point where the majority of people think like this. Some could say it is already too late. Thus, you will never see anything resembling a Dutch lifestyle in the states, not the bikes, nor the attitudes toward development.

I agree, at least from my perpective in Denmark. There is very little "McMansion Culture" here, and stricter zoning to prevent it. Rural roads serve the farms an villages, not subdivisions cut out of the countryside. My travels in Europe suggest similar situations even in the larger countries that industrialized earlier.

Makes for fantastic cycling.

I see nothing bad in paying a 1000 US dollars for a bicycle, just look at what the typical American spends on purchasing a motor vehicle.

Word up. I paid $860 for my Locomotief Populaire back in 1997 and it's still a solid, solid (70+ pounds of steel) bike. Drum brakes (that are STILL on the original shoes), enclosed chain (still the original), an ignition-style key-lock, and a Sturmey-Archer that has never even needed adjusting. It's my primary commuter vehicle and in 13 years, I've only had to replace the tires, tubes and seat (with a Brooks B67.)

http://www.calamarichris.com/images/091119-locomotief.jpghttp://www.calamarichris.com/images/091119-locomotief-a.jpg

Now if we can just get a proper cycle-centric infrastructure in this country, I'll be set...

Word up. I paid $860 for my Locomotief Populaire back in 1997 and it's still a solid, solid (70+ pounds of steel) bike. Drum brakes (that are STILL on the original shoes), enclosed chain (still the original), an ignition-style key-lock, and a Sturmey-Archer that has never even needed adjusting. It's my primary commuter vehicle and in 13 years, I've only had to replace the tires, tubes and seat (with a Brooks B67.)




Looks like one sweet ride you have there. I like the enclosed drum brakes, so far, I've toasted several sets of rim brake pads and a couple of rims in less than half the time you've owned your ride.

Looks like one sweet ride you have there. I like the enclosed drum brakes, so far, I've toasted several sets of rim brake pads and a couple of rims in less than half the time you've owned your ride.

That is why I went with roller brakes for my city bike this time around.

Aaron :)

http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/44491/2253513710066886751S500x500Q85.jpg

That is why I went with roller brakes for my city bike this time around.

Aaron :)



Thanks for the tip Aaron, I'm now looking into converting the rear brake on winter commuter to a roller since it's the one that takes the most beating of all my bikes.

Word up. I paid $860 for my Locomotief Populaire back in 1997 and it's still a solid, solid (70+ pounds of steel) bike. Drum brakes (that are STILL on the original shoes), enclosed chain (still the original), an ignition-style key-lock, and a Sturmey-Archer that has never even needed adjusting. It's my primary commuter vehicle and in 13 years, I've only had to replace the tires, tubes and seat (with a Brooks B67.)

http://www.calamarichris.com/images/091119-locomotief.jpghttp://www.calamarichris.com/images/091119-locomotief-a.jpg

Now if we can just get a proper cycle-centric infrastructure in this country, I'll be set...

Unless it is a recumbent I can’t see many people in the US being interested in a 70 pound bicycle. How on earth do you climb a hill on such a creature? I don’t know if my Trek MTB and Trailer weigh 70 pounds and I have 24 gears to help climb if I want to take it out of town. Last year I put in 8k miles on my bikes and I don’t think I could have gone half of that in a 70 pound bike, with the caveat unless it was a recumbent.

Unless it is a recumbent I can’t see many people in the US being interested in a 70 pound bicycle. How on earth do you climb a hill on such a creature? I don’t know if my Trek MTB and Trailer weigh 70 pounds and I have 24 gears to help climb if I want to take it out of town. Last year I put in 8k miles on my bikes and I don’t think I could have gone half of that in a 70 pound bike, with the caveat unless it was a recumbent.
I often make an uphill trip from the grocery store with my (nearly) 40 pound winter bike with 30 pounds of food. Or make the trip to work and back with an extra 15 pounds hanging off. It's very do-able I think, but you won't win any races...

"But even here people that are using their bike on a regular basis are willing to drop the hammer on a high ticket bike."

Drop the hammer?

A perfect mixed metaphor for the BF set. I like.

I often make an uphill trip from the grocery store with my (nearly) 40 pound winter bike with 30 pounds of food. Or make the trip to work and back with an extra 15 pounds hanging off. It's very do-able I think, but you won't win any races...



1. But with a 40 pound bike and 30 pounds of stuff you are hauling 70 pounds.
2. With a 70 pound bike and 30 pounds of stuff that is 100 pounds you have to haul up a hill.
3. Is your bike a 40 pound single speed?
Just how many people do you believe would drop 8 ½ C notes on a 70 pound diamond frame commuter?
You could get a nice commuter from Trek, Giant, Specialized, or Jamis weighing in at maybe 35 pounds with a rack and fenders and Shimano or SRAM and 16-27 gears for that kind of money. If there are two shops and one has the kind of bikes pictured for $850.00 or A Jamis Commuter 3, 30.5 pounds, for $750.00 what do we believe most Americans would buy? Considering the Jamis has an internal hub for commuters? How about a Giant Transend DX for 6 Bills or less? Well you see where I am going with this? If someone wants to move the US public towards bicycles a 70 pound diamond frame is going to be a hard sell.

]However just as an aside, I wouldn�t pay anything close to what the Dutch pay for the bikes they ride. They may be good sturdy bikes but I have tossed out better looking bikes. Different strokes as we used to say.
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I think Dutch bikes are absolutely beautiful, and in the NL, they are probably very useful as well. About a year and a half ago, I even considered buying one. I ultimately chose not to, though, because they're not that well adapted to the west coast of North America. We have hills, sometimes very large hills, and, most of the time, I like to go faster than 12 mph on level ground. In addition, the Dutch bikes that are available in the US are extremely expensive for what you get. $1400 for a very nice looking Dutch bike that doesn't perform any better than a $600 hybrid seems silly. Why not spend that $1400 on a touring or road bike that looks just as pretty, but performs much better?

