Living Car Free - Changing & simplifying your life beyond "car-free", how did you get there?

I'm sorry, I'm not a great writer and English is my second language. I've been thinking a lot about simplifying my life, going car-free or extremely car-light and beyond, moving out of NYC to some quieter, calmer area, using my bike more. I'd also like to be closer to some great outdoors and in warmer, drier climate, I'm thinking Arizona here.

I already commute every day by bike and run some small errands, but I want to go few steps further.

It seems to me to be a logical and natural step for me: I'm fed up with commercialism, I don't watch TV, I hate commercials and marketing, I hate rush and crowds, I hate the overabundance of junk in my life, I hate shopping malls, there is just too much of everything around me, marketing running amok, I don't have desires to own fancy cars or a house, I don't care for fashion, my needs are quite basic, I can eat simple meals every day. I'll take a hike in the woods over a club or movie theater any time.

I'm longing for simpler life and more freedom. I have a decent IT job that keeps me here but if I simplified my life enough I could live off far less money. I'm tired of paying all these bills just to maintain a lifestyle that is required by the society, to be considered "normal". I've been slowly drifting away from it all over the last few years. Spending all my free time either at home or somewhere out of town hiking or biking.

So, I'm interested to hear from people who not only have gone car free but also simplified their lives and rejected most of the requirements of modern society.

It seems to me that Car Free Living covers several categories of living. It's not just one type of living. Then on top of "car free" living there are other layers: TV free, credit free, going green, sticking it to the Man, etc.

Here are are few that I can observe, I'm sure there are more. Of course, this is based on USA.

1) There are people who chose not to own a car, but they still maintain relative complexity of living with all the bells and whistles that modern economy offers them. They usually live in a large urban area where a lot of services are available within walking distance. In such case owning a car may even be kind of a nuisance and going car-free doesn't really require a lot of compromises and may even be more convenient. They may ride bikes for leisure or short errands only. Their commute times are usually short or they can use mass transit. Bad weather is not much of a problem for them. Going bike free here is often a no-brainer and no one cares that you don't own a car.

2) There are people who live in less dense suburbs or smaller towns, and they still maintain relative complexity of life. Fewer services are available within a walking distance, perhaps a supermarket, grocery store, etc. A car is helpful but not entirely necessary. Most shopping is still better done by car though, and such, they will require a tougher bike capable of carrying some cargo and generally would need to ride more and their commute times may be longer as well. They can still get many services and goods delivered, however, so they don't need to entirely depend on their bikes for transportation. Bad weather has stronger effect on this type of people. They generally still use most of the goodies that modern life has to offer. Going car free requires some planning and effort and changes to the lifestyle. You would be generally considered strange.

3) Rural residents. Everything is a few miles away. Lives are generally less complex that in urban areas. But most people would consider a car a necessity and you'd be perceived nuts if you try to do everything on a bike. Deliveries are not widely available or take time. Commute times are long, unless they work from home. They'd need to rely on bicycles most of the time and the weather will have very profound, often crippling effect on their ability to move around. Going car-free would require significant effort and planning.

4) People who are willing to move somewhere else to live car-free, far from dense centers of civilization and make significant changes to their lives to do that, they would give up significant chunks of their possessions and give up some bells and whistles that modern society and economy has to offer. These are usually people tired of living in a hurry, wanting to go green, live healthier lives, etc.

5) People who chose nomadic life on a bike, moving from town to town, touring, living on the road. These are the ones who left everything behind, gave up all their possessions in exchange for total freedom. This either caused by the profound curiosity and desire to travel and see the world and/or the need to break away from modern life and all the stress and anxiety associated with it.

I'm in #2 right now and I'd like to be in #4.

What motivates each group? Except for #1 each requires effort, planning and changes to lifestyle.

Which group do you fall in?
How hard was it for you to get there?
How long did it take?
Did you achieve what you wanted?
Did you ever regret what you have done?
What are the benefits you see now?
Would you do anything in a different way if you were to do this again?

Cheers!

Adam

Adam, It's great that you are thinking about these things! There is lot to think about there, and I can't really address much of it from experience, but it made me think of a book you may find interesting. We tend to think of rural living as "greener", but the truth is probably the opposite. For a great discussion of this topic, read this book (http://www.amazon.com/Green-Metropolis-Smaller-Driving-Sustainability/dp/1594488827).

I don't have the time now to respond properly, but I have a quick question for Adam. What do you consider to be a "dense center" or a less dense area?

I think perhaps you are mistaking urban for complicated, and rural for simple. It isn't that easy.

It's early March. We're having what I hope is an early thaw here in Wisconsin. (please oh please let it be a real thaw) Normally, the last frost date is Memorial Day, so May 31. For a wide range of food crops, that is the earliest date it's safe to plant them outside in this climate. To grow many fruits and vegetables, you start them indoors, or you don't eat them. Period. We're far enough north that you can't readily do that off natural light. That means grow lamps, or other technological methods to get enough light and heat. And it has to be the right *kind* of light.

If the thaw we're having is real, it means that farmers can use cold frames or hoop houses to get plants started outside, but in a protected environment. It's still pretty high tech. You *must* know the light cycle the plant needs to develop, and the soil temperatures. If you go off sheer guesswork, mostly, the plants die.

Getting food to grow in this climate is a ***** of a problem. Arizona is also a *****, tho in the opposite direction. There, you're fighting against the heat and dry of a desert... and an ecosystem where every animal, plant and microbe will go after whatever water you use. A lot of people look at me funny for knowing all this stuff. But I *like* my food to taste good. That means understanding how it grows, so I can tell which farmers actually know their job. I don't eat much out of season food. Summers can get pretty meatless. You don't slaughter your excess male calves and pigs until fall, so if you're eating meat through the summer, it's because you haven't eaten up what's in the freezer. Chickens you can be more flexible. Fruit is an incredible treat. Some of my favorite fruits are in season for only a week or two every year.

There's no deadline quite like lambing season or calving season too. And I am *so* glad I'm an urban sort of creature, and can *choose* not to deal with it all.

For me a dense area is where you have at least 6-story apartment buildings everywhere, no houses, everything is high-rise, residential is mixed with commercial, ground floors are usually shops, traffic during rush hour is bumper-to-bumper, less than 5mph, unsafe for bikes. Less dense is where there are no buildings taller than a few floors and majority are residential houses, commercial shops are clumped into small malls and strip-malls mainly, no rush-hour gridlock, traffic flows at least at steady 15mph during that time, safer for bikes. Of course, this is my perception, nothing too scientific :D

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about these things for the last few months. I think I was living my life the wrong way trying to comply, to fit it. Thanks for the link.


