paulandyael
03-07-10, 10:48 PM
So, how much of a difference will we see (other than the impact on our finances) with a set of Rolf tandem wheels? Currently 48 spoke on HuGi hubs- dual disc.
Tandem Cycling - lightweight wheels
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03-08-10, 06:44 AM
The tandem will feel a bit lighter when you pick it up, lighter than the actual net weight reduction. I'm not sure why that is, but it just seems to work that way when you drop 1.5 lbs to 2.0 lbs off a 30 lb - 40 lb tandem.
As for the ride, the tandem should feel more lively and, again, the perceived performance gain is greater than the actual change. This can come from a number of the different things that come with switching over to lightweight racing wheels and the extent of the change is tied directly to just how different the new wheels and tires are from the old wheels and tires, noting the tires often times do more to influence the change than the wheels alone.
Frankly, just going from your 48's to a very lightweight set of 36h conventional wheels with a 25mm tire would probably feel pretty dramatic, and almost on par with a Rolf as far as first impressions go: the smaller tire running higher psi + the lighter wheel set will not dampen road vibration like your current wheels and tires and when coupled with the lighter weight of the wheels = that more lively road feel. Where the Rolfs differ from even the 36h wheels is the spoke network: the radially-laces front wheel has very little vertical compliance as compared to the 3x 36h wheels, never mind your 3x or 4x 48h wheels which, again, contribute to the more lively feel. At the same time, having 1/2 as many spokes that are also bladed eliminates more than 1/2 of the air turbulence around the front wheel which you can sense by feel through your hands via quicker, lighter steering response and that you can hear, i.e., less wind noise.
These things all contribute to the perception that the wheels have made a profound impact when the actual net improvement is something a bit less dramatic and as likely to have come from the tire and tire pressure change as anything else.
As for the ride, the tandem should feel more lively and, again, the perceived performance gain is greater than the actual change. This can come from a number of the different things that come with switching over to lightweight racing wheels and the extent of the change is tied directly to just how different the new wheels and tires are from the old wheels and tires, noting the tires often times do more to influence the change than the wheels alone.
Frankly, just going from your 48's to a very lightweight set of 36h conventional wheels with a 25mm tire would probably feel pretty dramatic, and almost on par with a Rolf as far as first impressions go: the smaller tire running higher psi + the lighter wheel set will not dampen road vibration like your current wheels and tires and when coupled with the lighter weight of the wheels = that more lively road feel. Where the Rolfs differ from even the 36h wheels is the spoke network: the radially-laces front wheel has very little vertical compliance as compared to the 3x 36h wheels, never mind your 3x or 4x 48h wheels which, again, contribute to the more lively feel. At the same time, having 1/2 as many spokes that are also bladed eliminates more than 1/2 of the air turbulence around the front wheel which you can sense by feel through your hands via quicker, lighter steering response and that you can hear, i.e., less wind noise.
These things all contribute to the perception that the wheels have made a profound impact when the actual net improvement is something a bit less dramatic and as likely to have come from the tire and tire pressure change as anything else.
mkane77g
03-08-10, 07:56 AM
We have Rolf's & 40 spoke wheelsets. I like the ride of the low spoke count wheels, seems to dampen road vibrations more than the 40 holers.
merlinextraligh
03-08-10, 08:28 AM
The aerodynamic difference between the Rolfs and a set of 48 spoke conventional rimmed wheels is going to be substantial.
Wheels make up about 10 to 15% of the aerodynamic drag. Going from a conventional 36 spoke wheel to a deep dish low spoke carbon wheel can reduce that 25% or about a 2-3% decrease in the total aerodynamic drag of bike and rider.
My bet is that the drag reduction between a 48 spoke wheel, and the Rolfs which are low spoke, and semi deep dish would be at least as prononced if not more so.
If you run that through analytic cycling, you get a speed increase of about .25mph at 25 mph.
Add into the equatiion that the weight reduction will make the bike accelerate, and climb just a tad faster, and there will be a perceivable increase in speed.
Wheels make up about 10 to 15% of the aerodynamic drag. Going from a conventional 36 spoke wheel to a deep dish low spoke carbon wheel can reduce that 25% or about a 2-3% decrease in the total aerodynamic drag of bike and rider.
My bet is that the drag reduction between a 48 spoke wheel, and the Rolfs which are low spoke, and semi deep dish would be at least as prononced if not more so.
If you run that through analytic cycling, you get a speed increase of about .25mph at 25 mph.
Add into the equatiion that the weight reduction will make the bike accelerate, and climb just a tad faster, and there will be a perceivable increase in speed.
TandemGeek
03-08-10, 08:59 AM
Wheels make up about 10 to 15% of the aerodynamic drag. Going from a conventional 36 spoke wheel to a deep dish low spoke carbon wheel can reduce that 25% or about a 2-3% decrease in the total aerodynamic drag of bike and rider.
The wheels when looked at by themselves, yes...
On a single bike with a physically-fit, average size test subject (usually a licensed racer), again I would agree.
However, not so for a tandem that has 1.5x as much aero drag as a single bike. Moreover, unless both riders fall into that physically fit, average size model the entire marketing spin on total bike/rider aero drag reduction is substantially less for a tandem if only because the total aero drag number is substantially higher to begin with.
There's no question light weight wheels feel much more lively and faster and that they can provide a tad improvement in performance (~.02% rotating mass and some equally low % of aero drag reduction) but, again, other aspects of performance change such as reduced rolling resistance typically comes from other changes that are made at the same time, e.g., tires. Moreover, to really reap the moderate reductions in aero drag a team really needs to be pushing their tandem at the higher speeds where aero drag becomes large enough to yield those more tangible reductions.
The only reason I could ever recommend something like racing wheels for a tandem that's not being used for racing is: (a) they look racy, (b) they feel more lively, (c) they're typically lighter than most conventional wheels, (d) they provide a huge placebo effect that can make your team train and ride harder or more often, and (e) you have the cash on hand to buy them as a second set of wheels.
The wheels when looked at by themselves, yes...
On a single bike with a physically-fit, average size test subject (usually a licensed racer), again I would agree.
However, not so for a tandem that has 1.5x as much aero drag as a single bike. Moreover, unless both riders fall into that physically fit, average size model the entire marketing spin on total bike/rider aero drag reduction is substantially less for a tandem if only because the total aero drag number is substantially higher to begin with.
There's no question light weight wheels feel much more lively and faster and that they can provide a tad improvement in performance (~.02% rotating mass and some equally low % of aero drag reduction) but, again, other aspects of performance change such as reduced rolling resistance typically comes from other changes that are made at the same time, e.g., tires. Moreover, to really reap the moderate reductions in aero drag a team really needs to be pushing their tandem at the higher speeds where aero drag becomes large enough to yield those more tangible reductions.
The only reason I could ever recommend something like racing wheels for a tandem that's not being used for racing is: (a) they look racy, (b) they feel more lively, (c) they're typically lighter than most conventional wheels, (d) they provide a huge placebo effect that can make your team train and ride harder or more often, and (e) you have the cash on hand to buy them as a second set of wheels.
TandemGeek
03-08-10, 09:09 AM
We have Rolf's & 40 spoke wheelsets. I like the ride of the low spoke count wheels, seems to dampen road vibrations more than the 40 holers.
No doubt. Perhaps I did not word my comment correctly....
...the lighter wheel set will not dampen road vibration [I] your current wheels and tires and when coupled with the lighter weight of the wheels = that more lively road feel.
I've tried to quantify the difference between our various 36h wheels laced 3x, two different sets of Rolfs ('07 & '08) and a set of Topolino wheels on different road surfaces running the exact same tires at the same tire pressure and it's not exactly linear. Smooth roads feel smoother on the Rolfs, but chip seal is awful and beats you to death. Big hits or bumps are also pretty painful for Debbie (stoker) but don't feel as 'sharp' up front on the Rolfs as they do even on 36h wheels laced 3x. The Topolino's are by far the best at dampening all forms of road vibration but, sadly, have not proven to be durable enough long term to do so by several teams and even ours have now gone out of true. 40h and 48h wheels will dampen road shock differently based on how they're laced (3x, 4x or even 5x) and typically run larger diameter tires at lower PSI, so it's all over the map but at the end of the day lightweight and lightweight/racing wheels always seem to feel more lively and faster.
No doubt. Perhaps I did not word my comment correctly....
...the lighter wheel set will not dampen road vibration [I] your current wheels and tires and when coupled with the lighter weight of the wheels = that more lively road feel.
I've tried to quantify the difference between our various 36h wheels laced 3x, two different sets of Rolfs ('07 & '08) and a set of Topolino wheels on different road surfaces running the exact same tires at the same tire pressure and it's not exactly linear. Smooth roads feel smoother on the Rolfs, but chip seal is awful and beats you to death. Big hits or bumps are also pretty painful for Debbie (stoker) but don't feel as 'sharp' up front on the Rolfs as they do even on 36h wheels laced 3x. The Topolino's are by far the best at dampening all forms of road vibration but, sadly, have not proven to be durable enough long term to do so by several teams and even ours have now gone out of true. 40h and 48h wheels will dampen road shock differently based on how they're laced (3x, 4x or even 5x) and typically run larger diameter tires at lower PSI, so it's all over the map but at the end of the day lightweight and lightweight/racing wheels always seem to feel more lively and faster.
merlinextraligh
03-08-10, 09:29 AM
The wheels when looked at by themselves, yes...
However, not so for a tandem that has 1.5x as much aero drag as a single bike. Moreover, unless both riders fall into that physically fit, average size model the entire marketing spin on total bike/rider aero drag reduction is substantially less for a tandem if only because the total aero drag number is substantially higher to begin with....
True, the percentage of drag from the wheels will be lower on a tandem, but the amount of drag coming from the Op's 48 spoke wheels is also going to be a lot more than a conventional 32-36 spoke wheel.
Thus I'm betting the speed increase at 25 mph is still going to be something around .25mph.
Note that I'm not suggesting this a huge increase in speed. For a 40km time trial we're talking about 30 seconds.
And without doing any testing, that small, but measurable speed increase would be consistent with our anecdotal experience.
Moreover, to really reap the moderate reductions in aero drag a team really needs to be pushing their tandem at the higher speeds where aero drag becomes large enough to yield those more tangible reductions.
