Living Car Free - Some People Might Avoid Public Transit Because Of Security Concerns

Now, if you want to attract more people onto buses & trains, you better start dealing with the likely (or even unlikely) problems a group of unsocialized-to-mass-transit people bring aboard. Add to this mix, the junk people bring along with them (i.e. baby strollers & baby diapers/nappies bags, groceries, recyclable (cans & the like) even. yes including bikes) and you have a recipe for possible disaster. Do mix in liberally the F*** You attitude of many people have now along with the problems of job loss, the bad economy, marital strife, and the like with the previous list. Now that is a powder keg if I ever saw one. Ask yourselves why people abandoned mass transit in the first place-I want to come and go when I want to, he/she smells bad, etc.. Then you begin to get the picture that the link below illustrates so well:

Videos Of The Incident:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Oakland+AC+Transit+bus+Beating&search_type=&aq=f (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Oakland+AC+Transit+bus+Beating&search_type=&aq=f)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/slideshow?id=9888650 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/slideshow?id=9888650)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/punches-fly-san-fran-bus-8787245

http://abcnews.go.com/US/public-bus-beatings-make-californians-wary-mass-transit/story?id=9890565 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/public-bus-beatings-make-californians-wary-mass-transit/story?id=9890565)

"On his blog at SFGate.com, Zennie62 wrote: "What does this AC Transit Bus Fight prove? Well, it proves why cars and taxi cabs are a more desirable form of transportation than AC Transit buses in Oakland...."
(insert your own public transit company here and begin to see what I mean).

I remember being afraid of public transit as a boy. It carried over into young adulthood. I can't recall who instilled in me that such transportation was not safe when I was young. As a teen I did experience some really scummy people on public buses. Overall it isn't that bad for me. The neighborhoods one must travel through really make a big difference in the types of characters on mass transit systems.

In 50 years of riding buses, I've never seen any incidents of violence. I have rarely witnessed near violence such as name-calling and verbal threats and intimidation. Any place where people congregate is going to attract riff-raff, of course.

My bus company posts security guards on some buses--mosly the ones that serve high schools. I believe this is more to enforce rules of conduct than to prevent actual violent crimes.

People should try to understand that the crime rate is much lower than it was 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. If they had bad experiences in the past it might be a little better now. IMO, the worst "security" threat on public transit is from the flu, colds and other communicable diseases.

I remember being afraid of public transit as a boy. It carried over into young adulthood. I can't recall who instilled in me that such transportation was not safe when I was young. As a teen I did experience some really scummy people on public buses. Overall it isn't that bad for me. The neighborhoods one must travel through really make a big difference in the types of characters on mass transit systems.



In 50 years of riding buses, I've never seen any incidents of violence. I have rarely witnessed near violence such as name-calling and verbal threats and intimidation. Any place where people congregate is going to attract riff-raff, of course.

My bus company posts security guards on some buses--mosly the ones that serve high schools. I believe this is more to enforce rules of conduct than to prevent actual violent crimes.

People should try to understand that the crime rate is much lower than it was 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. If they had bad experiences in the past it might be a little better now. IMO, the worst "security" threat on public transit is from the flu, colds and other communicable diseases.

To be fair, I noticed problems in mass transit in the central city of Los Angeles and surrounding older suburb areas (buses/trains heading to/from downtown). I have never had a problem myself when I took the lower density neighborhood lines. I think it is the "sardine effect" of cramming many bodies in a too limiting space plus their belongings. Plus lack of proper socialization to using any sort of public place, not just public transit.

It happens in other states as well. My sister used to send me links like this one she got in her Union news letter: http://atu.bluestatedigital.com/content/pages/kyr_transit_violence (http://atu.bluestatedigital.com/content/pages/kyr_transit_violence)
They will just have to find a way to address the problem.

I've been riding buses, trams, and subways unchaperoned since I was a 9 year old Toronto kid.
Two incidents:
1992. One guy said, "Whateryoulookinat?" on subway platform. I looked in other direction.
2004. Stinky drunk street person on a same bus as me for 10 blocks. Held nose, opened window.
That's it. Have I been incredibly lucky? I doubt it.

The fearmongering that circulates around public transit has an effect. It pushes more frightened people into cars.
It's easy for people to accept the notion that they'd be safer behind the wheel. But it's a complete fallacy.

Focussing on videos and news reports such as those above distracts us from the truth.
Most strangers get along pretty well when in close proximity to each other.
The problem is that uneventful bus rides don't make for high YouTube page views. And intolerance is infectious.
I suspect that threads like these seek to exacerbate the problem.