I can't defend Dutch bikes because I don't have one, but a million Dutch people buy them every year, and spend more like $1,000 per. Can they all be wrong to pick these bikes?

I think Dutch bikes are absolutely beautiful, and in the NL, they are probably very useful as well. About a year and a half ago, I even considered buying one. I ultimately chose not to, though, because they're not that well adapted to the west coast of North America. We have hills, sometimes very large hills, and, most of the time, I like to go faster than 12 mph on level ground. In addition, the Dutch bikes that are available in the US are extremely expensive for what you get. $1400 for a very nice looking Dutch bike that doesn't perform any better than a $600 hybrid seems silly. Why not spend that $1400 on a touring or road bike that looks just as pretty, but performs much better?

I use this article as an example of what to expect to pay for a decent Western or Northern European made bike. Not Asian made bikes of similar style and gearing. Those tend to be cheaper as they are mass produced and rapidly cranked out on conveyor belts by a combination of machines and cheap labor. They are alright for certain needs and environments. The "Dutch" bikes are built to last, plus fix rather than dispose of when a major part fails. This is the point where quality outlast quantity and pays for itself in the long run. As for gearing, I too live in the Western United States. My environment has many hills and other steep terrain. Perhaps riding style does make a difference as I can climb hills with my little wheeled folding bikes. I chose gears that cover the type of terrain that I ride when I buy a bike. I have changed the drive train (chain ring/cog) of each bike to mid forties chain ring & 13-18 cog as needed. I stopped using derailleurs years ago & don't miss them at all.

The far prettier-and cheaper-bikes is meant to be kept by the original owner for a couple of years. Until he/she tires of it and it's lack of the latest/greatest appeal and dumps it for another prettier face-or frame rather-that comes along.


I can't defend Dutch bikes because I don't have one, but a million Dutch people buy them every year, and spend more like $1,000 per. Can they all be wrong to pick these bikes?

Growing up, I was very lucky having a bike shop nearby owned by a Dutch family. They sold their own brand of bicycle (yes, those bikes). I bought 2 bikes from them and had one until the garage roof collapsed on it several years ago (the other was stolen). Yes, the purchase price is steep compared to what is available in most shops now. There are imitations of them sold under some brands now. I steer clear of these and feel confident in purchasing a quality bike that I will use (and able to fix major parts) and be proud of for many, many years to come.

My question or concern addressed here is: do you think the recent recession or downturn changed the way we select and purchase things like bikes. Have we gone from flipping bikes to treasuring them like the Dutch do? Have North Americans finally ditched quantity and make more quality choices?

~snip~

My question or concern addressed here is: do you think the recent recession or downturn changed the way we select and purchase things like bikes. Have we gone from flipping bikes to treasuring them like the Dutch do? Have North Americans finally ditched quantity and make more quality choices?

Given the fact that Walmart sales are up and other types of stores are down?:innocent:

I doubt it. I still get people completely stymied by the fact that I spent $120 for a head light for my bike. These are the same people that will spend $2000 for rims for their car then gripe about the grocery prices at WM:roflmao2:

FWIW I ALWAYS shop quality first price second.

Aaron:)

I use this article as an example of what to expect to pay for a decent Western or Northern European made bike. Not Asian made bikes of similar style and gearing. Those tend to be cheaper as they are mass produced and rapidly cranked out on conveyor belts by a combination of machines and cheap labor. They are alright for certain needs and environments. The "Dutch" bikes are built to last, plus fix rather than dispose of when a major part fails. This is the point where quality outlast quantity and pays for itself in the long run. As for gearing, I too live in the Western United States. My environment has many hills and other steep terrain. Perhaps riding style does make a difference as I can climb hills with my little wheeled folding bikes. I chose gears that cover the type of terrain that I ride when I buy a bike. I have changed the drive train (chain ring/cog) of each bike to mid forties chain ring & 13-18 cog as needed. I stopped using derailleurs years ago & don't miss them at all.

The far prettier-and cheaper-bikes is meant to be kept by the original owner for a couple of years. Until he/she tires of it and it's lack of the latest/greatest appeal and dumps it for another prettier face-or frame rather-that comes along.



Growing up, I was very lucky having a bike shop nearby owned by a Dutch family. They sold their own brand of bicycle (yes, those bikes). I bought 2 bikes from them and had one until the garage roof collapsed on it several years ago (the other was stolen). Yes, the purchase price is steep compared to what is available in most shops now. There are imitations of them sold under some brands now. I steer clear of these and feel confident in purchasing a quality bike that I will use (and able to fix major parts) and be proud of for many, many years to come.

My question or concern addressed here is: do you think the recent recession or downturn changed the way we select and purchase things like bikes. Have we gone from flipping bikes to treasuring them like the Dutch do? Have North Americans finally ditched quantity and make more quality choices?

I understand your point but there are hundreds of cyclists in these forums that have gone 1000s on miles and several years on their Giants, Treks, Specialized and Cannondale bikes without the bikes having to be 70 pounds. And you don’t have to get them with a derailleur either as I pointed out with the Commuter 3 and its IGH rear.

So while your reasoning might sound good to you I am sure there are plenty of commuters and classic bike owners that would disagree with your assessment of the quality on the modern Asian bike verses the Dutch bikes pictured. Nor would many see the value of adding 40 pounds to the weight of their current bicycles in the name of dependability. I may be wrong but I can’t see bikes like that flying off of the floor in a US LBS. Not at those prices anyway.