Commuting - Light and Motion Seca - 700 vs 900 for road riding (plus maybe some mtn biking)?

Does anyone have experience with both for road riding and can tell me if I would have any more problems bombing down a hill at 25mph with the seca 700 vs the 900?

http://www.rei.com/zoom/cc/9c17bdd8-5dac-4f58-9443-9eebe8ec2b61.jpg/150

Seca 700 -
http://www.rei.com/product/776622

Seca 900 -
http://www.rei.com/product/792821

I really like a long throw for road riding. I seem to be kind of picky about it - I had a Dinotte 600 that I felt didn't throw far enough. I like to see something on the road ahead at least several seconds before I get there.

EDIT: I'm interested only in a shaped beam light, if you know of any other battery powered lights with a shaped beam feel free to suggest, but I've already tried several regular "flashlight" beam style lights so I'm good there.



Background - feel free to skip -

I've had a fairly good experience with my Lumotec Cyo and it's shaped beam and am looking to buy a new light for my road bike this spring that puts out more light, throws a little light off to the sides, and blinds pedestrians as little as possible (a lot of my riding is on MUPs and lake trails in Minneapolis). From my research, there doesn't seem to be any truly shaped optics battery lights available, the L&M Seca seems to be the closest battery light I can get.

I'm also interested in it because I've found I really prefer a beam with a good pattern on the ground - adding more lumens with flashlight style bike lights hasn't been very effective for me in increasing my ability to see at night. 1,000 lumens (800 on the bars, 200 on the helmet) doesn't seem to improve my ability to see things more than 10-20% vs a Cyo plus a 200 lumen helmet light. I'm hoping to improve on that.

I've tried the IXON IQ, but I didn't feel like it put out enough light for my taste. Even the Cyo starts to get borderline on the pure black trail pavement, and isn't really enough for me on pure black pavement + rain. I could try 2 of them, but it still doesn't put *any* light off the sides, and I'd like a little when I'm riding home on a dark path. For one thing, these darn rabbits like to sit on the edge of the path at night and one of these days one of them is going to be stupid and try to dart into my wheel and I'd like a chance to see it coming. For another, it just feels kinda sketchy to not be able to see anything off to the sides when riding down a dark trail. It's kinda hard to find something that lights up the sides but doesn't blind pedestrians, but this seems like it might be the closest.

This will be on my rather expensive road bike, so a dynamo hub is not an option - and besides I'd have to add a second battery light over a Cyo anyways so I might as well get it all in one light (well, one on the frame and one on the helmet) if I can.

Magicshine for the win :)
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_41&products_id=138&zenid=tnqunc0u4pvu209p93a8ef78r1

Magicshine for the win :)
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_41&products_id=138&zenid=tnqunc0u4pvu209p93a8ef78r1

Thanks, but I'm looking for something with a shaped beam like the Seca has. I'm also not real fond of what I've read about the build quality and waterproofness, but that's really a whole 'nother topic.

Let me put it this way - I'm getting this light to try something with a shaped beam out, I actually already own a higher powered "flashlight" beam style light, so I'm good there. :-)

I've been so happy with my Ixon IQ that if i were to want to drop a ton of money, I'd get an Ixon IQ Speed along with a secondary IQ Speed. With a pair of them you can aim them both off center a bit to cover more ground. Peter White has a loaner available.

Thanks, but I'm looking for something with a shaped beam like the Seca has. I'm also not real fond of what I've read about the build quality and waterproofness, but that's really a whole 'nother topic.

Let me put it this way - I'm getting this light to try something with a shaped beam out, I actually already own a higher powered "flashlight" beam style light, so I'm good there. :-)

I think you're looking for something that doesn't exist personally, but you're obviously willing to throw money at it to find that out. I will say that the Magicshine out throws the 600 Dinotte, and while certainly not in the same league on quality is hardly throwaway junk.