I just don't like crowds and waiting for God knows how long for a bus or train. But if I had to I'd rather take mass transit than drive. Yeah people usually do get along though and rude commuters are frowned upon.

I never took mass transit during odd hours so I can't comment but I know crime happens on NYC subways late nights, it's better now than 10-20 years ago but you can still get mugged if you;re not careful.

Adam

I've ridden a few dangerous buses, like the routes between Santa Monica and downtown L.A. that go down Wilshire at peak hours. They are real sardine cans and once I found the fellow standing behind me trying to extract the contents of my backpack. He failed :)

But 99% of the time, there is no problem. And in many cases, if you ride a route regularly, you get to know the other regulars, chat with them and people help each other out.

I think the bigger problems are the waiting and travel times as well as a certain snobbery of some in regards to the bus.

But 99% of the time, there is no problem. And in many cases, if you ride a route regularly, you get to know the other regulars, chat with them and people help each other out.

:thumb:

Those chats can be quite entertaining, and really help the time o pass. Just the other day the people on the bus were having a group discussion about bikes, of all things. They were upset about the law that requires bicyclists to wear a helmet. I chimed in that the law only refers to minors under 16. A couple of them said, "In that case, I'mg oing to get my old bike out this spring and start riding it again."

How about the fact about the rate of public transit related fatalities versus car related fatalities. I've been in one car crash, and one bus crash. In the car crash, it was a low speed collision from a stop in an intersection, and even though I was driving a Lincoln it still felt like my teeth were going to be knocked out of my head. In the bus crash, an oncoming car slid into the buses lane and the bus clipped the car before skidding into a snow bank and crashing through a tree. The car and driver were pretty smashed up, while the bus had a cracked windshield (from the snow) and a dent where the bumper smashed right through a 2 foot diameter pine tree. If I was in a car it would have been a 35 MPH head on collision, with would have been potentially fatal for both of us. Which comes to another point, not only do buses win in almost all collisions, but they're driven by professionals.

Along the same lines, I'd much rather have a trained pilot fly a professionally maintained plane rather than fly myself in a puddle jumper; and I'd rather have a trained driver drive myself in a professionally maintained vehicle, rather drive myself around in a little tin can, hoping the other drivers don't kill me.

Oh, and I've actually been in two minor bus accidents. Once when I was in high school a car apparently rear-ended the school bus, but none of us even realized it (although I'm sure we would have noticed if we'd been rear-ended in a car). Another one was in Seattle, where a driver had a seizure and ran across four lanes of traffic before cutting off the bus. Fortunately, the driver saw this right away, and was able to get the bus slowed down to the point we hit the car relatively gently. The roads are dangerous, and dead weight and professional drivers combine to give you the safest passage through traffic, hands down.

I'm surprised that people didn't mention, one of the most dangerous things people do in our society is drive in private cars, and one of the safest forms of transportation is public transit, which gets safety from the reality of having a driver whose job is nothing more than to move people around safely.

I can't believe I saw someone post the "I am a mothe****er/amber lamps" video in a context other than as an internet meme.

That said, yeah, public transit often blows. Loudmouth idiots, the smelliest/most obnoxious people inevitably sit next to you, gross smells everywhere, suspicious things spilled on the seats, unreliable service that seems to be based more on driver whim than anything...I love life so much more when I can bike places instead of taking SEPTA.

The fearmongering that circulates around public transit has an effect. It pushes more frightened people into cars.
It's easy for people to accept the notion that they'd be safer behind the wheel. But it's a complete fallacy.



+1

I went to YouTube and entered "Road Rage" and "Parking Lot Fights" and had over a dozen incidents to look at. I could have spent hours looking at all the auto accidents and fatalities.

I can't believe I saw someone post the "I am a mothe****er/amber lamps" video in a context other than as an internet meme.

That said, yeah, public transit often blows. Loudmouth idiots, the smelliest/most obnoxious people inevitably sit next to you, gross smells everywhere, suspicious things spilled on the seats, unreliable service that seems to be based more on driver whim than anything...I love life so much more when I can bike places instead of taking SEPTA.
So much depends on the individual bus company. Mine (CATA) provides clean buses, some attempt to police passenger behavior. and reliable service. I know I'm lucky, but very few services are as bad as what you describe on SEPTA. I don't know what you can do about it, other than let SEPTA know that they lost you as a customer because they have lousy service.

".....Plus lack of proper socialization to using any sort of public place, not just public transit....."

