Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Larger Frame vs Longer Stem

My current bike is a 54 cm road bike with a 57 cm top tube.

I'm 5' 10" with just over 33" inseam. I know the current bike is smaller than just about anyone would recommend, but when I bought it I was in my early 20's and skinny and had all sorts of roadie dreams. I immediately put a taller and longer stem on it, and I've gotten by just fine with the bike the last 20 years like this. Now I'm older, heavier, and less flexible.

I've looked at KOPS method and Rivendell and Sheldon Brown, but now my head is spinning. Starting point between all these is in the range of 57-60 cm. I've found a nice older steel bike for around $350 in 57 cm. can 3 cm really make that much difference?

Or, I could possibly just get a longer stem. Some are cheap but ugly. Others are more attractive, and in the $50 range.

I've read til my head is spinning, and now I'm in over it.

How long can you go on a stem before handling gets wiggy? What is the advantage of a larger frame over a longer stem?

I guess, what are the merits of each?

I have my first road bike and it's seen little use because it's too small. I'll take it for one or two hour rides at the longest.

My other bikes are all on the large size. My Trek and Lynskey road bikes have 59cm virtual top tube lengths and my Soma Double Cross has a 60.3 cm VTT. These bikes have 120mm stems. I'm 6' even.

Oversized frames benefit from taller headtubes and longer wheelbase lengths. I'm also far more comfortable on a bigger bike when I'm tired. It just requires less effort to hold the position, IMO.

Michael

Every one's body is different. You've figured out your stand over height based on your inseam, but you also have to take into account things like the length of your torso from your seat to your sholders. This determines your reach, which is also effected by the length of your arms. These two things impact the length of your top tube. Then you start looking at your age, flexability, and the type of riding you intend to do, and this impacts the length of the stem and the height of the handle bars in relation to the height of the saddle. The stem you choose will have an angle to it that impacts the height of the handlebar and the distance it is from the saddle, so you have to take that into consideration when making, and fine tuning, your calculations. You'll know you have it correct when you can do long rides without your hands getting numb.

The tools for measuring a bike are changing almost daily, and there are great aids out there that can help you. The so called "standard concepts" for what should be comfortable are changing as the industry is getting better at figuring out speed and comfort. I heard a pod cast awhile back where Specalized used their measurement system to raise the stem height of one of the pro teams, which increased their comfort and speed. Raising a Cat 1 cyclist stem (handlebar) height in order to increase speed seems counter-intuative, which shows you how sophisticated these things are getting.

You might want to check with your LBS to see if they have, or can recommend a good computerized measuring system.

Every one's body is different. You've figured out your stand over height based on your inseam, but you also have to take into account things like the length of your torso from your seat to your sholders. This determines your reach, which is also effected by the length of your arms. These two things impact the length of your top tube. Then you start looking at your age, flexability, and the type of riding you intend to do, and this impacts the length of the stem and the height of the handle bars in relation to the height of the saddle. The stem you choose will have an angle to it that impacts the height of the handlebar and the distance it is from the saddle, so you have to take that into consideration when making, and fine tuning, your calculations. You'll know you have it correct when you can do long rides without your hands getting numb.

The tools for measuring a bike are changing almost daily, and there are great aids out there that can help you. The so called "standard concepts" for what should be comfortable are changing as the industry is getting better at figuring out speed and comfort. I heard a pod cast awhile back where Specalized used their measurement system to raise the stem height of one of the pro teams, which increased their comfort and speed. Raising a Cat 1 cyclist stem (handlebar) height in order to increase speed seems counter-intuative, which shows you how sophisticated these things are getting.

You might want to check with your LBS to see if they have, or can recommend a good computerized measuring system.

Thanks. There's a lot to it, I know, but I was under the imression that seat tube length was a good starting point on a classic, horizontal-top-tube frame.

I get all twisted up on stems because you can't adjust anything without affecting another measurement.

The type of riding I actually do and intend to keep doing with this bike involves long distance riding of one sort or another, so comfort is more of a premium to me than it was when I was a naive kid who wanted a "race bike."

I have mixed feelings about an LBS, since it was an LBS who talked me into this bike, but also because I don't want to waste their time.