Note that when I tried to model this, my assumption was with enough power output to produce 25 mph. For those few gifted people that can time trial at 28mph or above it would be more. If you're doing 18 mph it would be a fair amount less.
The only reason I could ever recommend something like racing wheels for a tandem that's not being used for racing is: (a) they look racy, (b) they feel more lively, (c) they're typically lighter than most conventional wheels, (d) they provide a huge placebo effect that can make your team train and ride harder or more often, and (e) you have the cash on hand to buy them as a second set of wheels.
I'd agree with all that. If you're not racing (or doing competitive group rides that are essentially races) then the admittedly small speed increase isn't going to matter much.
However, not so for a tandem that has 1.5x as much aero drag as a single bike. Moreover, unless both riders fall into that physically fit, average size model the entire marketing spin on total bike/rider aero drag reduction is substantially less for a tandem if only because the total aero drag number is substantially higher to begin with....
True, the percentage of drag from the wheels will be lower on a tandem, but the amount of drag coming from the Op's 48 spoke wheels is also going to be a lot more than a conventional 32-36 spoke wheel.
Thus I'm betting the speed increase at 25 mph is still going to be something around .25mph.
Note that I'm not suggesting this a huge increase in speed. For a 40km time trial we're talking about 30 seconds.
And without doing any testing, that small, but measurable speed increase would be consistent with our anecdotal experience.
Moreover, to really reap the moderate reductions in aero drag a team really needs to be pushing their tandem at the higher speeds where aero drag becomes large enough to yield those more tangible reductions.
Note that when I tried to model this, my assumption was with enough power output to produce 25 mph. For those few gifted people that can time trial at 28mph or above it would be more. If you're doing 18 mph it would be a fair amount less.
The only reason I could ever recommend something like racing wheels for a tandem that's not being used for racing is: (a) they look racy, (b) they feel more lively, (c) they're typically lighter than most conventional wheels, (d) they provide a huge placebo effect that can make your team train and ride harder or more often, and (e) you have the cash on hand to buy them as a second set of wheels.
I'd agree with all that. If you're not racing (or doing competitive group rides that are essentially races) then the admittedly small speed increase isn't going to matter much.
jnbrown
03-08-10, 09:43 AM
I have never been a fan of low spoke count wheels.
I have been building my own wheels for some years.
The problem is if you break a spoke on the road, its ride over unless you have a spare spoke and are able to install it. Also low spoke count wheels use higher spoke tensions which can prematurely wear out the rim by causing cracking around the spoke holes. If the tensions are not higher then the wheel will not be very stiff laterally. Since I weigh only 135 lbs I would not hesitate to use 20 spokes on the front and 24 on the rear of my single but not on a tandem. A good compromise is fewer spokes but enough to still have a robust wheel. Also CX Ray spokes cut off some weight and add some aerodynamics but also add about $2 per spoke in cost. My latest set of tandem wheels uses White Industries hubs, CX Ray spokes and Velocity Fusion rims. The wheels are laced with 32 spokes in 3X pattern. These wheels are lighter and less expensive than Rolf tandem wheels.
I am really impressed with the White industries hubs. I went with the Mi6 on the rear in case I wanted to add a disk brake at some point. IMHO a set of handbuilt wheels using components from established well known manufacturers will always beat botique wheels with components of unknown origin.
I have been building my own wheels for some years.
The problem is if you break a spoke on the road, its ride over unless you have a spare spoke and are able to install it. Also low spoke count wheels use higher spoke tensions which can prematurely wear out the rim by causing cracking around the spoke holes. If the tensions are not higher then the wheel will not be very stiff laterally. Since I weigh only 135 lbs I would not hesitate to use 20 spokes on the front and 24 on the rear of my single but not on a tandem. A good compromise is fewer spokes but enough to still have a robust wheel. Also CX Ray spokes cut off some weight and add some aerodynamics but also add about $2 per spoke in cost. My latest set of tandem wheels uses White Industries hubs, CX Ray spokes and Velocity Fusion rims. The wheels are laced with 32 spokes in 3X pattern. These wheels are lighter and less expensive than Rolf tandem wheels.
I am really impressed with the White industries hubs. I went with the Mi6 on the rear in case I wanted to add a disk brake at some point. IMHO a set of handbuilt wheels using components from established well known manufacturers will always beat botique wheels with components of unknown origin.
TandemGeek
03-08-10, 10:34 AM
The problem is if you break a spoke on the road, its ride over unless you have a spare spoke and are able to install it.
Actually, in practice folks have broken spokes on Rolfs, Sweet 16's and Bontrager wheels and other than being a bit out of true, just as a 36h wheel might be, they were all able to ride home.
In fact, in one instance, some friends had just finished riding along side Rolf Dietrich who was stoking a tandem at the Northwest Tandem Rally in Eugene a few years back and talking about wheels, spoke breaks and what not with the usual manufacturer's position, "they're rare" and son of a gun, blew a rear wheel spoke. A short while later the broken spoke's paired mate failed. They finished the ride on the wheel, less two spokes, but at least the wheel was true again. They are about a 300lb team.
There was, in fact, a bad run of Rolf's early on where the wheel builder puportedly did not lace the wheels per spec and once those wheels that broke spokes were sent back and fixed by Rolf, few if any one has had further problems with broken spokes.
There was also a problem with the front wheel hubs on another generation of the Rolfs where the flange had been drilled between the spoke holes for some additional weight savings. In this instance, the radially spoked wheels would fail at the flange as a chuck of hub would be pulled out by the spoke head. Again, one of our friends (340# team) had this happen during a fairly challenging century in NC and they were able to finish the ride. once they lashed the flailing spoke to another spoke on the wheel.
Also low spoke count wheels use higher spoke tensions which can prematurely wear out the rim by causing cracking around the spoke holes. If the tensions are not higher then the wheel will not be very stiff laterally.
True, which is why folks using these 'racing' wheels as every day wheels need to ask themselves, "why am I using THESE wheels?" They will not outlast conventional wheels and are just as vulnerable to road hazard damage and must typically be sent back to the manufacturer for repair / rebuilding as there are very few "authorized" service centers. Moreover, those repairs when not covered under warranty are expensive. And, lastly, even with their very high tension, I can tell you that the Rolfs do deflect quite a bit under side loads from even a somewhat lightweight team like us. You may never notice it unless you bomb through corners or go through a very high-G corner at the bottom of a short valley, but it's quite disconcerting if you're accustomed to the stablity that 36h conventional wheels (or greater) provide.
I am really impressed with the White industries hubs. I went with the Mi6 on the rear in case I wanted to add a disk brake at some point. IMHO a set of handbuilt wheels using components from established well known manufacturers will always beat botique wheels with components of unknown origin.
Unknown origin? Rolf's hubs are made by White Industries, just to Rolf's specs. In fact, the internals are interchangeable. I haven't asked who makes the rims or spokes, but it would clearly be another company of similar standing with a reputation for quality and reliability.
Actually, in practice folks have broken spokes on Rolfs, Sweet 16's and Bontrager wheels and other than being a bit out of true, just as a 36h wheel might be, they were all able to ride home.
In fact, in one instance, some friends had just finished riding along side Rolf Dietrich who was stoking a tandem at the Northwest Tandem Rally in Eugene a few years back and talking about wheels, spoke breaks and what not with the usual manufacturer's position, "they're rare" and son of a gun, blew a rear wheel spoke. A short while later the broken spoke's paired mate failed. They finished the ride on the wheel, less two spokes, but at least the wheel was true again. They are about a 300lb team.
There was, in fact, a bad run of Rolf's early on where the wheel builder puportedly did not lace the wheels per spec and once those wheels that broke spokes were sent back and fixed by Rolf, few if any one has had further problems with broken spokes.
There was also a problem with the front wheel hubs on another generation of the Rolfs where the flange had been drilled between the spoke holes for some additional weight savings. In this instance, the radially spoked wheels would fail at the flange as a chuck of hub would be pulled out by the spoke head. Again, one of our friends (340# team) had this happen during a fairly challenging century in NC and they were able to finish the ride. once they lashed the flailing spoke to another spoke on the wheel.
Also low spoke count wheels use higher spoke tensions which can prematurely wear out the rim by causing cracking around the spoke holes. If the tensions are not higher then the wheel will not be very stiff laterally.
True, which is why folks using these 'racing' wheels as every day wheels need to ask themselves, "why am I using THESE wheels?" They will not outlast conventional wheels and are just as vulnerable to road hazard damage and must typically be sent back to the manufacturer for repair / rebuilding as there are very few "authorized" service centers. Moreover, those repairs when not covered under warranty are expensive. And, lastly, even with their very high tension, I can tell you that the Rolfs do deflect quite a bit under side loads from even a somewhat lightweight team like us. You may never notice it unless you bomb through corners or go through a very high-G corner at the bottom of a short valley, but it's quite disconcerting if you're accustomed to the stablity that 36h conventional wheels (or greater) provide.
I am really impressed with the White industries hubs. I went with the Mi6 on the rear in case I wanted to add a disk brake at some point. IMHO a set of handbuilt wheels using components from established well known manufacturers will always beat botique wheels with components of unknown origin.
Unknown origin? Rolf's hubs are made by White Industries, just to Rolf's specs. In fact, the internals are interchangeable. I haven't asked who makes the rims or spokes, but it would clearly be another company of similar standing with a reputation for quality and reliability.
zonatandem
03-08-10, 11:58 AM
Why you want/need lighter wheels . . . and
. . . have you got excess greenish bills in your wallet?
Heck, we all can justify expenditures when it comes to having fun on the tandem!
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
. . . have you got excess greenish bills in your wallet?
Heck, we all can justify expenditures when it comes to having fun on the tandem!
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
joe@vwvortex
03-08-10, 03:34 PM
I have never been a fan of low spoke count wheels.
I have been building my own wheels for some years.
The problem is if you break a spoke on the road, its ride over unless you have a spare spoke and are able to install it. Also low spoke count wheels use higher spoke tensions which can prematurely wear out the rim by causing cracking around the spoke holes. If the tensions are not higher then the wheel will not be very stiff laterally. Since I weigh only 135 lbs I would not hesitate to use 20 spokes on the front and 24 on the rear of my single but not on a tandem. A good compromise is fewer spokes but enough to still have a robust wheel. Also CX Ray spokes cut off some weight and add some aerodynamics but also add about $2 per spoke in cost. My latest set of tandem wheels uses White Industries hubs, CX Ray spokes and Velocity Fusion rims. The wheels are laced with 32 spokes in 3X pattern. These wheels are lighter and less expensive than Rolf tandem wheels.
