Bicycle Mechanics - Bottom bracket seized in titanium frame - how to remove?

I bought a litespeed that has never been ridden - the guy (new guy) installed the bottom bracket at the shop without using any grease or anti-seize, and the bike's been hanging in back since 2005 or so. The shop guys have given it a go at taking it out, to the point where the last thing it looks like they tried was wrenching it out, now it's bent and you can't fit a BB removal tool in there

I've read about soaking in penetrating anti-seize, but I don't even know how I'd unscrew it if the penetrating anti seize did anything.

I'm just wondering if there's anything I can do before I take it to a local framebuilder. If the local guy can't do anything, I can send it back to litespeed to have it fixed, but that's an expensive option - one that's worth it if I can't do anything else, but I figure I'll give it a go locally first.

Pictures

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk246/masonet/utf-8BSU1HMDAyOTgtMjAxMDAyMDktMTg0M.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk246/masonet/utf-8BSU1HMDAyOTctMjAxMDAyMDktMTg0M.jpg

Lol, what a bunch of hacks

I think the only way that is coming out is in pieces. If you want to keep it local, I'd ask around at some machine shops.

hope you didnt pay much for it. you can cut it out, put a pipe wrench on whats left, can also try welding/siezing(alloy and steel spindle? not sure if you can weld it) the drive side cup to the spindle and using a crank to turn it out, then cut out the non drive cup

I have seen someone use a hole saw on a really bad one, scary to watch...

If that spindle is hollow all the way through it might give you more options. I have assembled a hacksaw with the blade inside of a cup that was stuck and then sawed it out one chunk at a time. Never attempted it with a spindle present, but it might be possible to saw it out if all else fails.

I like the machine shop idea, drilling the spindle out is probably the most reasonable thing to do. Then saw the cups out very carefully.

I think the only way that is coming out is in pieces. If you want to keep it local, I'd ask around at some machine shops.

Yeah, I agree. What I'm concerned about at a machine shop is that the threads in the shell are shot somehow, and I pay them to get it out, and I still have to go back to litespeed. I figure if I go to a frame builder, at least they've got a shot at doing the whole job for me. Would I be better off going to a machine shop?


hope you didnt pay much for it. you can cut it out, put a pipe wrench on whats left, can also try welding/siezing(alloy and steel spindle? not sure if you can weld it) the drive side cup to the spindle and using a crank to turn it out, then cut out the non drive cup

I paid $300 for the frame, fork, seatpost, stem, headset, wheelset (crappy, but it's for my kid sister who's on a budget), tires, tubes - all brand new - steer tube on the fork hasn't even been cut. Litespeed quoted me $225 to fix it, that's my worst case scenario. I found an ultegra 6600 group used locally for $150, and figure another $50 for cables/housing/bar tape/etc, so my worst case scenario appears to be $725, and (aside from the wheels, which I may try to sell on craigslist then build her up some dura ace hubs I've got with rr415's and revolutions) and I'm ok with that for this bike.


I have seen someone use a hole saw on a really bad one, scary to watch...

If that spindle is hollow all the way through it might give you more options. I have assembled a hacksaw with the blade inside of a cup that was stuck and then sawed it out one chunk at a time. Never attempted it with a spindle present, but it might be possible to saw it out if all else fails.

I like the machine shop idea, drilling the spindle out is probably the most reasonable thing to do. Then saw the cups out very carefully.

I don't even know what a hole saw is, but I'm liking the idea of carefully sawing it out if I can get a hole drilled through the middle safely.

$225 to me would be cheap to have it repaired by the pros.

$225 to me would be cheap to have it repaired by the pros.
I know, and were it mine I'd do it in a heartbeat, but it's for my kid sister, for whom that's a good chunk of change to spend on a bike.

You might be able to use a dremel to grind some flats on that thing and use an old fixed cup tool to get it out. If you're anywhere near the middle of Indiana I have an old VAR fixed cup tool that would do the trick, if not, search around to a different shop. If that fails, drilling the center and then spending some quality time with a hack saw blade and vise grips should get it out.

If you can still seat the BB tool in it, hold it in with a skewer, then put the flat sides of the tool into a vise, and use the frame as leverage. Jut make sure you're turning it in the correct direction.

Here's a link to what I'm talking about:
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=94

I know, and were it mine I'd do it in a heartbeat, but it's for my kid sister, for whom that's a good chunk of change to spend on a bike.