I think perhaps you are mistaking urban for complicated, and rural for simple. It isn't that easy.

I know it's more complex than that. What I said in the OP were my perceptions. That's why I wanted to hear some opinions. Not all urban areas are bad and crazy like NYC, I bet. I want more fuel for thinking.

Adam

Not all urban areas are bad and crazy like NYC, I bet. I want more fuel for thinking.

Adam

Seriously, check out that book. He points out that if New York city was our 51st state, it would be the state with by far the smallest carbon footprint per capita. It doesn't necessarily address the quality of life issues that you are also clearly thinking about, but it's unlikely you'll be truly greener by objective measures living anywhere else, at least in the United States.

Adam, It's great that you are thinking about these things! There is lot to think about there, and I can't really address much of it from experience, but it made me think of a book you may find interesting. We tend to think of rural living as "greener", but the truth is probably the opposite. For a great discussion of this topic, read this book (http://www.amazon.com/Green-Metropolis-Smaller-Driving-Sustainability/dp/1594488827).

I strongly disagree.

High density urban life is a product of the post-inustrial oil dependent society. One of the greenest communities right now are the Amish, and they are successful in part because they're an agrian society. Their shunning of modern technology is self imposed, but once our oil party is over it will be unwillingly imposed on all of us. The Amish could not survive at their level of technology, and neither could we, in a high density urban setting. I suspect that the current trend in thinking that ultra-high density urban living is a 'green' or 'sustainable' lifestyle is more fashion than fact.

For me a dense area is where you have at least 6-story apartment buildings everywhere, no houses, everything is high-rise, residential is mixed with commercial, ground floors are usually shops, traffic during rush hour is bumper-to-bumper, less than 5mph, unsafe for bikes. Less dense is where there are no buildings taller than a few floors and majority are residential houses, commercial shops are clumped into small malls and strip-malls mainly, no rush-hour gridlock, traffic flows at least at steady 15mph during that time, safer for bikes. Of course, this is my perception, nothing too scientific :D

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about these things for the last few months. I think I was living my life the wrong way trying to comply, to fit it. Thanks for the link.



I know it's more complex than that. What I said in the OP were my perceptions. That's why I wanted to hear some opinions. Not all urban areas are bad and crazy like NYC, I bet. I want more fuel for thinking.

Adam

Adam,
Lots of options depending on what you want and what you can get for work. I prefer small towns ~8,000-15,000 range is good. If you pick older ones they are quite often still laid out on a grid with shopping out on the edges. Some are fortunate enough to still have bus and rail service, others not so fortunate. They are all over the country by the thousands. Some are better than others.

Another possibility is some of the first or second ring suburbs of a larger city, so called street car suburbs. Prime example to me would be some of the ones outside Minneapolis, like Roseville, St. Anthony or New Brighton.

For research start with City Data (http://www.city-data.com/). It can give you a decent idea of what the town profile is like, crime, housing, etc. Then follow up with weather history to find what suits you.

Aaron :)

I'm longing for simpler life and more freedom. I have a decent IT job that keeps me here but if I simplified my life enough I could live off far less money. I'm tired of paying all these bills just to maintain a lifestyle that is required by the society, to be considered "normal". I've been slowly drifting away from it all over the last few years. Spending all my free time either at home or somewhere out of town hiking or biking.

Adam, like a lot of people, you seem to see a solution to your problem by moving locations. I'd argue you are likely to bring the root of the problem along with you... which is yourself! I believe it's possible to achiever a "simpler" life without all the stress of moving, finding new friends, new community.

Are you even sure a "simpler" life is what you are looking for? I'd argue you would be more satisfied with a "happier" where you were able to share and grow in a community. That community could be an extended family, a group of friends, a bunch of volunteers doing something on a Saturday morning, maybe something with church (don't ask me why I don't know this one...).

I'd say forget simple. Simple will happen without any conscious effort. Instead look for opportunities for sharing and giving. If you find the right niche, your life will become much simpler.

I'm longing for ... more freedom.
What you probably mean by freedom is spending less time working for wages in the money economy.

Best solution: choose parents wisely and inherit a hundred million bucks or so early in life.

Next best solution: make a living at something you really love to do, so that it feels like getting paid for doing your hobby. (Been there, done that.)

Otherwise, great personal freedom generally can't be achieved with a partner who doesn't have the same desire, minor children, a mortgage, a medical condition which requires continuous health insurance, a challenging commute situation, or big credit card debt.

All other things being equal, less employment means lots less income. Less income means inconvenience, less comfort and much lower social status. But you implied you're willing to do that. The payoff is that more of the irreplaceable hours of your life belong to you alone.

Cut your living expenses to the minimum. The first economizations are easy, but soon you will be looking at some serious life restructuring. Especially confronting your own entitlement issues. When you reach that point you'll know what I'm talking about. What will you do when you get a bad toothache, for example?

Get some kind of income that covers your basic expenses. If you're an older person it might be income from retirement investments. If you're a younger person it might be income from work that you enjoy.

Use knowhow, improvisation, moxie, gumption and/or philosophical resignation to make up for the rest of the missing income. Yep, I mean frugal stuff like patching clothes or living with minimum heat/air conditioning.

Earlier today, my partner and I sang this old song together -

Well we ain't got a barrel of money...
We may look ragged and funny...
But we're travelin' on...
Singing our song...
Side by side.

Adam, I can feel your pain; I decided 30 years ago to forgo the 'rat-race', being more interested in the 'quality time' in my life rather than just hustling to pay for all the doo-dads I didn't really need, I formed the philosophy of 'making enough to get by and take care of me and mine'.

Sometimes, nowadays, I regret it, mainly because there are some necessaries that have been forced on us all.

First thing, though -- no categories. I refuse to be put in a category.

I've been car-free for five years. I don't miss the car, and can haul just about anything I need to on the bike. I'm also working on getting to the point where all my furniture will be light enough to just 'toss around'. (Example: bamboo or wicker patio furniture for the living room; I already switched to an airbed.)
I have a cell phone, with a minimum pre-paid plan, that costs me about the same as what a basic landline did 15 years ago. I'm in touch with whoever I need to be, for cheap.
I do have a TV, but I couldn't tell you anything about most of the current line-ups on networks OR cable. I enjoy watching WWE, NCIS, and the syndicated court shows (people are so stupid, it's funny). Otherwise, ptaaah........
I have a cheap wardrobe; the only 'designer' stuff in it is what's been given to me. When I see $90 for a pair of shoes, $60 for a shirt, I just shake my head....