Here in Southern California, I think it is more a matter of no longer being used to (i.e. fancy Social Science term is proper socialization at a young age) either being around a large group of strangers and/or acting out at public places such as the local library that I once used for Internet access (and no longer except for a quick drop-in for books and leave-already major problems can erupt at any time and have do so), using the "new" bike lanes painted on surface streets (cars drivers like to use them as auxiliary parking and leave doors open which blocks cyclists in the lane-just happen today as a matter of fact, and adding to the mix beggars, moochers and minor scam artists always lining up at the grocery or drug store (thank heavens for the Internet ordering). I am not generalizing other's experience in different parts of the country or in other countries. I am saying that California seems to still attract the most unsocialized and the older people who were socialized to the old streetcar system of the last century is mostly gone now. Public transit-and even public anything-can force people out of their cars. But it will take some time, if ever, for these people to learn to simply be around other people.

With the loss of cheap fuel for everyone everywhere that is coming for sure, I feel that time is no longer a luxury to take for granted being locked away in a private motor vehicle and dashing in and out of suburbia anymore. People need to retake "etiquette classes" and learn how to live around all types of people in all types of situations. It is not all "how to drink your tea with your little pinkie extended out" what most people now believe what is really is proper etiquette is supposed to be or supposed snobbish behavior.

As long as I can remember, older people have been complaining about how young people don't know how to behave in public. In 1970 my friend Matthew always cussed on the bus, including the F word. Adults would tell him to knock it off, and I would even tell him to clean it up if there were women or younger children on the bus.

The point is, I really don't think public behavior has gotten worse over the years. I just think it bothers us more as we get older.

You do know that Arnold is proposing cutting 3 cents out of the gas tax? May not get it because it has to be approved in the new budget but just guess where that 3 cents he wants to cut goes to?

We talk about people learning to get along better but will it ever happen? Remember Bernie Goetz? We as a nation then were not even close to being as divided as we are today.

I have not been to a base ball game in a long time that didn’t have at least one fight break out or someone get ejected. It might not be as bad a soccer fans but it is getting there.

I wish it would be better and when taking public transportation we didn’t have to put up with pan handlers and scam artists.

My personal belief is we as a nation will continue to subsidize private transportation and only pay lip service to any real move in public transportation. Notice I didn’t say that is what we need but what I believe we will do. I don’t know what will power the private vehicles of the future but I don’t see the public system with enough support to supplant it.

The strange thing is I enjoyed the English public transportation a lot. I felt safe both on Busses and the Underground. Same thing in Japan and even in Africa riding the bus seems easy enough if you don’t mind the poultry now and then. But there are parts of LA I would be afraid to ride a bus in after dark even if I might be willing to drive through them in a car. Those fears cannot be waved away with the simple phrase of don’t worry about it. I am not worried about the bus driver or an accident I am worried about the other passengers and about where they put the bus stops at night.

If California continues cutting public transportation funds I simply don’t see things getting better any time soon in our state.

I have been on the L.A. bus system when a fight broke out.. The combatants were being thrown around falling onto other passengers.. Never have I felt fearful on rail.. But , one of the few times I used Greyhound for long trips long ago , some dude pulled out his pistol at about 3 AM when everyone was asleep.. Did not know what to do , I slept with one eye open.. Felt confronting such a person to be unwise.. Everyone else must have been soundly asleep.?... He just examined his gun for about 10 minutes and then put it away.. He opened the barrel for what purpose.? Scared the hell out of me..
... But , don't put the whole onus on pubic transportation.. Driving my car about Detroit Freeways , I 've missed the custom of random freeway drive- by shootings at motorists on the freeway below from viaducts or from other cars , by just minutes.. Heard the report on the radio there was a random shooting on Freeway X at a given location.. My god, I missed that one by maybe 5 minutes was my estimate..

I have been on the L.A. bus system when a fight broke out.. The combatants were being thrown around falling onto other passengers.. Never have I felt fearful on rail.. But , one of the few times I used Greyhound for long trips long ago , some dude pulled out his pistol at about 3 AM when everyone was asleep.. Did not know what to do , I slept with one eye open.. Felt confronting such a person to be unwise.. Everyone else must have been soundly asleep.?... He just examined his gun for about 10 minutes and then put it away.. He opened the barrel for what purpose.? Scared the hell out of me..
... But , don't put the whole onus on pubic transportation.. Driving my car about Detroit Freeways , I 've missed the custom of random freeway drive- by shootings at motorists on the freeway below from viaducts or from other cars , by just minutes.. Heard the report on the radio there was a random shooting on Freeway X at a given location.. My god, I missed that one by maybe 5 minutes was my estimate..
Yeah, people might bother you anywhere. No form of transportation is totally safe. A cement block was dropped on the car I was riding in on the Lodge x-way in 1966. A few years later members of the BK (Black Killers) gang would intimidate me and other passengers on the Detroit buses. Just a couple years ago a "motorist" tried to beat me because I yelled at him when he almost hit me as I was walking down the street. And of course, like mos cyclists I've had run-ins with a couple cagers over the years.