I assume when you say "longer stem" you actually mean a stem with more rise? It does seem like your frame may have a top tube that is too long and a seat tube that is too short. Bear with me while I criticize your preferred path. I think a stem with a lot of rise always makes a bike look ugly. It also cuts down on your speed, which generally comes from your glutes. Those muscles are best utilized by a low, bent-over position. Now having said these two things, if you are not able to ride comfortably, you will not ride. And who cares if the bike is ugly. It is possible that increasing your core strength by doing light weightlifting will help you with a lower position. But that still leaves you with a bike that is too small.

IMO most distance riders -- and a lot of racers, these days -- are riding bikes too small. The LD rider in particular often benefits from a larger bike. I find larger frames more comfortable, likely because they flex more, given the same materials. And of course it is nice to be able to put your bars and stem where you want them without resorting to freakish posts and stems. In the OP's shoes I would absolutely buy a larger frame.

However, if the OP is perfectly comfortable with what he currently has...

Oh, and FWIW...

KOPS is not an ironclad rule. It came about decades ago when it was noticed that most professional road racers had their knees more-or-less on a plane with their pedal spindles. The only thing you can really take to the bank is that you probably should not be in front of the spindles. Other than that, good riders have turned in credible performances with knees up to several cm. behind the spindle.

As far as handling effects and stem lengths, it personal. I find that more vertical extension than horizontal extension -- for instance, a 10 cm. stem that sticks 12 cm. out of the steerer -- handles funny and looks awful. I have not found any horizontal extension to be too much or too little, however. I raced on 13 and sometimes 14 cm. stems. Now I use 9 and 10 cm. stems. I actually find that bar width has a much greater impact than horizontal stem length.

HTH.

I'm working with a traditional "7" shaped quill, here, so length would move my hands forward, and I guess "stack height" or just "height" alone would move them up and back. This is where it gets impossible for me to predict results.

The worst discomfort is probably my hands, and I can't seem to find a good adjustment of the bar and brake levers that gives me comfort on the hoods and the drops and allows good lever access from both positions. In this sense, I feel "scrunched" on the bike when I try to use the drops, and I can't stay there very long. On the hoods, it seems like there's a lot of pressure, but I guess I've never had a "good" fitting bike to compare it to.

My seat position seems fine relative to the pedals, or at least I don't think I have problems, there.

I would also say that toward the fall, I am more comfortable and able to handle longer distances, and I also need better core strength, which I'm trying to improve this year.

This is a bit rambling but I appreciate any criticism. I would actually prefer to get a bike with a better chance of fitting me, but right now that is also the more expensive option. Sounds like the obvious choice, though, if I can swing it.

Sounds to me like your bike is too small. I think Rivendell actually gives pretty good fitting advice for the LD rider. Bike shops today seem to hang their hats on the "smaller is better" mantra that has been taken to extremes even for racing. A comfortable, uncramped LD bike is liable to be 3-5 cm. bigger than a typical racing bike for the same fellow.

IMO most distance riders -- and a lot of racers, these days -- are riding bikes too small...

You can throw me in that group. I ride what many consider to be a frame that is too small. I spent 6hrs on a fit bike to come to that decision though. Most people aren't going to do that. I think a lot of people end up on frames that are too small because it is easier for a bike shop to add a longer stem and other parts than it is to replace a frame that is too big.

For the OP, I'd spend some money and get professionally fitted. You're going to have better success with someone you can work with in person than us. If you spend the $'s to get fitted you have every right to expect them to make you comfortable on your bike, or provide you with the measurements you need to purchase the right bike for you.

I'd spend some money and get professionally fitted.

I agree with Homeyba - making a mistake at this level could be way more expensive in the long run than paying a professional to fit you properly.

You can throw me in that group. I ride what many consider to be a frame that is too small. I spent 6hrs on a fit bike to come to that decision though. Most people aren't going to do that. I think a lot of people end up on frames that are too small because it is easier for a bike shop to add a longer stem and other parts than it is to replace a frame that is too big.

