Advocacy & Safety - Dumb Peds

So last night I was riding to meet up with some friends, in 12 degree weather. I Was riding my fixed gear, and got down into the drops to charge a hill on a large suburban street on the outskirts of town. 2 young high school girls (later found out they were 13 and 14) were j walking coming from an ice cream parlor. At this point I was doing 22mph anticipating the long climb when they ran out in front of me at the last second. I was very visible, my bike is equipped with lights, and no cars were behind me, there was no reason for them to run in front of me(or to wait so late to do it). They started to do it, hesitated, then decided to go at the last second. The first one made it fine. The second one was chunky and had a large strawberry shake in her hands, she lost her footing and smash, I slammed into her. Me+my bike are probably around 160lbs. I was in my drops, and went over the bars. One of my front teeth was knocked out and my lip busted. Plus my bike and I were covered in pink Ice Cream:mad:

She was fine besides some cuts and bruises. Seriously parents need to teach their damn kids how to cross the street. So I got a nice root canal today, the tooth was knocked out at the root, so I was able to reuse it. Ah Well, **** happens.

Were you running a brake?

Yeah, but its on the flats, you cant run brakes on the drops when you use track bars, a brake wouldn't have helped, i had no time to react, as she stumbled in front of me

Are you getting compensation for PI?

-Kurt

NOPE! Cops would't even write an accident report, no one was held at fault. Didn't expect it really. The girl would've made it if she hadn't lost her footing. I thought she was going to make it, I didn't brace for impact or anything, probably wouldn't have lost a tooth if I was braced.

Yeah, but its on the flats, you cant run brakes on the drops when you use track bars, a brake wouldn't have helped, i had no time to react, as she stumbled in front of me

were you racing on the track??? :innocent:

were you racing on the track??? :innocent:

"Large Suburban Street" not velodrome boss!

But I love track bars they rock on hillclimbs

sounds like you might have been at least as dumb as the girls

I think this guy (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?606959-Proactively-curbing-bicycle-scofflaws&p=10109763&viewfull=1#post10109763) might be your friend...

;)

If you thought she would make it, and she thought she would make it, it's just bad luck that she didn't. Should she have waited for you, or crossed at the corner? probably. Should you have prepared to stop when her friend stepped into the street ahead of you? probably. We all do stuff all the time that would go badly if someone slipped and fell at the wrong moment. Mostly they don't.

I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm glad it wasn't worse.

So, You didn't slow down, or even reach for the brakes, even after seeing a potential conflict with teenage pedestrians?
Parents need to teach their children to anticipate road hazards, especially unpredicatable teenage ones.

The other day, I was driving and there was a jogger going the same way on the other side of the street. As I approached a crosswalk, I slowed down just in case the jogger might decide to cross the street without stopping.

As it turned out, the jogger did cross the street without stopping. If I hadn't slowed down, I probably would have hit her.

The other day, I was driving and there was a jogger going the same way on the other side of the street. As I approached a crosswalk, I slowed down just in case the jogger might decide to cross the street without stopping.

As it turned out, the jogger did cross the street without stopping. If I hadn't slowed down, I probably would have hit her.
And, at a cross walk, that's exactly what you should do. At cross walks, vehicles yield to pedestrians.

Chicagoan, were these teenagers at a cross walk? Or were they crossing in the middle of the street?

If at a cross walk, you were wrong to not stop and wait for them.

Ah Well, **** happens.

Most Peds that I have encountered have a lot of sense when crossing a road, but adolescence peds are generally still a work in progress, and one has to give them much more attention than adult peds. Chalk it up to experience, and I wish you the best that your wounds heal quickly.

And, at a cross walk, that's exactly what you should do. At cross walks, vehicles yield to pedestrians.

Chicagoan, were these teenagers at a cross walk? Or were they crossing in the middle of the street?

If at a cross walk, you were wrong to not stop and wait for them.

I have to shake my head at it seems most of the pedestrians on my route. As it seems most of them even though there is a crosswalk a very short distance away will cross wherever they are. Instead of going to and using the crosswalk. Add to that the fact that most seem to not want to look before walking and just step out into the street.

And let's not forget that it seems that most of them wear dark clothes. They don't wear any reflective material, they don't carry flashlights, it's almost as if they are going out of their way to be hard to see. If we're required to have lights and/or reflectors how come pedestrians aren't? Don't they want to be seen, don't they want to be safe?

I know that a lot of cagers talk "smack" about us and how "dangerous" we cyclists but aren't pedestrians even more dangerous then us cyclists? They have even less protection then we do. Is it really that big of a deal for them to walk a couple of feet to a couple of yards to the crosswalk instead of crossing right where they are???

