Bicycle Mechanics - help! new 12-36 cassette install, freehub binds

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to replace a 9 speed, xtr m970 11-34 cassette on a DT Swiss hub with the new shimano 12-36 cassette. With the 11-34 cassette, all is well, with the 12-36 cassette on there, the freehub doesn't spin when I clamp it in the dropouts. Put the 11-34 back on, all is well again.

I'm fairly certain the new cassette is seated fully on the driveshell, and I've tried both loosening and tightening the new 12t lockring.

Anyone have any ideas for me? Thanks!!! :-)

Was the cassette intended for use with a washer on the spoke side?

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to replace a 9 speed, xtr m970 11-34 cassette on a DT Swiss hub with the new shimano 12-36 cassette. With the 11-34 cassette, all is well, with the 12-36 cassette on there, the freehub doesn't spin when I clamp it in the dropouts. Put the 11-34 back on, all is well again.

I'm fairly certain the new cassette is seated fully on the driveshell, and I've tried both loosening and tightening the new 12t lockring.

Anyone have any ideas for me? Thanks!!! :-)

Does the freehub spin when it's not on the bike? If that is the case, is the cassette lockring rubbing on the dropout?

Was the cassette intended for use with a washer on the spoke side?

I don't think so... it didn't come with one....

Does the freehub spin when it's not on the bike? If that is the case, is the cassette lockring rubbing on the dropout?

it does spin when not on the bike, however no, nothing is rubbing on the dropout, there's at least a few mm of clearance between the lockring and the dropout face.

Even just barely tightening the wheel in the dropout produces a very noticeble stick in the freehub. I quadruple checked, at no point does the lockring contact the dropout, there's like 5mm of clearance...

Even just barely tightening the wheel in the dropout produces a very noticeble stick in the freehub. I quadruple checked, at no point does the lockring contact the dropout, there's like 5mm of clearance...

This is going to sound ******** - is the new cassette 9 speed?

This is going to sound ******** - is the new cassette 9 speed?

Lol I hope so... Lets see... Yep, both cassettes are 9 speed :) I've used this 12-36t cassette before, just not on this wheelset.

Tried the 11t cog and lockring from the xtr cassette on the 12-36... doesn't change the issue.

Even just barely tightening the wheel in the dropout produces a very noticeble stick in the freehub. I quadruple checked, at no point does the lockring contact the dropout, there's like 5mm of clearance...

And the 12-36 cassette spins freely off the bike while on the hub? Is there something compressing that's pushing the cogs into the spokes?

Definitely something very, very strange going on here...

By any chance do you have any fender or rack bolts that could be dragging on the lockring?

We are all guessing. Take some close up pictures of the two set ups.

check if the rivets on the 12-36 cassette are rubbing on the spokes

The new 12-36 cassettes were introduced for 29" mountain bikes because of the big wheels' affect on gear inches. We have several new 29er mountain bikes in our shop that are equipped with the new 12-36 cassettes, but I've not yet removed one or installed one, so I don't know if you can put one on a standard freehub body or not. The specs say these cassettes require a special freehub body to use them, because of the extra torque they generate.

EDIT: reading some info in one of our catalogs, the FH-M629 is the hub that Shimano has introduced for these 12-36 cassettes.

Well i'm out of ideas without actually seeing the wheel myself.

Here's a copy and paste from the QBP catalog regarding the Shimano 12-36 nine speed cassette. Interestingly, it implies that the cassette will fit on a conventional 9-speed Shimano compatible hub, but that perhaps the freehub won't hold up to the extra torque:

"Shimano HG61 9-Speed Cassettes.

FW6005

12-36t 29'er-specific cassettes must be used with either M529 (6-bolt) or M629 (centerlock) hubs, which are designed and manufactured specifically to withstand the extra torque load exerted by the 36t low gear

Use of the 12-36t cassettes with other hubs may result in hub-failure and may void warranty coverage"

Here's a copy and paste from the QBP catalog regarding the Shimano 12-36 nine speed cassette. Interestingly, it implies that the cassette will fit on a conventional 9-speed Shimano compatible hub, but that perhaps the freehub won't hold up to the extra torque:

"Shimano HG61 9-Speed Cassettes.

FW6005

12-36t 29'er-specific cassettes must be used with either M529 (6-bolt) or M629 (centerlock) hubs, which are designed and manufactured specifically to withstand the extra torque load exerted by the 36t low gear

Use of the 12-36t cassettes with other hubs may result in hub-failure and may void warranty coverage"

Sounds like a gradual failure issue not just a wont work period
+1 for pictures

Sounds like a gradual failure issue not just a wont work period
+1 for pictures

Wow! thanks for all of the help and questions. I gave up late last night. I'm taking the wheel over to a friend's shop right now, hopefully between the two of us we can figure it out.