For the OP, I'd spend some money and get professionally fitted. You're going to have better success with someone you can work with in person than us. If you spend the $'s to get fitted you have every right to expect them to make you comfortable on your bike, or provide you with the measurements you need to purchase the right bike for you.

Well, judging by our exchanges I consider you more of a racer than a typical LD rider. I tend to think of LD riders as cruising around brevets, centuries, etc., trying to be comfortable and enjoying the scenery. As opposed to head down, turning a 60 ring on the aero bars, trying to turn in a fast leg in RAAM. Nothing wrong with either approach, of course.

I admit to being biased against most "fitting specialists". In my experience a great many of them are charlatans, either reading off of a chart or simply winging it. And most of the ones I would consider qualified don't know the first thing about distance riding. Show up to one of them with a frame size suggested by Rivendell, for instance, and they'll likely tell you your frame is dangerously large.

Check out this Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNcQdqrz4JQ&feature=related. I'm not endorsing these people, and don't know anything about them, but watch the videos (there are 4 of them) and you'll get a sense that there are people out there that approach fitting as a science. I agree with Six jours, in the posting that preceeds this, that many fitting specialists are charlatans, but if you watch these videos you'll understand that there are good fitting specialists out there. Ask around at your club or among your friends and get recommendations. Then interview them before you pay them money - if they're going to fit you with a tape measure and a scratch pad, you'll know that you can do better.

I don't know if Charlatan is the right word but I would agree that there are definitely a lot who do not know what they are doing or are just plain lazy. You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater though. You have to be a smart consumer. You are paying for a service and entitled to get what you pay for. If you pay for a fitting and you aren't comfortable afterward you should be refitted for free or get your money back. Simple as that. If you go to a shop for a fit and they tell you to get on your bike and ride around the parking lot while they watch, I'd just keep on riding. A good fitter will have the equipment and the know-how to do a proper job. A couple intelligent questions can get those answers pretty quick.

As far as my fit goes, I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone copy my fit. I spent a whole lot of time dialing in my fit to make it work for me and my riding style. It works for me on RAAM just as well as it does on brevets (I do raise my bars about an inch for long brevets).

Getting fitted properly can be tough but the rewards of a proper fitting make the search for a good fitter well worth the effort.

Lots of good stuff, here, so thanks all.

To rephrase my question more succinctly:

Theoretically, if you know and have empirically arrived at the "perfect" relationship between hands-butt-feet, and can achieve this relationship with either a "too small" frame or a larger "right-sized" frame, what are the advantages of the larger frame?

I'm hearing

1. Longer wheelbase (more stability)
2. More comfort due to frame compliance (and also from the stability)
3. Better looking (I'd have to agree)
4. Potentially better handling with less stem height.

I raised my stem another 5/8" or so last night but I haven't ridden it, yet. At this point it's about 14 cm from top of steerer to top of the "7," just slightly below the seat height. Yeah, it looks a little goofy.

How much does a professional fitting tend to run? Is it really worth it if I'm shopping CL?

How much does a professional fitting tend to run? Is it really worth it if I'm shopping CL?

I spent $250 on fitting and am very happy with the investment. My shop offers free fitting updates and I've now had three bikes professionally fitted at no extra cost. Each fitting has taken about an hour.

I'm now confident buying a bike based on its geometry table. I have purchased bikes at CL and frames at eBay. The shop has adjusted each bike in my stable.

I also ride 5000 miles a year and will complete 6 to 10 century rides a year. A well-fitted bike is basic.

Michael

...
1. Longer wheelbase (more stability)

Not necessarily, this is a function of frame geometry, not frame size. You can make a bigger frame a whole lot twitchier with a minor rake change in the fork and visa-versa with a smaller frame.


2. More comfort due to frame compliance (and also from the stability)

Frame compliance is a result of the frame design. A frame designer can make any frame as compliant or rigid as they want, regardless of size.


3. Better looking (I'd have to agree)

hmmm


4. Potentially better handling with less stem height.

If you start getting into extreme differences it might. I regularly move my stem up and down an inch and the difference in handling isn't even noticeable.