And, at a cross walk, that's exactly what you should do. At cross walks, vehicles yield to pedestrians.

Chicagoan, were these teenagers at a cross walk? Or were they crossing in the middle of the street?

If at a cross walk, you were wrong to not stop and wait for them.

keep in mind that there is a crosswalk at every intersection, whether it is indicated by paint stripes or not.

And let's not forget that it seems that most of them wear dark clothes. They don't wear any reflective material, they don't carry flashlights, it's almost as if they are going out of their way to be hard to see. If we're required to have lights and/or reflectors how come pedestrians aren't? Don't they want to be seen, don't they want to be safe?
Are you serious?:rolleyes:

Whatz next? A rant about the need to license pedestrians and "must take" training classes, given by "Certified" walking experts, in order for pedestrians to be Real Safe?

Are you serious?:rolleyes:

Whatz next? A rant about the need to license pedestrians and "must take" training classes, given by "Certified" walking experts, in order for pedestrians to be Real Safe?

No, just asking that pedestrians and joggers employ a little common sense. For their safety, if they're dressed in dark colored clothing no safety vest or flashlight how can they expect motorists or cyclists to see them and avoid hitting them?

keep in mind that there is a crosswalk at every intersection, whether it is indicated by paint stripes or not.

Not true. There are a few local 4-way intersections that have one crosswalk (out of the typical four) removed.

-Kurt

OP,

Sounds like you got royally screwed, especially by the police (seems like that's worthy of some sort of report, and probably some sort of insurance claim). If there's a take away it's to reduce your speed when you see a fishy situation up ahead. You shouldn't have to, but sometimes it pays off big to do it anyway.

Not saying it was your fault.

No, just asking that pedestrians and joggers employ a little common sense. For their safety, if they're dressed in dark colored clothing no safety vest or flashlight how can they expect motorists or cyclists to see them and avoid hitting them?

Because cyclists and motorists should be operating slowly enough to handle the current lighting conditions for nearly stationary objects such as pedestrians and light poles ;).

Seriously, if you can't see a pedestrian with your lighting you either need brighter lights or to slow down. Pedestrians should *never* be required to do anything more than not jay walk. Everything else should be handled by the vehicles creating the dangerous situations.

In all seriousness....was the girl upset that she spilled her shake? Did she get another one? Come on people...kids are stupid. I feel for the OP, but at least he realizes this. Sorry for your pain bro...keep on riding and be careful.

Yeah, but its on the flats, you cant run brakes on the drops when you use track bars,


oreally?

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/gavriel_bucket/DSC_2235.jpg

but I understand that they just jumped out. Last semester I had to ride by a high school just after 3:00, the kids just don't give a damn

Because cyclists and motorists should be operating slowly enough to handle the current lighting conditions for nearly stationary objects such as pedestrians and light poles ;).

Seriously, if you can't see a pedestrian with your lighting you either need brighter lights or to slow down. Pedestrians should *never* be required to do anything more than not jay walk. Everything else should be handled by the vehicles creating the dangerous situations.

I both agree and disagree with what you have said. Yes, both cyclists and motorists should not travel so fast as to not be able to see and stop any reasonable obstacles in their path(s). But given that pedestrians and joggers have a nasty habit of springing out from between parked cars where neither cyclists or motorists can easily see them. They do need to behave in a safe and responsible manner. And how many times have we said in here that all road users have an obligation to safely share the road?

So why should pedestrians and joggers be any different?

Why didn't you slow down when you saw the peds doing the will she/won't she routine? Why weren't your hands in a position to take proper braking/evasive action?

Were I that girl's father, and she were hurt, I'd be suing you until you were bleeding from every orifice. You were riding irresponsibly.

In all seriousness....was the girl upset that she spilled her shake? Did she get another one? Come on people...kids are stupid. I feel for the OP, but at least he realizes this. Sorry for your pain bro...keep on riding and be careful.

Right, and they make errors in judgement and you should be prepared to react to those, you know, without colliding with them.

This reminds me of typical motorist responses to cyclists in the roads. When confronted with a hill or otherwise less than perfect situation, the motorist will always complain "what am I supposed to do in this situation?" Try this on for size. SLOW THE **** DOWN. If you see a ped seeming like they're going to cross at a non-crosswalk, at the very least, move your hands to a position where you can hit the brakes. A reduction in velocity might make the difference between "I knocked a tooth out" and "I killed a girl." You can only control your movements and in a situation where things are less than perfect, SLOW THE **** DOWN. Your time isn't worth injury or death. Slow it down to 15 mph and it might take you a couple of minutes longer to make it up the hill, but you'll make it up the hill.

