Electric Bikes - Some basic questions - my first eBike

First off, let me say Hi, been busy catching up in the forums and doing a lot of research. I gave up owning a car and my license years ago and I just dusted off my old daily driver to be my first "subject".

The bike is going to basically get me weekend fishing in the Rockies just west of Calgary, and I'll camp and fish with it as the base, maybe with a solar battery charger to help where power isn't available. The round trip is mostly flat, but west to east so I expect a headwind. Overall distance is about 150 KM, with maybe 30-40KM where I can't easily recharge.

To be short, I decided on a Nine Continent Kit, but mostly because of the addons and features that the vendor dropped into the package. I read Justin's account of his ride across Canada and drooled so much over the electronics and thought put into it. I also like some of the mods, such as regenerative braking.

At the middle of this area I can't charge in is a 16KM downhill grade which I think could come in handy, or just cook the electronics and fry the batteries. Certainly, the new LiFePO4 batteries may help out since they appear to have a "fast charge" mode and they don't seem prone to cooking off.

Battery-wise, I found some 12V 26Ah SLA's at a very nice price, a solar 12V charger that might disappoint, a very good price for light LiFePO4 batteries, all of which I would provide links for if I weren't very cautious as a new guy...

The first battery set (while I save for the drool material) is going to be those SLA's, but they weigh a total of 36lbs, so I need to expand to a trailer. I'm still thinking of adding a dual-motor controller later and adding a hub motor to the trailer, but have questions as to the effect of a trailer suspension...

Good choice on the nine continent. That's a pretty efficient motor. For the batteries, I'd go with a 36v40 AH Thundersky or Sky Energy from evcomponents.com.

You could get 30 x 2 = 60 miles out of the pack easily without pedaling. If you pedal, you could easily get 80 miles out of it without the pack even breaking a sweat.

They are kind of expensive but these are the cheapest and best lifepo4 for your money on the internet. I recently bought the same kind but I got a 36v20AH thundersky.

$44 for a 3.2v 40AH cell
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP40AHA

Get 12 cells for 36v. That'd be about 12 x 44 = $530 + shipping and extra = $600. The same pack at other places would cost you probably $1000.

It's up to you. I recently upgraded to lifepo4 and it's amazing. The difference is huge. You'll be spending probably $150 - $200 for the SLA's anyway. Remember that once you are done riding with the SLA's, you have to let them cool and then charge them immediately. You don't have to do that with lithium. The lifepo4 will last you 5 years or more or 2000 charges. The SLA's might last a year.

If you do get lifepo4, make sure you learn how to properly use them.

First off, let me say Hi, been busy catching up in the forums and doing a lot of research. I gave up owning a car and my license years ago and I just dusted off my old daily driver to be my first "subject".

The bike is going to basically get me weekend fishing in the Rockies just west of Calgary, and I'll camp and fish with it as the base, maybe with a solar battery charger to help where power isn't available. The round trip is mostly flat, but west to east so I expect a headwind. Overall distance is about 150 KM, with maybe 30-40KM where I can't easily recharge.

To be short, I decided on a Nine Continent Kit, but mostly because of the addons and features that the vendor dropped into the package. I read Justin's account of his ride across Canada and drooled so much over the electronics and thought put into it. I also like some of the mods, such as regenerative braking.

At the middle of this area I can't charge in is a 16KM downhill grade which I think could come in handy, or just cook the electronics and fry the batteries. Certainly, the new LiFePO4 batteries may help out since they appear to have a "fast charge" mode and they don't seem prone to cooking off.

Battery-wise, I found some 12V 26Ah SLA's at a very nice price, a solar 12V charger that might disappoint, a very good price for light LiFePO4 batteries, all of which I would provide links for if I weren't very cautious as a new guy...

The first battery set (while I save for the drool material) is going to be those SLA's, but they weigh a total of 36lbs, so I need to expand to a trailer. I'm still thinking of adding a dual-motor controller later and adding a hub motor to the trailer, but have questions as to the effect of a trailer suspension...

Cowtown Peddler,

Welcome. If you're really interested in LIFEPO4s at an affordable price, have you looked at the ThunderSky 4-cell pack (prismatic) offered by Elite Power Solutions? http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=74
The 20AH 4-cell (12V) pack is $128 USD and the 40AH 4-cell pack is $240 USD (without balancers) or $275 with balancers. You can wire these 12V packs in series to create the size battery that you need. If you buy a pack without balancers, you shouldn't have a problem adding a BMS boad, just make sure the specs of the BMS match your controller's demand for amps. I'm not sure what shipping would cost to Canada, but it should be cheaper than ordering a LIFEPO4 pack from China. Anyway, welcome and good luck. If you haven't checked it out, I'd suggest you go to the Endless Sphere forums since the only bikes they discuss are e-bikes. It's a marvelous source for info on all things e-bike related. http://endless-sphere.com/forums

or yeah, elitepowersolutions.com is good too.. That's where I bought mine.

