General Cycling Discussion - Making it Harder to Support LBS

I was all ready to make a purchase and a tool investment yesterday at my LBS. After commuting daily for 1 and a half years, my derailleur cables are in need of replacement. And so I went into my LBS (that does not have a good track record with me) once again, since they are on my route home. When I arrived I asked for the cable and housing that I would need for my bike to take home and change on my own, and also for any tools (knowing I would need a cable cutter). They had neither the housing (for my Diamondback mounatinbike) or a cable cutter tool in stock. The cutter I can sort of understand as it probably is not selling off their shelves quickly, but thier lack of having it shows a lack of support for the do it yourselfer in my mind. But the cable housing? SHouldn't that be a base stock item in any store?

I of course could make an order through them, but as I mentioned thier track record above, I don't want to wait 2-3 weeks and not be called, as they demonstrated before. And gettign answers to my questions such as can you tell by looking just how much length of cable and housing I will need? Was like pulling teeth. (Versus taking it all off first, because I want to pick up the items en route, and change them in one evening or weekend, instead of stripping my bike and having to drive in to get the parts).

Any comments?

Does sound like you have a winner there. Not.

I've been fortunate, something I have to convince myself of from time to time. Although the bikes we recently bought, I have recently seen cheaper, I have to hand it to the guys here at the LBS. I rode in with my daughter to pick her up a bottle cage. They mounted it for her. Then they throw mine up on the rack and check everything over and wipe the chain down and lube it. I mentioned having adjusted the front deraileur cable, and they were like "you shold have just dropped by, we'll take care of it". Good folks. A little pricey, but I think I'm getting my value in the service that they don't charge me for and the lifetime warrentee on the bike.

I think I found your LBS's twin here in Texas! I have ordered several things that take 2-3 weeks with no call and no concern.

Compare that to the fact that I can get things in 2 days from Performance. I would like to support my LBS (actually I am looking for a FBS) but not for that kind of poor service. I thought when the new owners took over it would get better...to no avail.

I am just learning as much as possible about DIY repairs.

I think I found your LBS's twin here in Texas! I have ordered several things that take 2-3 weeks with no call and no concern.

Compare that to the fact that I can get things in 2 days from Performance. I would like to support my LBS (actually I am looking for a FBS) but not for that kind of poor service. I thought when the new owners took over it would get better...to no avail.

Which LBS in the Houston area are you talking about? From your comments regarding "new owners", do you mean Bike Barn on FM 1960 (formerly Champion Cyclery)? Champion Cyclery had piss-poor service, but I've been quite happy with Bike Barn (so far).

Sverre

I think I found your LBS's twin here in Texas! I have ordered several things that take 2-3 weeks with no call and no concern.
.

2 to 3 weeks ! you are lucky I ordered some Nokia studded tyres from an LBS in Munich on 30th June 2004 and I am still waiting for them

I´ll stick to the internet next time

Not having a spool of cable housing on hand is like your grocery store not carrying bread & milk!

A little pricey, but I think I'm getting my value in the service that they don't charge me for and the lifetime warrentee on the bike.
I've found that any bike shop that is willing to stick it to you on the price will be more than happy to entertain you with little tweaks and adjustments here and there. I can't stand this, I'm more than willing to pay for service that I can't handle myself and don't want to be taxed with a surcharge upfront for services 'to be rendered.' :crash:

There are all kinds of bike stores - those just wanting to sell new bikes and those that have half the store set aside for parts stock and repair area and those in between.

There are 4 bike stores within 6 miles of my house, which are in the middle between a full service and just a seller. However, there is one bike store that is about 18 miles away that has half the store that is parts and repairs. Both times I've been in there needing parts they had them in stock.

First I was putting a seat on an old bike, the old guy in back took a look at the stem and seat I had brought in and he rattled off that it was an old Schwinn and new that not just any stem would work and new peddles also had to be special - not todays standard. He went to a parts bin and pulled out what I needed on the spot.

