Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - I did not strip the the lockring threads.

The lockring held. The HUB broke.

137239

I am now mentally filing track thread and lockrings under the category for "worst mechanical interfaces."

Does it work out well to get a tommicog and respace a front disc hub out to rear width?

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Charge_Shaka_Rear_Hub/5360044293/

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Charge_Grater_Sprocket/5360044294/

Ouch. As for the front disc hub, I've only heard good things about that method.

I'm running a front disc hub with a home drilled cog. Chain-line came out at 46mm for a 130mm spaced hub and no dish, which suits me as I'm using the outer ring of a road double. My biggest concern is that a front hub uses smaller bearings than a rear, but I haven't put enough time on the bike to see how the bearings are going hold up.

Have you seen Velosolo? 50-60 UKP so it's more affordable than Philwood bolt-on cog/hub setup. I would eventually have to lace one for myself, but people use this cog-lockring setup fine, you know?

Another option is the Miche system, which uses splined cogs that slide onto a carrier that is permanently screwed onto the hub. A lockring is used to keep the cogs from sliding off, but it takes no load and is tightened lightly. Another advantage of this system is that cog changes are quick and easy.

http://www.worldclasscycles.com/miche_carrier_on_hub.htm

The lockring held. The HUB broke.

137239

Does it work out well to get a tommicog and respace a front disc hub out to rear width?

What hub is that so I can avoid it?

The chances of this happening again are remote even with a cheap formula or novatec hub. I would just replace it with another track hub.
The tomicog/disc front hub interface is indestructible and great for offroading, but excessive for road riding. I built a tomicog wheel with a Surly front disc hub. The Surly front hubs use the same bearings as the rear, so converting the hub involves changing only the axle and nuts. WIth any disc hub conversion, getting the chainline right is a bit more challenging than a normal track hub and you may end up with a slightly dished wheel. The excessive amount of axle spacers and inboard position of the NDS bearing could compromise bearing life. Also keep in mind that front hubs were not designed to be rear hubs so in the event of failure you are **** out of luck in terms of warrantee replacement.

Another option is the Miche system.[/URL]

I also use the Miche system for a track bike that mostly sees road use. I have been quite pleased with it, both in terms of ease of cog change and cost effectiveness.

I know that this kind of failure is unlikely and stripping the threads is also unlikely with proper installation and tons of people use threaded hubs with no problem. It's more the principle of the thing. The threaded cog/reverse threaded lockring interface would have never existed if there were competent mechanical engineers involved. I feel the same about cottered cranksets, threaded headsets that rely on keyed washers, etc.

I can get a perfectly ok front disc hub out of the bin at recycled cycles for $8 and a velosolo or tomicog, and borrow the axle and spacers from this hub, so it actually works out to be of the cheapest options. Hilly around here so I don't anticipate wanting less than 16t anyway.

The lockring held. The HUB broke.

137239

I am now mentally filing track thread and lockrings under the category for "worst mechanical interfaces."

Does it work out well to get a tommicog and respace a front disc hub out to rear width?

Skidz?

Doesn't look like a JRA event in any case.

Another option is the Miche system, which uses splined cogs that slide onto a carrier that is permanently screwed onto the hub. A lockring is used to keep the cogs from sliding off, but it takes no load and is tightened lightly. Another advantage of this system is that cog changes are quick and easy.

http://www.worldclasscycles.com/miche_carrier_on_hub.htm

That looks awesome.

I stripped a novatec hub in about 1.5 months of riding. Flipped to the other side and stripped that in 3 weeks. now I have an origina8 stamped forumla style hub. What can I expect in the durabilty department from my new hub?

Im not getting the miche splined cog thing. I could see it being great if the hub had splined and the cog mounted onto the hub directly but it uses a "cog carrier" that screws onto the hub the same way that a threaded cog would screw on. Would this unscrew when skid stopping the same as aregular cog and put pressure on the lock ring? Im thinking since its more parts it would actually be weaker that a solid cog threaded onto the hub. Im probably missing something. Can someone please explain how this system is an improvement on the standard threaded cog/hub?

I stripped a novatec hub in about 1.5 months of riding. Flipped to the other side and stripped that in 3 weeks. now I have an origina8 stamped forumla style hub. What can I expect in the durabilty department from my new hub?

Im not getting the miche splined cog thing. I could see it being great if the hub had splined and the cog mounted onto the hub directly but it uses a "cog carrier" that screws onto the hub the same way that a threaded cog would screw on. Would this unscrew when skid stopping the same as aregular cog and put pressure on the lock ring? Im thinking since its more parts it would actually be weaker that a solid cog threaded onto the hub. Im probably missing something. Can someone please explain how this system is an improvement on the standard threaded cog/hub?