Yeah, found a US manufacturer can do 36V20AH with charger for about $520usd, the SLA's will cost $210 without a charger, the SLA's are 16lbs heavier and overall weight is a factor. If I do two LiFePO packs, I end up 4 lbs heavier than the SLA's, so I'm saving.

Just not really sure how far 26AH will get me with pedalling and such. I also just discovered aluminum front forks so I'm thinking of starting small and investing to beef the frame up. I can stretch this over time and do it right, I think.

You may find that SLA provides an adequate range if you're willing to pedal. I live in the Rockies of Montana, west of Glacier National Park. I installed my Currie conversion kit last summer and have not had problems traveling 25 miles with 1 SLA battery (still had juice left in the battery when I got home). However, I pedal and reserve power assist for steep hills. I'm planning on building my own 24V 20AH LIFEPO4 with the 4-cell packs from Elite Power Solutions. I've been dragging my feet because I've been torn between LIFEPO4, which is safer, and the high C value of the more dangerous LiPoly batteries. The delay has worked to my advantage because Elite is now offering free shipping for orders placed online.

With lifepo4, you don't want to use more than 80 % of your pack and that's with a BMS. So lets say you use about 15 AH. The 15 AH on a lifepo4 pack should get you about 30 miles. I get 2 miles for every AH and that's without pedaling. If you pedal, you'll get more.

yeah if you want 20AH cells, elitepowersolutions is actually cheaper than evcomponents I think. For some reason, though, EPS's 40 AH cells are a lot more expensive than evcomponents.

With SLA's, I could barely get 3 miles range out of my batteries. When I switched to lifepo4, I get tons of range. I still haven't actually maxed the battery out yet. I think part of it is that lifepo4 doesn't have a peurkert effect like SLA so when you are in the middle of the run, you still have about as much juice as you had at the beginning. Whereas in SLA, if you are in the middle of the run, the battery is almost dead and therefore , it can't carry you as far and so it's like two times as bad.

Well, the EB-20-12 pack from ElitePower at $439 uses 3 ThunderSky 4 cell packs and as far as I can see, this is the cheapest and possibly the best value for LiFePO packs I have been able to find - and it ships from the US...

The SLA's I found are all about 12lbs each and the best Ah per weight seems to be the Leoch DJW12-26 (12V 26Ah).. Never mind any other options, I checked them all and a 20Ah pack would cost anywhere between $700usd and $2200 (A123 developer kit)... DeWalt batteries would cost more than that....

Still not sure why you would have such horrible performance on yer SLA's - I was reading about 4-6mi per Ah is normal, and to only get 3mi, you would have to be very heavy, not peddling and speeding uphill in a headwind with a fully loaded trailer. Doesn't make sense to me. Hopefully someone can add some real-world observations here.

I finally broke down and decided to go for the rear hub drive, I've already gone flying off a MTB at 40mph and I don't want to try my luck like that again, and I don't see a short term need to beef up the MTB frame before carefully considering other frame options (recumbent). The chances of my aluminum front forks giving are way too high.

I had originally had this idea of a front hub drive, trailer hub motor and this neat chain kit I saw from Czechosolvakia with a freewheeling crank. The power requirements would be huge and I've decided that's overkill, never mind slightly "illegal" in Canada due to legal speed limitations. At least with the hub motors and the kit, I can "set" a maximum speed to comply and confuse....

Still, back to the regen question and range... I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that the obvious problem with regen cooking electronics and batteries must be related to either voltage or amperage being fed back from the hub during the regen cycle. Certainly, I would have to be very careful with SLA's, and less careful with LiFePO. This brings the question...

I've been seeing LiFePo chargers up to 6A (http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=79) and I'm pretty sure that an SLA would cook off if I charged it at that rate for a long period. (Actually, there's a 20A version of that charger) I'm not so sure that a solar charger is worthwhile (see: http://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=420 ) since it takes 12 hours to charge a 12V 40Ah car battery, it would take (estimated) 18 hours to charge a 36V 20Ah SLA, and I'm not so sure it could be "altered" to work with the LiFePO cells (see: http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=74 )

The kit I'll be buying has regen, and uses the throttle and regen braking to charge, with two basic modes... You can use the throttle during regen braking to increase the regen, or not touch the throttle. I assume that not touching the throttle would "prevent" the possibility of cooking electronics and using the throttle *may* be very useful with LiFePO batteries - if I could ever get some sort of info on this "fast charge" capability. Apparently using the "fast charge" can shorten the cycle life of the batteries. That 16KM (10mi) downhill grade could come in useful after all... Shame there's a fully serviced campground at the base of the hill.

There are many threads on the regen issue on the web but the general consensus seems to be that it doesn't do that much to extend range and certainly effects average speed because in order to get the most out of regen you will be going downhill slower than you are able to go up. It works better in automobiles because they are much heavier.