Do it anyway, it's money well spent. If Litespeed screws up the job, they will be able to make it right. If the machine shop screws it up, you will still have to pay Litespeed to repair the damage. Pay one time and have it done correctly. A frame like that should be good for decades if it's repaired correctly.

Use heat. Assuming the frame is aluminium, don't heat it up beyond 200*C - but you can heat the crankshaft and bearings up a heap. It's called the co-efficient of expansion. will "break" the corrosion "joint" between the parts.

Other option is to use a similar process of heating parts, but using a cheap version (sort of) of arc gouging. Use stick based arc welder, attach earth lead to other end of crank shaft, hold frame sort of over head, then weld away at bottom of crank shaft, bearings and inner surface of shell/s. Weld pool builds up to excess volume and melts out metals etc., leaving "skin" of sleeve inside frame. If your patient and careful, you can extract entire bottom end and have no damage to threads in frame.

Use heat. Assuming the frame is aluminium, don't heat it up beyond 200*C - but you can heat the crankshaft and bearings up a heap. It's called the co-efficient of expansion. will "break" the corrosion "joint" between the parts.

Other option is to use a similar process of heating parts, but using a cheap version (sort of) of arc gouging. Use stick based arc welder, attach earth lead to other end of crank shaft, hold frame sort of over head, then weld away at bottom of crank shaft, bearings and inner surface of shell/s. Weld pool builds up to excess volume and melts out metals etc., leaving "skin" of sleeve inside frame. If your patient and careful, you can extract entire bottom end and have no damage to threads in frame.
The frame is Titanium and improper use of welding heat will destroy it. Send it back to Litespeed and have the job done once and done right.

Use heat. Assuming the frame is aluminium, don't heat it up beyond 200*C - but you can heat the crankshaft and bearings up a heap. It's called the co-efficient of expansion. will "break" the corrosion "joint" between the parts.

Other option is to use a similar process of heating parts, but using a cheap version (sort of) of arc gouging. Use stick based arc welder, attach earth lead to other end of crank shaft, hold frame sort of over head, then weld away at bottom of crank shaft, bearings and inner surface of shell/s. Weld pool builds up to excess volume and melts out metals etc., leaving "skin" of sleeve inside frame. If your patient and careful, you can extract entire bottom end and have no damage to threads in frame.
Seeing as how the thread title involves the phrase "titanium frame" I'm betting it isn't aluminum. Welding or torching improperly will destroy it, Also, you would want to cool the spindle and bearings as you heat the frame, not heat the entire thing.

If you can still seat the BB tool in it, hold it in with a skewer, then put the flat sides of the tool into a vise, and use the frame as leverage. Jut make sure you're turning it in the correct direction.

Here's a link to what I'm talking about:
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=94

There's a bit of bottom bracket sticking out of the shell on both sides, and the bb has already been flattened to the point where I can't fit a tool on - Would there be any reason to not soak it with pb blaster and put the flat sides of the bb in a vice, use the frame as leverage, and see what happens?

For those who suggest machine shops, I doubt he'll get a low quote except if the shop were owned or run by a cyclist. Machine shops aren't set up for this, and lack the various bike specific tools. They'd likely charge for the time getting the job set up, which would take much longer than the job itself. His best bet is a legitimate Pro shop LBS if there's one local (obviously where he went already), or a local builder, or going back to Lightspeed.

He could get comparison quotes and decide. If he knows an auto shop with a bearing press, it might be possible to press the spindle put (destroying it and the lower cup) and leaving the vestigal cups in the frame. Then he can ream or hand file these rings until he neared the BB shell, and either flake or tap them out. It's a skill job for a good mechanic but getting the spindle pressed out first would improve access and probably save a bit of dough.

If he doesn't know anyone, he can send photos to Yellow Jersey (http://www.yellowjersey.org/nutube.html) in Madison for an estimate. They do this kind of work everyday, and are efficient at getting it done right.

There's a bit of bottom bracket sticking out of the shell on both sides, and the bb has already been flattened to the point where I can't fit a tool on - Would there be any reason to not soak it with pb blaster and put the flat sides of the bb in a vice, use the frame as leverage, and see what happens?

No, if you can't get the proper tool onto it, then don't try it. Maybe Lightspeed is your best option.