The second time was even better. I bought a used bike I was fixing up for riding this winter and it needed a new rear wheel, it was caved in one spot. This was a 7 speed indexed shimano bike with a cassette in back, not a freewheel. I brought the bike in and they had a replacement wheel in back, 7 speed in the correct spacing, not a 9 speed with a spacer. This bike looks like the guy never rode it, it is almost perfect, and a royal blue color. Well, the tires and tubes were original from 1993 and would not do, so he pulled a couple of fancy tires off the shelf with blue on the outsides that matched perfectly and discounted them 30%. The wheel was cheaper then I could find on the internet and only charged $8 labor for switching the cassette and putting new tires and tubes on both wheels.

That is a bike store I will be supporting, even thought I have to drive a lot farther to get to.

Mark

I would like to support my LBS (actually I am looking for a FBS)

What's an FBS?

What's an FBS? Free bike store?

What's an FBS?

Frankenstein Bowling Shirt

There are all kinds of bike stores - those just wanting to sell new bikes and those that have half the store set aside for parts stock and repair area and those in between.

There are 4 bike stores within 6 miles of my house, which are in the middle between a full service and just a seller. However, there is one bike store that is about 18 miles away that has half the store that is parts and repairs. Both times I've been in there needing parts they had them in stock.

First I was putting a seat on an old bike, the old guy in back took a look at the stem and seat I had brought in and he rattled off that it was an old Schwinn and new that not just any stem would work and new peddles also had to be special - not todays standard. He went to a parts bin and pulled out what I needed on the spot.

The second time was even better. I bought a used bike I was fixing up for riding this winter and it needed a new rear wheel, it was caved in one spot. This was a 7 speed indexed shimano bike with a cassette in back, not a freewheel. I brought the bike in and they had a replacement wheel in back, 7 speed in the correct spacing, not a 9 speed with a spacer. This bike looks like the guy never rode it, it is almost perfect, and a royal blue color. Well, the tires and tubes were original from 1993 and would not do, so he pulled a couple of fancy tires off the shelf with blue on the outsides that matched perfectly and discounted them 30%. The wheel was cheaper then I could find on the internet and only charged $8 labor for switching the cassette and putting new tires and tubes on both wheels.

That is a bike store I will be supporting, even thought I have to drive a lot farther to get to.

Mark

Sure, rub it in :eek: :D

What's an FBS?

Family Bike Store

What's an FBS?

I frequent many bike shops so I've started using the term Favourite Bike Shop (FBS) to distinguish one of them from the other LBSes since my FBS, which used to be my LBS, is no longer that local (moved ~30 miles away). In my mind, the FBS is the one store that you've developed a pretty good long term relationship with and knows you personally, has everything you need or can easily get it for you, goes out of their way for your loyalty and hardly ever does you wrong and when they screw up will rectify the situation to the best of their abilities. There is one shop like that for me and I continue to go to them for most of my major purchases as well as for service. I do shop other shops though but when I'm in need of something critical or my bikes have to have that special attention, the FBS gets my business.

Well the shop I recently bought bikes from just made it harder for me to support them today. It's a family shop that's been here long enough that I remember drooling in their shop when I was in middle school. They have a price match +10% policy within 60 days. My wife and I have bought 2004 Expedition Sports in the last month. Unrelated, we also bought my daughter a bike ($240) plus helmets, bags, water bottles, 2 computers, mirrors, all in all we've spent probably $1200 there in the last month. I spotted 2005s in another store on Sunday while killing time, at $40 less than what we paid. I talked to the manager and agreed to take the difference in store credit, but they wouldn't price match it because they were not 2004 models. So I couldn't get a price match on model year newer bikes than what I bought 3-4 weeks ago.

Since I was willing to take it in store credit, it would have cost them maybe $35 to make it right with me. Instead I went right across the street (literally) to Performance and bought rear racks and trunk bags for our bikes, a lock, and a couple sets of patches. Total sale was a few cents shy of $140. I still have one kid that needs a Wally World bike replaced, a new helmet, etc.