The surest way to extend range is to pedal along with the motor. I call this staying on top of the motor and you will see what that means when you get to ride one. You just need to find the right gear(s) to do this and as much effort as you want to apply will be repaid in extended range. Doing this I can get 40 miles (64k) out of a 12Ah LiFePO4 battery in hilly terrain without using my regen, although I do use a brushless hub which has a good amount of drag, but the regen is so strong that my setup on a pusher trailer just skids the tire when it is applied. Great for coming to a stop though! Actually I have never used more than 8.2Ah of my battery and have yet to come up against the BMS which is fine with me because the hub motor drag is so bad that although my pusher setup is relatively light it is like riding a resistance trainer and without the assist it would not be fun to drag it home. More likely I would just hide it beside the road and continue on and come back and get it later, or at least that is my backup plan.

Here is the Czech chain drive kit I was mentioning earlier - verrah sexy.... http://www.bike-elektro-antrieb.ch/home.htm I was wrong, it's Swiss... You might have some issues is you don't read the language, but....

I wouldn't bother with regen. I've heard it doesn't really help that much.

If you want to know how long it would take to charge your lifepo4 batteries, take the capacity and divide it by the amps being charged with.

So if you have a 12v40AH pack and you are using a Black and Decker 12v charger and you use 2 amp charge, then it would take 20 hours to charge it if the battery was totally depleted. If you have a 12v20AH pack and you only use half the pack (10AH used) and you charge with 10 amps then it would take only 1 hour to charge that pack. I use a 12v black and decker SLA charger on mine and I put it on the "Gel" setting and it works fine. I got 3 of those 12v20AH packs from elitepowersolutions.com and I charge it one 12v pack at a time and my charger can do 2/10/15 amps. Most of the time, I use 2 amp charge since I don't normally use a lot of the pack when I ride. The recommended charge rate on the 20AH packs are .3C which is 20 * .3 = 6 amps. So the recommended charger would be a 6 amp charger for the 20AH packs but using 10 amps probably wouldn't hurt it but I wouldn't go much higher than that.

You can also get a 36v 6 amp charger somewhere online and that should work as well. The first charge, though, I would monitor all the cells to make sure none of the cells go above about 3.8v per cell. So if you have a 36v lifepo4 pack with 12 cells...the total charge should not go over about 3.8 x 12 = 45.6 . I normally charge mine to 3.65v per cell which is about 43.8v hot off the charger then they settle down to about 42.9v after a while.

And if you want to monitor your cells, this is a great way of doing it...it has an alarm on it so if you go to low on your cells, it will warn you. Remember you dont' want to go below about 2.5v per cell on lifepo4 or you will ruin the cells. This is an 8 cell monitor for about $29. You'd need one more to cover all your cells.
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9282&Product_Name=Cell-Log_Cell_Voltage_Monitor_2-8S_Lipo

So the solar charger at just over 2A would take 13 hours for ea of my SLA cells *3 = 39 hours of sunlight. It would take 10h to charge each of the LiFePO batteries (20Ah*3 batteries [4 cell LiFePO units]) = 30 hours of sunlight at the end of my ride. I need to rethink the SLA charging for sure at 2A... I wasn't going to do my "trip" until I had the LiFePO's.

I have two routes - north with a serviced campground (sounds good right now at 50KM/30mi) and south (about 65KM/41mi, a parking lot) - where I'll get with only sunlight to recharge with and only one day to camp. Solar charging is most definitely out....

The upside of the south route is that I only have to ride through 2 creek valleys in beautiful subalpine terrain (11 KM) to hit a long downhill (16KM) - after that downhill is a campground with service, and then it's a flat ride (50KM/30mi) home. I'd include maps, terrain models and such for this trip but...

My one constraint was that I have to do it in a weekend, with hopefully some time for prime flyfishing for brook, cutthroat, rainbow and bull trout, all very world class. I'd leave Friday nite and be back hopefully Sunday dinner with time to clean up before work. This means I have to shave lbs off my camping and fishing gear because easily 1/2 the weight in the trailer will be batteries.

I had already decided on the 6A charger for the LiFePO4 (3.3h recharge time)...

One thing you probably have never considered about owning a car and having a driver's license is that you are tracked in every police database by your driver's license number. As a culture-jammer, I have no reason to be so tracked. As a tree-hugger, I can't justify burning a tank of gas to get to where I can launch a bike. I need to get there, and I want to relax and have a good time, and this eBike may just help me go be happy for a while. Endorphins are good, adrenalin is awesome, but why overtax the glands?

137183

I may be a little under on some of the mileage estimates for the goals....

I just realized the $439 LiFePO packs include the charger... Even cheaper and they look quite nice...