How much does a professional fitting tend to run? Is it really worth it if I'm shopping CL?
The prices range all over the place. Sometimes a fitter will discount the price if you buy a bike from them. You have to be careful that they are fitting you properly and not to one of their bikes. A good fitter will spend time with you and give you all the dimensions you need to find the right bike for you. You are buying a fit, not a bike. Good fitters are hard to find but they are out there.

My current bike is a 54 cm road bike with a 57 cm top tube.

I'm 5' 10" with just over 33" inseam.

Your bike is too small.

Since you mentioned looking for a bike on CL - I'll give some advice that gets poo-poo'd a lot by experts talking about buying new bikes.

Find the largest frame you can stand over. You have a 33" inseam so look for a bike with a 33" stand-over height. When it comes to buying used this is really the most practical way to look at frame sizes because you don't have the option to order blah and blah perfect sized everything etc.

If you like to set your bars really low (and it seems that you don't) then disregard this and look for a smaller frame. If you want the bars to be at a reasonable height without the need for a really tall stem, then take this advice. If you need more reach, get a stem with a longer reach, if you need less get one with less.

If you were just riding 30miles here and there or an occasional century you could certainly do what Mos6502 suggests. Since this is the long distance forum, fit is significantly more critical than for your average cyclist. You don't want to invest the effort and time required to get to the start of a long ride just to DNF part way through because of a comfort or fit problem that resulted from "guessing" at your bike fit. It is possible you could get it right but more likely you'll get it wrong.

How much does a professional fitting tend to run? Is it really worth it if I'm shopping CL?

(In Wichita) I think about $90 at Bicycle Pedaler. Bicycle Exchange has a sign on their door or window at the W. Douglas store explaining their fitting prices. Seems like it was $50, $90, and $250, or something like that.

I had the $90 fitting "free" when I bought my Roubaix at Pedaler last year. I got to listen to him talk more about all he knew about fitting than he ever applied to me. Basically agreed with everything I'd set up during my break-in period prior to the fitting.

Pedaler did a Fit-Kit measurement prior to buying the bike for free. Purpose was to determine which size to get. Full-blown fittings are for after you have the bike in hand and want to dial it in for you.

The Fit-Kit didn't provide me with anything I didn't already know from having my wife measure me per the fit calculator at competitivecycling.com. You might look at that to resolve your sizing question.

OBTW: I'm 5'10.5", 34" full-inseam. I ride a 56. Fit-Kit and the calculator at competitivecycling both say I need a 59 cm seat tube and 55.6 cm top tube. Good luck with that, eh? Let the top tube be your guide. That's all about torso and arm length. Get measured, home or at the store.

Since you mentioned looking for a bike on CL - I'll give some advice that gets poo-poo'd a lot by experts talking about buying new bikes.

Find the largest frame you can stand over. You have a 33" inseam so look for a bike with a 33" stand-over height.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I'm just estimating here, but if he has 33" inseam, that means his torso is on the short side. Unless his arms are relatively long, he probably would be well served with a bike that is a little on the short side if he also can get a short top tube. Unfortunately, his bike is a little out of proportion for him with a much longer top tube than seat tube. This was common on inexpensive production bikes, where they really wanted to keep the rider's toes as far away from the front wheel as possible.

If we really are talking about a bike for long distances, i.e. at least 100 miles, it pays to at least get measured so you can use a couple of fit calculators to see what size bikes make sense.

My 30 year old racing bike has a 54/54 square geometry. If the OP doesn't want to buy new, some older Italian racing frames might work pretty well. I just built myself a new long distance bike with a sloping top tube. I made the head tube about a centimeter longer than I would have with a horizontal top tube. Since I went with 73 degree head and seat tube angles, I could make a frame as tall as I wanted with the same top tube length.

Let the top tube be your guide. That's all about torso and arm length. Get measured, home or at the store.


Plus 10!

Top tube is the most important dimension, followed by head-tube. The seat-post allows for a long range of adjustment at the saddle and the right seat-post will position the seat fore-aft correctly. The position of the seat should be determined and set in relationship to the crank and pedal position. I completely ignore seat-tube length and stand-over height.

