Cyclocross - Why cantis on a cross bike?

I have searched high and low, and while I have found some information (including Sheldon) on cantilever brakes, I cannot figure out why they are used instead of linear pull.

I did find one thread that mentioned direct pull not working so well with STI levers, but that's it. The clearance on the linear pull is the same if not greater than cantis, from what I can see. I have a FB roadie that has long reach linears, and they would seem ideal for the new cross bike. I am considering the switch because I do not race, nor do I commute in conditions bad enough to cake up the braking area.

So is the STI/linear pull relationship the reason why cantis are favored on cross bikes? Is it even possible to switch to direct pull? Any links to other threads welcome, I just could not find the answer to my question.

Cyclocross was around way before that type of brake was developed and so there is a traditional element to cantilever's continuing dominance for 'cross. However, you can use full size v-brakes with cable pull adapters called travel agents or use tektros mini-vs without adapters since they work fine with the amount of cable pulled by road levers.

So it is true then that STI levers don't pull as much cable as, say, my Shimano 8-speed road bar shifters?

Found my answer over in Bike Mechanics (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?615691-Ok-so-cantilever-brakes-suck). Thanks for the input.

Have you even tried the cantilever brakes that come with your new bike?

The ability to adjust cantilever brakes is a cool, retro, esoteric skill to pick up -- not unlike being able to use a slide rule or solve a Rubik's Cube. Yes, it can be frustrating before you figure it out, but once you do you've gain a new level of independence and self reliance.

On the other hand, is there some technical reason that it's not possible to make an STI lever with long pull?

is there some technical reason that it's not possible to make an STI lever with long pull?AFAIK it's a financial reason.

Travel agents work great but people tend not to like them because they add weight and look a bit kludgey.

I was told by a local mech that all new STI's are changing the pull to match linear pull brakes. This means that they are also changing all their calipers. I hope that SRAM doesn't go this route.

Have you even tried the cantilever brakes that come with your new bike?

Nope, but if you search for this topic anywhere on BF, you will find a preponderance of negative feedback. Of course I will try them when the bike arrives, but what would you deduce from the storm of canti criticism and someone even going as far as to invent a tool to convert to linear pull. I like what I like, and if tradition is the only thing keeping these things on cross bikes, I'll gladly switch to what works for me.

Nope, but if you search for this topic anywhere on BF, you will find a preponderance of negative feedback. Of course I will try them when the bike arrives, but what would you deduce from the storm of canti criticism and someone even going as far as to invent a tool to convert to linear pull. I like what I like, and if tradition is the only thing keeping these things on cross bikes, I'll gladly switch to what works for me.Guess what: the many many people (like me) who have no big issues with our cantilever brakes...don't post whiny threads about them.

And just as an aside, you don't mean deduce, you mean infer.

Anyway, until you actually get your bike, you're just tilting at windmills. If brakes work, use them.

Guess what: the many many people (like me) who have no big issues with our cantilever brakes...don't post whiny threads about them.

And just as an aside, you don't mean deduce, you mean infer.

Anyway, until you actually get your bike, you're just tilting at windmills. If brakes work, use them.

Someone piss in your corn flakes this morning? Your post is short in the support/advice department.

Oh, and thanks for the English lesson. If that is the extent of your available knowledge, I'll just stick ya on ignore.

Once you get over being offended by flargle reread his post. There is some good advise in there. Basically, wait until you get on the bike for a while before upgrading things and generally the people who complain about cantis don't understand how they work so they don't adjust them correctly.

AFAIK it's a financial reason.

Travel agents work great but people tend not to like them because they add weight and look a bit kludgey.

Travel agents do work quite well but I do not like them because they are a pain in the butt when it comes to removing wheels. Double pain in the butt when you have to take your wheels off to get the bike in the car. Then put them back on and redo the travel agents. Weight and looking kludgey have nothing to do with it. Thus I had the Vs removed from my tricross and replaced with shorty 6's. Sure, they squeal, but it beats travel agents by a large margin. Especially when it is raining and you have a flat to change.

OP, save yourself a headache. Stick with the well adjusted cantis (pay for it if you can't manage on your own), besides, all the cool kids have cantis.

Travel agents do work quite well but I do not like them because they are a pain in the butt when it comes to removing wheels. Double pain in the butt when you have to take your wheels off to get the bike in the car. Then put them back on and redo the travel agents. Weight and looking kludgey have nothing to do with it. Thus I had the Vs removed from my tricross and replaced with shorty 6's. Sure, they squeal, but it beats travel agents by a large margin. Especially when it is raining and you have a flat to change. I have no idea what you are talking about. Disconnecting the travel agent for wheel changes works just the same as with a noodle.