My LBS manager made a bad business decision today.

Price matching is just that, matching. Same year. model, spec. Would you expect a match if you had found a discounted 2003? We want to keep customers, but we also need to make a profit. Bike spec can change quite a bit from year to year. You bought Expiditions, from 2003 to 2004 for they had a big spec jump and price drop. The manufacturer also cut their (retail) margin. That means thaie posted retail price is lower, as is the margin of profit as the cost to us did not drop equally. We did not carry the bikes, Giant had better retail price and margin, so they got the floor space.

It is always hard to support the LBS even if they are great. It is just so hard for them to compete with online retailers offering much better prices. If all of the purchases i have made at my LBS were made online and all of the purchases i have made online were purchased at my LBS, I would have virutally nothing. :(

I don't enjoy giving them the end around but I enjoy watching my dollar go further. Also the fact that a LBS "has to make a profit" is none of my concern for the most part. The market place controls this, it is not my responsiblity to ensure they get a profit anymore than it is the LBS's responsibility that they never go out of business.

Price matching is just that, matching. Same year. model, spec. Would you expect a match if you had found a discounted 2003? We want to keep customers, but we also need to make a profit. Bike spec can change quite a bit from year to year. You bought Expiditions, from 2003 to 2004 for they had a big spec jump and price drop. The manufacturer also cut their (retail) margin. That means thaie posted retail price is lower, as is the margin of profit as the cost to us did not drop equally. We did not carry the bikes, Giant had better retail price and margin, so they got the floor space.

The Reverend is right...price matching is an apples to apples exercise...no reason to say sour grapes
if you're trying to re-negotiate based on model year...

I'd agree except for two things: The only difference between the 04 and 05 models is color, and there was no price change, I was told this when they ordered the mens bike for me. Additionally, I found later that what they charged me was $20 over the MSRP. Well, $19.95 over.

It's not sour grapes. It was a business decision. I would have made a different decision in my business with a customer that had spent that much money in so short a time. I know some of you guys spend that much as a deposit on a bike, but regardless, it's not a small chunk of change. As a consumer, I won't buy there again when I have another option within sight of that store.

I feel I was overcharged, and when given the opportunity to make it right, they chose not to. So I have choices to make, and I won't throw good money after bad.

I love my LBS! This is to say the one I use now. The place I bought my bike sold me a bike too big for me. Didn't know this until I had a great fit just today from my shop. They installed my aero bar (that I bought online...it was three times as much at the BS) but they didn't mind at all. And this hour long bike fit that he did for me ($100 according to the charge board) he only charged me $25 for it!! And I didn't even buy my bike at his shop. So I love them for service, information, shootin the breeze...but they are a bit pricy.

P.S. Bicycles Inc...Bedford!! They are the best!

The cutter I can sort of understand as it probably is not selling off their shelves quickly, but thier lack of having it shows a lack of support for the do it yourselfer in my mind.

I can get you a cable cutter fast if you still need one: CN-10 Park Tool (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27953&item=3693919253&tc=photo). ;)

I know the feeling. I took my Trek 7100 in for maintainence. Because the LBS said it was "absolutely necessary" for "Warranty". So, I take the bike to them. Waited 4 days to get it back, which is understandable. But When I got my bike back there was no lube on the chain or anywhere else, The front brakes were scrubbing and my front wheel would barely turn. My shifters didnt shift to all the gears like they had before. My tires were 30lbs low. So I had to redo everything the LBS did to make my bike rideble again. :mad: BRAND NEW BIKE! Had flashbacks of the Wally World back for a few days after that. :eek: They did get an ear full when I called them back to complain. ;) :D

I'd agree except for two things: The only difference between the 04 and 05 models is color, and there was no price change, I was told this when they ordered the mens bike for me. Additionally, I found later that what they charged me was $20 over the MSRP. Well, $19.95 over.