I just try to be careful, but at the same time remember that these quasi-violent acts are very rare and mostly random, and unlikely to affect me at any given time. You can't let fear stop you--especially fear of things that are unlikely to occur.

No Roody, I don't let fear grip me, even though I've been mugged twice.. I still go to late night movies or Red Wing games when in Detroit..
But, as you say, you had a close one with the bowling ball incident.. I missed a drive by shooting near the John Lodge and Edsel Ford Freeways by minutes..
And was chased by a homeless guy with a steel pipe in New York within sight of the UN..
Random..?... Sounds like you and I've been close to some random action...
But, don't blame pubic transit.. Think I'd feel safer on Amtrak than on an LA freeway at 2 in the Morning.. They have drive by's there too.
.

I get afraid of my road bike being stolen. Thats why I never ride my bike + take a bus or skytrain.

Whatever happens to mass transit usage or even civil behavior, the private car appears to be on the way out as a real choice:

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=7292591

It is getting worse here in the Los Angeles area with all the new arrivals and their vehicles. Our present or even future mass transit infrastructure (including the roadways since we mostly use buses here) cannot support all these people and their needs.

Whatever happens to mass transit usage or even civil behavior, the private car appears to be on the way out as a real choice:

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=7292591

It is getting worse here in the Los Angeles area with all the new arrivals and their vehicles. Our present or even future mass transit infrastructure (including the roadways since we mostly use buses here) cannot support all these people and their needs.

I wonder if you have a time frame for this decline in personal transportation. While a year ago I might have agreed more this year the Auto industry in posting positive numbers again. YTD sales are 698,346 units compared to last year with 656,976 units. That is a 15.4 percent increase in sales over last year. If you want the site for YTD and SAAR I can post it.

The mass transit systems in our state at least are facing cut backs and layoffs so unless something happens soon personal transportation seems healthier than mass transit. OCTA is planning on cutting bus runs and getting rid of 200 employees I have seen then projected numbers of the other major Metro areas but I suspect they are in the same boat. If we remember the government gave the auto industry 38 billion dollars and then gave between 2 and 4 billion more to get people to buy new cars by trading in their old paid for cars. When should I start looking for this change in my area?

I am not saying LA isn’t congested but LA is also laying off city workers, 3000 if the news is correct. So Arnold is suggesting cutting 3 cents of the gas tax that goes to mass transit. The transit districts are laying off people and the auto industry seems to be on the way back. How does that give us hope mass transit will increase? I might like to see it but so far it doesn’t look like that is the direction things are headed.

Whatever happens to mass transit usage or even civil behavior, the private car appears to be on the way out as a real choice:

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=7292591

Six miles an hour on the 110 at rush hour Thursdays. No wonder they hate bikes. Vendors on motorcycles could make a mint selling snacks to drivers in traffic. Or on roller skates maybe. ;)

I reached my limit in L.A. in 1985 or so. I drove from my apartment in the Wilshire District to my Dad's house in Lake Elsinore one Friday night and realized that traffic on the freeway was so slow that it would have been faster to ride my bike the 40 mile distance.

Some city buses in Manhattan were clocked at around 2-3mph average! You can walk crosstown faster than the traffic moves, LOL :D During a weekday it may take up to 20 minutes to get from 1st Ave to 6th along 34th Street by bus under 10 minutes walking at normal pace, a few minutes by bike.

Adam

The mass transit systems in our state at least are facing cut backs and layoffs so unless something happens soon personal transportation seems healthier than mass transit. OCTA is planning on cutting bus runs and getting rid of 200 employees I have seen then projected numbers of the other major Metro areas but I suspect they are in the same boat. If we remember the government gave the auto industry 38 billion dollars and then gave between 2 and 4 billion more to get people to buy new cars by trading in their old paid for cars. When should I start looking for this change in my area?