Yes, you are missing how to properly install a cog and lockring.

I don't know how, but I installed my first cog wrong. Now I always use rotafix and oodles of grease. No problems on my Formula.

just goes to show how you don't want Italian or French engineers designing your mechanical bits :innocent:

mihlbach is right. Awww ... I was actually looking forward to the Velosolo stuff. I can service that hub 100% with my eyes closed and all.


I also use the Miche system for a track bike that mostly sees road use. I have been quite pleased with it, both in terms of ease of cog change and cost effectiveness.

Wow wait, the carrier is screw-on right? That's same as any cog ain't it? I wouldn't do it if you are stripping the thread with normal cogs. ... a better hub is probably a better solution. ... But that doesn't mean it ain't cool. I would love one, but it's an import here. :(

Wow wait, the carrier is screw-on right? That's same as any cog ain't it? I wouldn't do it if you are stripping the thread with normal cogs. ... a better hub is probably a better solution. ... But that doesn't mean it ain't cool. I would love one, but it's an import here. :(

Unlike a screw-on cog that you may want to remove in the future to either change gearing or replace a worn cog, the Miche carrier is meant to remain permanently attached to the hub. Therefore, I installed mine with Loctite red threadlocker, tightened it with a cog tool in a large bench vise and let it cure overnight before riding. The carrier has now become an integral part of the hub and will never come off. The only disadvantage is that the hub will now only work with the Miche cogs, but they are relatively inexpensive and readily available. The nice thing about this system is that the lockring only needs to be tightened lightly, so it is easily removed and there is no chance of stripping its threads or the hub lockring threads. Oh, and one more advantage is that the Miche cogs are symmetric, so you can reverse them when they get worn on one side, thus doubling their normal life.

What if you don't use Loctite? Then the only advantage is easy cog changing right?

What if you don't use Loctite? Then the only advantage is easy cog changing right?

I'm not sure that the Loctite is really necessary if you do a good job of tightening the carrier, I just wanted to be 100% sure. The lockring would still do its job if the carrier happened get loose and start to unscrew, but that is not good for either the hub or lockring threads. In any event, every time you install and remove a normal screw-on cog you are wearing out the hub threads, whereas with this system there is no wear no matter how often you change a cog.

ive never considered the miche system. is there any play? does play ever develop?

what tool would one use to initially tighten the carrier -- or do you simply tighten by hand? would you say this is a system that one would never have to use a chainwhip? I hate chainwhips.

how are the cogs? on par with eai, surly, da, etc?

People have been using the threaded cog and reverse locking since the very earliest days... old coaster hubs also use the same system and are constantly subjected to back pedaling to engage the brake.

99% of the failures are due to improper installation.

In this case the hub was probably a POS and bet it falls under the category of people trying to make a part as light as possible to save a few grams of weight.

ive never considered the miche system. is there any play? does play ever develop?

what tool would one use to initially tighten the carrier -- or do you simply tighten by hand? would you say this is a system that one would never have to use a chainwhip? I hate chainwhips.

how are the cogs? on par with eai, surly, da, etc?

The system sucks ass. Play eventually develops between the carrier and the cog, producing noise. Which means replacing the carrier and cog when that happens. Seen it enough times to tell you that it's only useful under specific situations where cog changes need to be very quick.

People have been using the threaded cog and reverse locking since the very earliest days... old coaster hubs also use the same system and are constantly subjected to back pedaling to engage the brake.

99% of the failures are due to improper installation.

In this case the hub was probably a POS and bet it falls under the category of people trying to make a part as light as possible to save a few grams of weight.

I'm not sure how old a coaster hub you're referencing, but the ones I've taken apart cover a reasonably broad time range, and have all had some sort of splined cog.
I basically agree that most failures of the reverse-thread lockring system are due to improper installation, but I'd call that a weakness of the design: it is too easy to install it improperly.

but I'd call that a weakness of the design: it is too easy to install it improperly.

Being to easy to mess up is not a flaw of the design, its a flaw of the user. I installed my first cog/lockring on improperly because I thought it was simple and that I didn't need instructions, I was wrong that was my error, I stripped the threads, took the two seconds it takes to learn to do it right and have never had another problem

The system sucks ass. Play eventually develops between the carrier and the cog, producing noise. Which means replacing the carrier and cog when that happens. Seen it enough times to tell you that it's only useful under specific situations where cog changes need to be very quick.