I've played with enough lights to say that no one makes one that's all that and a box of crackerjack, and I've experimented with everything from a flashlight/lockblock to Lupines. Anymore it's just about how much light for how cheap in my book. There's certainly a minimum (no $50 lights here), but beyond a certain $ point there's really little to no return for the cost difference unless you're competing in a "who has the more expensive light?" contest.

No one has any experience between the 2 lights?

Has anyone used the 700 on the road?

No one has any experience between the 2 lights?

Has anyone used the 700 on the road?

I've used the 700 on the road, and posted a review here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=461341 The "shaped beam" you're expecting may disappoint you, as there's no sharp cutoff. The throw *is* far better than my DiNotte 600L (with narrow optic), no comparison... but for fast riding on debris-strewn highway shoulder with oncoming car headlights to see past, I often added my Dereelight DBS V2 flashlight as a "driving light" to extend my vision forward much further than the Seca could reach.

Anyhow, if you get a Seca, may I suggest transplanting the head onto a modified DiNotte 600 mount. My Seca wouldn't stay put with its rubber-strap mount, even when tightened very aggressively. My review mentions some other shortcomings that you may want to know about. Sorry I have no experience between the 700 and 900... I sold off the 700 and my NiteRider Pro 1200 is arriving via UPS this morning :)

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/mechBgon/IMG_0129.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/mechBgon/IMG_0130.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/mechBgon/IMG_0008-1.jpg

Oh, and if you're looking to avoid "blinding" pedestrians (aka interfering with their night-adapted vision) with the Seca 700 or 900, forget it. Even on LOW, they're going to ruin pedestrians' night vision. Here's a video clip you may find useful, this is the 700 aimed for normal-to-fast road riding:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovlrz5afG3U

Your best bet would be to switch to LOW and also tip the head down (or swivel it to point off the trail, if you use a DiNotte mount that won't tip), but since it can be difficult to see unlit pedestrians until point-blank range anyway, you really don't have time to drop your speed that far and mess with your light. They really need to have at least a small light of their own... I think this should be standard practice on MUPs and should be indicated with signage. But that's another can of worms...

I've used the 700 on the road, and posted a review here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=461341 The "shaped beam" you're expecting may disappoint you, as there's no sharp cutoff. The throw *is* far better than my DiNotte 600L (with narrow optic), no comparison... but for fast riding on debris-strewn highway shoulder with oncoming car headlights to see past, I often added my Dereelight DBS V2 flashlight as a "driving light" to extend my vision forward much further than the Seca could reach.

Anyhow, if you get a Seca, may I suggest transplanting the head onto a modified DiNotte 600 mount. My Seca wouldn't stay put with its rubber-strap mount, even when tightened very aggressively. My review mentions some other shortcomings that you may want to know about. Sorry I have no experience between the 700 and 900... I sold off the 700 and my NiteRider Pro 1200 is arriving via UPS this morning :)

Hey, thanks a bunch for the info!

Paul:

I have a friend who used the L&M Vega for a couple of years, and couple who got the Seca last fall at the beginning of the night riding season. Good lights, but they did have a few problems with mounting, which they addressed by using some thick rubber bands to help hold the light on (rough pavement caused the light to fall off the mount). Other issues were that the battery is integral to the light; and when it eventually wears out, you're needing to replace the light.

I use the L&M Stella 200N... I like the convenience of it in being able to quickly switch from bike to bike when I need it or to take it off outside the coffeshop for security, and I like the long battery life on a single charge. And when I run it in "ninja detection mode" I'm hard to miss ;-)

Just to update this thread, I ended up having a chance to try both side by side.

After some testing, I would say that -

1. Both lights were an improvement in "throw" distance over my old lights (two Dinotte 400L's) for sure.

2. The 700 puts a decent amount of light on the road on high. If I was actually in the woods it would certainly be more than enough. In the city, I occasionally wished it was brighter though it was still brighter than any of the other lights I tried.