It was the girls fault for stepping out in front of you but you could have changed the results by changing your actions. Fortunately, it sounds like you'll both move on and hopefully both learn a lesson...

Are you serious?:rolleyes:

Whatz next? A rant about the need to license pedestrians and "must take" training classes, given by "Certified" walking experts, in order for pedestrians to be Real Safe?

No need to license pedestrians, but there is a national program in place (Safe Routes to School) to teach basic pedestrian safety (specifically where and how to cross streets without getting smacked or playing "Frogger") to elementary school students. In fact, it's part of the stuff LCIs have to learn these days, what with the expansion of the curriculum in schools.

Our young cyclist could have avoided the crash with a quick turn... you can turn the bike in a whole lot shorter distance than you can stop it... fixie or not.

Not true. There are a few local 4-way intersections that have one crosswalk (out of the typical four) removed.

-Kurt

around here if they do that there are actually signs posted saying 'crosswalk closed' or something to that effect

No, just asking that pedestrians and joggers employ a little common sense. For their safety, if they're dressed in dark colored clothing no safety vest or flashlight how can they expect motorists or cyclists to see them and avoid hitting them?

when this came up in the UK, pedestrian advocates successfully argued that it is the motorists responsiblity to slow down per prevailing conditions for pedestrian safety, and not the pedestrians' responsibility to make themselves visible to motorists.

keep in mind that there is a crosswalk at every intersection, whether it is indicated by paint stripes or not.

The OP said the girls were jay walking, why the discussion of crosswalks?

The OP said the girls were jay walking, why the discussion of crosswalks?

OP's opinion only; in some state traffic codes if the block is longer than a certain length, anywhere between intersections can also be a crosswalk; he said 'large suburban street', that could mean anything.

sounds like there were judgemet errors all around. I'm sorry the OP got hurt.

But 22 mph on a bike with no available brakes is irresonsible and leaves no room for emergencies. Maybe brakes would not have helped, but we don't know because they weren't an option. Think about what the posts would be like on a story "driver who knew he had bad brakes hits cyclists" A lynch mob would form..

At what point in this incident were you able to determine the flavor of the shake?

As far as the OP goes, I hate to blame someone for hitting a jaywalker that could easily have avoided the collision, but if I didn't take evasive maneuvers around here I'd be toothless from running into peds. People are on cellphones or listening to ipods and just walk out into the street. But the peds that seem most likely to walk out in front of me are the ones that look straight at me as I'm riding towards them. I almost saw a guy get flattened by a bus, but luckily his friend grabbed him in time.

the closest crossing of the main drag to me used to have "no pedestrian" signs in all 4 directions. I think that's a sign I've only seen in Pennsylvania. I had to cross that intersection to get to the closest bus stop, never did figure out how I was supposed to do that.

One of the things we need to be aware of is that people sometimes misjudge speed and distance at night. This seems especially to be the case with bikes no matter how well they are lit up.

I hit a ped once, right by Milwaukee & Western. Buried my handlebars right into her fat ass-meat.

...parents need to teach their damn kids how to cross the street.

:lol: Yeah right.

Just yesterday a grown woman pushed a baby in a stroller right in front of me while yakking on a cellphone which blocked her view to her right. Luckily I have ESP. I yelled "WAKE UP" as I easily missed hosing the kid but mom ignored me. So I stopped and yelled "You pushed your baby into the street without even looking you stupid cow." She then picked up the pace without looking back, and without ever taking the phone from her ear.

The kids are stupid because their parents are stupid. I wish stupid was painful.

I hit a ped once, right by Milwaukee & Western. Buried my handlebars right into her fat ass-meat.

By sheer miracle I have only hit one. A male zombie drunkard J-walked across a narrow one-way street right in front of me. I weaved behind him but just then he pulled the old "oh, I forgot my dentures back at the bar" trick, spun around like a stunt man and stepped right in front of me as I was avoiding his path the opposite way. My front wheel went right between his legs and he was scooped up on my flat handlebars. He rode there (bending my NightSun headlights that he didn't see at like a million watts) until I could stop about 20 feet down the street where I set him down nice and easy on his feet. He sure felt that the next day and probably thought he had been running with the bulls or something.

I wish stupid was painful.

Unfortunately, there isn't any law against being a moron.

-Kurt

Ahaha, fatty.

Why didn't you slow down when you saw the peds doing the will she/won't she routine? Why weren't your hands in a position to take proper braking/evasive action?



Ya, that's my take.
If you see Peds, and they may cross your path, slow the hell down, Lance.