P.S. We're talking about the kind of setup shown below, right?
P.P.S. Although mini-Vs work fine, if you are using a travel agent you might as well use a normal V brake. I also don't recommend using a mini-V with a short cable pull, although people do it. You are forced to have your brake pads too close to the rim. The bottom setup worked great, but after I swapped the Origin-8 fork for the original steel fork (for reasons unrelated to braking) I also went back to using a cantilever. One thing I never tried with the Origin-8 fork was a fork-crown-mounted cable stop; according to Lennard Zinn, this cures brake shudder/squeal on even the lightest carbon forks.
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/heatherandsteve/fall2008/IMG_2461.jpg

Your post is short in the support/advice department.

Once you know more about bikes and internet advice, you might understand that it was the best advice that you got.
OTOH, English lessons are always out of line, imo.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Disconnecting the travel agent for wheel changes works just the same as with a noodle.


Ok, that definatly is not what the bike shop put on my bike. Whatever the heck it was that they put on was a little in line barrel that you twisted to take in and let out slack. It was impossible to open the noodle without letting the thing almost all the way out. Not to thread jack, but any idea just what the heck that was? I remember paying for travel agents and got something completly different.

Now I'm knida POed that I bought a new brake set when what in pictured above was all I needed.

Ok, that definatly is not what the bike shop put on my bike. Whatever the heck it was that they put on was a little in line barrel that you twisted to take in and let out slack. It was impossible to open the noodle without letting the thing almost all the way out. Not to thread jack, but any idea just what the heck that was? I remember paying for travel agents and got something completly different. Sounds like they just gave you an inline barrel adjuster. It's a totally inadequate solution to the mismatch between your levers and brakes, because it doesn't change the amount of cable that your levers are pulling. Feel free to print out the above photo and take it to your bike shop!

Ok so i got my new Jake, took it for a ride and imediatly thought to myself these brakes really suck. sat down and messed with the brakes for about an hour, apperently did something right. Stops as well as most V-brakes i have used in the past. Granted it took me a while to get it right, but they work just fine. wont be replacing the cantis with v's as ihad thought i would be doing even before i bought the bike.

The amount of time spend here discussing the various work-arounds for connecting linear pull brakes to STI or road levers, verses just sticking with cantis, pretty much answers the OP's question.

Having not spent a bunch of time in this relatively inactive forum, you'd think my searches would yield more hits. Even if I didn't search, at least I'm introducing a new thread.

Back in the 70's, my bikes all had what we then called center pulls - I'm sure today's cantis are much like those, mechanically speaking. Having taken some time off from cycling, by the time I came back into the fold direct pull and double caliper brakes had been introduced/improved. Why go with an inferior technology on these bikes was all I was asking. The acerbic and snobby responses are duly noted and will go in my Big Book of Grievances :D

Having not spent a bunch of time in this relatively inactive forum, you'd think my searches would yield more hits. Even if I didn't search, at least I'm introducing a new thread.

Back in the 70's, my bikes all had what we then called center pulls - I'm sure today's cantis are much like those, mechanically speaking. Having taken some time off from cycling, by the time I came back into the fold direct pull and double caliper brakes had been introduced/improved. Why go with an inferior technology on these bikes was all I was asking. The acerbic and snobby responses are duly noted and will go in my Big Book of Grievances :D

I think you got the answers you got because of your know it all statement of them being inferior. They aren't inferior. They are what they are based off the application. DuraAce calipers would be inferior on a cyclocross bike in a race. Canti's would be inferior on a road race bike in a crit. It's about using the proper tool for the job. If you never plan on racing cross and needing large tire and mud clearance, then they aren't the improper tool for you. Change them and put the right brake that works in the riding that you do. For me, canti's are the proper tool. I use my bike(s) for all riding and many times this includes cross racing or sometimes some muddy off roading. I've learned the proper techniques to adjust canti's to where they function quite nicely for me on the road and while I don't do road racing, they work perfectly fine for the riding I do.

If you want supportive answers about how inferior canti brakes are, then post it in the road forum. You'll get no love here.

Nope, but if you search for this topic anywhere on BF, you will find a preponderance of negative feedback.

If you have problems, either fit a mini vees or regular vees and a travel agent. If you do this you'll lose mud clearance, but unless you are a very hardcore cross racer you won't care.