I am really impressed with the White industries hubs. I went with the Mi6 on the rear in case I wanted to add a disk brake at some point. IMHO a set of handbuilt wheels using components from established well known manufacturers will always beat botique wheels with components of unknown origin.
Try replacing an inner spoke on the drive side of a regular wheel on the road - you carry a chain whip and cluster removal tool? Same with the non drive side if you have disc wheels which have a disc adapter. I've ridden home with a broken spoke on my rear Rolf before - not a problem.
I have been building my own wheels for some years.
The problem is if you break a spoke on the road, its ride over unless you have a spare spoke and are able to install it. Also low spoke count wheels use higher spoke tensions which can prematurely wear out the rim by causing cracking around the spoke holes. If the tensions are not higher then the wheel will not be very stiff laterally. Since I weigh only 135 lbs I would not hesitate to use 20 spokes on the front and 24 on the rear of my single but not on a tandem. A good compromise is fewer spokes but enough to still have a robust wheel. Also CX Ray spokes cut off some weight and add some aerodynamics but also add about $2 per spoke in cost. My latest set of tandem wheels uses White Industries hubs, CX Ray spokes and Velocity Fusion rims. The wheels are laced with 32 spokes in 3X pattern. These wheels are lighter and less expensive than Rolf tandem wheels.
I am really impressed with the White industries hubs. I went with the Mi6 on the rear in case I wanted to add a disk brake at some point. IMHO a set of handbuilt wheels using components from established well known manufacturers will always beat botique wheels with components of unknown origin.
Try replacing an inner spoke on the drive side of a regular wheel on the road - you carry a chain whip and cluster removal tool? Same with the non drive side if you have disc wheels which have a disc adapter. I've ridden home with a broken spoke on my rear Rolf before - not a problem.
Homeyba
03-08-10, 06:53 PM
I have never been a fan of low spoke count wheels.
I have been building my own wheels for some years.
The problem is if you break a spoke on the road, its ride over unless you have a spare spoke and are able to install it. ...
I broke a spoke on my eight year old front Zipp wheel last month and it wasn't ride over. We rode it 15 miles home with no problems other than a slight wobble. We did take it very easy and kept the speeds low but it got us back with no problems. I had a 36spoke wheel break two spokes at once 15 miles outside of Brest (France). I wasn't able to fix it and was barely able to get the bike back to town...
I have been building my own wheels for some years.
The problem is if you break a spoke on the road, its ride over unless you have a spare spoke and are able to install it. ...
I broke a spoke on my eight year old front Zipp wheel last month and it wasn't ride over. We rode it 15 miles home with no problems other than a slight wobble. We did take it very easy and kept the speeds low but it got us back with no problems. I had a 36spoke wheel break two spokes at once 15 miles outside of Brest (France). I wasn't able to fix it and was barely able to get the bike back to town...
mkane77g
03-08-10, 08:56 PM
Our Rolfs have been very reliable, 3 years old, 500 miles monthly. Combined weight below 300lbs. 40 holers are spares.
Ritterview
03-08-10, 09:21 PM
The only reason I could ever recommend something like racing wheels for a tandem that's not being used for racing is: (a) they look racy, (b) they feel more lively, (c) they're typically lighter than most conventional wheels, (d) they provide a huge placebo effect that can make your team train and ride harder or more often, and (e) you have the cash on hand to buy them as a second set of wheels.
Another reason to have racing-style deep dish rims is wheel stiffness. I had planned to get 45 mm Edge rims as a balance between weight and aero, but the Edge rims are limited to 28 spokes and their spoke holes are molded, which precludes drilling additional holes. Both Rich at Wheelbuilder and Jason at Fairwheel recommended therefore the deeper 66mm rims, as these both strengthen the rim and reduce spoke length.
It will be interesting to determine if these wheels are sufficiently stiff.
Another tandem-specific consideration with aero wheels is braking rim heat. Aero carbon rims are lighter than aluminum. For example, the Edge 66 mm (http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/edge-composites-65-clincher-rim.html) rim is 500 grams, whereas the Velocity B43 (http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/velocity-b43-clincher-rim.html)(mm) aluminum rim is 770 grams. So, those wanting their aero wheel to be relatively light will want to consider a carbon rim. However, carbon does not dissipate heat so well as aluminum, and moreover can essentially melt at a lower temperature. Teams with greater team weight and on steep descents might damage their carbon rims more readily than they would aluminum.
For the rear wheel, this will not present a problem, as we will have an Avid BB7. We will have to be very cautious with the front. I will likely purchase an aluminum front wheel for rides with steep descents.
Another reason to have racing-style deep dish rims is wheel stiffness. I had planned to get 45 mm Edge rims as a balance between weight and aero, but the Edge rims are limited to 28 spokes and their spoke holes are molded, which precludes drilling additional holes. Both Rich at Wheelbuilder and Jason at Fairwheel recommended therefore the deeper 66mm rims, as these both strengthen the rim and reduce spoke length.
It will be interesting to determine if these wheels are sufficiently stiff.
Another tandem-specific consideration with aero wheels is braking rim heat. Aero carbon rims are lighter than aluminum. For example, the Edge 66 mm (http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/edge-composites-65-clincher-rim.html) rim is 500 grams, whereas the Velocity B43 (http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/velocity-b43-clincher-rim.html)(mm) aluminum rim is 770 grams. So, those wanting their aero wheel to be relatively light will want to consider a carbon rim. However, carbon does not dissipate heat so well as aluminum, and moreover can essentially melt at a lower temperature. Teams with greater team weight and on steep descents might damage their carbon rims more readily than they would aluminum.
For the rear wheel, this will not present a problem, as we will have an Avid BB7. We will have to be very cautious with the front. I will likely purchase an aluminum front wheel for rides with steep descents.
TandemGeek
03-08-10, 09:53 PM
I had planned to get 45 mm Edge rims as a balance between weight and aero, but the Edge rims are limited to 28 spokes and their spoke holes are molded, which precludes drilling additional holes. Both Rich at Wheelbuilder and Jason at Fairwheel recommended therefore the deeper 66mm rims, as these both strengthen the rim and reduce spoke length... Another tandem-specific consideration with aero wheels is braking rim heat. Aero carbon rims are lighter than aluminum.
Maybe you missed my caveat, "The only reason I could ever recommend something like racing wheels for a tandem that's not being used for racing is:"
Surely, no one in their right mind would outfit their tandem with $2,000+ wheelsets for use outside of a sanctioned racing event, that is unless they have more money than sense.
Maybe you missed my caveat, "The only reason I could ever recommend something like racing wheels for a tandem that's not being used for racing is:"
Surely, no one in their right mind would outfit their tandem with $2,000+ wheelsets for use outside of a sanctioned racing event, that is unless they have more money than sense.
Carbonfiberboy
03-08-10, 10:27 PM
Agreeing with Merlin and TG here. We have a 36H Aerohead in front and a 36H Deep-V in back with light high pressure tires. Love how the bike feels. We're a fairly aero team and when the road tips down a little we are just gone. When the other teams catch us, they're shouting "Hammerheads!" which is not true at all. It's not so noticeable under 25.
I've had very good experiences with Rolfs on my single and wouldn't hesitate to put them on our tandem except for the cost-benefit thing. Their rims wear just as fast as any other rim, maybe faster. We had a side-by-side coasting duel with a Speedster with Rolfs and a team about our height but heavier than we are. We beat them fairly handily.
I've had very good experiences with Rolfs on my single and wouldn't hesitate to put them on our tandem except for the cost-benefit thing. Their rims wear just as fast as any other rim, maybe faster. We had a side-by-side coasting duel with a Speedster with Rolfs and a team about our height but heavier than we are. We beat them fairly handily.
paulandyael
03-08-10, 11:17 PM
Well, that's about every point of view on the matter. I think I'll keep the $1000 for my son's college... thanks.
jnbrown
03-08-10, 11:22 PM
I broke a spoke on my eight year old front Zipp wheel last month and it wasn't ride over. We rode it 15 miles home with no problems other than a slight wobble. We did take it very easy and kept the speeds low but it got us back with no problems. I had a 36spoke wheel break two spokes at once 15 miles outside of Brest (France). I wasn't able to fix it and was barely able to get the bike back to town...
Well I guess I shot my mouth off without thinking it through. I once had a 16 spoke Velomax (now Easton) wheel on my single and when it broke a spoke it was ride over. To top it off, Velomax would not send me one of their special spokes to fix it. I had to send it back to them at my expense to be repaired. They used a Velocity aerohead rim which is not very deep or rigid. I think that was the day I decided to start building my own wheels.
So if you have a deep rim, breaking a spoke may not be a big deal as I thought and the paired spokes on Rolf wheels may make it even less of a problem.
Spokes should not break on a properly designed and built wheel in the first place. But I have to admit I have had wheels that break spokes for no obvious reason, while other wheels never have broken a spoke.
Well I guess I shot my mouth off without thinking it through. I once had a 16 spoke Velomax (now Easton) wheel on my single and when it broke a spoke it was ride over. To top it off, Velomax would not send me one of their special spokes to fix it. I had to send it back to them at my expense to be repaired. They used a Velocity aerohead rim which is not very deep or rigid. I think that was the day I decided to start building my own wheels.
So if you have a deep rim, breaking a spoke may not be a big deal as I thought and the paired spokes on Rolf wheels may make it even less of a problem.
Spokes should not break on a properly designed and built wheel in the first place. But I have to admit I have had wheels that break spokes for no obvious reason, while other wheels never have broken a spoke.
Ritterview
03-09-10, 12:01 AM
Surely, no one in their right mind would outfit their tandem with $2,000+ wheelsets for use outside of a sanctioned racing event, that is unless they have more money than sense.
Whew! I checked on the price of my wheelset, and it was well under $2000. Though I do plan to participate in 'sanctioned racing events', I nonetheless worried that I was out of my 'right mind', for exceeding the cost of tandem wheelset beyond that which TG 'could ever recommend'.