I don't know if this will help you or not. Depends on what you mean as free? I'm pretty free but there are people more freer than I am. I'm single. I live by myself. My family helps out with the bills but they own the house that I live in. I've have the blessing of having a good mom. Anyway, I defaulted on all my credit cards. I quit my job. Now I'm on food stamps. I do work once per week to maintain the food stamps so it's not like I'm getting something for nothing. I'm essentially, a Govt employee now but they pay me in food. hahahaha. Anyway, I can do whatever I want everyday except the day that I have to work for 6 hrs. That's pretty free don't you think? Now, if you have a lot more money, you could move out in the country and maybe be even freer than I am. I've heard of people moving out in the country, buying one of those windmills that generate electricity and running their household appliances on the electricity generated by it.

I'm surprised more people aren't doing this actually. With enough money, you could retire in your 30s easily. Buy a solar room, a windmill, some lithium batteries and use the windmill to replenish the lithium batteries. The lithium batteries last 7 yrs or more. Use the lithium batteries to run your appliance. Bingo, you are nearly self-sufficient. You just need to find a way to pay for food. Maybe work once per week somewhere. Ride your bike to work so you don't end up spending all your money on a car. There you go. That's probably as free as you could get.

Most of the New Yorkers I know are car-free tho :). And they live pretty simply.

It sounds to me as if the main thing that's upsetting you about life in NYC is that it's bike hostile. And well, yah. It's also even more car hostile. Most of the dense parts of NYC are built for pedestrians. From a New Yorker's point of view, a bike is about on par with a pickup truck in terms of increasing what they can do for cargo hauling and distance. New York is high on the list of cities I love because it is so pedestrian friendly. I like to walk.

There really aren't any places in the US where your dream of 15mph, no gridlock and safe for bikes happens at rush hour. You're gonna lose out on at least one, unless you're so far out into rural areas that the nearest people are many miles away. And I do mean many. If there are people within my idea of walking distance (7-10 miles), they're probably too close. If you want the 15mph, there are lots of places where that can happen. Safe for bikes... that depends on what you think of as safe. Portland has a lot of bike riders compared to Madison, but it's also got an astronomic theft rate, and a lot of very cranky suburban drivers. When I visit my sister there, I'm a lot happier walking. The streets tend to be laid out for drag races til you get downtown. Madison isn't perfect mind :). But a lot of the city is fairly narrow streets. It tends to keep through traffic out. Theft rate is relatively low. And so far I've never had a Madison driver intentionally try to run me off the road.

The other posters are right that moving will not make you happy by itself.

Something you might want to consider is that NYC's train system makes the countryside pretty accessible to you with a bike. With a folding bike and an Amtrak station, you can get yourself to an awful lot of places that you couldn't readily get to by bike alone.

I'm sorry, I'm not a great writer and English is my second language. I've been thinking a lot about simplifying my life, going car-free or extremely car-light and beyond, moving out of NYC to some quieter, calmer area, using my bike more. I'd also like to be closer to some great outdoors and in warmer, drier climate, I'm thinking Arizona here.

I already commute every day by bike and run some small errands, but I want to go few steps further.

It seems to me to be a logical and natural step for me: I'm fed up with commercialism, I don't watch TV, I hate commercials and marketing, I hate rush and crowds, I hate the overabundance of junk in my life, I hate shopping malls, there is just too much of everything around me, marketing running amok, I don't have desires to own fancy cars or a house, I don't care for fashion, my needs are quite basic, I can eat simple meals every day. I'll take a hike in the woods over a club or movie theater any time.

I'm longing for simpler life and more freedom. I have a decent IT job that keeps me here but if I simplified my life enough I could live off far less money. I'm tired of paying all these bills just to maintain a lifestyle that is required by the society, to be considered "normal". I've been slowly drifting away from it all over the last few years. Spending all my free time either at home or somewhere out of town hiking or biking.

So, I'm interested to hear from people who not only have gone car free but also simplified their lives and rejected most of the requirements of modern society.

It seems to me that Car Free Living covers several categories of living. It's not just one type of living. Then on top of "car free" living there are other layers: TV free, credit free, going green, sticking it to the Man, etc.

Here are are few that I can observe, I'm sure there are more. Of course, this is based on USA.

1) There are people who chose not to own a car, but they still maintain relative complexity of living with all the bells and whistles that modern economy offers them. They usually live in a large urban area where a lot of services are available within walking distance. In such case owning a car may even be kind of a nuisance and going car-free doesn't really require a lot of compromises and may even be more convenient. They may ride bikes for leisure or short errands only. Their commute times are usually short or they can use mass transit. Bad weather is not much of a problem for them. Going bike free here is often a no-brainer and no one cares that you don't own a car.

2) There are people who live in less dense suburbs or smaller towns, and they still maintain relative complexity of life. Fewer services are available within a walking distance, perhaps a supermarket, grocery store, etc. A car is helpful but not entirely necessary. Most shopping is still better done by car though, and such, they will require a tougher bike capable of carrying some cargo and generally would need to ride more and their commute times may be longer as well. They can still get many services and goods delivered, however, so they don't need to entirely depend on their bikes for transportation. Bad weather has stronger effect on this type of people. They generally still use most of the goodies that modern life has to offer. Going car free requires some planning and effort and changes to the lifestyle. You would be generally considered strange.

3) Rural residents. Everything is a few miles away. Lives are generally less complex that in urban areas. But most people would consider a car a necessity and you'd be perceived nuts if you try to do everything on a bike. Deliveries are not widely available or take time. Commute times are long, unless they work from home. They'd need to rely on bicycles most of the time and the weather will have very profound, often crippling effect on their ability to move around. Going car-free would require significant effort and planning.

4) People who are willing to move somewhere else to live car-free, far from dense centers of civilization and make significant changes to their lives to do that, they would give up significant chunks of their possessions and give up some bells and whistles that modern society and economy has to offer. These are usually people tired of living in a hurry, wanting to go green, live healthier lives, etc.

5) People who chose nomadic life on a bike, moving from town to town, touring, living on the road. These are the ones who left everything behind, gave up all their possessions in exchange for total freedom. This either caused by the profound curiosity and desire to travel and see the world and/or the need to break away from modern life and all the stress and anxiety associated with it.

I'm in #2 right now and I'd like to be in #4.

What motivates each group? Except for #1 each requires effort, planning and changes to lifestyle.

Which group do you fall in?
How hard was it for you to get there?
How long did it take?
Did you achieve what you wanted?
Did you ever regret what you have done?
What are the benefits you see now?
Would you do anything in a different way if you were to do this again?

Cheers!