Back in the 70's, my bikes all had what we then called center pulls - I'm sure today's cantis are much like those, mechanically speaking.

Not especially, no.

Not especially, no.

You have to be kidding me. Not much has changed in physics in 30 years :rolleyes: It was a rhetorical statement.

I think you got the answers you got because of your know it all statement of them being inferior. They aren't inferior. They are what they are based off the application. DuraAce calipers would be inferior on a cyclocross bike in a race. Canti's would be inferior on a road race bike in a crit. It's about using the proper tool for the job. If you never plan on racing cross and needing large tire and mud clearance, then they aren't the improper tool for you. Change them and put the right brake that works in the riding that you do. For me, canti's are the proper tool. I use my bike(s) for all riding and many times this includes cross racing or sometimes some muddy off roading. I've learned the proper techniques to adjust canti's to where they function quite nicely for me on the road and while I don't do road racing, they work perfectly fine for the riding I do.

If you want supportive answers about how inferior canti brakes are, then post it in the road forum. You'll get no love here.

Well, I have a cyclo bike, not a road bike, and my 'know it all' statement came from past posts in THIS forum by other members. I'll get my answers and my English lessons from Google next time :rolleyes:

I'm a cyclocross racer. I tried linear pull with a travel agent and found them poorly suited to cyclocross racing. While they gave a bit more stopping power, they provided poor braking modulation which is very important in cx racing. Cyclocross has been around for more than 100 years and equipment has been continually evolving in the sport. Cyclocross cantis have been developed specifically for cyclocross racing and work better in that application than brakes developed for a different sport, and they are very different then the center pull brakes from the 70's. I'm currently using Kore Kross cantis which have very good adjustibility, as good as any linear pull brake, and with braking power comperable to mini v's with better modulation.

I'll get my answers and my English lessons from Google next time :rolleyes:

Most times google will refer you right back to bikeforums :lol:

Another thing you might want to consider is the type of riding you will be doing. Not everyone with a cross bike races cross. I happen to use my cross bike for commuting because it had long chain stays in addition to front/rear rack and fender mounts. Why yes, it is a Tricross (which IMHO is a mashup between a cross and touring bike). Anyways, with Vs up front you might run into clearance issues with a front fender. When the brake is pulled it will smash into your fender (if you can even get it on to begin with). With Cantis this is not an issue due to the increased clearance.

Just something else for you to ponder.

You have to be kidding me. Not much has changed in physics in 30 years :rolleyes: It was a rhetorical statement.

Physics might have changed, ***but a center-pull is a DIFFERENT TYPE OF BRAKE.*** It's a caliper, not a canti.

Really - are you trying to set a record for annoying laziness and stupidity? Being lazy and ignorant is band enough, but you could at least be polite to people who try to help you.

I'm a cyclocross racer. I tried linear pull with a travel agent and found them poorly suited to cyclocross racing. While they gave a bit more stopping power, they provided poor braking modulation which is very important in cx racing. Cyclocross has been around for more than 100 years and equipment has been continually evolving in the sport. Cyclocross cantis have been developed specifically for cyclocross racing and work better in that application than brakes developed for a different sport, and they are very different then the center pull brakes from the 70's. I'm currently using Kore Kross cantis which have very good adjustibility, as good as any linear pull brake, and with braking power comperable to mini v's with better modulation.
what do you mean by modulation?

what do you mean by modulation?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=brake+modulation

I just switched from canti to v with travel agent a couple months ago and just recently to mini v. I switched mainly because my new full cf fork has been super finicky with setup requiring adjustment every few rides or so with cantis, previous forks steel and carbon/alum were not near as finicky. honestly I am just to lazy to adjust that often. I agree with previous posters that are grabbier and they are setup closer to the rims than cantis, so far I really like them. you can get them new super cheap on ebay like $13 for the front and rear set.

you will get better info here than you will at google, though you will also get people's snide remarks and silly flames. Its all part of forum banter and you should either ignore it or join in.

As for the brakes on your bike, go with what works best for you. I'd ride the brakes that are on there for a week or two before deciding to change it up. Just remember that if you want to use long pull brakes you will need long pull levers or a travel agent. Have fun on your new bike.

Because the UCI outlawed disc brakes. That's the real answer that no one ever wants to say.

Without those, since dual pivot calipers don't offer enough clearance...and v-brake/travel-agent setups can get kludgy...you work with what you have left available to you: Cantilevers.