But if $2000+ for a wheelset indicates mental illness, then there must be similar demarcations for other components. Perhaps for our edification, TG, you could post a table for all components on a tandem, and indicate for each the cost that no one in 'their right mind' would ever exceed.
Whew! I checked on the price of my wheelset, and it was well under $2000. Though I do plan to participate in 'sanctioned racing events', I nonetheless worried that I was out of my 'right mind', for exceeding the cost of tandem wheelset beyond that which TG 'could ever recommend'.
But if $2000+ for a wheelset indicates mental illness, then there must be similar demarcations for other components. Perhaps for our edification, TG, you could post a table for all components on a tandem, and indicate for each the cost that no one in 'their right mind' would ever exceed.
coloroadie
03-09-10, 12:45 AM
I broke a spoke on my eight year old front Zipp wheel last month and it wasn't ride over. We rode it 15 miles home with no problems other than a slight wobble. We did take it very easy and kept the speeds low but it got us back with no problems. I had a 36spoke wheel break two spokes at once 15 miles outside of Brest (France). I wasn't able to fix it and was barely able to get the bike back to town...
One more data point - broke a spoke on Sweet 16 rear wheel while descending Independence Pass (12,000+ ft) into Aspen on Ride the Rockies last summer ... hit something unexpected in bike/car traffic at 50mph. Since we had a rear disc brake, didn't even notice until i was checking equipment later that afternoon. We carried extra spokes and spoke wrench, so not a problem.
As others have reported, losing a single spoke on a low spoke count wheel isn't always game over - but you should come prepared with those special bits you may need to continue.
One more data point - broke a spoke on Sweet 16 rear wheel while descending Independence Pass (12,000+ ft) into Aspen on Ride the Rockies last summer ... hit something unexpected in bike/car traffic at 50mph. Since we had a rear disc brake, didn't even notice until i was checking equipment later that afternoon. We carried extra spokes and spoke wrench, so not a problem.
As others have reported, losing a single spoke on a low spoke count wheel isn't always game over - but you should come prepared with those special bits you may need to continue.
Chris_W
03-09-10, 01:39 AM
Due to fear of spoke breakages on long rides, I bought a FiberFix (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fiberfix.htm) kit from Peter White Cycles last year. It comes in a tiny cylinder and weighs just a few grams. I found that you can also squeeze a quick-link for a chain into the same pot to keep things tidy in your saddlebag. Fortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to try it out yet, although I did read through the instructions carefully to make sure I understood it before taking it on the road. You can install it in any position without removing the cassette. I don't think it's officially "tandem rated," but if you've broken a spoke then using it is going to be much better than using nothing.
140826
Proper touring cyclists will carry a set of spare spokes, often taped to their left chain-stay. You can then carry a small tool called the Next Best Thing 2 (NBT2 (http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm)) to remove the cassette when needed. See this page (http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-029/index.html) for other similar options.
140825
140826
Proper touring cyclists will carry a set of spare spokes, often taped to their left chain-stay. You can then carry a small tool called the Next Best Thing 2 (NBT2 (http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm)) to remove the cassette when needed. See this page (http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-029/index.html) for other similar options.
140825
TandemGeek
03-09-10, 05:25 AM
Whew!I nonetheless worried that I was out of my 'right mind', for exceeding the cost of tandem wheelset beyond that which TG 'could ever recommend'.
But if $2000+ for a wheelset indicates mental illness, then there must be similar demarcations for other components. Perhaps for our edification, TG, you could post a table for all components on a tandem, and indicate for each the cost that no one in 'their right mind' would ever exceed.
Remember, there are TWO options in this scenario: "Surely, no one in their right mind would outfit their tandem with $2,000+ wheelsets for use outside of a sanctioned racing event, that is unless they have more money than sense."
You just gotta pick the one that suits.
I have fallen into both categories from time to time in many different projects, interest and hobbies, but usually recognize it only after I've come back to my senses.
But if $2000+ for a wheelset indicates mental illness, then there must be similar demarcations for other components. Perhaps for our edification, TG, you could post a table for all components on a tandem, and indicate for each the cost that no one in 'their right mind' would ever exceed.
Remember, there are TWO options in this scenario: "Surely, no one in their right mind would outfit their tandem with $2,000+ wheelsets for use outside of a sanctioned racing event, that is unless they have more money than sense."
You just gotta pick the one that suits.
I have fallen into both categories from time to time in many different projects, interest and hobbies, but usually recognize it only after I've come back to my senses.
2frmMI
03-09-10, 10:35 AM
Our Rolfs failed midway through an expensive European tour (not loaded). 330# team. Spokes pulled through rear rim. Don't know how long the damage may have been developing, but I must say the discovery was disconcerting. Able to ride the balance of the day, maybe 30 more miles after finding the failure - erupting spokes at three separate locations around the rim. Didn't feel safe riding any additional days, so had to borrow the tour leader's singles for the second week (not the end of the world since they were Glenn Erickson's personal bikes!). No way to fix the Rolfs on the road, as mentioned. I really don't know why I didn't know that the Rolfs were "racing wheels" only. No vendor or online stuff at Rolf says "for racing only". They seemed simply like high end shi-shi wheels and we were suckered in. After rebuild (by Rolf for lots-o-bucks) we still use them, but only for club/day rides. Would never take them on a tour again.
TandemGeek
03-09-10, 11:59 AM
I really don't know why I didn't know that the Rolfs were "racing wheels" only.
As the consumer market heated up the "racing wheels" label gave way to "high performance" and in the quest to be king of the hill with the most 'robust wheels available' it became common for wheels like the Rolfs Prima Vigor Tandem, Bontrager Race Lite Tandem and Santana's Shimano DuraAce / Sweet 16's to tout that they were strong enough for daily use or, in some cases, it was suggested they were even stronger than 40h conventional wheels. Consumers being consumers consumed all of this and go-fast 'performance wheels' ended up on all kinds of tandems that really would have been better served by conventionally built, component wheelsets, i.e., the tandem market simply mirrored the single bike marketing trends.
It took me a looong time to even start playing around with low spoke count wheels, first on my single bike with MAVIC Cosmos Elites and then Campy G3 Eurus wheelsets. It wasn't until 2008 when we bought the Calfee that I even ventured into the Rolfs, mostly as an experiement to see if I could quantify the purported ' performance enhancing' features for an average, recreational tandem team. As it turns out, most of my original impressions and opinions regarding 'performance wheels' was fairly sound and you can see that reflected in my comments and validated by spending my own $$ on various different wheelsets for the sake of curiosity.
Today, even with a set of Rolfs and Topolino's on hand, we still do our every day rides on a pair of 36h Velocity Deep-Vs with White Ind hubs, also our default for tours and out of town events. We'll sometimes throw on the Rolfs or Topolino's for show at rallies or other group rides or to get that slight go-fast pacebo effect, but if we didn't have the go-fast wheels I surely wouldn't miss them.
As the consumer market heated up the "racing wheels" label gave way to "high performance" and in the quest to be king of the hill with the most 'robust wheels available' it became common for wheels like the Rolfs Prima Vigor Tandem, Bontrager Race Lite Tandem and Santana's Shimano DuraAce / Sweet 16's to tout that they were strong enough for daily use or, in some cases, it was suggested they were even stronger than 40h conventional wheels. Consumers being consumers consumed all of this and go-fast 'performance wheels' ended up on all kinds of tandems that really would have been better served by conventionally built, component wheelsets, i.e., the tandem market simply mirrored the single bike marketing trends.
It took me a looong time to even start playing around with low spoke count wheels, first on my single bike with MAVIC Cosmos Elites and then Campy G3 Eurus wheelsets. It wasn't until 2008 when we bought the Calfee that I even ventured into the Rolfs, mostly as an experiement to see if I could quantify the purported ' performance enhancing' features for an average, recreational tandem team. As it turns out, most of my original impressions and opinions regarding 'performance wheels' was fairly sound and you can see that reflected in my comments and validated by spending my own $$ on various different wheelsets for the sake of curiosity.
Today, even with a set of Rolfs and Topolino's on hand, we still do our every day rides on a pair of 36h Velocity Deep-Vs with White Ind hubs, also our default for tours and out of town events. We'll sometimes throw on the Rolfs or Topolino's for show at rallies or other group rides or to get that slight go-fast pacebo effect, but if we didn't have the go-fast wheels I surely wouldn't miss them.
icanguy
03-09-10, 02:40 PM
I build my own wheels using White Industries hubs and Velocity DeepV rims. I go with the 36 hole three cross in the back and 36 hole radial lace in the front they are very strong wheels. I have probably 40,000 miles on the Co-Motion with these wheels and never had a problem.
chichi
03-09-10, 03:30 PM
I build my own wheels using White Industries hubs .
Seems I here the White Industries hubs mentioned quite a bit. Any particular reason to choose them over Chris King or Phil Wood hubs?
Seems I here the White Industries hubs mentioned quite a bit. Any particular reason to choose them over Chris King or Phil Wood hubs?
jnbrown
03-09-10, 04:13 PM
They are pretty lightweight and well made for the cost. You can get disk or non-disk versions.
Chris King makes good stuff but I had some issues with their tandem hubs years ago.
Chris King makes good stuff but I had some issues with their tandem hubs years ago.
Ritterview
03-09-10, 05:58 PM
Today, even with a set of Rolfs and Topolino's on hand, we still do our every day rides on a pair of 36h Velocity Deep-Vs with White Ind hubs, also our default for tours and out of town events. We'll sometimes throw on the Rolfs or Topolino's for show at rallies or other group rides or to get that slight go-fast pacebo effect, but if we didn't have the go-fast wheels I surely wouldn't miss them.
So,
http://www.webcyclery.com/image.php?productid=17810
$1000 (http://www.precisiontandems.com/rolfwheelstandem.htm)
http://www.webcyclery.com/image.php?productid=18124
$700 (http://www.precisiontandems.com/catframepart.htm)
http://www.webcyclery.com/image.php?productid=18589
$1,420 (http://www.webcyclery.com/product.php?productid=18589&cat=469&page=3)
You've got $3,120 into wheels, and hardly ever use anything but the non-aero/2000 gram Velocity/White Ind wheels, except for 'show'. For Rolf's or Topolino's, you discourage daily use, which necessitates those interested in greater performance to purchase both the $700 and the $1000/$1,420 wheels, for a total outlay of $1700/$2120.