I have not experienced problems with play developing, however, I use this system on the track where I am not constantly back pedalling and reversing the loading on the splines. As you said, the main advantage for someone like myself is that on the track I can make quick gear changes during workouts or races.

The system sucks ass. Play eventually develops between the carrier and the cog, producing noise. Which means replacing the carrier and cog when that happens. Seen it enough times to tell you that it's only useful under specific situations where cog changes need to be very quick.

do you have an opinion of phil wood's iso hub system?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3459/3913470024_27612173f6.jpg

I'm not sure how old a coaster hub you're referencing, but the ones I've taken apart cover a reasonably broad time range, and have all had some sort of splined cog.
I basically agree that most failures of the reverse-thread lockring system are due to improper installation, but I'd call that a weakness of the design: it is too easy to install it improperly.

Many English made coaster hubs use a threaded interface as do some early Canadian models... oddly enough... I have never stripped a hub.

do you have an opinion of phil wood's iso hub system?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3459/3913470024_27612173f6.jpg

Another proprietary cog system like the level - for me no thanks. I don't change my cogs often nor do I race track. I use my wheels on the road and for commuting. I've never had a problem with the traditional thread on lockring/cog so anything else is just a solution looking for a problem - for me

Being to easy to mess up is not a flaw of the design, its a flaw of the user.

Nope.

You're confusing good engineering (the implementation) with design (the overall plan to solve all facets of a given problem, including the usability).

Factory machines in the early industrial revolution were damn sturdy and fast, but took people's hands and feet off all the time. Good engineering, poor design.

Guys, we still have very few (if any) details about the failure of the original hub.

What hub is it?
What were you doing when it broke? Sprinting, climbing, skidding, riding, tricks, riding off a curb?
Did you have a lockring on it? Aluminum or steel?

Guys, we still have very few (if any) details about the failure of the original hub.

What hub is it?
What were you doing when it broke? Sprinting, climbing, skidding, riding, tricks, riding off a curb?
Did you have a lockring on it? Aluminum or steel?

who cares, the hub sucks - picture proves it. Next thread

who cares, the hub sucks - picture proves it. Next thread

Hahaha, thanks for so many of your opinions.

But I'd like to know what brand of hub it was and the circumstances of the failure.

Just because you are a malcontent that thinks everything that you don't like "sucks ass" doesn't mean we should all feel that way.

You are more than welcome to proceed to the "next thread" and not return here. No one held your lil hand and made you click this one.

Your guess is as good as mine what brand of hub. Fixed/free, M10x1 axle, cup and cone bearings, no distinguishing marks. Came laced to a Mavic CXP22 with DT Swiss spokes if that helps.
What was I doing? Resisting, coming up to a stop sign. Some skidding/skip-stops earlier that ride.
Formula cog, rotafixed.
Dura-ace lockring.
46/18.
rider weighs 170#

Unlike a screw-on cog that you may want to remove in the future to either change gearing or replace a worn cog, the Miche carrier is meant to remain permanently attached to the hub. Therefore, I installed mine with Loctite red threadlocker, tightened it with a cog tool in a large bench vise and let it cure overnight before riding. The carrier has now become an integral part of the hub and will never come off. The only disadvantage is that the hub will now only work with the Miche cogs, but they are relatively inexpensive and readily available. The nice thing about this system is that the lockring only needs to be tightened lightly, so it is easily removed and there is no chance of stripping its threads or the hub lockring threads. Oh, and one more advantage is that the Miche cogs are symmetric, so you can reverse them when they get worn on one side, thus doubling their normal life.

That's an exceptional piece of information. ... Doh! I just bought a chainring. Darn it; it won't work. I think they don't make cog bigger than 18T. :(

The system sucks ass. Play eventually develops between the carrier and the cog, producing noise. Which means replacing the carrier and cog when that happens. Seen it enough times to tell you that it's only useful under specific situations where cog changes need to be very quick.

I ride on the street with Miche cogs and carrier. I have been using this system for more than 3 years now. I have never experienced any play, noise, or loosening of the lockring...none whatsoever. I change cogs exactly twice a year, a higher gear in summer and a lower gear in winter.

Your guess is as good as mine what brand of hub. Fixed/free, M10x1 axle, cup and cone bearings, no distinguishing marks. Came laced to a Mavic CXP22 with DT Swiss spokes if that helps.
What was I doing? Resisting, coming up to a stop sign. Some skidding/skip-stops earlier that ride.
Formula cog, rotafixed.
Dura-ace lockring.
46/18.
rider weighs 170#

Sounds like those generic no-name, loose-ball track hubs that came stock on the cheap version of the Fuji Track some years ago.