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Conversion Kit (Vancouver)
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php
1 X NC26R [26 inch rear Nine Continent Kit (2807 hub, 25A Infineon Controller, throttle, Cycle Analyst)] $490.00 (cad)
2X TorqArmRev3 [Front Universal Torque Arm with double hose clamp.] - $60.00 (cad)
1 X eZeeEbrake [Ebrake Cutoff Lever, uses magn reed switch. All metal constr.]$40.00 (cad)
1 X 35A_upgrade [Swap 25A controller for larger 35A model] $10.00
Looks like shipping will be 20-30 bucks ($650 max)

Battery: (Phoeniz, AZ)
http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php?cPath=26_8
36V20AH (EB-20-12) $439.20 -> 20lbs
Charger (TSL36-6) $79.20
Shipping:

What can I do with a Lead Acid of 20 lbs
14Ah – 9.26*3= 27.78 lbs (http://www.atbatt.com/product/22081.asp) $50
20Ah – 13.*3 = 39lbs (http://www.atbatt.com/product/22082/sla/ritar/12v-18ah/battery) $51
22Ah – 12*3 = 36lbs (http://www.atbatt.com/product/22505.asp) $47 ea
26Ah – 12*3=36lbs (http://www.atbatt.com/product/22508/sla/ritar/12v-26ah/battery) $69
* Suggest the 26Ah - $210, charger extra

http://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=420 to charge ($620)
** Note – looks like it could charge the ElitePower battery, takes a day to charge a 12v 40Ah)
http://www.r-charge.com/RC_rc2a122.html
** Battery conditioner

Bedini's Free Energy Generator.How it started.
I was cleaning a kitchen one day with George Pringle in Tofino. He mentioned that he wanted to build a device to charge batteries, but he wasn't sure how to go about it. I asked him to show me what he had and I would do my best to try to figure it out.

I have to admit, the theory stumped me, but I was able to read the diagrams enough to figure out how to build one of these devices.

I'm hoping I can get my nephew to build one for a science fair project when he gets old enough. Maybe I'll get around to it sooner, ya never know.

Diagrams "A-Field" Motor Theory Diagram

<many diagrams not included...>

Except from John Bedini's Website
FOREWORD


Imagine having a small D.C. electrical motor sitting on your laboratory bench powered by a common 12 volt battery. Imagine starting with a fully charged battery and connecting it to the motor with no other power input. Obviously, the motor is going to run off the battery, but by conventional thinking it will stop when the battery runs down.


Impossible, you say. Not at all. That's precisely what I have done and the motor is running now in my workshop.

<etc>

The rest of the paper shows how he took 1 dead SLA and used this device to fully charge it once he had it spun up from a partially charged SLA.....

if you get lifepo4, just make sure you never go below 2.5v per cell or about 30v total for a 36v pack. It's the individual cell voltage that matters, though. That usually only happens once you get 95 % of the pack used, though so on a 20AH pack, that would be most likely after you've already used about 18 or 19 AH of the pack. I say "most likely" because we don't know the exact capacity of each pack. It's a good idea to buy a 8s Celllog monitor for $29 to be sure. Or, just make sure you never get close enough to doing. I only use about 50 % of my pack so I know that I'll never get close. Also, using 80 % or less of your pack, prolongs the life of the lifepo4 pack. It's just like lead acid in this regard. A watt meter where you can count the # of AH used is also an option. I have a $25 Turnigy watt meter. I would have rather bought a 8s celllog monitor, though instead and just bought one more celllog monitor.
you can get one at hobbyking. There's also a couple more models there that are 6s cell log monitors that do the same thing are a little cheaper but might not be as good of quality. Great thing about these is that they have an alarm and a programable low voltage setting so you can set the lvc to whatever you want and it will alert you when one of the cells goes that low.
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/catalog/CL8S.jpg

No worries, it's a feature...

Also, the first time you charge the pack, make sure you monitor all the cells. None of the cells can go above 4.2v or they will be damaged (overcharged). The cells are technically charged once they reach about 3.65v just so you know. After I monitored my pack the first time, I didn't monitor them after that. There is a little bit more involved with lifepo4 in monitoring them but it's not that hard. I use a 12v black and decker charger for mine. I didn't buy the elitepowersolutions charger because someone told me that it sucked. I use two chargers...

1) 12v black and decker 2/10/15 amp charger
2) 3.2v 2amp lifepo4 charger

The 3.2v lifepo4 charger is for topping off the individual cells. If you aren't going to get a BMS, this is pretty much a very good idea. The reason is that you want to maintain your cells to be somewhat balanced. They don't have to be perfect but if you builk charge them (use a voltage like 12v or 36v on them ) then you run a possibility of overcharging one cell if they are not balanced very well. So the first time you charge them, it's a good idea to charge each one individually and then bulk charge them after that.

How I charge mine is that I set a timer and I use my black and decker to charge one 12v pack to about 80 % completion then I use 3 individual 3.2v chargers to top each cell off. This is my "BMS" (battery management system). You can also buy a BMS circuit board to do this kind of thing automatically but I do mine manually since I got the time and patience to do it.

Yeah, I can only hope the 4 cell units have a BMS, no info yet.. All I can say at this time is that "they look cool"....