The reach is set once the ideal location of the seat is set. The correct length top tube, within a 20cm range is required. I can ride most road bike frames if the virtual top tube is between 58.5cm and 60.5cm. I then use a 110mm or 120mm stem to set the reach. I also use a compact style handlebar which also shortens the reach.

The right length head-tube will put the handlebar at the right height without a lot of goofy spacers.

Michael

OK, I need more measurements to even understand what to fix about my current bike.

But back to the question. Let's say I can achieve perfect fit either through perfect frame geometry, or through seatpost and stem adjustments. My question was "what's the advantage of finding that perfect frame?"

After all the discussion, the answer seems to be "not so much, really."

Am I missing something?


I don't need a lot of "goofy spacers" but my stem height might look "goofy." Why is a tall stem bad?


FWIW, I'm dipping my toe in, here. I'm not a RAAM guy and I even have yet to complete my first century. But, I want to find a bike or fit my bike suitably for long distances because that's what I think I enjoy the most. No way am I ready to build or order a custom frame. Mos6502's advice probably fits me to a tee at this moment, but I also appreciate the advice from the hardcore guys, in case I get deeper into this.

My bike is an 89 or 90 Raleigh Team "Technium," if that makes any difference to anyone.

Why is a tall stem bad?

Mostly aesthetics, IMO, but also more flex (not in itself a bad thing, but it can lead to imprecise handling), and more stress on both the stem and steerer, neither one of which is something you want to break. Also it's probably heavier than a "perfectly" fit frame and "proper" size stem (BFD, IMO).

SP
Bend, OR

In my experience a tall stem makes the bike handle badly. YMMV, but that's reason enough for me personally.

I agree with Six Jours, when you start getting really tall on the stem you start getting funky detached from the road feelings, in addition to the extra flex and stresses on the steerer. I move mine an inch when I switch from racing to brevet mode but I'm moving from flat on the steering head up one inch which is still in the "normal" range.

If you are serious about doing long distance stuff (brevets, double centuries etc) it is worth your while to get this right. A poor fitting bike on a long ride is a recipe for failure.

another dumb thing to consider when going with a smaller frame:

your hands will be further away from your downtube shifters and water bottles.

i'm from the camp (maybe because i'm tall) that you should get the largest frame that fits...whatever that means. i'm not hugely concerned with "handling" since i'm riding straight most of the time.

If you pick a longer stem it will for sure affect the handling(steering angles change) and the weight distribution could be sketchy ... best to stick to the stem the bicycle was designed for...

Calculating the length of your arms into the fit is very important, don't just rely on inseam and height

OK, I need more measurements to even understand what to fix about my current bike.

But back to the question. Let's say I can achieve perfect fit either through perfect frame geometry, or through seatpost and stem adjustments. My question was "what's the advantage of finding that perfect frame?"

After all the discussion, the answer seems to be "not so much, really."

Am I missing something?

It's a matter of strength and lightness. Having the seat post and the stem extended way out invites more flex into the system, so it leads to less efficient use of your energy. Some would argue that needing a longer seat post and stem adds more weight too, but I feel like it is probably a minimal trade off once you extend the frame upwards to make up for it.


FWIW, I'm dipping my toe in, here. I'm not a RAAM guy and I even have yet to complete my first century. But, I want to find a bike or fit my bike suitably for long distances because that's what I think I enjoy the most. No way am I ready to build or order a custom frame. Mos6502's advice probably fits me to a tee at this moment, but I also appreciate the advice from the hardcore guys, in case I get deeper into this.


I'm going to have to disagree with this. I'm just estimating here, but if he has 33" inseam, that means his torso is on the short side. Unless his arms are relatively long, he probably would be well served with a bike that is a little on the short side if he also can get a short top tube.

I'll add this caveat then: If you do find a bike that more or less fits your inseam BUT you find that you feel too stretched out AND you notice the stem already has a shortish reach (say 40mm or so) - then try finding a smaller frame. Because if it already has a short reach stem but you feel it is too long for you, there's really not much you can do to change that. If you feel stretched out, but it has say a 70mm, or 90mm reach stem, then you have some room for adjustment - you can find a shorter stem and compensate for that. I hope that makes sense.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I'm just estimating here, but if he has 33" inseam, that means his torso is on the short side. Unless his arms are relatively long, he probably would be well served with a bike that is a little on the short side if he also can get a short top tube. Unfortunately, his bike is a little out of proportion for him with a much longer top tube than seat tube. This was common on inexpensive production bikes, where they really wanted to keep the rider's toes as far away from the front wheel as possible.