I ride on the street with Miche cogs and carrier. I have been using this system for more than 3 years now. I have never experienced any play, noise, or loosening of the lockring...none whatsoever. I change cogs exactly twice a year, a higher gear in summer and a lower gear in winter.

Why even bother with the system in that case?

I stripped a novatec hub in about 1.5 months of riding. Flipped to the other side and stripped that in 3 weeks. now I have an origina8 stamped forumla style hub. What can I expect in the durabilty department from my new hub?
Keep your eyes open for an old steel fixed gear hub, e.g.:
http://www.velobase.com/CompImages/Hubs/367AD803-B027-4EDC-B92C-4D240D4EE9CB.jpeg

Why even bother with the system in that case?

No particular reason. Its just what I have on there and it works. Why bother changing? I have other bikes with more traditional threaded cogs. Those work fine too.

Keep your eyes open for an old steel fixed gear hub, e.g.:
http://www.velobase.com/CompImages/Hubs/367AD803-B027-4EDC-B92C-4D240D4EE9CB.jpeg

what's that peg in the center for? do you actually still these float around from time to time?

what's that peg in the center for?

My guess is it's a removable oil port cap.

Keep your eyes open for an old steel fixed gear hub, e.g.:
http://www.velobase.com/CompImages/Hubs/367AD803-B027-4EDC-B92C-4D240D4EE9CB.jpeg

Those are about as solid as a hub gets and if I had a good supply of those they'd be my first choice for anything but serious racing applications... I know a machinist that is capable of fabricating these but they would run about $250.00 each and could also get built with cartridge bearings.

Some hubs have a spring clip as a seal... this is the rear hub on my '55 Lenton and is one of the smoothest hubs I have ever had the joy to use.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/lentonhub.JPG

Being to easy to mess up is not a flaw of the design, its a flaw of the user. I installed my first cog/lockring on improperly because I thought it was simple and that I didn't need instructions, I was wrong that was my error, I stripped the threads, took the two seconds it takes to learn to do it right and have never had another problem

You may have screwed up, sure. But being easy to screw up is absolutely a design flaw. If it can be screwed up it will be screwed up, so designs should make it hard to screw up. If it is easy to screw up, it will get screwed up a lot. Sure, it would be fine if people didn't screw it up. But they will, in direct proportion to how easy it is.

So when people go looking for a better design than the reverse-lockring, the fact that failures happen mostly due to screw-ups is useful information in considering other options, but not a reason not to consider other options. If something else is just as good when both are done right, and it's easier to do the new thing right, the new thing is better.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have had reverse-lockrings on several bikes, and never had a failure. My complaint with the system is that I'd like to be able to change cogs with the minimal light-weight tools I carry with me (i.e. no chain whip).

Another proprietary cog system like the level - for me no thanks. I don't change my cogs often nor do I race track. I use my wheels on the road and for commuting. I've never had a problem with the traditional thread on lockring/cog so anything else is just a solution looking for a problem - for meProprietary? That's ISO standard 6-bolt. Pretty much about as standard as you can get.

I'm considering converting a front disc hub to fixed rear. Is Tomicog still the only company that produces the ISO mounting cogs? I know I can drill any ol' cog, but it would be nice to have ready made precisely machined piece instead of having to go to a machine shop.

I'm considering converting a front disc hub to fixed rear. Is Tomicog still the only company that produces the ISO mounting cogs? I know I can drill any ol' cog, but it would be nice to have ready made precisely machined piece instead of having to go to a machine shop.

Either tomicog or here....http://www.velosolo.co.uk/

I have personal experience with tomicogs and they are great. I've heard good things about the velosolo cogs, but no personal experience. Buy whichever is cheaper and you can't go wrong. Sometimes the velosolo cogs are more expensive or cheaper depending on the exchange rate.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have had reverse-lockrings on several bikes, and never had a failure. My complaint with the system is that I'd like to be able to change cogs with the minimal light-weight tools I carry with me (i.e. no chain whip).

You need a mini lock ring tool and have to know how to rotafix a cog.

My complaint with the system is that I'd like to be able to change cogs with the minimal light-weight tools I carry with me (i.e. no chain whip).

Hey, man. If you need to change gears when out on the road you can use a flip-flop hub. Then there's always a derailleur.

He did not buy that wheel from me.

http://www.velobase.com/CompImages/Hubs/367AD803-B027-4EDC-B92C-4D240D4EE9CB.jpeg
what's that peg in the center for? do you actually still these float around from time to time?
That's an oil port. Hubs like that turn up on eBay fairly often.