Winter Cycling - Are mountain bikes safer in the winter?

I had a nasty accident about three weeks ago. Check it out here if you want, but in summary I got a stick in my front wheel and went over the bars, really hard.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?616961-Goodbye-Moto&highlight=moto

I have been slowly recovering and thinking about what my replacement bike should be (not that I need another bike). I bike in Vancouver so for the most part I have to deal with a lot of rain, but as you can see there are sometimes sticks on the road especially after wind storms.

I am considering getting a disc brake mountain bike, possibly a 29er, and running a rigid fork. The suspension corrected rigid forks seem to have so much clearance. I also think using a disc brake and the type of fenders that don't use supports would reduce the chance of something getting jammed in my front wheel again.

Am I thinking about this right? Should I stop thinking about this, cause it will never happen again?

Just read your other thread and am pleased you are recovering and am really sorry about the Motobecane GT... they are such a beautiful bike.

When you consider the millions and millions of miles / km cyclists ride this rates as a pretty uncommon event.

Don't let it keep you from riding the kind of bike you prefer... a spoked wheel is always vulnerable to anything that can get into it and if you know the conditions are hazardous slow down and pay extra attention to things.

That little piece of lumber may have very well been kicked up by a passing car and it is amazing at how much damage it caused.

An mtb with an unsupported front fender would prevent an object from tearing off your fender as this one did but you might miss the coverage the full fenders offer in Vancouver's wet climate.

Bigger sticks could lodge across the inside of the wheel and also cause a pretty sudden stop and a disc brake would eliminate the odds of something jamming in the rim brakes.

This is usally an off road hazard here and not something I worry about on the road although after last summer's vicious wind storms we looked like we had been hit by multiple tornados and debris was everywhere.

I went riding to survey the damage and was really cautious to avoid fallen branches of any size.

I rode last winter on a 29er with 2.5" tires. It had a front suspension fork, but I kept it locked out. This year I'm riding a single-speed commuter/cross bike (Bianchi San Jose with drop bars) with 700x35 tires. On the roads with a few inches of snow and mush, I like the cross bike better (though I plan on putting discs on the front.) The narrower tires seem to cut through everything better. (Of course, off road the 29er is better.) I think it is best to have either something narrow (35) or something really wide (e.g. Pugsley); the 2.5" tire just does not work that well on snowy/mushy roads.

The odd thing about sticks on the road or trails is I never gave them much thought. I usually rode around them because the ride is smoother. I really didn't think it was very likely a stick could jump up and get lodged in the spokes.

I think I am going to buy a used Rocky Mountain Hammer 29er. I found one locally and I will probably put drop bars on it. It will replace my older mountain bike that only gets ridden on family rides because I have a child seat attached to it. I am always going to have a mountain type bike so I might as well get one that suits more purposes.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

You need to focus on is the wheels, too. As I noted in your first thread, an aerodynamic wheel with fewer spokes will be more dangerous since they're less likely to deflect objects flipped up from the road. However, even a wheel with more spokes may present a greater risk if aerodynamic spokes that are blade or oval shaped are used since they have sharp edges that may dig in and lodge a stick into place. Here's a link to a discussion from a law firm that handles suits involving bicycle accidents. http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html (http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html)

Your accident was unfortunate. As Sixty Fiver noted, you need to adjust your riding to take in to account weather related changes that will result in extra hazards on the road, including leaves, twigs, etc. One of a cyclist's tires may well launch a twig into the spokes. (Disc brakes wouldn't hurt, lots of extra braking power in wet weather.) Good luck.

You need to focus on is the wheels, too. As I noted in your first thread, an aerodynamic wheel with fewer spokes will be more dangerous since they're less likely to deflect objects flipped up from the road. However, even a wheel with more spokes may present a greater risk if aerodynamic spokes that are blade or oval shaped are used since they have sharp edges that may dig in and lodge a stick into place. Here's a link to a discussion from a law firm that handles suits involving bicycle accidents. http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html (http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html)

Your accident was unfortunate. As Sixty Fiver noted, you need to adjust your riding to take in to account weather related changes that will result in extra hazards on the road, including leaves, twigs, etc. One of a cyclist's tires may well launch a twig into the spokes. (Disc brakes wouldn't hurt, lots of extra braking power in wet weather.) Good luck.

I doubt that the number of spokes makes a significant difference either way. I could see in some cases more spokes would make it more likely that debris would be deflected and in other cases more likely that it will get caught depending on the shape and size of the debris, where it hits the wheel and the angle that it approached the wheel.