No, if you can't get the proper tool onto it, then don't try it. Maybe Lightspeed is your best option.
You guys are no fun ;)

(but I appreciate the advice)

yea but I would just pay for it for my little sister if she could not afford it. Just like a nice big brother.

I'd at least attempt to use a punch and flatten out the bottom bracket cup a bit. With some patience, you ought to be able to get a tool in there. When you do, either clamp it in place with a skewer or use this tool from Pedros (http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=17658&category=215). Then have it with either a vice or a breaker bar. Worst case, you strip the cup and possibly ruin the BB tool. Best case, you get it out and save a big chunk of money. You'll still likely want to have the BB shell retapped though.

I forgot to add that when you get one side out or even loosened, the other side should become significantly easier to remove.

Grind some flates then:
136998 (http://www.parktool.com/images/products/productimages/hirezimages/HCW-4.jpg)
Park HCW-4

http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/Gallery/product/SIP/SIP06703Product.jpg

soak it in PB Blaster for a couple of days then try it again. That stuff is magic when it comes to seized stuff. Use it for my truck all the time.
http://www.midwayrentalsandsales.com/store/images/PB_BLASTER.jpg

Maybe using a large flat bladed screwdriver and an mallet? It's damaged already, so you have nothing to lose. Soak it with the PB stuff first, then tap tap tap.

Three letters, EDM.

http://www.brokentap.com/services.html

Three letters, EDM.

EDM would work, but in this case isn't a panacea. It's a large part for the type of EDM usually used to remove taps, so wire EDM would be more efficient, but that means first punching out the
spindle, or drilling a hole someplace to thread the wire. Then a circular cut can be made, but still leaves the rims of the cups bound into the frame. These can't be removed by EDM, so it's still
leaves the problem of re-tapping the shell, picking up the original leads.

Overall this is a very different job than removing a tap. Taps are jammed in, and stuck by pressure, or chip loading. This problem involves parts chemically bound together. All in all he won't save
dough by going with other than bike pros. It's a question of whether he can find a pro to beat the upset price of $225.00 offered by Litespeed.

Do Litespeed use 6Al4V for the bottom bracket or CP?

If the latter, you could immerse the whole BB in liquid nitrogen and then smack the axle sideways with a hammer.

CP Titanium and Alpha alloys have excellent cyrogenic toughness - back when I worked as a brewer I remember the maintenance guys removing very tough rubber heat exchanger gaskets from the Ti plates by immersing the whole plate in LN2 and then banging on it. The rubber shattered like glass (it was way below its Tg).

Unfortunately the Beta phase of Ti is not so tough and 6Al4V has a high percentage of Beta so if the BB is 6Al4V this might be a problem.

I am a big proponent of do-it-yourselfiveness, but this sounds like a job for the professionals.

Four words: Send to Lights-Peed

I am a big proponent of do-it-yourselfiveness, but this sounds like a job for the professionals.

Four words: Send to Lights-Peed
+100. That fix will be reliable and probably cheaper than a lot of the DIY or local repairs will turn out to be.

Soak it in PB blaster every day for 3 weeks.
Tap or wiggle it daily (to get the juice in the cracks).

After 3 weeks it will either come apart of you can spend the big money.

If it were mine, At the end of that time I would "warm" it up a bit (Maybe 300 degrees F )with a propane torch just to get some metal expansion going causing separation of the two dissimilar metals which have different expansion rates.

Let it cool and then soak again a few more days. I wouldn't let this sucker beat me if I had a tool left in the tool box. Especially ones that are safe to try first.

Patience, careful thought and PB blaster are your friends

I know, and were it mine I'd do it in a heartbeat, but it's for my kid sister, for whom that's a good chunk of change to spend on a bike.

it's called be a good brother and spend the money for her

%$#^%$ hacks.

Step one would have been to apply pb blaster or another anti seize as soon as they realized those cups weren't budging and then re-try with the bb tool firmly clamped in place so it would not slip. It could be applied through the set tube so that it would penetrate from the inside as well as those threads are fine and resist penetration.

This might take a few tries and patience is essential as step two gets more violent and might cause some paint damage.

When mechanical measures fail we apply heat and do that very carefully... WD40 works well in this step as it penetrates and with the application of a little flame and heat will boil off and will often free the most seized parts.

Using a wrench just made a hard job way harder.