Adam

Adam, I am not car free but I am more a number 4 car lite.
While moving might not be right for some it isn’t a bad idea if you are looking at getting out of the rat race. Northern Arizona has a lot of small towns that are far more pleasant to live in than where you are now. It is also a lot more bike friendly because if you find a place you like you can cycle almost all year long without the aid of studded tires. I personally like the whole 4 corner state area. Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah have small cities or towns that provide much of what you seem to be looking for. I considered moving to New Mexico myself although I escaped the big city many years ago. The thing about the states I mentioned is you can live just outside of some of the bigger cities if you want and be more by yourself yet have full access to the city of you so choose. And many of them are far more bi friendly. Bolder Colorado come to mind.
Like you have indicated multiple storied apartment living is a lot like living in a Pigeon hutch, high density. The stress of having to get along with neighbors you may or may not like can be wearing, even if many urban dwellers seem to thrive on it, some of us simply do not. Places like Santa Fe and the cities surrounding have a lot more open spaces and far fewer stacked housing.
If you look on the net for great affordable places to live you will see most of them are places with 50,000 people or less. So you are not off base in your quest. The bigger consideration is how will you afford to move? Why didn’t I move to those places? Because my house is paid for, my car is paid for, I have not credit debt and I live in a small town of 50,000 or less with lots of places to ride. Not to mention the stress free feeling of parking your bike somewhere with just a cable lock and coming back to find it where you left it. At least that has been my experience for the last 2 and a half years.

I suspect that the current trend in thinking that ultra-high density urban living is a 'green' or 'sustainable' lifestyle is more fashion than fact.
Here's a report (http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=brookings+institute+study+carbon+footprint+urban+rural&btnG=Google+Search) from the Brookings institute that says it is more fact than fashion. Give me some data that suggests otherwise.

I won't argue that it is impossible to live green in the countryside, just that it will take you much more work. While it is generally true that the Amish don't allow themselves to operate internal combustion engines (some make exceptions) they do hire cars to make trips for groceries, and have no prohibition on using public transportation. I don't have numbers for you, but it seems likely that a poorly insulated Amish farmhouse heated by wood, coal, or kerosene is unlikely to have a smaller carbon footprint than a well insulated apartment in New York. Furthermore, non-carbon pollutants such as sulfides and particulates are likely to be much greater when using a wood or coal stove than they are from the electricity grid. The Amish also eat meat, and some of them use pesticides and herbicides. They can't produce everything on the farm, and order lots of stuff from catalogs. Vehicles then drive these things out into the countryside in a very inefficient supply chain. Contrast that to the supply chains that the urban dweller sits at the end of. The delivery guy has access to way many more people per unit area. The Amish are probably greener than me, but if you chose to make the same level of sacrifice that they do, I think you can live greener in the city.

#5 seems like alot of fun, would be good for every human being if they could all do that for a year of their lives... i think people would be better humans

Adam, I am a number 2 car lite. We chose a suburb with a bike-able commute to my job. We moved here because of the job. We though about living in the city, but school systems and access to natural areas for the kids were a factor. Life is full of compromises, and I am reasonably happy with the ones I have made. Smaller cities set in rural surroundings have a lot to offer. Local organic vegetables, community supported agriculture, plus museums and access to cultural events. You might also want to think about your ability to effect change outside of your own life by becoming involved locally with thing like food co-ops, bike co-ops, and town planning initiatives. This is much harder to do if you are out in the middle of nowhere.

Let's focus less on going green, and more on simplifying. Going gree would be secondary or tertiary goal. I'm interested in gettind rid of clutter in my life, getting more time for myself, living calmer life.

I'm 43, married no kids, no mortgage, some credit car bills, car payments (I'm on track to get rid of all my debt by 2012). My wife thinks a lot like I do, her requirements are minimal too, for a woman. We could probably make it work. So I don't have some of the major obstacles mentioned above.


Adam, like a lot of people, you seem to see a solution to your problem by moving locations. I'd argue you are likely to bring the root of the problem along with you... which is yourself! I believe it's possible to achiever a "simpler" life without all the stress of moving, finding new friends, new community.

Of course, the problem is "me". But I still believe if I plant "me" into a different environment, it may be a happier "me". We had very few friends an they alreay moved out of NYC. Our requirements for social contacts are minimal too, partially because we find it hard to find like-minded people. We don't like going out and drinking, we prefer small gathering at home. We're not into sports, we'd rather watch a movie at home or read books.

So "me" isn't happy where it is right now. I'm surrounded by tens of city blocks with minimum greenery, the nearest park is always crowded, wife is afraid to ride on the streets. It would take two-three hours of riding to ride out of NYC on bikes, so it's generally impractical. That's one of the main reasons we have a car, so we can get away on weekends. If we leave before 8am on Sat we can be out in secluded woods in 1-2 hours. But that's still means a special trip to get out.

I'd like to be able to bike out from home without having to pack my bikes into a car. Queens, like Manhattan, is an island. To go anywhere nice you have to cross at least one crowded bridge, often more. All it takes is one accident and the 1-hour getaway becomes 2-3 hour nightmare in traffic. Can you see that my environment is not serving me well? I've become depressed. If I don't see open space for weeks I get almost sick, I need at least to go to an ocean beach to feast my eyes on the open sea. I can't function in a place where I can't see a horizon. This become clear to me over the last few years.


What you probably mean by freedom is spending less time working for wages in the money economy.

Yes, of course that's it. Americans love ot speak about freedom but when you ask them "are you free, can go whenever you wish, wherever you wish?" they get silly look on their faces. Most people associate freedom with being able to buy whatever they want an say whatever they want. To me freedom is the ability to move around freely and I don't have that. I'm restrained by working hours and the transportation problems I mentioned above.

I like my job. I don't enjoy it as much as I I used to due to some restructuring that's taking place, but it's still not bad. But for many years it was almost like getting paid for doing my hobby. By my interests switched lately from computers to photography. I'd like to be able to spend more time with my camera outdoors. And again, getting out of New York is a problem as main interest is wildlife photography. I need to rive far, 2-3 hours, to get away from weekend crowds so I can have a chance of finding some alive animals. I'm trying to get my employer to allow me to work more hours Mon-Thu so I can have Fridays off, but the chances are small.



If you look on the net for great affordable places to live you will see most of them are places with 50,000 people or less. So you are not off base in your quest. The bigger consideration is how will you afford to move? Why didn’t I move to those places? Because my house is paid for, my car is paid for, I have not credit debt and I live in a small town of 50,000 or less with lots of places to ride. Not to mention the stress free feeling of parking your bike somewhere with just a cable lock and coming back to find it where you left it. At least that has been my experience for the last 2 and a half years.