Couple thoughts on your accident:
Judging from the back wheel those fenders look really close to your tires. Maybe too close?
Could having your bars/levers like that be putting you in a much too 'forward heavy' riding position, making it easier for you to get pitched OTB's?

http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html (http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html)
This website is full of awesome. I like how they have absolutely no scientific data to backup any of the purely anecdotal claims.

You need to focus on is the wheels, too. As I noted in your first thread, an aerodynamic wheel with fewer spokes will be more dangerous since they're less likely to deflect objects flipped up from the road. However, even a wheel with more spokes may present a greater risk if aerodynamic spokes that are blade or oval shaped are used since they have sharp edges that may dig in and lodge a stick into place. Here's a link to a discussion from a law firm that handles suits involving bicycle accidents. http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html (http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html)

Your accident was unfortunate. As Sixty Fiver noted, you need to adjust your riding to take in to account weather related changes that will result in extra hazards on the road, including leaves, twigs, etc. One of a cyclist's tires may well launch a twig into the spokes. (Disc brakes wouldn't hurt, lots of extra braking power in wet weather.) Good luck.

Thanks for the link to the lawyer. I don't think I have a case against anyone except that damn stick. My wheels were just regular spoke hand-built wheels and I am pretty sure they were 36 spoke, but I'd have to double check. The accident may have been avoided if I had the SKS fender mounts that release when enough force is put on them, but that is tough to say.

Since my accident I have had three co-workers with similar stories. One guy got a stick in his front wheel on a trail and he did a full flip in the air and landed on his back. He says he can recall seeing his young daughter's horrified face who was riding behind him when he was in the air. YIKES! Another guy's fender support came loose while riding at high speed down a trail and he did some major damage including a broken collar bone (this was last year). I regularly checked my fenders because of that one. I can't remember how the third guys wheel locked up because his story became very graphic explaining how he got his scrotum caught on the neck of the bike and it became swollen the size of a grapefruit. These accidents can happen pretty easy and when they do it is so fast there is no way to stop it.

In terms of avoiding the accident, I honestly never saw the stick. The only thing I remember is seeing another cyclist approaching from the end of the block, but that was about 500m away. It was a warm clear evening in Vancouver with no visibility issues other than it was dusk. I have a very bright LED flashlight that was on, but it wasn't really dark enough for it to do anything. I was riding fairly fast, but I was not in a rush. I was thoroughly enjoying myself. The road does not have any trees close by or over hanging. There are parts of my route with over hanging trees and if the accident had happened there I would be able to say it was from all the sticks lying around. What I am trying to make clear is that I don't think I could change my cycling behavior to avoid the accident. It is true that if I was going slower things might have been different, but again I wasn't going anywhere near full out.

Anyhow, to make myself feel a little better I am probably going to buy an inexpensive MTB with disc brakes and use that as my winter/rainy commuter. It works out fine for me because I really find disc brakes beneficial for commuting in Vancouver because they save your rims from wearing out from all the grit that gets on them when it rains. I was looking for a road bike with disc brakes, but they aren't mainstream. I did actually buy one, but I compromised while buying it and I don't like it all that much. So this way I open up my options to buy a nicer road bike to use in fair weather and then I will have the disc brake MTB for when it rains and it rains a lot.

You need to focus on is the wheels, too. As I noted in your first thread, an aerodynamic wheel with fewer spokes will be more dangerous since they're less likely to deflect objects flipped up from the road. However, even a wheel with more spokes may present a greater risk if aerodynamic spokes that are blade or oval shaped are used since they have sharp edges that may dig in and lodge a stick into place. Here's a link to a discussion from a law firm that handles suits involving bicycle accidents. http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html (http://stc-law.com/wheel_roll.html)


This same accident happened to a close friend. His bike was outfitted with bladed spokes and only 20 per wheels... which seems to me like it would make it easier for the stick to get in the spokes. However, I notice the OP's bike has the full 36 or so.

Kona ***** INC... disc brake road bicycle, fender compatible with 28c wheel... company 50% based in B.C. also. Nice ride.

a 29r is a lot of tire for just vancouver rain...

You can get a fender without stays, but your best bet is to raise the bottom of the fender up and remove the mudguard. What happens is twigs you roll over can be flung up between the fender and tire and the tire motion then sucks the fender onto the front tire when the twig hits the fender stays... though from your accident i don't think that is the case, i have had sticks stuck in my fenders and though they bent up the fender stays the twig never entered the wheel. I suspect the twig, which is actually quite large got wedged in the spokes because it seems to have taken spokes and the fender stays with it. What happens with the death twigs like those of a certain size(3/4") is they often have a small branch on the side. When you roll over the small branch, which is at a certain angle to the larger twig, it causes the larger body of the twig to rotate up and into your wheel. My two cents.