I am not saying LA isn’t congested but LA is also laying off city workers, 3000 if the news is correct. So Arnold is suggesting cutting 3 cents of the gas tax that goes to mass transit. The transit districts are laying off people and the auto industry seems to be on the way back. How does that give us hope mass transit will increase? I might like to see it but so far it doesn’t look like that is the direction things are headed.
If that truly becomes California's direction, I fail to see how they will survive the next gas price hike. Their economy was severely crippled when the price hit $4 a gallon. What will happens when it hits $6 or $8? People and their governments seem to live with the idea that things will get better (ie, a major oil find will happen under Antarctica or something...), but I wouldn't count on it.

So much depends on the individual bus company. Mine (CATA) provides clean buses, some attempt to police passenger behavior. and reliable service. I know I'm lucky, but very few services are as bad as what you describe on SEPTA. I don't know what you can do about it, other than let SEPTA know that they lost you as a customer because they have lousy service.

I've ridden SEPTA trains many times and they are clean and modern. I think they rival MetroNorth trains in New York City and the people who use them are nothing like what the posted stated. I also like the SEPTA surface trolleys too. Quite enjoyable.

It's amazing how two people will ride the same train and come out with completely difference experiences.

I've ridden SEPTA trains many times and they are clean and modern. I think they rival MetroNorth trains in New York City and the people who use them are nothing like what the posted stated. I also like the SEPTA surface trolleys too. Quite enjoyable.

It's amazing how two people will ride the same train and come out with completely difference experiences.
Well, like with anything else, it all depends on your attitude. Many people have decided they're going to hate the bus before they even get on it. Then they notice all the bad things and everything that's positive escapes their notice. If you're open to it (and I'm pretty sure you are, Steve) you will have fun on the bus. There are almost always attractive people to watch or interesting people to talk to. There are big windows for scenery. If you like to be distracted, you might have a phone, game or music device. And of course there's the old standby of reading the newspaper.

I wonder if you have a time frame for this decline in personal transportation. While a year ago I might have agreed more this year the Auto industry in posting positive numbers again. YTD sales are 698,346 units compared to last year with 656,976 units. That is a 15.4 percent increase in sales over last year. If you want the site for YTD and SAAR I can post it.

The mass transit systems in our state at least are facing cut backs and layoffs so unless something happens soon personal transportation seems healthier than mass transit. OCTA is planning on cutting bus runs and getting rid of 200 employees I have seen then projected numbers of the other major Metro areas but I suspect they are in the same boat. If we remember the government gave the auto industry 38 billion dollars and then gave between 2 and 4 billion more to get people to buy new cars by trading in their old paid for cars. When should I start looking for this change in my area?

I am not saying LA isn’t congested but LA is also laying off city workers, 3000 if the news is correct. So Arnold is suggesting cutting 3 cents of the gas tax that goes to mass transit. The transit districts are laying off people and the auto industry seems to be on the way back. How does that give us hope mass transit will increase? I might like to see it but so far it doesn’t look like that is the direction things are headed.

I don't think major changes in people's habits are due to change vastly anytime soon. I am not privy to crystal balls either. So a personal rough guess is.....it is already happening. Look at the rise in the light rail trains of Metro (and how crowded even these became over the past few years oil problems or not). Have you seen or even tried the MTA Red Rapide Buses becoming increasing in what few lines are added first? And the increase in bicycle usage within the Los Angeles basin-in spite of this area being so spread out and planned around the auto or other motor vehicles. I see more in that direction. Why? Even the very poor and the homeless has a bike. Not a very nice one or even a good one with logos displayed on it's side like Magma, Roadmaster, Murray, or even Schwinn made during the past few years. Or the drying up of cheaper used bikes that I once picked up from 10-50 dollars just 10 or so years ago? People don't like to advertise around here that they are embracing (if that is an accurate word) alternative transit. I just don't think heavy use of mass transit will be the future as far as the lower and middle classes are concerned. They will struggle on less and less and always try to "get by" and starve to keep their cars. Now the wealthy....that is something else. They like to use mass transit as sort of diversion or amusement park ride on Sundays on the Gold Line at least.


If that truly becomes California's direction, I fail to see how they will survive the next gas price hike. Their economy was severely crippled when the price hit $4 a gallon. What will happens when it hits $6 or $8? People and their governments seem to live with the idea that things will get better (ie, a major oil find will happen under Antarctica or something...), but I wouldn't count on it.