I'll let ya know on the charger, I haz the gearzorz...

As for the cells, I was hoping to top them off via solar, mebbe no luck there, but... I found some flexible cells out of China (*ugh*) and I *might* have a product out of the USA...

Thanks to all for the info... Between this forum and the others that you folks pointed to me, I've spent the last 3days absorbing all the info I can. I must say that I'm finding my idea a little hard to implement given current battery technologies and such.

However, I have all my questions answered, and thanks Morph for the battery info. I think I can build the BMS I need and use it for all the LiFePO needs, all questions on range and charge answered and especially the regen stuff. I never expected to get a lot back, but there are some great ideas for optimizing return, critical for me = distance between charges.

I just can't avoid going to the heavier (2.5kg) 40 AH cells, but at least I should have no problem keeping the investment up to snuff.

Wiring the battery packs is going to be a little tricky, but I'll be running seperate cabling for a cell monitor (Cell log is nice, but some others have better features), balancing charger and the BMS. I doubt I'll ever lose a cell except to some wierd mechanical failure.

Some of Doctorbass's little experiments are really tempting, but I find 70km/h a little scary (I have hit 60 peddling, and then I hit the car...)

As I build the kit, I'll post pics. Still thinking of going recumbent for the lower wind resistance.. *sigh*

Oh, and I still haven't given up on solar charging, but I think small steps:

1: SLA 26AH (get running, test range, LiFePO should be better numbers)
2: Thundersky LiFePO 20AH pack (use to build/test battery config, BMS, charging)
3. Thundersky LiFePO 40AH pack (the final build)

The bike kit is going rear hub drive for braking/regen, I only use the front brakes as backup for the rears to avoid air time, I'm not sure why I looked on the front hub drive as easier or more portable...

I'm definitely going the Infineon 35W controller with the 9 Continent hub, Cycling Analyst kit. Too many benefits and lots of flexibility as I see it, and I wanna really tune the LVC in the controller - if it hasn't been already...

I'd like to get something so I can measure more accurately the return from the motor though.

In terms of BMS, I'm taking the hobbyist route. I did find some really cool bolt-on packages for the Thundersky cells, but I've never been afraid of a little soldering and testing. That Christmas tree Doctorbass built should scale down nicely to 6S packages. I'll always run two, so the BMS design seems perfect.

The hardest part was finding the cables to wire the batteries so everything could be plug and play - an RC site provided all of that.

I'm still working on water-proofing the BMS... Tricky since airflow is needed for the cooling (fans will be needed)...

If you do decide to go with SLA, I would recommend the B&B EB 20 - 12 AKA the EB 12v20AH . EB stands for "electric bike" so they are specifically made for it. I've read comparisons on SLA's and the EB 20-12 gets 5 AH of usable capacity more than the other regular 12v20AH batteries. In other words, you'd be able to go 5 to 10 miles more on the B&B EB 20-12 than other SLA's.

Yup, exactly what I was going to do - and they went down in price in the last few days. Noticed them today at 10% less than I thought was a good price. Made me rethink the whole SLA first approach. Think I'll buy them first with the necessary cables to make em into a pack ang get the cell monitors as well. Then I'll build out the BMS, attach them to it and then upgrade to the 40 Ah cells.

It's funny, but unless you go really cheap on the SLA's, you can have a 36V 20Ah L1FePO or 36V 26Ah SLA (both with charger) for about the same cost, with significant weight advantages to the LiFePO. Granted, I "upped" the SLA charger to a dual 20A unit, I figured it as necessary compared to the 3.3 h of the L1FePO charging unit. Giving that "step" up saved me about $700 on the overall budget, cutting two weeks off the timeline.

I also managed to find a 110+lb trailer with the hitch I want at the same price as my original spec, so the weight of the 40 Ah setup isn't a problem.

Oh, that's funny. The part number for the SLA you wrote up is exactly the same as the LiFePO units I was going to get ... My bad....

yeah, I meant these if you are going to go with SLA

http://www.powerstream.com/bb/EB20-12.pdf

The criteria I had for SLA was all about Ah to weight. The older style SLA batteries, while cheap, also weigh a ton. I had considered AGM batteries which are SLA, but seem to have several advantages over conventional SLA batteries.

The obvious one is weight - a single 12V 26Ah AGM battery I looked at was 12 lbs compared to the 20+lb "conventional" SLA batteries of the same Ah rating. Second, AGM batteries seem to charge and draw at a higher rate, and leakage becomes less of an issue if the cells crack.

Once I priced everything out - including the charger, I found that the high end SLA's and LiFePO were so close in price that there isn't much of a saving...

The recent price drop of the LiFePO batteries caused me to rethink and I'm buying a 20Ah LiFePO pack and skipping the SLA stage. It just makes sense because I won't have to "tweak" anything, simply upgrade to the 40Ah cells once I have the BMS built and tested on the 20Ah cells.