Moving itself won't be a big deal. Besides my computers, bikes, our clothing an some decoractions all our furniture is cheap, disposable IKEA stuff. It would cost me more to transport it than buy new one. So we could move probably just in our minivan with a Uhaul trailer.

So generally speaking I'm looking for less stress, simpler life, less crowds, being closer to outdoors. In Spring we'll go through some major Spring Cleaninig. We'll sell some stuff and just toss a lot of junk that accumulated in our closets. We'll have a yard sale perhaps. I'm hoping to purge at least 25% of the contents of the apartment.

I've been looking in Arizona's direction for few reasons: dry climate, perhaps too dry, but I'm tired of 90F/90% summers, shorter and milder winters, there are job opportunities at Universities there (I work for a university right now and I'd like to stick to academic environment), lower cost of living and I heard some towns are really nice and it's great for biking and hiking.

Thanks to all for posting. Looking forward to more.

Let's focus less on going green, and more on simplifying. Going green would be secondary or tertiary goal. I'm interested in getting rid of clutter in my life, getting more time for myself, living calmer life.

I'm 43, (yes, maybe it's the midlife crisis, but I started to feel that time isn't stopping more than ever before) married no kids, no mortgage, some credit car bills, car payments (I'm on track to get rid of all my debt by 2012). My wife thinks a lot like I do, her requirements are minimal too, for a woman. We could probably make it work. So I don't have some of the major obstacles mentioned above.


Adam, like a lot of people, you seem to see a solution to your problem by moving locations. I'd argue you are likely to bring the root of the problem along with you... which is yourself! I believe it's possible to achiever a "simpler" life without all the stress of moving, finding new friends, new community.

Of course, the problem is "me". But I still believe if I plant "me" into a different environment, it may be a happier "me". We had very few friends an they already moved out of NYC. Our requirements for social contacts are minimal too, partially because we find it hard to find like-minded people. We don't like going out and drinking, we prefer small gathering at home. We're not into sports, we'd rather watch a movie at home or read books.

So "me" isn't happy where it is right now. I'm surrounded by tens of city blocks with minimum greenery, the nearest park is always crowded, wife is afraid to ride on the streets. It would take two-three hours of riding to ride out of NYC on bikes, so it's generally impractical. That's one of the main reasons we have a car, so we can get away on weekends. If we leave before 8am on Sat we can be out in secluded woods in 1-2 hours. But that's still means a special trip to get out.

I'd like to be able to bike out from home without having to pack my bikes into a car. Queens, like Manhattan, is an island. To go anywhere nice you have to cross at least one crowded bridge, often more. All it takes is one accident and the 1-hour getaway becomes 2-3 hour nightmare in traffic. Can you see that my environment is not serving me well? I've become depressed. If I don't see open space for weeks I get almost sick, I need at least to go to an ocean beach to feast my eyes on the open sea. I can't function in a place where I can't see a horizon. This become clear to me over the last few years.


What you probably mean by freedom is spending less time working for wages in the money economy.

Yes, of course that's it. Americans love to speak about freedom but when you ask them "are you free, can you go whenever you wish, wherever you wish?" they get silly look on their faces. Most people associate freedom with being able to buy whatever they want an say whatever they want. To me freedom is the ability to move around freely and I don't have that. I'm restrained by working hours and the transportation problems I mentioned above.

I like my job. I don't enjoy it as much as I used to due to some restructuring that's taking place, but it's still not bad. But for many years it was almost like getting paid for doing my hobby. By my interests switched lately from computers to photography. I'd like to be able to spend more time with my camera outdoors. And again, getting out of New York is a problem as my main interest is wildlife photography. I need to drive far, 2-3 hours, to get away from weekend crowds so I can have a chance of finding some alive animals. I'm trying to get my employer to allow me to work more hours Mon-Thu so I can have Fridays off, but the chances are small.



If you look on the net for great affordable places to live you will see most of them are places with 50,000 people or less. So you are not off base in your quest. The bigger consideration is how will you afford to move? Why didn’t I move to those places? Because my house is paid for, my car is paid for, I have not credit debt and I live in a small town of 50,000 or less with lots of places to ride. Not to mention the stress free feeling of parking your bike somewhere with just a cable lock and coming back to find it where you left it. At least that has been my experience for the last 2 and a half years.

Moving itself won't be a big deal. Besides my computers, bikes, our clothing an some decorations all our furniture is cheap, disposable IKEA stuff. It would cost me more to transport it than buy new one. So we could move probably just in our minivan with a Uhaul trailer.

So generally speaking I'm looking for less stress, simpler life, less crowds, being closer to outdoors. So both of us could ride bikes more. My wife wouldn't mind doing grocery shopping by bike but she's scared to ride on the streets plus the bike security is a problem.

In Spring we'll go through some major Spring Cleaning. We'll sell some stuff and just toss a lot of junk that accumulated in our closets. We'll have a yard sale perhaps. I'm hoping to purge at least 25% of the contents of the apartment.

I've been looking in Arizona's direction for few reasons: dry climate, perhaps too dry, but I'm tired of 90F/90% summers, shorter and milder winters, there are job opportunities at Universities there (I work for a university right now and I'd like to stick to academic environment), lower cost of living and I heard some towns are really nice and it's great for biking and hiking.

Thanks to all for posting. Looking forward to more.

Good question.

I think I'm a 1.5.

I live in a city of 170,000, there is a small central area but most of it is pretty spread out. My work is about 10 miles away. I chose my apartment carefully, so I live in a little valley that has just about all the services you'd need, and there are much more over the hills to the south. Maybe a 10 minute ride. 15 minutes to the north, I can connect into a lot of recreation riding locations.

Being the capitol city, there is all the bright light you could wish for. But bye in large the whole tempo of life is a little more calm and friendly than in the urban mega-centers. So it's a good balance. I do wish there were a few more bookstores though.

And it helps that we do not have the economic and water problems of states like California and Arizona, though we are a bit wetter and had two snow storms this winter. Who knows, you might like Arkansas.

I keep it simple first by living in a small apartment and choosing the right neighborhood. My life is work and quiet weekends, punctuated with work for the local bicycle advocacy groups. I'm not credit-free, but I am debt-free.

The one thing that I don't see in your descriptions of locations is other people. The quality and nature of relationships changes as you scale up or down. Very rural places may be very closed societies, where a newcomer is the fellow who moved to town only 20 years ago.

In towns of 10-50 thousand people you may get the "tiny little town" syndrome where as you meet people, everyone you know, knows someone else you know. You have no secrets, but at the same time, you can go into a crowd of strangers and probably get to talking comfortably very quickly about common friends and activities.