If we really are talking about a bike for long distances, i.e. at least 100 miles, it pays to at least get measured so you can use a couple of fit calculators to see what size bikes make sense.

My 30 year old racing bike has a 54/54 square geometry. If the OP doesn't want to buy new, some older Italian racing frames might work pretty well. I just built myself a new long distance bike with a sloping top tube. I made the head tube about a centimeter longer than I would have with a horizontal top tube. Since I went with 73 degree head and seat tube angles, I could make a frame as tall as I wanted with the same top tube length.

Agreed. Given his general dimensions, a 57 TT may be just about right. I am 5'8 and all legs with a 32" pant and 33 1/2" cycling inseam, and I ride a 55 TT. Standover height is irrelevant except as it related to HT height.

I'll add this caveat then: If you do find a bike that more or less fits your inseam BUT you find that you feel too stretched out AND you notice the stem already has a shortish reach (say 40mm or so) - then try finding a smaller frame. Because if it already has a short reach stem but you feel it is too long for you, there's really not much you can do to change that. If you feel stretched out, but it has say a 70mm, or 90mm reach stem, then you have some room for adjustment - you can find a shorter stem and compensate for that. I hope that makes sense.

I think you are confirming why this isn't the best way to purchase a new bike if you are doing (or wanting to do) long distance riding. You vary easily could buy a bike that fits your inseam but later find it too long or too short in the top tub and you won't really know you have a problem until you are out on the road and you start having hand or arm problems. So, you've just wasted a bunch of money on a bike that doesn't fit you...

another dumb thing to consider when going with a smaller frame:

your hands will be further away from your downtube shifters and water bottles.

HUH??? The downtube position doesn't change from one frame size to another. Don't believe me? Just measure two of the same bike in different sizes. The shifters (or cable stops) and bottle cages will be in essentially the same place.

SP
Bend, OR

HUH??? The downtube position doesn't change from one frame size to another. Don't believe me? Just measure two of the same bike in different sizes. The shifters (or cable stops) and bottle cages will be in essentially the same place.

SP
Bend, OR

right, but not relative to your hand position. if your frame is tiny and you use more stem to compensate, then you will be relatively further away from your shifters.

I think the OP would do ok anywhere around 57-58. There are lots of bikes that size that don't have a particularly long top tube. I would definitely get someone to measure you. I can help anyone get a proper fit once you are measured, PM me.

How long can you go on a stem before handling gets wiggy? What is the advantage of a larger frame over a longer stem? There's nothing in these statements that suggests you understand bicycle construction as it relates to bicycle "handling" characteristics.

As near as I can tell - you'll be just as successful picking the "red one." Good luck, and have a great season.

I think you are confirming why this isn't the best way to purchase a new bike if you are doing (or wanting to do) long distance riding. You vary easily could buy a bike that fits your inseam but later find it too long or too short in the top tub and you won't really know you have a problem until you are out on the road and you start having hand or arm problems. So, you've just wasted a bunch of money on a bike that doesn't fit you...

Actually, I kind of confirmed why it is the one of the best ways. I don't understand why people are confused by getting the largest frame you feel comfortable on. Stand over height is the only practical measure of bike fit that cannot be adjusted - so when you are buying used, it is pretty much the most important thing to consider. ST and TT can both be compensated for through adjustment of seat height, and handlebars/stems.

Actually, I kind of confirmed why it is the one of the best ways. I don't understand why people are confused by getting the largest frame you feel comfortable on. Stand over height is the only practical measure of bike fit that cannot be adjusted - so when you are buying used, it is pretty much the most important thing to consider. ST and TT can both be compensated for through adjustment of seat height, and handlebars/stems.

False.

Most modern frames have sloping top-tibes. The standover height is meaningless.

False.

Most modern frames have sloping top-tibes. The standover height is meaningless.