I was just 16 years old in 1973 when the first of the "Energy Crisis" series of game playing gas/petrol artificial scarcity occured. My father drove those "funny little cars" from Asia and Europe that people laughed at and failed to buy in large numbers in the 1960s and early 1970s. They stopped laughing when my father whizzed by gas/petrol stations while they stewed in their private tanks waiting for their odd/even turn because his cars only needed to be filled around once a week and he was not shy about car pooling or using buses if he had to. I of course had my bikes as well as my sister to get around and be independent of all that too. This was before all the hoopla over "bike paths," "bike lanes," "bikes on board," and other niceties politicians and other talking heads like to chatter about and do little about or not the right need or issue is addressed.

I choose my own path, I don't wait around for change because it usually disappoints.

If that truly becomes California's direction, I fail to see how they will survive the next gas price hike. Their economy was severely crippled when the price hit $4 a gallon. What will happens when it hits $6 or $8? People and their governments seem to live with the idea that things will get better (ie, a major oil find will happen under Antarctica or something...), but I wouldn't count on it.

I don’t know how or if they will either. They are touting diesel and LPG or Natural gas as a possible solution and of course they put on a big show for EVs not long ago. But one thing is for sure the Auto industry got the bail out and mass transit is getting cut. I don’t know if they are going to lose the 3 cent gas tax but if they do even more drivers will lose their jobs and even more bus runs will be cut.
Still one has to wonder if gas hit 8 to 10 bucks a gallon will bread be 7 bucks a loaf? Will milk be 5 bucks a quart? The farther away you are from where food is produced it seems the more it will cost you? That may be another subject however.

Still one has to wonder if gas hit 8 to 10 bucks a gallon will bread be 7 bucks a loaf? Will milk be 5 bucks a quart? The farther away you are from where food is produced it seems the more it will cost you? That may be another subject however.

Do you go to the store? I pay $3.99 for a small load of whole wheat bread that's reasonably fit to eat. I imagine $7 is not that far away. That's why I get up every Sunday morning, start some yeast and get the flour out.

I've ridden transit in Toronto (where I live), Montreal, Vancouver, New York, Washington, Paris, Amsterdam and Lille. I can't think of any threatening incidents on any of those systems. I did see a couple of wankers defacing the window of a train in Paris, but they were only on for one stop.

I think the key to having a decent transit system is having a long history of transit use. Nobody in Toronto or Montreal would suggest that the transit riders are lower class than drivers. I haven't ridden much transit in more car-centric cities like LA. I imagine that a big part of the problem in those places is the public perception that transit is for losers, rather than 'the better way' as we say here.

The biggest threat to transit in Toronto is slow funding strangulation as senior levels of government divert our taxes elsewhere and force the city and fare box to cover the whole cost.

We have drivers' training in most high schools, I think. Maybe we could have a little "transit training" to go along with it.

Public transportation has been my main form of transportation for 13 years. I've been taking my kids on it since they were days old. We've never really had any problems, certainly not violence. So from personal experience, I can say that Portland in the late 1990s, Salt Lake City right before and after the turn of the century, and Madison at the present have reasonably safe public transportation.

Do you go to the store? I pay $3.99 for a small load of whole wheat bread that's reasonably fit to eat. I imagine $7 is not that far away. That's why I get up every Sunday morning, start some yeast and get the flour out.

I think I once mentioned I go to one of the large warehouse grocery stores and pay between $1.50 and $2.50 for whole grain whole wheat. What gets me is how much breakfast cereal now cost. But I can get real butter for less than $2.00 a pound but maybe that is because we live where they have so many dairies. Still if gas does go up food will not be far behind and the small markets will get hit first I think. I might start making bread if I couldn’t beat $5.00 however.

I think I once mentioned I go to one of the large warehouse grocery stores and pay between $1.50 and $2.50 for whole grain whole wheat. What gets me is how much breakfast cereal now cost. But I can get real butter for less than $2.00 a pound but maybe that is because we live where they have so many dairies. Still if gas does go up food will not be far behind and the small markets will get hit first I think. I might start making bread if I couldn’t beat $5.00 however.

I recall a thread a while back where transportation costs of products were discussed and IIRC they amount to less than 5% of the total cost of a product. Yes the price will go up when gas does, but in many cases I suspect that the prices quite often jump more than the actual cost does as a scurrilous method of making up for some lost profit, kind of like a change order on a construction site. In businesses today they try to treat every step of the chain as a profit center.

Aaron :)

My wife is 8 months pregnant, and even then, even when she asks nicely, here in SF people will not give up their seats to let her sit down. They won't for elderly, even folks on crutches. I've seen it happen so many times. Keep in mind it is federal law to do so. Too bad you can't use that as an excuse to avoid an assault charge when some 30 something able bodied commuter refuses to give up his seat for some 90 year old lady.