Good idea. That's what I would do because Lifepo4 can be got for only $100 more. did you see the price of the 36v20AH at elitepowersolutions.com? $312 for 36v20AH. No BMS but for that price, it doesn't really matter because it's so cheap, it's still a great buy because even without a BMS, it will still last 3 or 4x longer than SLA. You could essentially just use 50 - 60 % of it and not worry about a BMS and still get a hell of a lot more usage out of it than a SLA battery.

Yes, I've been watching those prices daily. They dropped last week prompting me to drop the SLA idea. If they drop further, I may just bite the bullet and buy them 2 weeks earlier than I expected to.

I'm not so worried about a lack of BMS right now, riding will be very light and short distances, and the Infineon and Cycle Analyst can help in terms of making sure I don't pull the batteries too low.

Still, I wouldn't want to go with my overall plan without a BMS, and your suggestion of the Cell Monitor is a good first step. HobbyKing sells 3 types of these beasties and they are all very inexpensive. Considering the replacement cost of a cell, I'd say it's a great investment.

Hello fellow Calgary ebike rider.
I thought I was the only one riding ebike in Calgary .
I am typing this from SE 58Ave/11St where I work.
I have bben commuting on my Tidal Force for like 4 years, before I was using Merida.
I strongly advice to get LiFePo battery.
I am riding on LifeBatt/BMI 36V 10 Ah pack made in Taiwan.
My pack had been day and night comparing to my oldNMH battery original on TF.
Original NMH batt lasted only 3 years.
My LFePo doesn't show any signgs of wearing out despite 1 and a half winters and 2 summers
However you must keep in mind than this chemistry losses capacity in cold but not as much as Lead.
I don't know what your budget but I would get E+ ebike made in USA which is improved version of TForce.
Where is made make all of difference.My TF is approaching 15 000km on the clock and is smooth, totally sillent pleasure to ride. Regen is just wondefully well modulated, treasure when your rims get wet. You must have regen on very heavybicycle , for saving brakes, shorthening braking distance.
Anyway if you want to check out my bike please, call
dial extension please.
Miroslaw

I just ordered my kit, I'm like an expectant father waiting for this stuff to come in, but I'm patient enough to wait 'cuz I won't have my LiFePO's for another 2 weeks. Yes, please let's put that to rest. I AM going LiFePO, now let's move on.

It's funny, I looked at the kits sold by Canadian retailers and I saw price tags of like $1900 for a bike and choked. Now after reviewing everything I am going to buy, I know I'm good but it's pretty close to that figure without the bike and frame.

I'm an IT guy, programmer and old hardware hacker (down to being HAM licensed) and mountain biked to/from work a lot when I lived in Victoria (15KM each day), ran 5K at lunch and worked out a lot. I'm itching to get out there now that I've shifted my thinking, an eBike will relieve the boredom on weekends, wondering if anyone's gonna call me to go fishing.

I'm such a tinkerer that I had to understand almost every facet of an eBike before I'd spend any money, and cheap enough to go demonstrated quality versus ease of purchase. I looked for people who *really* knew what they were talking about, and demonstrated an interest in the subjects they investigated and followed their *advice* (if you can call it that.) I've made enough mistakes and will gladly learn from others'.

I'd love to see your bike...

One point, and I think all you folks stress it enough - learn your battery and how to give it your *love* and it will *love* you in return. I don't know why nobody seems to stock battery meters with battery kits - it's always chargers that seem to be included. Go spend the $40 or so, get a cell monitor and single cell charger. After talking to one courier, it seems that this point is overlooked by the masses.

Anyways, pictures later and...

Oh, one thing... I was writing an email last nite (which Justin was very good to answer) and I had an idea...

I'ma go get the USB cables for both the controller and Cycle Analyst for obvious reasons, but then I went one step further adding a netbook, some USB headset (I think I'm gonna hack the Logitech) and a camera (5 megapixel, fast frame rate USB webcam)..

For all of you that post Youtube videos, you are always aimed at the meters which are usually unreadable. I'd love some scenery shots and stuff to give me the visible effect, and since I plan on biking in some beautiful country, I'd love to capture and share it.

So I'm thinking of a USB wireless 4 port hub wired into all this stuff and the netbook receiver in the trailer.

Justin's feedback related to EMF (I suspect from the hub motor and controller) andsuch. I figured high DB gain antennas and proper gear placement might solve some of that.

Total cost + helmet = about $200, hub is about $160 and netbooks are about $500

Anyone else trying such a thing? I'll keep you posted.

PS. Stage 2 includes a wirelss hub, roaming LAN, VOIP server for others in similar gear.