You can get aero disc wheels if you want... but really this is sort of rare, and i doubt you'll even run over another twig again :)

This same accident happened to a close friend. His bike was outfitted with bladed spokes and only 20 per wheels... which seems to me like it would make it easier for the stick to get in the spokes. However, I notice the OP's bike has the full 36 or so.

It's not just the number of spokes, but their shape as well. There are aerodynamic spokes that are blade or oval shaped that have sharp edges that dig in and lodge debris, like sticks, rather than deflecting it.

I have never had anything get caught in my spokes and throw me, and don't know anyone who did. But have read a few posts here about that. Of course a normal ride where that doesn't happen isn't going to get posted so the stats will be skewed.

One unusual car accident I read about, a guy ran over a wheel wrench on a highway. It came up through the floorboards and killed him nearly instantly. His family was in the car too. I guess it's not how likely or unlikely something is to happen, just if it happens to us.

It's amazing the stuff that happens.

but really this is sort of rare, and i doubt you'll even run over another twig again :)

I've yet to have it happen to me on the road but it has happened to me a few times on the trail. I haven't gone down hard for that yet. I've been mountain biking since 1984 and have even had a piece of barbed wire get tangled in my front v-brake and managed to stay upright. That was on my old school GT Backwoods. It has a longer fork than OEM so its geometry is even slacker than it originally was. I think the head tube is about 69º now. It's a major headache on tight switchbacks but it is the bomb on high speed straight line descents and bushwacking through deadfall and such. I routinely ride down stuff on an 80mm hardtail that people on 5-6" trail bikes walk down and I rarely feel like I'm going over the handlebars although I'm sure it could still happen given the right stick at the wrong time. It's hardly a race machine with its handling limitations but I enjoy it so much at times that I'm trying to duplicate its character with a coil sprung full suspension frame.

The stick was probably a fluke but I think I'd be looking at a cross bike with more mountain bike-ish handling: 70º-ish head angle, a little more trail, longer wheelbase, etc. if I were really out to prevent it happening again. I commute here and there on fat tires in foul weather and for the most part, I'd rather be on skinny tires most of the time. The only time when fatties really seem to work better is when major ruts and holes have developed in the ice, especially when they're hidden under a layer of snow and/or slush.

Going slower is safer in the winter, assuming you live in the land of ice and snow. And it's easier to go slowly on a mountain bike than a road bike. You just don't always know if what seems solid is solid.

I've yet to have it happen to me on the road but it has happened to me a few times on the trail. I haven't gone down hard for that yet. I've been mountain biking since 1984 and have even had a piece of barbed wire get tangled in my front v-brake and managed to stay upright. That was on my old school GT Backwoods. It has a longer fork than OEM so its geometry is even slacker than it originally was. I think the head tube is about 69º now. It's a major headache on tight switchbacks but it is the bomb on high speed straight line descents and bushwacking through deadfall and such. I routinely ride down stuff on an 80mm hardtail that people on 5-6" trail bikes walk down and I rarely feel like I'm going over the handlebars although I'm sure it could still happen given the right stick at the wrong time. It's hardly a race machine with its handling limitations but I enjoy it so much at times that I'm trying to duplicate its character with a coil sprung full suspension frame.

The stick was probably a fluke but I think I'd be looking at a cross bike with more mountain bike-ish handling: 70º-ish head angle, a little more trail, longer wheelbase, etc. if I were really out to prevent it happening again. I commute here and there on fat tires in foul weather and for the most part, I'd rather be on skinny tires most of the time. The only time when fatties really seem to work better is when major ruts and holes have developed in the ice, especially when they're hidden under a layer of snow and/or slush.

Here is a lesson (http://www.ride-strong.com/freak-bike-accident-view-with-caution/)about not following your buddies closely on the fast descent. I have twigs in the spoke on occasion and have seen expensive wheels ruined... of course it is the forest where there are a lot of branches :P

It's not just the number of spokes, but their shape as well. There are aerodynamic spokes that are blade or oval shaped that have sharp edges that dig in and lodge debris, like sticks, rather than deflecting it.

Guessing the lacing might be an issue too. It would be so easy for something to slip into one of those radially spoked (ie, not laced at all) wheels like you see so often these days on the front wheel. (Plus, these have to be very weak wheels, which is why you seldom see them on the back.)

These are almost as safe as disc wheels. (http://www.chubbyscruisers.com/shop/144_spoke_chrome_cruiser_wheels-p-182.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=organic)
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Radially laced wheels aren't drastically weaker than 3-cross. I've got a 32 hole radially laced front and a rear with radial NDS. Not my favorite wheelset, but not bad.