It's not sour grapes. It was a business decision. I would have made a different decision in my business with a customer that had spent that much money in so short a time. I know some of you guys spend that much as a deposit on a bike, but regardless, it's not a small chunk of change. As a consumer, I won't buy there again when I have another option within sight of that store.

I feel I was overcharged, and when given the opportunity to make it right, they chose not to. So I have choices to make, and I won't throw good money after bad.

Well...MSRP stands for Minimum Suggested Retail Price. To be charged $20 over that I would suggest does not constitute unfair pricing on the part of the dealer. The freight the dealer paid for bringing the bike in is about that much. I really can't see how an issue of $19.95 translates into taking your business elsewhere, but then again it's your money and what in your estimation constitutes fair play.

I'm still looking for that "FBS" up here in NorCal...either the LBS have huge hi-end inventory and snoby sales people(rescently I was passed over by 2 new incomming customers looking for hi-end over my entery-level purchace needs @ the "popular" LBS), or awesome sales service and not much inventory...aka 1 of each size(damit they were out of the 53c @ $60 under the rest!).
If anyone has a FBS in the North Bay area, let me know!

:(

Well...MSRP stands for Minimum Suggested Retail Price.
Wow. I always thought it meant Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price...

I bought my bike from the LBS. When buying I specifically made sure they can provide a low-rider front rack for it. Sure, no problem. After 500kms or so I took the bike back for the free tune-up. While I was there I asked about the rack. Sure, no problem, they could order it for tomorrow. OK, I said, go ahead and order.

The next day I went to get my bike back. Surprise, err... there's a problem. The rack would take a couple of days to arrive. OK, I said, I will pick it up on my commute later. Which I did. Turned out the rack would not fit in the bike. I took rack and bike back, they went, sure, no problem, they'll fix it in no time - tomorrow, actually. Not OK, I said, I need it done today. After 30 mins of "fixing it" there still was a problem, the rack would not fit.

They ordered another rack which took a week to deliver, then they almost managed to install it, with just a few parts left over which were handed over to me in a plastic back. I said sure, no problem, and walked out of the door (haven't been back since). Right across the street there's a small no-name workshop with an extremely competent mechanic-owner. It took him all 10 minutes to re-assemble the rack. He is my FBS now.

--J

MSRP: Minimum? Thanks for the laugh. I won't retype everything that I dug into last night while the server was being moved, but I'll leave it at this: On further checking, I find that they have exceeded all "minimum" expectations on each item that I bought from them. I've been overcharged (compared the the "minimum" manufacturer's suggested price) by about $200.

Maybe it's Maximum Suggested....

...or Median Suggested.....

Wow. I always thought it meant Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price...

When it comes to major brands of bikes, MSRP seems to mean "Mandatory Suggested Retail Price".

MSRP: Minimum? Thanks for the laugh. I won't retype everything that I dug into last night while the server was being moved, but I'll leave it at this: On further checking, I find that they have exceeded all "minimum" expectations on each item that I bought from them. I've been overcharged (compared the the "minimum" manufacturer's suggested price) by about $200.


OK...OK...I goofed on that one...pardon my sloppiness...one of the benefits of this forum is that there's a lot of sharp eyes scrutinizing posts...thanks for pointing this out!

I'm still looking for that "FBS" up here in NorCal...either the LBS have huge hi-end inventory and snoby sales people(rescently I was passed over by 2 new incomming customers looking for hi-end over my entery-level purchace needs @ the "popular" LBS), or awesome sales service and not much inventory...aka 1 of each size(damit they were out of the 53c @ $60 under the rest!).
If anyone has a FBS in the North Bay area, let me know!

:(

When I find one, I'll let you know. So far I've been to Bicycle Odyssey, Mike's Bikes (Sausalito and San Rafael stores), REI and Performance. The latter two I went to for price, the Mike's Bikes branches are close to work and home respectively and I was told that Bicycle Odyssey was *the* place to go for people who know what they're doing. Which ones have you tried?