Surely, no one in their right mind would outfit their tandem with $2,000+ wheelsets for use outside of a sanctioned racing event, that is unless they have more money than sense.
So, it is lunacy to purchase $2000 wheel built that is both light/aero enough to be used for racing, and sufficiently robust to be used on a daily basis? How do you figure? Do you have any specific knowledge about carbon rimmed wheels on tandems that you can relate? If not, what is the basis for the >$2,000 = insanity claim, when your recommended alternative of two wheelsets will often exceed $2,000, and has demonstrable disadvantages?
So,
http://www.webcyclery.com/image.php?productid=17810
$1000 (http://www.precisiontandems.com/rolfwheelstandem.htm)
http://www.webcyclery.com/image.php?productid=18124
$700 (http://www.precisiontandems.com/catframepart.htm)
http://www.webcyclery.com/image.php?productid=18589
$1,420 (http://www.webcyclery.com/product.php?productid=18589&cat=469&page=3)
You've got $3,120 into wheels, and hardly ever use anything but the non-aero/2000 gram Velocity/White Ind wheels, except for 'show'. For Rolf's or Topolino's, you discourage daily use, which necessitates those interested in greater performance to purchase both the $700 and the $1000/$1,420 wheels, for a total outlay of $1700/$2120.
Surely, no one in their right mind would outfit their tandem with $2,000+ wheelsets for use outside of a sanctioned racing event, that is unless they have more money than sense.
So, it is lunacy to purchase $2000 wheel built that is both light/aero enough to be used for racing, and sufficiently robust to be used on a daily basis? How do you figure? Do you have any specific knowledge about carbon rimmed wheels on tandems that you can relate? If not, what is the basis for the >$2,000 = insanity claim, when your recommended alternative of two wheelsets will often exceed $2,000, and has demonstrable disadvantages?
Homeyba
03-09-10, 06:06 PM
...So if you have a deep rim, breaking a spoke may not be a big deal as I thought and the paired spokes on Rolf wheels may make it even less of a problem.
Spokes should not break on a properly designed and built wheel in the first place. But I have to admit I have had wheels that break spokes for no obvious reason, while other wheels never have broken a spoke.
I fully agree with you on that! My opinion on this it that a rider (or tandem team) should ride on what they are comfortable with. If you are worried about low spoke count wheels you shouldn't be on them. If you are comfortable with them, the more power to you. I personally have had great success with what many people call "boutique" or racing wheels and don't see a problem using such a wheelset as long as they were built by someone who I consider an expert wheel builder. A well built wheelset should lead a long happy broken spoke free life regardless of the number of spokes.
If I spend any money on wheels, be it $300 or $3000 I'm going to ride them till I get my money out of them. I don't think anyone would be in their right mind to buy any wheelset just to have them sitting in the garage for all but a half dozen rides or races a year. ;)
Spokes should not break on a properly designed and built wheel in the first place. But I have to admit I have had wheels that break spokes for no obvious reason, while other wheels never have broken a spoke.
I fully agree with you on that! My opinion on this it that a rider (or tandem team) should ride on what they are comfortable with. If you are worried about low spoke count wheels you shouldn't be on them. If you are comfortable with them, the more power to you. I personally have had great success with what many people call "boutique" or racing wheels and don't see a problem using such a wheelset as long as they were built by someone who I consider an expert wheel builder. A well built wheelset should lead a long happy broken spoke free life regardless of the number of spokes.
If I spend any money on wheels, be it $300 or $3000 I'm going to ride them till I get my money out of them. I don't think anyone would be in their right mind to buy any wheelset just to have them sitting in the garage for all but a half dozen rides or races a year. ;)
chichi
03-09-10, 06:32 PM
So, it is lunacy to purchase $2000 wheel built that is both light/aero enough to be used for racing, and sufficiently robust to be used on a daily basis? How do you figure? Do you have any specific knowledge about carbon rimmed wheels on tandems that you can relate? If not, what is the basis for the >$2,000 = insanity claim, when your recommended alternative of two wheelsets will often exceed $2,000, and has demonstrable disadvantages?
I see this argument about what is a reasonable amount of money to spend on cycling coming up in various forms on various forums on a regular basis. My thinking is that I have not seen anything bicycle related that I would consider outrageously expensive in the scheme of "boys and their toys". The nature of bicycle parts or bicycles is such that most of us could afford to buy any bike or part that you wouldn't be embarrassed to show up with at any ride or race any place in the world. It is also the nature of bicycling that you could show up at any race or ride at any place in the world and get your butt kicked by somebody riding a piece of equipment that you wouldn't be caught dead riding. Can't say the same same thing about..........cars, motorcycles, boats, stereos, theater systems, housing, airplanes etc. On the San Francisco peninsula it is not unusual to show up on rides where more than 1 rider is counting their money in fractions or even multipliers of billions, but you can't tell who's got the money based on what they are riding. In the end your ability to ride well within the group determines who's who ( I did not say your ability to ride faster than everybody in group).
I do appreciate those that are willing to be on the bleeding edge of technology as I enjoy the tricle down effect
I see this argument about what is a reasonable amount of money to spend on cycling coming up in various forms on various forums on a regular basis. My thinking is that I have not seen anything bicycle related that I would consider outrageously expensive in the scheme of "boys and their toys". The nature of bicycle parts or bicycles is such that most of us could afford to buy any bike or part that you wouldn't be embarrassed to show up with at any ride or race any place in the world. It is also the nature of bicycling that you could show up at any race or ride at any place in the world and get your butt kicked by somebody riding a piece of equipment that you wouldn't be caught dead riding. Can't say the same same thing about..........cars, motorcycles, boats, stereos, theater systems, housing, airplanes etc. On the San Francisco peninsula it is not unusual to show up on rides where more than 1 rider is counting their money in fractions or even multipliers of billions, but you can't tell who's got the money based on what they are riding. In the end your ability to ride well within the group determines who's who ( I did not say your ability to ride faster than everybody in group).
I do appreciate those that are willing to be on the bleeding edge of technology as I enjoy the tricle down effect
jnbrown
03-09-10, 06:34 PM
So,
You've got $3,120 into wheels, and hardly ever use anything but the non-aero/2000 gram Velocity/White Ind wheels, except for 'show'. For Rolf's or Topolino's, you discourage daily use, which necessitates those interested in greater performance to purchase both the $700 and the $1000/$1,420 wheels, for a total outlay of $1700/$2120.
So, it is lunacy to purchase $2000 wheel built that is both light/aero enough to be used for racing, and sufficiently robust to be used on a daily basis? How do you figure? Do you have any specific knowledge about carbon rimmed wheels on tandems that you can relate? If not, what is the basis for the >$2,000 = insanity claim, when your recommended alternative of two wheelsets will often exceed $2,000, and has demonstrable disadvantages?
Clearly, deep carbon rims reduce weight and improve aerodynamics. However I would question their durability compared to an aluminum rim. As you yourself stated there is a potential heating problem when used on a tandem with rim brakes. Adding a disk brake probably negates the weight savings of the rim. Just this last weekend a friend was doing a 250 mile brevet in the rain and he reported this:
Had to DNF at mile 193 on Saturday at 7:00pm. Got a front flat doing 35 mph from what appeared to be a spring. The spring went around a couple of rotations and then got spit out. Pressure went and I just about went down. I tried using the brake a bit and started to lose the front end since it was wet. Just decided to let it roll down on its own and did my best to keep the bike running straight. By the time I stopped the rim and debris had torn up the sidewalls. I walked about a ¼ mile and found some shelter and a little light. Replaced the front tube and limped along until I got to a 7-Eleven. Called the SAG and that was it for me.
When I took my wife to the airport on Sunday morning at 4:30 am we saw riders on the course heading up Scripps Poway Pkwy. Keep in mind the ride started at 4:00am on Saturday. They still had another 2-3 hours left. Saw another one walking his bike up one of the grades on Scripps. On my return trip from the airport an hour later I found a rider curled up in a fetal position on the corner of Scripps and General Atomics Way. I pulled over to discover he had 2 flats and 2 cracked carbon wheels. He hit a pothole coming down Scripps and broke both wheels. He had some really nice deep dish Cane Creek aero wheels.
Since I no longer race and can't justify spending a lot of money to save a few seconds or minutes I find aluminum rims to be quite sufficient.
But if that is what is important to you and you have the dollars then go for it.
You've got $3,120 into wheels, and hardly ever use anything but the non-aero/2000 gram Velocity/White Ind wheels, except for 'show'. For Rolf's or Topolino's, you discourage daily use, which necessitates those interested in greater performance to purchase both the $700 and the $1000/$1,420 wheels, for a total outlay of $1700/$2120.
So, it is lunacy to purchase $2000 wheel built that is both light/aero enough to be used for racing, and sufficiently robust to be used on a daily basis? How do you figure? Do you have any specific knowledge about carbon rimmed wheels on tandems that you can relate? If not, what is the basis for the >$2,000 = insanity claim, when your recommended alternative of two wheelsets will often exceed $2,000, and has demonstrable disadvantages?
Clearly, deep carbon rims reduce weight and improve aerodynamics. However I would question their durability compared to an aluminum rim. As you yourself stated there is a potential heating problem when used on a tandem with rim brakes. Adding a disk brake probably negates the weight savings of the rim. Just this last weekend a friend was doing a 250 mile brevet in the rain and he reported this:
Had to DNF at mile 193 on Saturday at 7:00pm. Got a front flat doing 35 mph from what appeared to be a spring. The spring went around a couple of rotations and then got spit out. Pressure went and I just about went down. I tried using the brake a bit and started to lose the front end since it was wet. Just decided to let it roll down on its own and did my best to keep the bike running straight. By the time I stopped the rim and debris had torn up the sidewalls. I walked about a ¼ mile and found some shelter and a little light. Replaced the front tube and limped along until I got to a 7-Eleven. Called the SAG and that was it for me.
When I took my wife to the airport on Sunday morning at 4:30 am we saw riders on the course heading up Scripps Poway Pkwy. Keep in mind the ride started at 4:00am on Saturday. They still had another 2-3 hours left. Saw another one walking his bike up one of the grades on Scripps. On my return trip from the airport an hour later I found a rider curled up in a fetal position on the corner of Scripps and General Atomics Way. I pulled over to discover he had 2 flats and 2 cracked carbon wheels. He hit a pothole coming down Scripps and broke both wheels. He had some really nice deep dish Cane Creek aero wheels.