Please, consider my advice within the context of this thread. The OP is talking about his decades old bike, and is considering getting a used bike off of CL.

Of course stand over height is trivial on a new bike with a sloping top tube. But that's not exactly what we're dealing with here. Trust me, if the OP was open to plunk down the money for a brand new bike, I would not be handing him this advice.

There's nothing in these statements that suggests you understand bicycle construction as it relates to bicycle "handling" characteristics.

As near as I can tell - you'll be just as successful picking the "red one." Good luck, and have a great season.

That's funny, right there. No, really. :D

And the truth is, no I don't understand it, which is why when someone on this forum suggested that a high stem would impact handling, I asked for clarification.

Otherwise, judging by this post your screen name is fitting.

another dumb thing to consider when going with a smaller frame:

your hands will be further away from your downtube shifters and water bottles.



If my hand and seat position are the same in either case, I don't think the reach to the downtube shifters would vary. At least not by enough to worry about.

First, try out a stem on your bike that is considerably longer than what you have. It pays to check out the extremes and see how you like them. If you like getting taller in the stem, then consider getting a whole different bike with everything else you want (lower gears?). A larger bike is nicer but you may as well get exactly what you want and it is best to try kludging your current bike to see how it might work for you. I am a big believer in cheap temporary experiments to gain first hand knowledge about what works for me.

I'm working with a traditional "7" shaped quill, here, so length would move my hands forward, and I guess "stack height" or just "height" alone would move them up and back. This is where it gets impossible for me to predict results.


When I fiddled around with length vs rise and spacer I found sketching the results out in CAD beneficial.

Based on my experience, too much pressure on the hands often results from the bars being too low and/or the front of the saddle being too low. Not being able to maintain a position in the drops has resulted from the bars being too low, or in extreme cases, the reach being too short. Since you have both of these problems, and a top tube length that I would consider long for someone of your approximate dimensions (I'm barely 5'10" with shorter legs than you and am comfy with a 55cm TT and 110mm stem), I'd suggest attempting to raise the handlebar height. This can be done by raising or installing a taller quill stem, or installing spacers or a taller stem if you run threadless. Perhaps also ensure that your seat is level, and that your pedaling geometry is good (fore-aft seat positioning and seat height) before adjusting reach and handlebar height. This step will help to eliminate the foreward-sloping seat issue from your fit issues.

I would agree with Six Jours that a very tall stem makes for funny handling, but that handlebar width makes a far bigger difference. My mountain bike experiance confirms this, and I've applied what I've learned there to my road bikes with great results - shorter stem and very wide bars have made for a very very stable, but responsive cockpit without the boat-tiller feeling of a super long stem.

I wouldn't be suprised if the shop sold you on a small bike because about 20 years ago the pro style fit was a small frame with a long, long stem. This resulted in a very low handlebar, but with a nice long reach. Good if your body is conditioned for it and you're into making sacrifices in comfort for speed, but not so good for those without the conditioning or "speed at all costs" focus. Shorter and taller is likely more suitable for many riders, and the crop of comfort-oriented performance bikes (Roubaix for example) is pretty good evidence of this.

I think we've drifted a bit though. If you want to know what's better, a long stem or a larger bike, then well, it depends. :)
If the bike is too small it may be difficult to get the bars to the right height and reach with normal components, and difficult to get the seat high enough and far enough back to get proper pedaling geometry. If the frame is too large you may not be able to get the bars low enough (due to the tall head tube) or close enough (normal stems only get so short) or get your seat low enough due to seat tube length. And you might tag yourself in the nuts more on a big bike. :) I'm guessing since you've managed to put a bunch of miles on this bike over 20 years than it's in the right range and you can get it to fit quite nicely with a few adjustments or swaps using standard components.



Oh, and reaching your shifters is going to be the same on either a small frame or a large frame if the handlebars are at the same height and the shifters are in the same position on the down tube both frames.

I took more careful measurements this weekend, following the "Competitive Cyclist" method. We took each measurement 3 times and averaged the results. In cases where there were right and left measurements, the result was an average of 6 measurements--3 from each side. The output, for those who may not know, is 3 recommended "fits" for different riding styles or preferences. The one most attractive to me at the moment is the "French Fit," which seems to offer the most comfort.