Paul

the old adage goes: if you are a business and you do something great, the customer will tell a couple of people...but if you screw up (real or perceived) the customer tells everyone they meet.

There aren't very many bike shops around here, but luckily one of them is really good.

My family has brought in several different bikes to have puncture-proofed (apparently they use a thicker tube and liner, and slime), and I bought my bike from them. They have a 60 day tune-up after I buy the bike, which seems pretty good, and after that it might only be $10 or so.

Well...MSRP stands for Minimum Suggested Retail Price.

It is Manufacturer's NOT minimum. And for any scrupulous business, MSRP would be the Maximum price to charge. Anything over MSRP is a ripoff.

Tonight's LBS experience:

I went in with a low-end Blackburn floor pump I'd bought at the "Super Sale" for about $18 a couple weeks ago. It was pushing air out of where the barrel meets the base at about 90 PSI. They didn't have any more packaged, and only one "on the floor", so we tried it. The presta head gasket was shot. So we put the head from my pump onto the store's pump. It pumped a tire up to about 105-110, and started blowing air out the same way. Poor sales guy even broke off a presta stem on a floor bike in the process.

Anyway, he went into the nether regions of the store, to try to create a better seal on the barrel. Meanwhile, I poked around at the shoes (I'm in the market for a pair of road shoes). A few minutes later he emerges, and what does he lay in the snot-stained glove on my hand but a full-packaged brand new $35 Park Tool PFP-3 pump! "Sorry, we couldn't fix it, just take this one," he says. Thing is, Roger, the owner, owns another store a coupla miles away. I offered to cruise over there and pick up some $20-ish pump instead, but he insisted I take the Park pump. Dang, that is customer service!

'Course, Roger doesn't encourage that kind of service just because he's a nice guy (which he is, BTW). He knows it pays off. Yeah, I'd burned 20 minutes of prime road-riding daylight dealing with that pump, but I still got 30-ish miles in. On the way home (actually, going a coupla miles out of my way), I stopped in at his other store to do some more shoe shopping. There's a pair of Sidis going on sale next week I'm seriously thinking about now.

There is one bike shop mechanic that I've dealt with in my area that has my confidence. So, whenever I need something a little bit "off-the-wall" that isn't carried by one of the internet shops, I order from him. But, just lately I had my rear STI shifter fail (after about 8,500 miles). I called my LBS first to see if he had just the rear shifter-brake lever assembly available. He didn't. Then I checked his price for new 105's, $300.00. They were $160.00 online. I told him that the price diff was just too much to ignore. He understood. I went by his shop a few days later and did pick up some odds and ends and ordered a chainring that wasn't available from the online stores. We all pretty much try to do what seesm right, I'm sure. You give the LBS the business you can, without it tearing holes in your wallet.

I have been to the majority of LBS's in the Reno/Sparks area. While taking my kid to the local skate park, I asked one of the older (19?) bmx guys there about his bike. Said he bought it at Mother Lode bikes in Sparks, and that they were highly recommended. I took it with a grain of salt. I commenced my search, found some decent bike shops, a couple of crappy ones, and just in general wasn't too impressed. Then I checked out Mother Lode.

WOW. Great service. I bought a Blackburn frame pump there, on their recommendation and like it alot. I am wanting to rebuild my bike, and went in there last weekend to get pricing and get lots of questions answered. I was there for about 40 minutes, looking around and asking questions. At one point, one of the guys sat down with me at the parts counter and was really cool, just chatting and answering questions and helping me figure things out.

They've got my vote. The only time I will *ever* order online is if ML can't get the part or something like that. Or if the price difference is just too great, and they won't budge.

One of my next purchases is a MTB clipless setup, and a decent helmet, and bike shorts. I'll be shopping there, not online.