Good advice, hope you took tel number.
I edit my post.
Did you really gave up on the car , that is impressive in Alberta climat.
I had similar plans to yours, always wanted to travel West of Calgary initially to Cochrane.
I think I could do it easly in NORMAL power mode. Tidal Force has NORMAL and Turbo settings.
Calgary is heaven for stealth opportunity chargin.
recepticles all over the place, usually power not turned off for summer.
look at softdrink machines, schools , churches, etc.
I am almost sure there must be some public institution between Calgary and Cochrane.
Electric bike is like addiction for me I never have enough, always look for pretects to go for a ride.
Again few bike can match refinement of TF and E+ bikes and according to at least one owner E
++ is even more efficent than TF.
as a routine I tipically used only 2.5Ah on 9km trip day after day in summer not even on slicker tires and not
pumped even to 40PSI. for comfort.
Do you know if there is eny problem with posting photos on this forum?
Miroslaw

Photos are only a problem if you're not signed in... They work.

Cochrane is only about 26 mi via Hwy 1A, I hadn't planned on recharging before I got there. Of course, I planned on having a 20Ah pack.

I guess I'll have to see when I do my Ghost Lake trip... I'll be marking these spots and maintaining a database of them as I expand from the city limits. For now, I don't have a clue...

Miroslaw, moved the Calgary specific stuff to this thread as it's better in the regional forum.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?623374-Calgary-and-area-Tour-Planning-eBike&referrerid=187309

We should probably call it "Calgary and Area Guerilla Charging" but we'll see how it develops. I'm going to keep this thread for the bike build related discussion.

Yes, I stashed your number....

So, I started with this older model Norco Katmandu I got from a local pawn shop. I found out the front forks were aluminum, and now it seems that the whole bike is. It was nice when I had nothing on it...


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So the first thing was to add "stealth capability" - actually I just wanted fenders and a good cargo rack on the back for batteries and such.

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Then the kit arrived.

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The controller needed modding for regen, so I pulled it apart and thought I'd get a snap of the pads before I started.

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In typical fashion, I had to finish the job as follows:

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And here it is from front to back:
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So the last few days have been endless "tweaking", just trying to be happy with the job I did. I had some issues with the kit which were dealt with easily by emailing the vendor. This is one of the reasons I prefer a supplier in my country.

Just finished with the battery connectors and I've decided to go with LiFePO, the ones Morph recommended, but the 20Ah set that comes with a charger. They disassemble nicely and I was going to re-form those into 2 * 6 cell packs. The RC chargers and balancers I was looking at (with seperate DC 18V input) will do 4 packs at a time, and there is going to be some minor connector hacking involved.

This leaves the BMS and then an upgrade to 6 cell 40Ah packs * 2 = hooked in series. I'm waiting on this with baited breath really. There's 3 systems I've identified for ThunderSky cells, but I'm waiting for one I know is almost ready.

Outstanding work:

1. Install waterproof on/off switch on battery cable.
2. Clean up the rack install and install the spacer washer (I have yet to order) for my 7 speed freewheel.
3. Connect the USB cable in the CA (no rush there)
4. Mod the controller for programming. (many questions on that...)

That last point is going to be a little tough, but not impossible. I hadda upgrade my soldering kit and get a bit of heat-shrink tubing, but so far it's been a constant state of engineer, build, tweak, sit and wait for the next load of stuff to arrive.

Had some extra cash and bougth the panniers, finished all the handlebar mounting and all I have left is to build the battery and power it up. *Tweak* *Twitch*
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The batteries arrived... Before they did, I upgraded the 1.4 slicks I had to 1.95.. They fill the fenders well, hope I don't have to ride in mud.

Of course, the regular camera is down, but I ripped the packs apart, added a waterproof fuse to one and a SPST pigtail switch on the positive lead near the main connector. Made it handy since I used the fuse for the missing hardware from the original battery. They interlocked easily and I had some velcro straps I recycled. Packs are:

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The charger was a bit of a hassle, but once I figured it out and learned brown was negative (and of course I had to replace the fuse...)
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I also padded the bottom of the panniers with some high density packing foam (recycled) and here it is. (Yes, I double checked each connection, solder joint, voltage and so on - carefully when I did this, time well spent.

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This is the first charge, so I'm watching the batteries like a hawk... All I need now is the spacer I forgot to order and a helmet. *twitch*

The charger worked a lot better after I realized I hadn't tightened the battery connectors down on one bank (noticed on the first test.) After about 2 hours, it finally registered as charged, so I tested the cells. They were all over the place - from 3.55v to 3.43v. Packed it up, went to bed and vowed to deal with it tomorrow.

The only solution would be to adjust the charger to shut off at a higher voltage (not easily doable in a day, no adjustments and I would have to hack it without schematics), or I find a 3.7v single cell charger. Seems Canon and Sony cameras and some cell phones use Lithium-Ion batteries and after 4 hours of searching on the net, I went to the dollar store half a block from work. I found a cell phone charger, 3.7v, 355ma and got some alligator clips from a local Radio Shack.