In bigger towns like Little Rock, its less so, but within groups, artists, bicyclists etc, the same network exists. A good example is that in 40 years in California, I never came near a Governor. In 4 years in Little Rock, I've met 4 and gotten to know one well.

I think that larger urban places are what tend to leave you feeling lonely. So many people that except in your little clique that you know, it's just a mass of humanity.

Have you checked out Texas? It's got universities, a strong economy and good cost of living. TAMU at College Station wouldn't be too metropolitan.

I don't know much about Arkansas and Texas. I'd have to do some reading. I was focusing more on Arizona and Colorado, but since I'm looking for milder winters AZ seems like a better place. I'll be reading and researching more now since I kind of made up my mind and I'm thinking of setting myself a 2-year deadline to get out of NYC.

Yes, I know that small communities are very closed to newcomers. But for me anything less than a million people seems small right now:) I grew up in a town of 60,000 people and that was about right.

Adam

Here's a report (http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=brookings+institute+study+carbon+footprint+urban+rural&btnG=Google+Search) from the Brookings institute that says it is more fact than fashion. Give me some data that suggests otherwise.

I won't argue that it is impossible to live green in the countryside, just that it will take you much more work. While it is generally true that the Amish don't allow themselves to operate internal combustion engines (some make exceptions) they do hire cars to make trips for groceries, and have no prohibition on using public transportation. I don't have numbers for you, but it seems likely that a poorly insulated Amish farmhouse heated by wood, coal, or kerosene is unlikely to have a smaller carbon footprint than a well insulated apartment in New York. Furthermore, non-carbon pollutants such as sulfides and particulates are likely to be much greater when using a wood or coal stove than they are from the electricity grid. The Amish also eat meat, and some of them use pesticides and herbicides. They can't produce everything on the farm, and order lots of stuff from catalogs. Vehicles then drive these things out into the countryside in a very inefficient supply chain. Contrast that to the supply chains that the urban dweller sits at the end of. The delivery guy has access to way many more people per unit area. The Amish are probably greener than me, but if you chose to make the same level of sacrifice that they do, I think you can live greener in the city.



Adam wasn't looking just at green I don’t think, but even there big cities have both political and scientific opposition as to being all that green. One is mentioned in an article in a paper close to him. http://www.ccap.org/docs/news/258/NYT%20Big%20cities%20feel%20ignored%207-28-09.pdf (http://www.ccap.org/docs/news/258/NYT%20Big%20cities%20feel%20ignored%207-28-09.pdf)
The other is from a more scientific standpoint. http://www.actionbioscience.org/environment/voogt.html (http://www.actionbioscience.org/environment/voogt.html)
This isn’t a new concept and several environmental groups have expressed concerns about it over the years.
The key is the hustle and bustle of most major urban centers brings on its own stress. The pace in the places he has expressed interest is indeed quite a bit slower and if he has university connections it would make a great way of simplifying his life and increasing his cycling pleasure at the same time.

Correct, as I said above "Going green would be secondary or tertiary goal. I'm interested in getting rid of clutter in my life, getting more time for myself, living calmer life."

Going green would be nice, but my #1 priority is to find a way of living simpler, less stressful life, closer to nature where I could embrace cycling lifestyle and live a bit further away from the urban noise and crowds, but not necessarily in a hut in the woods :D I think just by riding a bike more, buying less, creating less trash I'd be already living greener. So IMHO green living will kind of automatically follow, but it's not the main priority.

Adam

Just from my perspective only I think you are leaning in the right direction. Being bike friendly has a very big positive effect on my attitude. I have become a cycling enthusiast more than an anti car person so I consider cycling almost therapeutic in its ability to relieve stress. I moved from a resort community to a modified farming, dairy and orchard community. Modified in that it has a main street with a mall but it also has miles of reasonable roads that are relatively traffic soft. It is connected t several other small cities or townships that make for interesting ride destinations on the weekends. I managed to put in close to 8,000 miles on my bicycle last year and visited several places you might be interested in. When on vacation I take one of my bikes and check out the city to see how bike friendly in might be. But I will stress once again the biggest plus to moving to a university town in Arizona is you can cycle most of the year without ever having to put studded tires on your bike.

I'm 43, married no kids, no mortgage, some credit car bills, car payments (I'm on track to get rid of all my debt by 2012). My wife thinks a lot like I do...

I like my job....for many years it was almost like getting paid for doing my hobby...my interests switched lately from computers to photography...

...I work for a university right now...

Early 40's, plenty of energy, probably years of professional computer experience, general dissatisfaction with being an employee but still inclined to work, no weighty financial obligations, supportive mate, hmm hmm

All the signs point to one thing --> time to go into business for yourself. If it's Internet based, you can run it on a colo server. Start it as a hobby and see if it grows into something worthwhile. Administer it remotely from a cell phone, and you can live anywhere you want.

I achieved a lot of personal freedom by being part owner of a hi-tech business in the 90s. It was an enormous amount of work and responsibility, though. If I were to do it again in the Internet era, I'd make it as virtual as possible and not get tied down to a physical operation with offices, factory and employees.

Early 40's, plenty of energy, probably years of professional computer experience, general dissatisfaction with being an employee but still inclined to work, no weighty financial obligations, supportive mate, hmm hmm

All the signs point to one thing --> time to go into business for yourself. If it's Internet based, you can run it on a colo server. Start it as a hobby and see if it grows into something worthwhile. Administer it remotely from a cell phone, and you can live anywhere you want. [...]

I've been thinking. Location independent income, ha! I'm not a programmer or high level IT, my degree is in systems management not computer science an most of the time I've been doing tech support work combined with maintaining some small servers an services. Only in last two years I've been involved with so called desktop engineering where we develop software an system distributions.

I started my computer "career" late in life. So I don't have any killer skills. An I have zero business skills. Anything I could offer is already out there, I'd have hard time making it happen, but I'm still thinking and researching possibilities, I need to find an angle. I was thinking about doing some more serious photography, but most money is in stock photo an that conflicts with my feelings: dislike of advertising. I'd have to shoot what I don't enjoy. Now I'm thinking about shooting cycling. I know one guy who made a killing by shooting urban skateboarders. But that requires more investment in time. I'd need to hook up with some BMX'ers maybe, shoot some stunts, etc.

I'll try seriously approaching my boss about a four day workweek...
/crossing fingers.


Just from my perspective only I think you are leaning in the right direction. Being bike friendly has a very big positive effect on my attitude. I have become a cycling enthusiast more than an anti car person so I consider cycling almost therapeutic in its ability to relieve stress.[...]