I've had two bad dealings and one very good dealing with LBS's in three states. The first was in California. I purchased a Raleigh road bike. Since it was only 5 miles home I elected to ride it. In 5 miles miles virtually every fastener had come loose on the bike, even the BB. I went through the whole thing with a fine tooth comb. After that no more problems. A few months later I bought another bike (a BMX for dirt trails). This time I hauled the bike home since I had moved. Guess what? Everything was loose! A week later I had the bearings in the pedals fail (cone was pitted, and this was without any hard riding). "Sorry, have to buy new pedals, failure not under warranty". Luckily they had some old pedals I was able to rob a cone from. Unfortunately he was the only Raleigh dealer in the area. The second bad experience was in Washington State when I bought my Trek 1000 road bike. The assembly was fair but there were still things loose after a short shakedown cruise. I had the bike about two weeks and one of the cones on the front hub developed a pit. Guess what? "Not under warranty since you could have hit a pot hole and damaged it, buy a new hub, or a new cone if we have one". Yeah, right!
I must say my last bike purchase went very well at an Ohio dealer. I bought a recumbent. The dealer assisted with the setup (the dealers of my previous two bikes didn't lift a finger or try to assist). At 100 miles I brought the recumbent back for the 100 mile checkup, which was free. All of the fasteners, and adjustments were good but he did some fine tweaking all the same. There were a couple of marginally tight bolts on the chainrings and he retensioned the spokes but no real show stoppers. As I left he said "see you at 1000 miles!" Yes, I did pay MSRP for the bike, but not a penny more. He has readily answered all of my questions via e-mail or phone calls. It is a real pleasure doing business with someone like that. I would recommend him in a heart beat.

'bent Brian

There is one bike shop mechanic that I've dealt with in my area that has my confidence. So, whenever I need something a little bit "off-the-wall" that isn't carried by one of the internet shops, I order from him. But, just lately I had my rear STI shifter fail (after about 8,500 miles). I called my LBS first to see if he had just the rear shifter-brake lever assembly available. He didn't. Then I checked his price for new 105's, $300.00. They were $160.00 online. I told him that the price diff was just too much to ignore. He understood. I went by his shop a few days later and did pick up some odds and ends and ordered a chainring that wasn't available from the online stores. We all pretty much try to do what seesm right, I'm sure. You give the LBS the business you can, without it tearing holes in your wallet.

You've hit the key here. Reading my previous posts this thread, it seems like I've gone from one extreme to the other, so I will try to clarify that a bit. The guys at my LBS are fantastic. The crew is young, but they seem to be very knowlegable and are very friendly. I'm not a novice when it comes to maintenance, as the family raced BMX for a while and I maintained all the bikes, but the bikes we have now are slightly different beasts. I would not hesitate to have them do any work that was beyond my scope, and I would trust them to do it right. If I walk in, they address me by name and they ask how the riding is going, if there are any problems with the bikes, etc. It just sticks in my crawl that I paid over retail for not only the bikes, but helmets, pump, etc. and I will shop around before I buy the next bike, to replace the -mart bike my son has. Price isn't eveything, but it is something. I certainly don't want them to go away, but finding the same bikes at another small independant shop 5 miles away for $40 less really hurt.

I was in a LBS the other day, the first time I had been there. Looking at the tool racks and peg boards, I thought to myself that this store doesn't sell much in the way of tools.

The counter guy asked if he could help me. I told him i needed a spoke wrench.
He opened a cabinet to get a wrench, and inside this cabinet was just about every tool in the Park catalog. He just didn't have the stuff on display. Very strange, but then again nothing in a LBS says quality better than park tools.

Tom

I belive in sharing the wealth; that is supporting LBS and getting great deals on the various on line bicycle shops. If your LBS is not to your liking try another and another even if it is a little bit out of your way. LBS can be helpfull in offering advise or if you are trying to fix something on your bike and you get "stuck" LBS will help you out. I like to "tip" LBS for their advise or help a coulpe of dollars. It also builds a sense of community. Personally I would like to in the future to open up my own bicycle shop so I like to visit many of them and there is a wide range of attitude, service, ect...