I re-tested the cells when I got home and now they all were within .01v of 3.43v.... Strange, but I want those cells topped off (the RC balancing charger is on the next purchase, along with all the hardware I need - budget) I figure (after testing everything a few times) it'll take about 105 minutes to top off each cell. I have 12 cells... *sigh*

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Looking good. I've got 30 cycles on mine and still going strong. These can even handle a 10 amp charge if you want. That's what I use sometimes when it's half depleted. If you can manage it, I think the cells are better off inside the silver plastic case that they came in. The reason being that Thundersky has said that it's a good idea to keep the cells clamped and the casing would provide the clamping together to keep them from bloating. I know one person who is also not using the case and has never used the case for a year so it might be okay but I left mine in the silver case just to be sure. They also sell those clamps somewhere if you want to get them. Mine have never gotten even warm to the touch so you may never have a problem.

EDIT: oh are those velcro straps around the cells? If they are tight enough, that might work also.

Have you seen the Trakker watt meter? I think it's a better value than the cycle analyst. I think it's only about $50 - $60.

http://www.plus2city.com/plus2rchobby/new_shop/dual-meter-voltage-watt-meter-checker-balancer-p-865.html?osCsid=iaktisqge1agonkj1lhafqh362

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Hey, be careful with those cell phone chargers. Someone destroyed his lifepo4 with one of those. The reason being, a lot of times those aren't really chargers but just power supplies and the cut off voltage chip is inside the cell phone so it just supplies current to the cell phone and if you leave it on the battery it'll just keep supplying current until the battery is destroyed. I wouldn't use one of those unless you at least monitor the first time and make sure it shuts off.

I haven't balanced my cells for about 4 or 5 uses so it's okay if you go a few times or several times without balancing them.

There is a 3.2v 2amp lifepo4 charger at all-battery.com. That's what I use to top mine off. Here is the one I use. I bought 3 of these.
http://www.all-battery.com/TenergyLiFePO4BatteryCharger01300.aspx

I use a 12v black and decker for my main charger. Not sure if you knew that or not. I charge 4 cells at a time. I can get them all charged in 3 hours or less. Not bad.

I was more than paranoid using the cell phone charger, first off, I tested the voltage output and realized that the draw from charging the batteries would affect the output voltage of the charger over time. I found that it would take about 5 minutes to add .01v charge, but as the cell voltage increased, this time period decreased. When the cells hit 3.70v, one minute later it was at 3.73v... It'd be nice to have an audible alarm when the cells hit the "sweet spot" (I'm aiming for 3.8v, but the manual that came with them says 4.2 is "fully charged")

I would not let it sit connected and plugged in without supervision - that would be a recipe for disaster as my initial tests showed the charger putting out about 6.34v without a load. It'd cook the cells for sure... No overnight charging for me with that one.

I am curious tho, the 3.2v charger you use, will that charge the cells up to 3.8v or so? I was not sure about those single cell chargers, hence the cell phone 3.7v route.

I had decided on the Cycle Analyst for several other features than measuring power usage, the Low Voltage Cutoff is nice, but there's just so many other features in that little beastie and it integrates well with the Infineon controller... As part of the package, it was hard to refuse.

For those not buying a package like mine, certainly there are alternatives... The Cycle Analyst is now at version 2.2 and there is a new manual posted on the manufacturer's site.

EDIT: oh are those velcro straps around the cells? If they are tight enough, that might work also.

Yes, we had some extras left over from a server room buildout and it turns out they were useful after all. They are really tight and I used the cushion from the bottom of the silver package, cut it in half and placed it under the straps on the ends to add some cushion. They hold the cells together quite well. I was tempted to add the aluminum to the sides to help dissipate heat and add rigidity, and may still.

I've also added straps across the top of the panniers to provide a temporary solution should the clips break or something.

unless you run the batteries to almost 90 - 100 % drained, I doubt you'll see any heat from these batteries. Mine have never even gotten warm. It's amazing. The 3.2v charger takes the battery up to 3.65v and stops. I don't think it's a good idea to charge them to 4.2v. I've never had mine over about 3.76v . They say that the batteries last longer if you only charge them to 3.65v.

There was a lot of discussion on other threads in the Endless-Sphere forums on that, and I had initially selected 3.85 as my target voltage, but on retrospection, 3.65v seems to be the sweet spot.

With the power curve on the battery, I had figured 2.8v as the low end. The Cycle Analyst has a low voltage cutoff to prevent overdraining of the batteries, but it's not granular to the cell level, so I figured on 2.8*12= 33.6v, and this is where having balanced cells comes in handy. I had wanted to go to 2.7v per cell, but the risk that one would hit 2.6v while another stays at 2.8v to compensate is too high.

Oh, the cell I charged to 3.73v last nite was 3.70 when I wnet to sleep and after the day, it was down to 3.55, I took it to 3.66 and am finally working on the second.

Your single cell chargers are sounding better all the time, but when I can afford to get them, I would be able to buy the other charger I ws looking at:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10327&Product_Name=HobbyKing_Quattro_4x6S_Lithium_Polymer_Multi_Charger_