If public streets aren't private racetracks for cagers, on which to never be "inconvenienced" (and more than once I've informed them of this fact), then the same holds true for cyclists.

I'm with randya on being curious if this was indeed jaywalking. There is just as much if not more public misconception about pedestrian rights as there is about cyclist.

In many localities one can cross anywhere one wants between two intersections as long as both of them are not traffic light controlled. As in AZ:
C. Between adjacent intersections at which traffic control signals are in operation, pedestrians shall not cross at any place except in a marked crosswalk.

Of course if doing so the pedestrians must:
A. A pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles on the roadway.

But most important note this law:
28-794. Drivers to exercise due care
Notwithstanding the provisions of this chapter every driver of a vehicle shall:
1. Exercise due care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian on any roadway.
2. Give warning by sounding the horn when necessary.
3. Exercise proper precaution on observing a child or a confused or incapacitated person on a roadway.

At what point in this incident were you able to determine the flavor of the shake?

When it went "splat" in his face? I was wondering why anyone would patronize an ice cream shop in 12 degree weather.

I'm with randya on being curious if this was indeed jaywalking. There is just as much if not more public misconception about pedestrian rights as there is about cyclist.

In many localities one can cross anywhere one wants between two intersections as long as both of them are not traffic light controlled. As in AZ:
C. Between adjacent intersections at which traffic control signals are in operation, pedestrians shall not cross at any place except in a marked crosswalk.

Of course if doing so the pedestrians must:
A. A pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles on the roadway.

But most important note this law:
28-794. Drivers to exercise due care
Notwithstanding the provisions of this chapter every driver of a vehicle shall:
1. Exercise due care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian on any roadway.
2. Give warning by sounding the horn when necessary.
3. Exercise proper precaution on observing a child or a confused or incapacitated person on a roadway.
so? Whether you hit a pedestrian and it's your fault or theirs, it still ends up hurting. Better to just be on guard, on the brakes, and ready to stop. Sheesh... Is that really a difficult concept?

so? Whether you hit a pedestrian and it's your fault or theirs, it still ends up hurting. Better to just be on guard, on the brakes, and ready to stop. Sheesh... Is that really a difficult concept?
No, because those pesky pedestrians are always in the way blocking us from getting to our destination. Always slow us down. They should pass some laws or something banning them from using roads. Its just so unsafe for them to be out there. ;)

so? Whether you hit a pedestrian and it's your fault or theirs, it still ends up hurting. Better to just be on guard, on the brakes, and ready to stop. Sheesh... Is that really a difficult concept?
Maybe you missed the intent of my posting. It was not about determining fault, but instead a bit about what jaywalking is not (crossing mid block in many cases as long as ped yields) and that ultimately it is the driver of the vehicle who independent of right of way should take the extra level of precaution to help avoid collisions with pedestrians, especially children - which is not just the law, but as you note common sense.

It is the OP who was not taking responsibility for their actions and poor decisions. Plus who has to go into a tuck to get to 22mph downhill?

:lol: Yeah right.

Just yesterday a grown woman pushed a baby in a stroller right in front of me while yakking on a cellphone which blocked her view to her right. Luckily I have ESP. I yelled "WAKE UP" as I easily missed hosing the kid but mom ignored me. So I stopped and yelled "You pushed your baby into the street without even looking you stupid cow." She then picked up the pace without looking back, and without ever taking the phone from her ear.

The kids are stupid because their parents are stupid. I wish stupid was painful.

Always straight "in-your-face" style, Joey. Thats what makes me laugh when I read your stories, because it's true what you see, and the fact that I have also seen that a thousand times already. I have stopped even trying to say anything, because you can't cure stoopid. Chances are, they aren't even going to comprehend what it is that you are saying. So the only thing left to do is to be frank with them. Not that they will understand. Or care.

Natural selection at work - once they will walk out in front of the bus or a truck in the same fashion, not looking or caring where they walk - and that veichle will be unable to miss them.

I'm a fan of strict liability.
Car-bike=car's fault
Bike-ped=bike's fault
Period.

A chubby, smoothie-drinking teen is no match for a charging 22mph fixie rider. It could have gone far worse for the girl.
Dental bill notwithstanding, Chicagoan is lucky that he still has any financial future at all.

Dumb Peds

i agree. pedophiles are stupid.

Yeah, but its on the flats, you cant run brakes on the drops when you use track bars, a brake wouldn't have helped, i had no time to react, as she stumbled in front of me

If you had anticipated, you would have had time to react. Isn't that the whole zen philosophy of the fixed-gear crowd, being one with the bike, able to anticipate and react.

I ride like I drive, defensively.