Since I no longer race and can't justify spending a lot of money to save a few seconds or minutes I find aluminum rims to be quite sufficient.
But if that is what is important to you and you have the dollars then go for it.
uspspro
03-09-10, 07:53 PM
Here's my take....
I would love to have some deep Edge rims on WI hubs with 28h (whatever is the most they do). I think that they would be strong enough to handle riding fast, dealing with rough roads, etc.. on our tandem. I think they would feel great and perform well.
BUT...
Here's why I wouldn't use them on our weekend rides. Braking.
Carbon rims just do not have the same capabilities as their aluminum counterparts when dealing with braking.
I know a guy who literally melted a rim going down Welch Creek in the East Bay Area, CA (4 miles of avg 10%).
I just went down Hicks in the South Bay this past weekend, and I would not want to be on carbon rims coming down that on the tandem.
I would love to have some deep Edge rims on WI hubs with 28h (whatever is the most they do). I think that they would be strong enough to handle riding fast, dealing with rough roads, etc.. on our tandem. I think they would feel great and perform well.
BUT...
Here's why I wouldn't use them on our weekend rides. Braking.
Carbon rims just do not have the same capabilities as their aluminum counterparts when dealing with braking.
I know a guy who literally melted a rim going down Welch Creek in the East Bay Area, CA (4 miles of avg 10%).
I just went down Hicks in the South Bay this past weekend, and I would not want to be on carbon rims coming down that on the tandem.
TandemGeek
03-09-10, 08:05 PM
You've got $3,120 into wheels, and hardly ever use anything but the non-aero/2000 gram Velocity/White Ind wheels, except for 'show'. For Rolf's or Topolino's, you discourage daily use, which necessitates those interested in greater performance to purchase both the $700 and the $1000/$1,420 wheels, for a total outlay of $1700/$2120.
Dude, I've got more tied up in current rolling stock and frames than most people spend on a German luxury car, so the $2,500 (not $3,120) I dropped on those three of the five different wheelsets I purchased for our Calfee (two of which I subsequently sold) is just a blip on the screen. Remember the comment about more money than sense? I have a lot of expertise in this particular area.
Regardless, if you had followed what I've written over the course of the past two years regarding wheels here at BF and in my Calfee Journal you would have known why I purchased these various wheelsets and why the high-end wheels don't see much use.
Why not use them more often? Because pot holes and other road hazards aren't impressed by nor do they care how much coin you dropped on your wheels: they're equal opportunity hazards. Therefore, when you factor in that none of the high-end wheelsets offer ANY benefit for day-to-day use when compared to the much less expensive and easy to repair conventional wheelset, there's just not a risk/reward model that says it's a prudent choice. Frankly, if you want to improve your fitness and performance on race day, use heavier wheels with lots of aero drag as your training wheelset.
So, yes... upping the ante with even more expensive, race-specific wheel sets for "every day use" is IMHO a pretty silly proposition UNLESS you aren't budget constrained, have a spare wheelset or two laying around and just feel like spoiling yourself.
So, it is lunacy to purchase $2000 wheel built that is both light/aero enough to be used for racing, and sufficiently robust to be used on a daily basis?
If you've got the money to burn, knock yourself out... You'll look spectacular.
BTW, why do you even care what I think?? To be honest, I'm only protracting this discussion because I've found it's rather easy to push your buttons...:D
In all seriousness and setting aside the light hearted debate, let us know how it all works out and, really, just do what makes you happy.
Dude, I've got more tied up in current rolling stock and frames than most people spend on a German luxury car, so the $2,500 (not $3,120) I dropped on those three of the five different wheelsets I purchased for our Calfee (two of which I subsequently sold) is just a blip on the screen. Remember the comment about more money than sense? I have a lot of expertise in this particular area.
Regardless, if you had followed what I've written over the course of the past two years regarding wheels here at BF and in my Calfee Journal you would have known why I purchased these various wheelsets and why the high-end wheels don't see much use.
Why not use them more often? Because pot holes and other road hazards aren't impressed by nor do they care how much coin you dropped on your wheels: they're equal opportunity hazards. Therefore, when you factor in that none of the high-end wheelsets offer ANY benefit for day-to-day use when compared to the much less expensive and easy to repair conventional wheelset, there's just not a risk/reward model that says it's a prudent choice. Frankly, if you want to improve your fitness and performance on race day, use heavier wheels with lots of aero drag as your training wheelset.
So, yes... upping the ante with even more expensive, race-specific wheel sets for "every day use" is IMHO a pretty silly proposition UNLESS you aren't budget constrained, have a spare wheelset or two laying around and just feel like spoiling yourself.
So, it is lunacy to purchase $2000 wheel built that is both light/aero enough to be used for racing, and sufficiently robust to be used on a daily basis?
If you've got the money to burn, knock yourself out... You'll look spectacular.
BTW, why do you even care what I think?? To be honest, I'm only protracting this discussion because I've found it's rather easy to push your buttons...:D
In all seriousness and setting aside the light hearted debate, let us know how it all works out and, really, just do what makes you happy.
paulandyael
03-09-10, 09:14 PM
Frankly, just going from your 48's to a very lightweight set of 36h conventional wheels with a 25mm tire would probably feel pretty dramatic, and almost on par with a Rolf as far as first impressions go:
so - any recommendations on hub and rim combos for a "very lightweight set of 36h conventional wheels"? Also, are the HuGi hubs rated well? No one on this thread has even mentioned them...
so - any recommendations on hub and rim combos for a "very lightweight set of 36h conventional wheels"? Also, are the HuGi hubs rated well? No one on this thread has even mentioned them...
paulandyael
03-09-10, 10:31 PM
More... Any thoughts on these VeloCity 40 spoke wheels? http://www.bikemania.biz/VeloCity_Tandem_Disc_Wheels_p/velocity_tandem_disc.htm - $340 seems a pretty good deal, but any better than what I already have?
It's probably apparent that I am in no way as deeply tuned in to all of this as the rest of you - I can hardly find time to ride, let alone keep up with components, etc. Which is why I'm really appreciative of all of the folks who have weighed-in on this thread.
It's probably apparent that I am in no way as deeply tuned in to all of this as the rest of you - I can hardly find time to ride, let alone keep up with components, etc. Which is why I'm really appreciative of all of the folks who have weighed-in on this thread.
Ritterview
03-09-10, 10:52 PM
Clearly, deep carbon rims reduce weight and improve aerodynamics. However I would question their durability compared to an aluminum rim. As you yourself stated there is a potential heating problem when used on a tandem with rim brakes. Adding a disk brake probably negates the weight savings of the rim.Edge rims are reputed robust. The are popular, for example, in mountain bike racing. I am not too concerned about their ruggedness relative to aluminum.
A disc brake does add weight, but I would be getting a disc brake regardless because I'll be doing significant hills. For riders that do moderate hills, carbon rims would prompt the need for disc brakes, and your point is valid. Flat Floridian type cyclists might be able to get away with carbon rims and calipers.
I would love to have some deep Edge rims on WI hubs with 28h (whatever is the most they do). I think that they would be strong enough to handle riding fast, dealing with rough roads, etc.. on our tandem. I think they would feel great and perform well...
Here's why I wouldn't use them on our weekend rides. Braking.
Carbon rims just do not have the same capabilities as their aluminum counterparts when dealing with braking...
I'm with you U'pro, braking rim heat is my greatest concern. Your penchant for taking your tandem up/down hills is legendary, and I don't think we'll be matching it right off. I think our typical route (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/9131220) will be the smooth and relatively flat roads on the Foothill Expressway/Canada Road axis, and for which the Edge rims will be well suited and rim heat will not be an issue.
As we venture more into the hills I'm going to monitor the situation closely. I've got a pocket infrared thermoneter (http://www.advantagehobby.com/product.php?productid=103396&cat=437), that I've been using to measure rim temperature, and I'll be doing some testing to see how hot the front rim gets on descents, so as to get a sense of the temperature curve.
http://www.advantagehobby.com/images/P/D/DYN2529-250.jpg
For routes involving steeper descents and thus prone to brake rim heat, I'll get an aluminum rim front wheel. The front wheel is cheaper, and is easy to change out. So, it will be no big deal to when in doubt go aluminum rim. This will be my climbing front wheel, so it will be shallow rim, and with 32 or 36 spokes, so as to be stiff/stable on descents.
So, yes... upping the ante with even more expensive, race-specific wheel sets for "every day use" is IMHO a pretty silly proposition UNLESS you aren't budget constrained, have a spare wheelset or two laying around and just feel like spoiling yourself.
What is 'race specific'? The hubs? No. The 28 DT-Comp spokes? No. Then it is the carbon rims. There is nothing fragile about Edge rims, so the problem is the cost if damaged. I'll take the risk, which I don't think excessively high. Edge has pretty generous customer service (one user melted a rim (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63507)but got a warranty replacement (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=575463#p575463)). They also have a crash replacement policy (http://www.edgecomposites.com/warranty.aspx), so I'd not be out in the cold. So, I consider this neither silly nor profligate, but better and cheaper than the combination of utility + Rolf/Topo.
BTW, why do you even care what I think?? To be honest, I'm only protracting this discussion because I've found it's rather easy to push your buttons...:D
In all seriousness and setting aside the light hearted debate, let us know how it all works out and, really, just do what makes you happy.
Well geez, TG, I was just posting about the effect of rim depth on wheel strength and out of the blue you opine that wheels such as I was describing were evidence of an owner's personality disorder. I am happy that you can take satisfaction in 'pushing my buttons', but it would be more impressive if you could evoke a reaction with a subtle gibe.
I will update the tandem forum on how it turns out, unless I break or melt a rim on the inaugural Solvang Century ride. That I'll keep to myself.;)
A disc brake does add weight, but I would be getting a disc brake regardless because I'll be doing significant hills. For riders that do moderate hills, carbon rims would prompt the need for disc brakes, and your point is valid. Flat Floridian type cyclists might be able to get away with carbon rims and calipers.
I would love to have some deep Edge rims on WI hubs with 28h (whatever is the most they do). I think that they would be strong enough to handle riding fast, dealing with rough roads, etc.. on our tandem. I think they would feel great and perform well...