Yes I also believe they milk any increase for all it is worth. But I also realize that is if you are a truck driver fuel is a major cost in your expenses. If Gas goes up diesel goes up as well and in some cases even more. Today they pay about $3.00 a gallon and with 200 gallons of fuel that is $600.00 off the top of your profit every time you fuel up. La to Seattle is at least two and for some a bit more fill ups for a truck. $1200 to $1500.00 in costs at today’s prices. If fuel goes to $10.00 a driver will be looking at $2000.00 every time he fuel up. $6000.00 off the top of his check to make a delivery one way to Seattle from LA.
The only reason I mention Seattle to LA is that is where my new bike frame will come from. My cost may be locked in because it is already ordered and paid for but if the fuel cost more than doubled I bet my cost would increase as well. My guess it would be by more than 5 percent. Like you said everyone will get their cut of the customer’s dollar.
Still security is a big concern for many people at least looking at my neighborhood and the sale of security systems. It is a reason many have given on internet sites for moving out of the city into the suburbs. It is a reason many have given when asked why the drive their own car rather than take public transportation. Right or wrong it is a concern that has to be addressed before you will get people out of their cars and onto mass transit.
And from other threads in LCF no one cares if mass transit involves the Suburbs anyway and they are the ones that drive the most. So I don’t believe there will be much change in attitude. The broad brush says, big city people ride mass transit and urban sprawl and suburb people drive cars.
If you want a cold water splash of reality of what the 90 percent of our fellow citizens think simply visit Edmunds and click on forums. Some of them will defend their cars more than the NRA will defend guns.

If you want a cold water splash of reality of what the 90 percent of our fellow citizens think simply visit Edmunds and click on forums. Some of them will defend their cars more than the NRA will defend guns.

That would be just too scary for me. I try to relax and keep my blood pressure low.

My wife is 8 months pregnant, and even then, even when she asks nicely, here in SF people will not give up their seats to let her sit down. They won't for elderly, even folks on crutches. I've seen it happen so many times. Keep in mind it is federal law to do so. Too bad you can't use that as an excuse to avoid an assault charge when some 30 something able bodied commuter refuses to give up his seat for some 90 year old lady.

These people are about as polite as your average urban cager. No surprises there.

My wife is 8 months pregnant, and even then, even when she asks nicely, here in SF people will not give up their seats to let her sit down. They won't for elderly, even folks on crutches. I've seen it happen so many times. Keep in mind it is federal law to do so. Too bad you can't use that as an excuse to avoid an assault charge when some 30 something able bodied commuter refuses to give up his seat for some 90 year old lady.

I only see that sort of behavior on the extremely crowded lines running to/from the central downtown Los Angeles. My 80+ year old obviously disabled mother commented to me recently that she is more likely booted off her front 1st or so seat for the wheelchair bound people boarding later after her, even for people with small children that are able to walk just a short distance to seats a little further down the aisles. So I do see more of a prioritizing among even the at-risk groups of disabled population even when I am not with my mother. Perhaps that makes people less likely to cooperate for this special population. Or it could be "I have mine....F*** You and this blessed healthier population simply feels entitlement to any seat because they paid for one.

I cannot say one way or another as I don't have the ability to read minds & hearts. I can say for sure even my mother gives up her seat for the obvious pregnant without a second thought. She told me she been there, done all that before as I am living proof of this.

I won't take public transportation. I used to ride tri-met in the Portland area when I was younger, but the local bus system in Anchorage is a lot seedier. Plus they don't allow carrying of small arms, and I'm always carrying small arms. I love the bike or my feet because I can be free that way. As soon as you start relying on cars, buses or whatnot your liberty is intruded upon.

I think this thread jinxed me. I wrote earlier that I had never seen overt violence on a bus. that changed today. Actually, it was in the bus station. As I was trying to buy some bus tokens, a large kid slammed into the wall right next to me. I looked over and saw another kid throwing off his book bag and shouting obscenities at the kid he had just shoved into the wall. That's all that happened, fortunately. Within 10 seconds several security guards were on the scene and the kids had run out of the building.

For a second i thought about cancelling my purchase of bus tickets and never riding the bus again. But I quickly came to my senses, bought my tokens and went to the door to wait for my bus.

I think this thread jinxed me. I wrote earlier that I had never seen overt violence on a bus. that changed today. Actually, it was in the bus station. As I was trying to buy some bus tokens, a large kid slammed into the wall right next to me. I looked over and saw another kid throwing off his book bag and shouting obscenities at the kid he had just shoved into the wall. That's all that happened, fortunately. Within 10 seconds several security guards were on the scene and the kids had run out of the building.