These are almost as safe as disc wheels. (http://www.chubbyscruisers.com/shop/144_spoke_chrome_cruiser_wheels-p-182.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=organic)
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Radially laced wheels aren't drastically weaker than 3-cross. I've got a 32 hole radially laced front and a rear with radial NDS. Not my favorite wheelset, but not bad.

They look bombproof, but guessing you'd need some pretty good metal in the rims with all the spoke holes. 144 spokes. Bet they weigh 5 pounds.

Chromed spokes too, 5lbs might be a conservative estimate, hehehe.

Definitely the wheels to get if you're concerned about twigs, however. Well, run one of those Tomac Tioga kevlar spoked disc deals in the back , I suppose. If you get a time machine and go back to 1992 (or whenever that was)

Here is a lesson (http://www.ride-strong.com/freak-bike-accident-view-with-caution/)about not following your buddies closely on the fast descent. I have twigs in the spoke on occasion and have seen expensive wheels ruined... of course it is the forest where there are a lot of branches :P

Good God.

Worst I can lay claim to is a big scar above my knee from trail running with a gal who "doesn't do long distance". After we got back to the car and I pulled out the first aid kit, she did another lap for a total of 13 miles while I cleaned myself up. Long distance my a$$.

With all the parts I've broken and/or worn out, it's hard to believe I've gotten off so easy with wheels and brakes. A big stick in the rear wheel tore off my rear derailleur (XTR) and derailleur hanger once but beyond that all I've lost is a single spoke.

Good God.

Worst I can lay claim to is a big scar above my knee from trail running with a gal who "doesn't do long distance". After we got back to the car and I pulled out the first aid kit, she did another lap for a total of 13 miles while I cleaned myself up. Long distance my a$$.

With all the parts I've broken and/or worn out, it's hard to believe I've gotten off so easy with wheels and brakes. A big stick in the rear wheel tore off my rear derailleur (XTR) and derailleur hanger once but beyond that all I've lost is a single spoke.

Hah, yeah... sticks come in all sorts of categories, from $100 to $1000 per use of stick.

You should have seen that coming... "oh i don't do long distances" or "man i'm sooo outta shape" are clues you are about to get dropped :D

The accident may have been avoided if I had the SKS fender mounts that release when enough force is put on them, but that is tough to say.

Since my accident I have had three co-workers with similar stories. One guy got a stick in his front wheel on a trail and he did a full flip in the air and landed on his back. He says he can recall seeing his young daughter's horrified face who was riding behind him when he was in the air. YIKES! Another guy's fender support came loose while riding at high speed down a trail and he did some major damage including a broken collar bone (this was last year). I regularly checked my fenders because of that one. I can't remember how the third guys wheel locked up because his story became very graphic explaining how he got his scrotum caught on the neck of the bike and it became swollen the size of a grapefruit. These accidents can happen pretty easy and when they do it is so fast there is no way to stop it.

In terms of avoiding the accident, I honestly never saw the stick.

I am sorry about you. I have witnessed a similar event myself, when my co-rider flew over the handlebars, cracking the helmet and a notebook and destroying the fork, after a twig got stuck in his wheel and locked the fender. His fender was Planet Bike, lacking safety releases. Needless to say, after he recovered, he would not ride without safety releases again. Myself, I learned then to ride with a helmet.

The accident in question happened when it was rainy and windy and there were many small twigs lying on the ground. The wheel was really locked by a twig rather than any serious stick, since we could pull it out at the end and could see that it served to trigger the event, with the fender actually doing the locking of the wheel.

I wonder what brand your fender has been. Since the accident, I have been advocating against the Planet Bike fenders as well as any other plastic fenders with no releases, just encountering persistent ridicule in these forums. Notably, metal fenders require no releases because they cannot fold and lock the wheel like plastic. One reason people cling to Planet Bike more than SKS-es is because PBs seem firmer. However, this seems to me liability as well. I suspect that, besides having the safety releases, SKS-es have intentionally some brittleness to make them fall apart when excessive forces are applied, rather than hanging on even for forces that destroy a fork.

I wish you a speedy recovery.

(Plus, these have to be very weak wheels, which is why you seldom see them on the back.)

Full radial is not actually very much weaker side-to-side, but it's not torsionally stiff, so it can't be used on a driving wheel, or a hub braked wheel.

Scary accident -- glad you're okay!