Here's why I wouldn't use them on our weekend rides. Braking.
Carbon rims just do not have the same capabilities as their aluminum counterparts when dealing with braking...
I'm with you U'pro, braking rim heat is my greatest concern. Your penchant for taking your tandem up/down hills is legendary, and I don't think we'll be matching it right off. I think our typical route (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/9131220) will be the smooth and relatively flat roads on the Foothill Expressway/Canada Road axis, and for which the Edge rims will be well suited and rim heat will not be an issue.
As we venture more into the hills I'm going to monitor the situation closely. I've got a pocket infrared thermoneter (http://www.advantagehobby.com/product.php?productid=103396&cat=437), that I've been using to measure rim temperature, and I'll be doing some testing to see how hot the front rim gets on descents, so as to get a sense of the temperature curve.
http://www.advantagehobby.com/images/P/D/DYN2529-250.jpg
For routes involving steeper descents and thus prone to brake rim heat, I'll get an aluminum rim front wheel. The front wheel is cheaper, and is easy to change out. So, it will be no big deal to when in doubt go aluminum rim. This will be my climbing front wheel, so it will be shallow rim, and with 32 or 36 spokes, so as to be stiff/stable on descents.
So, yes... upping the ante with even more expensive, race-specific wheel sets for "every day use" is IMHO a pretty silly proposition UNLESS you aren't budget constrained, have a spare wheelset or two laying around and just feel like spoiling yourself.
What is 'race specific'? The hubs? No. The 28 DT-Comp spokes? No. Then it is the carbon rims. There is nothing fragile about Edge rims, so the problem is the cost if damaged. I'll take the risk, which I don't think excessively high. Edge has pretty generous customer service (one user melted a rim (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63507)but got a warranty replacement (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=575463#p575463)). They also have a crash replacement policy (http://www.edgecomposites.com/warranty.aspx), so I'd not be out in the cold. So, I consider this neither silly nor profligate, but better and cheaper than the combination of utility + Rolf/Topo.
BTW, why do you even care what I think?? To be honest, I'm only protracting this discussion because I've found it's rather easy to push your buttons...:D
In all seriousness and setting aside the light hearted debate, let us know how it all works out and, really, just do what makes you happy.
Well geez, TG, I was just posting about the effect of rim depth on wheel strength and out of the blue you opine that wheels such as I was describing were evidence of an owner's personality disorder. I am happy that you can take satisfaction in 'pushing my buttons', but it would be more impressive if you could evoke a reaction with a subtle gibe.
I will update the tandem forum on how it turns out, unless I break or melt a rim on the inaugural Solvang Century ride. That I'll keep to myself.;)
merlinextraligh
03-10-10, 06:02 AM
A disc brake does add weight, but I would be getting a disc brake regardless because I'll be doing significant hills. For riders that do moderate hills, carbon rims would prompt the need for disc brakes, and your point is valid. Flat Floridian type cyclists might be able to get away with carbon rims and calipers.
This raises an interesting question for a fast mountainous ride (or race) would you be better off with aluminum rims, and calipers, or CF rims and discs.
Despite living in Florida, we've done some real descents on our tandem, including in Everest Challenge, and have found that caliper brakes are adequate for our purposes.
Haven't gone to the trouble of comparing weights, but my bet is that a pir of Rolfs with aluminum breaking surfaces, or Zipp clinchers (and cerainly Topolinos) paired with caliper brakes would be as light as CF rims, with disc brakes, and a disc rated fork (assuming we're talking dual disc)
Given the cost and complexitiy advantage the Al rim/ caliper brake system would have, I think there's a reasonabl debate here as to what would be the preferable setup for such a ride.
This raises an interesting question for a fast mountainous ride (or race) would you be better off with aluminum rims, and calipers, or CF rims and discs.
Despite living in Florida, we've done some real descents on our tandem, including in Everest Challenge, and have found that caliper brakes are adequate for our purposes.
Haven't gone to the trouble of comparing weights, but my bet is that a pir of Rolfs with aluminum breaking surfaces, or Zipp clinchers (and cerainly Topolinos) paired with caliper brakes would be as light as CF rims, with disc brakes, and a disc rated fork (assuming we're talking dual disc)
Given the cost and complexitiy advantage the Al rim/ caliper brake system would have, I think there's a reasonabl debate here as to what would be the preferable setup for such a ride.
TandemGeek
03-10-10, 06:17 AM
Well geez, TG, I was just posting about the effect of rim depth on wheel strength and out of the blue you opine that wheels such as I was describing were evidence of an owner's personality disorder.
If you were proposing those very same wheels for use in the Co-Motion Classic or some other competitive event I would have left it alone, pretty much how I weighed in with MerlinXL when he acquired his ZIPPs at a very attractive price. Since it wasn't clear if that was your intention or if you were going to use these at public charity rides, club training rides or the like I figured I drop a hook with some bait to see if you'd bite and, as expected, you did... and hard.
Now, even then I gave you two fairly simple choices as an out for your decision, neither one of which is indicative of a clinical condition, such as lunacy, mental or personality disorders that you have seeminly been interjecting into the debate.
- The first was clouded judgement that was impairing your decision making skills (i.e., not in one's right mind.. look it up).
- The second was a subtle variation on the first theme where "cost was no object".
Often times, these two things go hand-in-hand which explains why there is an exotic tandem and bicycle market in the first place. Again, I have extensive experience in this regard and am very familiar with the inner workings of how one can end up with a tandem that costs five figures. This is a truly mind-blowing amount of money for any bicycle to 99.99% of the rest of the world beyond the realm of the cycling and tandem enthusiast with the discretionary resources to even consider such an expense, particulary for recreational pursuits.
That you chose to jump to a clinical diagnosis is something I can't control nor something I agree with. Free will allows us to do all kinds of things that don't always make good sense when looked at using purely objective data.
If you were proposing those very same wheels for use in the Co-Motion Classic or some other competitive event I would have left it alone, pretty much how I weighed in with MerlinXL when he acquired his ZIPPs at a very attractive price. Since it wasn't clear if that was your intention or if you were going to use these at public charity rides, club training rides or the like I figured I drop a hook with some bait to see if you'd bite and, as expected, you did... and hard.
Now, even then I gave you two fairly simple choices as an out for your decision, neither one of which is indicative of a clinical condition, such as lunacy, mental or personality disorders that you have seeminly been interjecting into the debate.
- The first was clouded judgement that was impairing your decision making skills (i.e., not in one's right mind.. look it up).
- The second was a subtle variation on the first theme where "cost was no object".
Often times, these two things go hand-in-hand which explains why there is an exotic tandem and bicycle market in the first place. Again, I have extensive experience in this regard and am very familiar with the inner workings of how one can end up with a tandem that costs five figures. This is a truly mind-blowing amount of money for any bicycle to 99.99% of the rest of the world beyond the realm of the cycling and tandem enthusiast with the discretionary resources to even consider such an expense, particulary for recreational pursuits.
That you chose to jump to a clinical diagnosis is something I can't control nor something I agree with. Free will allows us to do all kinds of things that don't always make good sense when looked at using purely objective data.
JSNYC
04-10-10, 07:09 PM
great thread. keep the examples of wheels on your tandem comin'. i need ideas for new build!
wife, me, and bike will weigh about 320lbs total.
i seem to chew thru wheels on my road bike with somewhat regularity (usually busting spokes), so the thought of tandem wheels that will hold up for a good long haul has me concerned....:lol:
my current road wheel setup is velocity aerohead and phil wood hubs, and yes, i've busted a spoke or two on those too.
(i live in nyc, by the way, not exactly smooth road heaven....)
wife, me, and bike will weigh about 320lbs total.
i seem to chew thru wheels on my road bike with somewhat regularity (usually busting spokes), so the thought of tandem wheels that will hold up for a good long haul has me concerned....:lol:
my current road wheel setup is velocity aerohead and phil wood hubs, and yes, i've busted a spoke or two on those too.
(i live in nyc, by the way, not exactly smooth road heaven....)
conspiratemus1
04-10-10, 08:49 PM
Ritterview, stop badgering the witness, (even though I think he's enjoying it.)
2frmMI, we know you! (3-Erickson formation in Gananoque: small, medium, large. We were Small.) Welcome!
270-lb. team, we use White Industry Hubs, Velocity Deep V rims, 36-hole in front, 40-hole (with disc brake) in back. Originally supplied with straight-gauge spokes, I rebuilt them with double-butted 2.0/1.8/2.0mm mostly just because I'm fussy. Very happy with them, good durability for unloaded sport touring both days of most weekends and two-four weeks each summer entering 4th season now.
Two things to note:
1) We got mysterious flats on the inner aspect of front and rear tubes in the first few months despite good old Velox cloth rim strips. Hypothesizing that the spoke holes had tiny burrs left over from drilling -- they seemed a tad rough -- I ran a round file around the rim wells followed by emery cloth, remounted the rim strips, and voila: no more flats.
2) One spoke nipple (brass) sheared off right at the head where it bears against the un-eyeletted socket in the rim. Not a big deal to repair since the spoke itself wasn't broken, but never heard of this happening before. A friend ("Large", as above) with the same wheels had the same thing happen to him. This was before I rebuilt them but the as-built tension didn't seem excessive (by feel.) Gouging of the brass nipple against a too-sharp non-eyeletted rim socket?
Have used Mavic MA-2s (36-hole -- I *miss* that rim!) successfully with modified single-bike hubs, too.
2frmMI, we know you! (3-Erickson formation in Gananoque: small, medium, large. We were Small.) Welcome!
270-lb. team, we use White Industry Hubs, Velocity Deep V rims, 36-hole in front, 40-hole (with disc brake) in back. Originally supplied with straight-gauge spokes, I rebuilt them with double-butted 2.0/1.8/2.0mm mostly just because I'm fussy. Very happy with them, good durability for unloaded sport touring both days of most weekends and two-four weeks each summer entering 4th season now.
Two things to note:
1) We got mysterious flats on the inner aspect of front and rear tubes in the first few months despite good old Velox cloth rim strips. Hypothesizing that the spoke holes had tiny burrs left over from drilling -- they seemed a tad rough -- I ran a round file around the rim wells followed by emery cloth, remounted the rim strips, and voila: no more flats.