Unless I'm hallucinating, nothing except the hub driveshell and the chain is touching the cassette. I'll post some pictures (or the hopefully, the solution) when I get back.

Success! The lips of the three pins which hold the cassette together were touching the underside lip of the hubshell. A few seconds with the grinder and all is well! Thanks everyone!

Sounds like a gradual failure issue .....

If the freehub fails due to too much torque, I doubt it will be "gradual." More like instantly. My question is, honestly, how much of a concern is this. I hadn't really thought about it until this thread....Obviously, Shimano is trying to push their hubs, but........Personally, I've got a plenty-low granny gear with the 11-34 on my 29er-

If the freehub fails due to too much torque, I doubt it will be "gradual." More like instantly. My question is, honestly, how much of a concern is this. I hadn't really thought about it until this thread....Obviously, Shimano is trying to push their hubs, but........Personally, I've got a plenty-low granny gear with the 11-34 on my 29er-

Prehaps I used the wrong word, I was more trying to say, I assume that would not cause it to lockup instantly when on the bike, rather fail during use.

Success! The lips of the three pins which hold the cassette together were touching the underside lip of the hubshell. A few seconds with the grinder and all is well! Thanks everyone!

Those "pins" (they're actually threaded bolts) can be removed and thrown away. They don't do anything useful except keep the cogs together when you're putting them on the hub.

Those "pins" (they're actually threaded bolts) can be removed and thrown away. They don't do anything useful except keep the cogs together when you're putting them on the hub.

Really? There wasn't a head on either end of them... how do you remove them?

Really? There wasn't a head on either end of them... how do you remove them?

Think about it

If the freehub fails due to too much torque, I doubt it will be "gradual." More like instantly. My question is, honestly, how much of a concern is this. I hadn't really thought about it until this thread....Obviously, Shimano is trying to push their hubs, but........Personally, I've got a plenty-low granny gear with the 11-34 on my 29er-

The 36 brings the gearing in line with 26 inch wheeled bikes and ISO standards deemed that a stronger hub assembly was required to handle the extra torque load.

The 36 brings the gearing in line with 26 inch wheeled bikes and ISO standards deemed that a stronger hub assembly was required to handle the extra torque load.

I'm aware of the first part of your sentence, I said so in post 14. As for the part about ISO standards, where did you get that info? Obviously, there's something to it, but I think there have been 36t cogs out there, maybe not in big numbers, but in existence for a lot of years.

Those "pins" (they're actually threaded bolts) can be removed and thrown away. They don't do anything useful except keep the cogs together when you're putting them on the hub.

While my SRAM cassettes have had a single threaded bolt holding the cassette together, the Shimano (and store branded) cassettes have all been riveted together. I just drill them out when I want a custom geared cassette.

The 36 brings the gearing in line with 26 inch wheeled bikes and ISO standards deemed that a stronger hub assembly was required to handle the extra torque load.

So what of all those 26" wheeled bikes out there with 22x34 low gear combos? If this 36 t cassette brings a 2-9er's gearing in line them, then how is it that they don't also need the stronger hub?

So what of all those 26" wheeled bikes out there with 22x34 low gear combos? If this 36 t cassette brings a 2-9er's gearing in line them, then how is it that they don't also need the stronger hub?

Think of it like leverage. Pulling on that 36t cog (with the chain) gives more leverage than pulling on a 34t cog, therefore putting the hub under more stress.

Really? There wasn't a head on either end of them... how do you remove them?

What I've seen is either an external head bolt (about 3mm) or an "Allen" head bolt (about 2mm). Maybe they're just riveting them together now, but nevertheless: they're not needed. Take 'em out and lighten your bike a bit.

Think of it like leverage. Pulling on that 36t cog (with the chain) gives more leverage than pulling on a 34t cog, therefore putting the hub under more stress.

Yeah, leverage. However, the Mountain Tamer Quad guys have been using "chainrings" down to 16 teeth for ages, and they don't say anything about beefing up the hub: http://abundantadventures.com/quads.html

FWIW: the old Suntour AG freewheel had a 38-tooth large cog. This is probably the largest cog ever commercially available:

http://img.iwascoding.com/1/2010/02/05/C57381D342334D96872FC561BCF889E9.jpg

Think of it like leverage. Pulling on that 36t cog (with the chain) gives more leverage than pulling on a 34t cog, therefore putting the hub under more stress.

Plus now you have the added stress of the longer effective lever arm of the larger diameter wheel. Think of having a pair of bolt cutters with one long and one short arm compered with a pair of long arms, you'll get a lot more total leverage with two long arms.

FWIW: the old Suntour AG freewheel had a 38-tooth large cog. This is probably the largest cog ever commercially available:

I think I've seen one of those being used with a Huret Duopar rear derailleur.

Think about it

lol...