While UCI rulings don't actually affect the larger cycling population, they do in that every-day joe riders tend to follow them; so the brief explosion in disc equipped cross bikes died with that ruling. But for a few years it looked like the "next big thing".

Because the UCI outlawed disc brakes.

Was there a reason?

Safety.

http://www.dirtragmag.com/web/news-article.php?ID=170
"It isn't so much that the UCI has disallowed disc brakes as it is that they have not approved them yet."

The UCI doesn't have to justify its decisions, but past decisions regarding flat bars and tire widths show that it wants to preserve a certain look-and-feel to cross that is distinct from mountain biking. The "safety" issue seems a bit specious since they allow disc brakes for mass-start mtb races, including 4X and short track. Also since wide-profile cantis appear at least as hazardous in a crash as disc rotors.

Safety.

BS.

That's the "reason" they give, because it effectively closes debate.

The real reason is because Cannondale introduced discs to cross without consulting the UCI (they weren't specifically "illegal" at the time...but they weren't specifically "legal" either). The UCI punished this affront to its power...but to cite "politics" as the reason would likely provoke an outrage...so they cited "safety".

By their reason, one ought not to have chainrings on bikes either. Possibly not pedals. The reason they gave is because in a crash the rotor is an intolerable safety hazard. I bring up chainrings and pedals because I've seen more shins and calves gouged with those in crashes than I've seen with rotors. Come to think of it, I've never seen anyone jacked up by a rotor.

The UCI has a history of being stupidly reactionary, often in the name of asserting its own power. Read the story of the Cinelli "Spinaci" bars...the UCI brought that company to its knees.

At one point, rims of any material other than wood were illegal (safety), and derailer equipped drivetrains were illegal (don't know the reason there).

Without those, since dual pivot calipers don't offer enough clearance...

What about the extremely long-reach Tektro R556's designed for the C&V crowd?

http://www.cambriabike.com/Images/product/tektro_r556_brakes.jpg

I ask primarily as I was considering building a cyclocross machine from an older 531 frame originally designed for 27" wheels and fenders. (EDIT: A '74 Raleigh International) With 700C's and the R556's, I figure that I'll have more then ample tire clearance, and come out with adequate braking performance when all is said and done.

Thoughts? Ideas? Criticisms? Flames?

-Kurt

I use Cane Creek Direct Curve brakes on my cyclocross bike. They work well and give good modulation, without the need for a Travel Agent.

I just switched from canti to v with travel agent a couple months ago and just recently to mini v. I switched mainly because my new full cf fork has been super finicky with setup requiring adjustment every few rides or so with cantis, previous forks steel and carbon/alum were not near as finicky. honestly I am just to lazy to adjust that often. I agree with previous posters that are grabbier and they are setup closer to the rims than cantis, so far I really like them. you can get them new super cheap on ebay like $13 for the front and rear set.

This was a common problem when shocks first came out. They make a stiffener that will fix the problem if you
ever get tired of Travel Agents. This is what they looked like..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ODYSSEY-U4-STIFFENER-PLATE_W0QQitemZ190371673968QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCycling_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2c53093770

They can be hard to find, but should fix the problem.

This was a common problem when shocks first came out. They make a stiffener that will fix the problem if you
ever get tired of Travel Agents. This is what they looked like..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ODYSSEY-U4-STIFFENER-PLATE_W0QQitemZ190371673968QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCycling_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2c53093770

They can be hard to find, but should fix the problem.
I am using minis w/o a travel agent which I am pretty happy with so far though I really haven't logged many miles on them so far just a couple hundred. I wonder is they could create a similar device like the one you posted but with a cable stop attached to it. I thinks long headtube + no hole drilled in fork makes my setup so problematic with cantis.

P.S.: In regards to my previous post, this is what I had in mind:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/raleigh_interna7.jpg

-Kurt

As long as you don't need mud clearance, then it looks like you'll have enough room for a 'cross tire. How's the clearance down below at the chainstays/seattube? Give it a try!

As long as you don't need mud clearance, then it looks like you'll have enough room for a 'cross tire. How's the clearance down below at the chainstays/seattube? Give it a try!

The track I'll be running it on has so much thin grass and so little mud that you could easily run a road bike through the course with semi-slick Panaracer Pacelas (!).

I've got about the same amount of clearance at the chain stays with the wheel backed all the way in the Campy 1010 dropouts, and the stays are dimpled quite a bit - enough that I can fit quite a large tire in the gap. This is the best photo I have at the moment:

EDIT: Proper chainstay photo posted:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/raleigh_interna8.jpg

-Kurt