Can someone explain exactly what the safety breakaway on the SKS fenders protects against? Is it just that if a stick gets caught in the spokes and spins up, without breakaways, the stick pulls on the stays and bends the fender into the wheel, where it gets sucked up; whereas with breakaways, the stick just spins past the ends of the stays and the fender itself continues to stick out behind the wheel, more-or-less in its normal place? And the issue of the stick running into the fender stays is more of a worry than just having the stick get caught between the spokes and the fork, because the stick itself has a good chance of breaking, whereas the fenders don't?

I had a minor, low-speed incident with a Planet Bike fender getting bent forwards and sucked under itself by the wheel, and I guess that breakaway stays wouldn't have helped in my case since there was no stick involved; but now I'm a little worried and wondering if some other kind of fender design would have helped. At least there was no real damage in my case -- it was low enough speed that I could stop safely, the fender itself was torn but not destroyed, and some quick plier-work on the stays was good enough to get me home.

Can someone explain exactly what the safety breakaway on the SKS fenders protects against? Is it just that if a stick gets caught in the spokes and spins up, without breakaways, the stick pulls on the stays and bends the fender into the wheel, where it gets sucked up; whereas with breakaways, the stick just spins past the ends of the stays and the fender itself continues to stick out behind the wheel, more-or-less in its normal place? And the issue of the stick running into the fender stays is more of a worry than just having the stick get caught between the spokes and the fork, because the stick itself has a good chance of breaking, whereas the fenders don't?

I had a minor, low-speed incident with a Planet Bike fender getting bent forwards and sucked under itself by the wheel, and I guess that breakaway stays wouldn't have helped in my case since there was no stick involved; but now I'm a little worried and wondering if some other kind of fender design would have helped.

In the accident I witnessed, and had a chance to analyze, the sequence of events was more or less how you anticipate them. The stick got caught between the spokes. It bent the stays enough for the bottom of the fender to get caught by the wheel, bent over and sucked in-between the wheel and the rest of the fender held tight by the stays..

The safety releases would have helped, in my opinion, irrespectively of how the potential catching of the bottom of the fender were initiated. The releases would not have allowed for the fender to be held against the wheel, locking the wheel.

Having the stays jump of the releases is at times annoying but, in the end, I think is a little price for the safety. When needing, I have adjusted the force required for releasing the safety mounts, by careful application of a heat gun to tighten the hold.

What happens when you have a broken-away fender stay dangling beside your spokes?

What happens when you have a broken-away fender stay dangling beside your spokes?

usually just gets knocked around since it's not pointing in the right direction to get caught.

usually just gets knocked around since it's not pointing in the right direction to get caught.

On the ones i saw it looks like the fender stays attached near the hub... if it snapped off and slide forward over the axle, all is good. It seems to me that if it doesn't immediately slide over the axle when it breaks loose(from toe strike maybe?) it might get caught up in the spokes. Have you ever had one break free?

The fender involved in my accident was the planet bike fender. I think I might write a letter to them and MEC, where I bought the fender, advising them of the safety issue and the fact that there are options out there that may have prevented the accident.

BTW, I bought my new to me bike. It is a Rocky Mountain Hammer 29er with a rigid fork. It is a bit of a mess, but it was pretty cheap. I think I might run the type of fenders that don't use the fender stays. Those fenders have way less coverage, but I wouldn't have to worry about this type of accident.

I will post some pics of my new bike when I get it fixed up. Not nearly as classy as my Motobecane that succumbed to the stick, but it will get the job done in the winter months and when it rains.

I sent MEC and PlanetBike an email about my accident. PlanetBike responded very quickly and actually read both threads. They are developing a "Release Tab" that will be available later this year on their fenders. Sounds like good news.
MEC responded but didn't see any issue with the fenders. Well, PlanetBike sees an issue and is making a change so I guess MEC will be redeemed by association.

I sent MEC and PlanetBike an email about my accident. PlanetBike responded very quickly and actually read both threads. They are developing a "Release Tab" that will be available later this year on their fenders. Sounds like good news.
MEC responded but didn't see any issue with the fenders. Well, PlanetBike sees an issue and is making a change so I guess MEC will be redeemed by association.

Well i don't think MEC can really modify the product... It is interesting that PlanetBike is making plans to modify the front fender stay, a release tab might be handly if it also could double as a quick-release for easy fender removal and install. I'll be interested to see what they come up with. :thumb:

Rob Ray
You had a freak accident.On the other hand, maybe you saw this coming with an unusual amount of tree banches on the road?
Anyhow, this normally doesnt happen, and if you see this coming again, due to a storm taht leaves tree banches and sticks all over the road, tread on foot or drive!
If you think about it, you have alot of sticks in the forests trails, yet on a mtn bike, you're going alot slower, and rolling over sticks that stay down, under the tread.
Id use a mtn bike if theres some snowy road riding , but otherwise, that tour bike was good.