That doesn't sound any more violent that your average hockey game. Not that I'd look forward to being near the boards with a couple of NHL defensement.

One of the most violent things I last year was a large muscle pulling through a red light and removing the front end of an SUV. The SUV lady got out of the car acting as if nothing happened, but she was within inches of certain death.

So it's odd that people will feel insecure about violent activity on public transport then drive their cars like maniacs.

That doesn't sound any more violent that your average hockey game. Not that I'd look forward to being near the boards with a couple of NHL defensement.

One of the most violent things I last year was a large muscle pulling through a red light and removing the front end of an SUV. The SUV lady got out of the car acting as if nothing happened, but she was within inches of certain death.

So it's odd that people will feel insecure about violent activity on public transport then drive their cars like maniacs.

Not as strange as one might think. People are far more concerned about targeted attacks than they are about “Accidents”. Something like Columbine will stimulate new legislation and public outrage while a 110 car pile up will only get a few shoulder shrugs.
I have only had one bad experience riding the bus. I took a trip from San Diego to Seattle to visit relatives and we stopped several places in-between. A woman got on in LA and she was obviously strung out on something. She got loud and aggressive and sat in the seat right in front of me. When someone would ask her to lower her voice she would jump up and threaten to pull out a knife if anyone tried bothering her. We had to listen to her most of the way to Bakersfield and make sure we said nothing that might upset her even if we were talking to someone else. Mercifully she passed out and stayed that way all the way to Sacramento.
What was bothering me more than her actions was my inability to get away from her because I was sitting in a seat towards the rear of the bus. On the street I could walk another way of across the street but in the Bus I was trapped. She was taken off of the bus in Sacramento because no one could wake her up so they came and took her away.
Other than having to sit in a bus with someone that had different bathing habits than I did most other trips have been less exciting. My sister did witness a man in a wheel chair getting a beating by two young men. But I have never taken the bus on a long trip again and I will not ride one at night.

[QUOTE=Robert Foster;10442004]The mass transit systems in our state at least are facing cut backs and layoffs so unless something happens soon personal transportation seems healthier than mass transit. OCTA is planning on cutting bus runs and getting rid of 200 employees I have seen then projected numbers of the other major Metro areas but I suspect they are in the same boat. If we remember the government gave the auto industry 38 billion dollars and then gave between 2 and 4 billion more to get people to buy new cars by trading in their old paid for cars. When should I start looking for this change in my area?

I think Robert has a point.

You would have thought in the middle of this massive recession, mass transit would have been spared and road construction given the ax but it was just the opposite! To my surprise, the bus transit rider bore the blunt of all service cuts which makes sense since there is very little rail left. However, it goes to show you that we will under fund all public transit until the last drop of oil is sucked from the earth and the motorcar is sent to the museum.

We have built an economy that requires the sale of millions of cars and consumption of gasoline. While the rest of the world builds it riches on manufacturing, ours consists of acquiring personal motor transport through bank loans.

I recall a thread a while back where transportation costs of products were discussed and IIRC they amount to less than 5% of the total cost of a product.You're forgetting that the fossil fuel input into food goes way beyond transport. There is fuel used in the farm machinery that tills the soil and plants, cultivates and harvests the crop, and in the refrigeration systems and processing plants and packaging that prepare it for sale. There is also fuel consumed in the extraction or manufacture of fertilizers and pesticides used to maximize production. And fossil fuel doesn't just power that agricultural chemical production: natural gas and other fossil fuel products, whose price goes up when gasoline's does, are actually converted into these chemicals and dumped on the fields in bulk. It's going to be a lot more than 5% of the costs when it's all added up.

If that truly becomes California's direction, I fail to see how they will survive the next gas price hike. Their economy was severely crippled when the price hit $4 a gallon. What will happens when it hits $6 or $8? People and their governments seem to live with the idea that things will get better (ie, a major oil find will happen under Antarctica or something...), but I wouldn't count on it.

I did some research into mass transit in some other areas other than where my sister worked and it doesn't look good.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/MTA-Layoffs-service-cuts-rate-increases-85579762.html (http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/MTA-Layoffs-service-cuts-rate-increases-85579762.html)
http://www.finance-trading-times.com/2009/03/orange-county-transport-authority-octa.html (http://www.finance-trading-times.com/2009/03/orange-county-transport-authority-octa.html)
http://www.wcpn.org/WCPN/news/29715/ (http://www.wcpn.org/WCPN/news/29715/)