Bottom line is that for any of the three fit styles, CC recommends a seat tube longer than the top tube by a fair margin. On the French Fit, for example, seat tube (c-t) is 60 cm, with top tube just under 56 cm.

What I'm noticing with "off the shelf" bikes (new or used) is that they seem to not be built this way. Most seem to be within a centimeter or less of each other, or even square.

CC also recommends a stem length of about 10.5 cm. The seemingly obvious answer (at least to me), short of a custom-built frame, would be to get a "60 cm" bike with a 59 cm top tube (fairly typical), and put a shorter stem on it (say, 7.5 cm, for starters).

Thoughts?

I took more careful measurements this weekend, following the "Competitive Cyclist" method. We took each measurement 3 times and averaged the results. In cases where there were right and left measurements, the result was an average of 6 measurements--3 from each side. The output, for those who may not know, is 3 recommended "fits" for different riding styles or preferences. The one most attractive to me at the moment is the "French Fit," which seems to offer the most comfort.

Bottom line is that for any of the three fit styles, CC recommends a seat tube longer than the top tube by a fair margin. On the French Fit, for example, seat tube (c-t) is 60 cm, with top tube just under 56 cm.

What I'm noticing with "off the shelf" bikes (new or used) is that they seem to not be built this way. Most seem to be within a centimeter or less of each other, or even square.

CC also recommends a stem length of about 10.5 cm. The seemingly obvious answer (at least to me), short of a custom-built frame, would be to get a "60 cm" bike with a 59 cm top tube (fairly typical), and put a shorter stem on it (say, 7.5 cm, for starters).

Thoughts?

Right analysis, wrong conclusion.

You are built very similarly to me and I ride a 55 with a lot of seat post. Forget the standover thing. That's what modern seatposts are for. Focus on the TT. My advice is tweak and tinker with your existing bike to see if you can make it work. It may be the right size.

If he's using the same frame he has, but wants to get the handlebar rise he is looking for, then we're pretty much back to square one with the thread.

To hell with it. I'm getting a 'bent.




j/k

Now that makes a lot of sense! With the money you'd pay for a decent bent you can go get professionally fitted and buy a very comfortable bike with some money left over for some nice accessories. Trying to get fitted over the internet by a bunch of people who have never seen you and have a bazillion different ideas for fit is craziness. You might as well just guess at your fit. ;) If you are seriously wanting to do long distance rides, invest some time time and money to do it right.

Well, I didn't intend for this thread to become a fitting session, but it has helped me understand the factors involved.

Problem I have with "professional fitting" is that, when I read about this or that fitter's fit philosophy, they are all different. Seems like I could pay for several fittings and get different results for each based on the fitters' biases. Kind of like the internet.

As it is I think I have a "ballpark" that I can filter on as I search for a better fitting used bike. The success of my efforts will be judged on the basis of my results (and my satisfaction with them). Worst case, I sell the bike.

Am I serious about LD? I don't know yet. I've already said that. What I know is I want a more comfortable bike on longer rides, but I don't want it to be a slow pig or a "comfort bike." I knew that riders with LD experience would know just what I was talking about and steer me in the right direction, and you have.

Thanks again, everybody.

Problem I have with "professional fitting" is that, when I read about this or that fitter's fit philosophy, they are all different. Seems like I could pay for several fittings and get different results for each based on the fitters' biases.

I think this is a fantastic observation. The obsession with paying an "expert" to solve all your problems, as though bike fitters are some kind of gurus who mumble obscure incantations, raise your seat 2.3 mm, and suddenly add 4 MPH to your average speed, just really irritates me. I think an awful lot of folks on BF have spent hundreds of dollars on "fittings" and now feel the need to justify that waste of money to the rest of us.

A good bike fitter can get you into the neighborhood, assuming he is familiar with the type of riding you do. A bad bike fitter -- and there are LOTS of those around -- is useless at best. And the average human is smart enough to do some reading, ask some questions, and figure out what he needs to do. Frankly, I think the recommendations you got from "Competitive Cyclist" are perfectly sound.