Yes, I don't have a huge problem with owning a car if it's used with responsibility. What bothers me is that cars rule people's lives in USA. When I ride my bike to work I pass a lot of cars an majority have one person inside. So that's a city block worth of traffic that carries less than 20 people maybe... at 5 mph. That's idiotic. I think people would be a lot happier, less stressed, there would be much less hostility if they rode bikes instead of driving. Driving in traffic makes most people mad.

...Anything I could offer is already out there...I need to find an angle...
Dare to be weird. Start with some offbeat idea like bicycle based wildlife photography. Make it interesting, put it out there, keep it fresh and see what happens. You want to do it on a hobby basis at first, of course. The good thing about expecting few hits is web pages are real cheap. What you want to do is not to make a specific sale, but to get in touch with individuals who are interested in what you do and who have the power to create a lucky break for you.

Some weird business ideas don't work out. Some do. The oddest product idea I ever had made my partners laugh when I proposed it and I had to assure them it was not a joke. Three years later we had a competitor copy the idea and it was my turn to have a good laugh.

The deal with personal freedom is that it starts in your own mind. If you think conventionally, you must live conventionally.

Dare to be weird. Start with some offbeat idea like bicycle based wildlife photography. Make it interesting, put it out there, keep it fresh and see what happens. You want to do it on a hobby basis at first, of course. The good thing about expecting few hits is web pages are real cheap. What you want to do is not to make a specific sale, but to get in touch with individuals who are interested in what you do and who have the power to create a lucky break for you.

Some weird business ideas don't work out. Some do. The oddest product idea I ever had made my partners laugh when I proposed it and I had to assure them it was not a joke. Three years later we had a competitor copy the idea and it was my turn to have a good laugh.

The deal with personal freedom is that it starts in your own mind. If you think conventionally, you must live conventionally.

It's a paradigm shift that will take some time, but I see what you mean. These are some great thoughts here. I already run a couple of sites, mostly for fun, but I am able to build one and know people who can help if I get stuck, it's the ideas that come hard. I'm not a great writer, I was thinking about finding some like-minded people and do something together. Lots of thinking ahead of me. LOL, the Soothing Desktop Images thing gave me about $8 in PayPal donations last month and it doesn't even come up in Google yet:)

Adam

It's a paradigm shift that will take some time, but I see what you mean. These are some great thoughts here. I already run a couple of sites, mostly for fun, but I am able to build one and know people who can help if I get stuck, it's the ideas that come hard. I'm not a great writer, I was thinking about finding some like-minded people and do something together. Lots of thinking ahead of me. LOL, the Soothing Desktop Images thing gave me about $8 in PayPal donations last month and it doesn't even come up in Google yet:)

Adam

You may want to brush up on your Search Engine Optimization skills.

Oh, I haven't checked in a few weeks, it does come up in Google now! I've run a small Adwords campaign and did all the optimizations using Google Webmaster Tools. I just don't think nature desktop backgrounds are tremendously lucrative :D

Adam

love this thread. I'd like to be a #4 on your list. Have been thinking about moving for a year now, both my husband and I are out of work so it's more possible now than it was when my spouse had a lucrative job he couldn't leave. I do own a 12-yr-old car that I have no intention of replacing when it dies, would like to be situated in an area where just about everything I need is within 10-20 miles of cycling. a small city of 50-80,000 sounds about right to me. I've given up on having a good climate (I can use a break from 25 years of New England winters but may not get it) and on other things too, but the must have for me is being able to ditch the car and use my bike to get around. We're currently in an area that's just a little too small for that. My town has a population of 2,000 people and the towns around us are all 9-10,000. The nearest city is about 40,000 but is 25 miles away making it a little too tough to get to a doctor appointment or the health food store via bike due to some unbikefriendly terrain. Just a little tweaking on the location would make a big difference to me. I'm currently active in our bike advocacy group hoping to make getting to and fro a little easier for cyclists and pedestrians so I do think things will get better here eventually. But still, it would be nice to relocate.

Adam, I moved from Astoria to here, and am still a train ride from the city, with access to all kinds of decent riding. If it weren't for two small children, car free would be reality for me (I do often pick my kids up on the bike, but I can't claim car freedom yet....)

You don't need such a drastic change as AZ to see a difference in the pacing of life. Connecticut can be a cool option. Come visit New Haven!

Yeah, I would have left years ago if it wasn't for the job. Pays well and the people are cool. If I ever lost it, I'll pack up in a blink of an aye and leave NYC. But I'd prefer if this happened in a more organized and prepared way :D

Adam

Adam, I moved from Astoria to here, and am still a train ride from the city, with access to all kinds of decent riding. If it weren't for two small children, car free would be reality for me (I do often pick my kids up on the bike, but I can't claim car freedom yet....)

You don't need such a drastic change as AZ to see a difference in the pacing of life. Connecticut can be a cool option. Come visit New Haven!

If I decide to move I'd like to move to a better climate: less humid and milder winters. I though, however, about moving to Westchester, PA is too far to commute, that would be already an improvement. I may actually do it if nothing else works out since it's a very realistic option: keep the job, pay less rent, lower insurance, commute 15 miles by bike is entirely possible.

Adam

i lived car free in new haven. it's possible, but still not optimal. also, kind of expensive, but there are probably work possibilities for you there, and great riding!

Most small cities are good for carfree living, IMO. If a city is only 8 or 10 miles across, you can easily cycle anywhere you want to within the city, and much of the surrounding countryside is also available by bike.

A city that is not near to another city will tend to have more cultural and recreational amenities. A university will also add benefits.

Simplify by cutting expenses. Just being carfree will enble you to work 4 days a week instead of 5--since the average American spends roughly 20 % of income on their automobile. Living in a smaller house or apartment will also save greatly.

Yeah, I would have left years ago if it wasn't for the job. Pays well and the people are cool. If I ever lost it, I'll pack up in a blink of an aye and leave NYC. But I'd prefer if this happened in a more organized and prepared way :D

Adam

Hmm.... I take it you are a coder and therefore you must realize how rare great jobs are. I sort of picture you roasting in some "mild winter" location where pay is lower and opportunities are rare.

Hmm.... I take it you are a coder and therefore you must realize how rare great jobs are. I sort of picture you roasting in some "mild winter" location where pay is lower and opportunities are rare.

No, I'm not a programmer: IT support and administration and there is a good number of jobs. Also,I'm working on getting some contacts at other universities. I'm friendly with many scientists and they may have helpful contacts.