2) One spoke nipple (brass) sheared off right at the head where it bears against the un-eyeletted socket in the rim. Not a big deal to repair since the spoke itself wasn't broken, but never heard of this happening before. A friend ("Large", as above) with the same wheels had the same thing happen to him. This was before I rebuilt them but the as-built tension didn't seem excessive (by feel.) Gouging of the brass nipple against a too-sharp non-eyeletted rim socket?
Have used Mavic MA-2s (36-hole -- I *miss* that rim!) successfully with modified single-bike hubs, too.
2frmMI
04-11-10, 06:40 AM
2frmMI, we know you! (3-Erickson formation in Gananoque: small, medium, large. We were Small.) Welcome!
Hey conspiratemus! That would be the lustworthy Ti! We just ordered some new wheels: Phils with Fusions, 40/36. No doubt over-reacting to the failed Rolfs, but by darn, we'll finish our tour in Spain this summer! Will PM.
John
Hey conspiratemus! That would be the lustworthy Ti! We just ordered some new wheels: Phils with Fusions, 40/36. No doubt over-reacting to the failed Rolfs, but by darn, we'll finish our tour in Spain this summer! Will PM.
John
mkane77g
04-11-10, 08:20 AM
We use our Rolfs as our primary wheelset, and have 40 holers as a back up. 2007 models with at least 15,000 miles on them. Ridden every weekend, been on 3 tours and they have been bullet proof. We live in Sonoma county and the potholes around here swallow bikes. 290lb. team wt. I was considering another pair of Rolfs as back up's we like em so much.
Retro Grouch
04-11-10, 10:56 AM
Why you want/need lighter wheels . . . and
. . . have you got excess greenish bills in your wallet?
Heck, we all can justify expenditures when it comes to having fun on the tandem!
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Yup, it's the "F" word - "fun".
That's the real reason why we do it, then we have to conjure up some objective reason to justify whatever it is that we decided to do.
. . . have you got excess greenish bills in your wallet?
Heck, we all can justify expenditures when it comes to having fun on the tandem!
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Yup, it's the "F" word - "fun".
That's the real reason why we do it, then we have to conjure up some objective reason to justify whatever it is that we decided to do.
2frmMI
04-11-10, 06:48 PM
Yes, we also were using Rolfs as the daily wheels, until they failed. Were roundly scolded here for being so gullible. We read "super light, but strong enough to be your every day wheels!" ...and believed it. NOT! Maybe your super light team weight at 290 is the difference. We are more "developed" at 330 on a good day. Another interesting thing to ponder though is: first signs of failure appeared after a VERY steep descent on cobble stones (Montalcino,Italy) using a disk brake. For the life of me, I can not trace forces sufficiently to argue that the disk brake was a factor. But pounding stones I understand. In my defense, the Rolfs are rated for disks. Maybe not rated for cobble stone.
We use our Rolfs as our primary wheelset, and have 40 holers as a back up. 2007 models with at least 15,000 miles on them. Ridden every weekend, been on 3 tours and they have been bullet proof. We live in Sonoma county and the potholes around here swallow bikes. 290lb. team wt. I was considering another pair of Rolfs as back up's we like em so much.
We use our Rolfs as our primary wheelset, and have 40 holers as a back up. 2007 models with at least 15,000 miles on them. Ridden every weekend, been on 3 tours and they have been bullet proof. We live in Sonoma county and the potholes around here swallow bikes. 290lb. team wt. I was considering another pair of Rolfs as back up's we like em so much.
joe@vwvortex
04-11-10, 09:42 PM
Yes, we also were using Rolfs as the daily wheels, until they failed. Were roundly scolded here for being so gullible. We read "super light, but strong enough to be your every day wheels!" ...and believed it. NOT! Maybe your super light team weight at 290 is the difference. We are more "developed" at 330 on a good day. Another interesting thing to ponder though is: first signs of failure appeared after a VERY steep descent on cobble stones (Montalcino,Italy) using a disk brake. For the life of me, I can not trace forces sufficiently to argue that the disk brake was a factor. But pounding stones I understand. In my defense, the Rolfs are rated for disks. Maybe not rated for cobble stone.
We're not lightweight - and are a over 330lb team and have ridden our Rolfs exclusively for 5 years. We've even taken them off road several times when the pavement ran out on some rides we've done. We've had one spoke failure in the rear. Wheels fail. I've had spokes fail in all sorts of wheels for all sorts of reasons.
We're not lightweight - and are a over 330lb team and have ridden our Rolfs exclusively for 5 years. We've even taken them off road several times when the pavement ran out on some rides we've done. We've had one spoke failure in the rear. Wheels fail. I've had spokes fail in all sorts of wheels for all sorts of reasons.
Ritterview
04-11-10, 10:27 PM
OT: Not so apocryphal:
"Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash" (Winston Churchill, apocryphal)
Essentially the same quote is listed in The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (http://books.google.com/books?id=o6rFno1ffQoC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=%22Naval+tradition%3F+Monstrous.+Nothing+but+rum,+sodomy,+prayers,+and+the+lash.%22&source=bl&ots=Qxe4AeMn3-&sig=hCZb8XNijUC9Ts-dOSxBVzQ8p64&hl=en&ei=e57CS-bHDoTCngfXl5X3CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Naval%20tradition%3F%20Monstrous.%20Nothing%20but%20rum%2C%20sodomy%2C%20prayers%2C%20and%20the %20lash.%22&f=false):
"Naval tradition? Monstrous. Nothing but rum, sodomy, prayers, and the lash."
Of course, it isn't necessarily OT, as tandems, like ships, have a captain, and stokers might find some similarity in the traditions.
"Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash" (Winston Churchill, apocryphal)
Essentially the same quote is listed in The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (http://books.google.com/books?id=o6rFno1ffQoC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=%22Naval+tradition%3F+Monstrous.+Nothing+but+rum,+sodomy,+prayers,+and+the+lash.%22&source=bl&ots=Qxe4AeMn3-&sig=hCZb8XNijUC9Ts-dOSxBVzQ8p64&hl=en&ei=e57CS-bHDoTCngfXl5X3CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Naval%20tradition%3F%20Monstrous.%20Nothing%20but%20rum%2C%20sodomy%2C%20prayers%2C%20and%20the %20lash.%22&f=false):
"Naval tradition? Monstrous. Nothing but rum, sodomy, prayers, and the lash."
Of course, it isn't necessarily OT, as tandems, like ships, have a captain, and stokers might find some similarity in the traditions.
TandemGeek
04-12-10, 06:38 AM
Yup, it's the "F" word - "fun".
Hmmmm. I would have used the other "F" word - "FARKLES", i.e., Functional + Sparkles
Or, if you prefer: Fancy Accessory Really Kool Likely Expensive
Hmmmm. I would have used the other "F" word - "FARKLES", i.e., Functional + Sparkles
Or, if you prefer: Fancy Accessory Really Kool Likely Expensive
conspiratemus1
04-12-10, 07:37 PM
OT: Not so apocryphal:
Essentially the same quote is listed in The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (http://books.google.com/books?id=o6rFno1ffQoC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=%22Naval+tradition%3F+Monstrous.+Nothing+but+rum,+sodomy,+prayers,+and+the+lash.%22&source=bl&ots=Qxe4AeMn3-&sig=hCZb8XNijUC9Ts-dOSxBVzQ8p64&hl=en&ei=e57CS-bHDoTCngfXl5X3CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Naval%20tradition%3F%20Monstrous.%20Nothing%20but%20rum%2C%20sodomy%2C%20prayers%2C%20and%20the %20lash.%22&f=false):
Of course, it isn't necessarily OT, as tandems, like ships, have a captain, and stokers might find some similarity in the traditions.
Thanks for that. Signature duly corrected.
True, tandems have captains, but like flagships they also have rear-admirals. And while an admiral aboard a warship doesn't interfere with the captain's job to navigate the ship, no captain who wanted to keep his command would ever use the lash (even in a figurative, jocular sense) on an admiral who stepped out of line or offered "helpful suggestions and constructive feedback"!
Essentially the same quote is listed in The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (http://books.google.com/books?id=o6rFno1ffQoC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=%22Naval+tradition%3F+Monstrous.+Nothing+but+rum,+sodomy,+prayers,+and+the+lash.%22&source=bl&ots=Qxe4AeMn3-&sig=hCZb8XNijUC9Ts-dOSxBVzQ8p64&hl=en&ei=e57CS-bHDoTCngfXl5X3CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Naval%20tradition%3F%20Monstrous.%20Nothing%20but%20rum%2C%20sodomy%2C%20prayers%2C%20and%20the %20lash.%22&f=false):
Of course, it isn't necessarily OT, as tandems, like ships, have a captain, and stokers might find some similarity in the traditions.
Thanks for that. Signature duly corrected.
True, tandems have captains, but like flagships they also have rear-admirals. And while an admiral aboard a warship doesn't interfere with the captain's job to navigate the ship, no captain who wanted to keep his command would ever use the lash (even in a figurative, jocular sense) on an admiral who stepped out of line or offered "helpful suggestions and constructive feedback"!
JSNYC
04-19-10, 09:44 AM
does anyone know what the weight limit is on the velocity deep v rim?
website doesn't have it up there. i've emailed velocity...but thought i'd also check here, figuring someone already has the answer...
thanks.
website doesn't have it up there. i've emailed velocity...but thought i'd also check here, figuring someone already has the answer...
thanks.
TandemGeek
04-19-10, 10:01 AM
does anyone know what the weight limit is on the velocity deep v rim?
They have no weight limits, per se...
From Velocity's FAQ's (http://www.velocityusa.com/faq.asp), which are linked off the 'About Us' page.
Q. What is the weight limit for Velocity wheels?
A. Velocity does not have a maximum listed weight limit for our wheelsets, there are just too many variables. Rim, spoke type, rider body type and riding style are all factors. We recommend you contact your local dealer or speak with one of our reps before ordering to ensure the best possible setup.
They have no weight limits, per se...
From Velocity's FAQ's (http://www.velocityusa.com/faq.asp), which are linked off the 'About Us' page.
Q. What is the weight limit for Velocity wheels?
A. Velocity does not have a maximum listed weight limit for our wheelsets, there are just too many variables. Rim, spoke type, rider body type and riding style are all factors. We recommend you contact your local dealer or speak with one of our reps before ordering to ensure the best possible setup.