I'm taking some time off next month to check out Tucson, AZ :)

A.

No, I'm not a programmer: IT support and administration and there is a good number of jobs. Also,I'm working on getting some contacts at other universities. I'm friendly with many scientists and they may have helpful contacts.

I'm taking some time off next month to check out Tucson, AZ :)

A.

Some things to consider. You don’t like the weather in New York. The weather in New York is never going to be any better than it is now. If you make contacts in a warmer area you can move before housing starts back up. If you prefer cycling you will have more months to cycle in a warmer climate. So if the job situation allows you to move you will have more years to enjoy a cycling lifestyle now than you will if you wait till you retire. But you should take some time to pick the right area.

I hope to be able to move in two years or less. I'd like to become debt-free, get rid of most junk in my life and save up some money before the move so I can take a long break between jobs and start over fresh, new furniture, etc. Also, my wife expressed interest in bike touring so perhaps we can go on a long trip before I start a new job. So she'll need a bike and some training too.

Adam

I hope to be able to move in two years or less. I'd like to become debt-free, get rid of most junk in my life and save up some money before the move so I can take a long break between jobs and start over fresh, new furniture, etc. Also, my wife expressed interest in bike touring so perhaps we can go on a long trip before I start a new job. So she'll need a bike and some training too.

Adam
Wow, that sounds great! I'm dying to hear what you end up doing, and how it turns out.

Most small cities are good for carfree living, IMO. If a city is only 8 or 10 miles across, you can easily cycle anywhere you want to within the city, and much of the surrounding countryside is also available by bike.

A city that is not near to another city will tend to have more cultural and recreational amenities. A university will also add benefits.

Simplify by cutting expenses. Just being carfree will enable you to work 4 days a week instead of 5--since the average American spends roughly 20 % of income on their automobile. Living in a smaller house or apartment will also save greatly.
This is great advice. I would also add that even in cities like this that have made little to no effort on bike-friendly infrastructure (cough cough *Albany* ahem cough cough) it is still true. Also, it may pay to think about what the area will look like in ten years. If it is rapidly sprawling and expanding, you could find yourself nicely located at first, with access to both the city and the countryside, and then ten years later be swallowed up by sprawl. I fear that somewhat where I am now, although I think it is even a greater risk in some of the more attractive "sunbelt" communities. If you can locate near preserved land you might be able to avoid this.

I'm pretty determined to do this. We'll sit down with my wife this weekend and start drafting our plans: we have some debt to pay off, need to save up some money. I hope to be able to do some side gigs to get some extra cash, my wife will pick up some extra work too. We've lived in a mental slump for the last few years: work-home-TV-games-sleep-work-home... This should give us the kick of energy we need to turn our lives around.

I think it all sounds pretty possible to do in two years, we should really be able to pull this off! My biggest problem was the barrier of fear of quitting my safe and steady job (15+ years) and moving, but I think I'm past that point. If we have enough savings to move, settle down comfortably and survive at least six months without having jobs, the transition should work. I'm pretty confident that I can find a job good enough to provide the simplified lifestyle we want. I know I need to do this for my own good. I want to live some better life before we retire. And by better, you know, I mean simpler, calmer, filled with cycling, hiking and photography. And I'm grateful that my wife is so supportive and wants to go along with this little dream of mine.

You guys have been great help and provided lots of inspiration and food for thought. I hope to keep this thread alive. Please keep posting your experiences. It'll help me tremendously and may help others too. I'm sure I'm not the only on in such situation. I'll certainly keep you folks updated when something significant happens during our quest!

Adam

I'm friendly with many scientists and they may have helpful contacts.
A long time ago I had the pleasure of spending a summer as an undergraduate research assistant at an oceanography field station in a very rural location. I spent every day that summer boating up and down a river setting out experiments and taking samples. Weekends, the student assistants would pile into an ancient white truck and go into a nearby small town for shopping and recreation.

The scientists there obtained the funding through grants. They lived nearby. They spent a lot of time travelling, of course, but in many ways they lived in the low stress, nature loving way you might enjoy. The field station also employed several local people in support capacities. I think the salaries were probably small but the people really enjoyed themselves.

A long time ago I had the pleasure of spending a summer as an undergraduate research assistant at an oceanography field station in a very rural location. I spent every day that summer boating up and down a river setting out experiments and taking samples. Weekends, the student assistants would pile into an ancient white truck and go into a nearby small town for shopping and recreation.

The scientists there obtained the funding through grants. They lived nearby. They spent a lot of time travelling, of course, but in many ways they lived in the low stress, nature loving way you might enjoy. The field station also employed several local people in support capacities. I think the salaries were probably small but the people really enjoyed themselves.

I've been to some places like that in Maine. I know what you mean :) Oh, and visited a few for a day in FL too. I just like being around scientists. Very interesting people and they appreciate your help with mundane computer stuff :D

Adam

My biggest problem was the barrier of fear of quitting my safe and steady job (15+ years) and moving, but I think I'm past that point.

In this day and age, no jobs are safe. :lol: I don't think I've ever had a job last more than 4 years.

You might also check into various automated animal tracking projects. For example at the National Forest Service or NOAA National Marine Fisheries. My old company provided some of the earliest automated animal tracking equipment. The deal with automated animal tracking is that every such project requires a (low paid) tech assistant to babysit and maintain the base station, which is usually a network of PC's and radio stuff, and lots of tinkering with data bases and such. I don't know of a central place to find those projects but your scientist friends could probably steer you in the right direction.

Also, IIRC, the American Museum of Natural History in NYC used to have a couple of research field stations, maybe they still do.

Doing IT work for a large private university is pretty safe, they have money and they need support. Scientists get used to good IT support people and don't want them go. Since they bring in the grant money they have the last say. You can't be let go just on whim of administration. Unless you screw up really badly you can spend you live here.

Adam

In this day and age, no jobs are safe. :lol: I don't think I've ever had a job last more than 4 years.
We're lucky if we find a company that lasts more than 4 years.

You might also check into various automated animal tracking projects. For example at the National Forest Service or NOAA National Marine Fisheries. My old company provided some of the earliest automated animal tracking equipment. The deal with automated animal tracking is that every such project requires a (low paid) tech assistant to babysit and maintain the base station, which is usually a network of PC's and radio stuff, and lots of tinkering with data bases and such. I don't know of a central place to find those projects but your scientist friends could probably steer you in the right direction.

Also, IIRC, the American Museum of Natural History in NYC used to have a couple of research field stations, maybe they still do.

That's something to keep in mind too. Although, like you said they may be low paid, but the again I may not need a top paid job and may be willing to compromise.

Adam