3. The 900 almost puts *to much* light out on high. I'd turn it on and my eyes would kinda cringe a little. In the city without traffic, I actually found for the most part I preferred to run it on medium. But - the cool thing was, when I was on the road with oncoming traffic (there's a stretch where I have to ride on a path alongside the road towards oncoming traffic), it's the only light where I turned it on high and oncoming headlights didn't change my ability to see the road. That was pretty cool.

4. I know it's crazy because they supposedly use exactly the same optics, but - I swear the 900 has a slightly wider beam at the long end than the 700. I tried it on a hill with some curves several times, couldn't shake that feeling.

5. Nonetheless though, neither light quite had a wide enough beam to eliminate feeling like I needed a helmet light if I wanted to go all out down a twisty downhill. The beam pattern just isn't wide enough at the long end. I wished it was wider.

6. It's true what other people said - there's certainly no "distinct cutoff". The light does avoid throwing a lot of light up into the trees, but that's not the same as having a distinct cutoff. I have mixed feelings on it - I'd like to have the option for it for flat night mup riding, but on the other hand having used a light with a distinct cutoff it's kinda weird that you can't see anything above the cutoff - it's like, when people walk in front of you you see their feet, then their legs...sometimes I don't notice them until I've covered half the distance to them.

7. Because in reality the beam is narrow, I didn't hit people in the face with the light nearly as much as I thought I might. They really had to be *right* in front of me to hit them with the main beam of the light, and that didn't nearly as much as I thought it might. They usually got hit only with the lesser "fill" lighting. In fact, while I feel like I should do some more riding before saying for sure, I actually found it was a pretty solid beam pattern for lighting people up enough to see them, but not shining a light in their face enough to blind them.

8. fyi, the huge battery pack with the 900 "Ultra" version is difficult to keep attached to your bike. The 6 cell with the "Race" version (the one that comes with the "Race" version of the 700) was just fine, attached to my bike frame, didn't go anywhere. The 9 cell "Ultra" battery just...doesn't attach as well. It's much bigger, noticeably heavier, and while it wasn't "awful", it did nearly fall off my bike once.

9. It's the first light I've used that put enough light off to the sides that I felt like I could see rabbits alongside the MUP that I ride in time. One of these days one of those furry bastards are going to try to run through my wheel and this light was the first that put enough light on the ground off to the sides to see 'em coming'.

10. While the beam pattern is more even than most other lights I've used, it's still a disappointment compared to my idealistic perfectionist expectations. Unlike my Lumotec Cyo which has a specifically shaped reflector and lens to put all the light exactly on the road in the exact pattern they want, the Seca basically uses a narrow main beam with long throw and not a lot of spill, then uses the smaller LED's to fill in the gaps. It works fairly well, but while it covers everything, the beam pattern is brighter is some places and less bright in others (to be fair, with other lights it's more like the beam pattern lights up some places on the road and completely misses other places while the Seca still lights them up). The Seca seems to try to put a brighter section down the middle from the bike, but I would prefer a more even pattern.

11. While doing a comparison, I rode down a street with some minor potholes. You know - the kind that are small holes in the road that make your ride a little bumpy, but you can ride over them ok. With the 700 (and no oncoming traffic), pedalling full out I didn't see all of them and hit them. With the 900, I...think I saw them, but they still weren't easy to see. I dunno what the difference was - the 900 *definitely* put out enough light...it may be that a handlebar mounted light just doesn't have the right angle to really light up the road imperfections. I'm not sure - just wanted to mention it.

12. While similar to most other lights, I found I wished I could program the light controls. You have 2 options with the Seca (either one I believe) - you hit the button and get High, then Medium, then Low, then Flashing, then High again, etc. Or there's "Race Mode", where you get High, Low, High, Low, etc.

However, what I wanted was High, Medium, High, Medium, etc. Couldn't do it. Instead, to go from Medium back to High I had to go through Low (whoa), Flashing (OMG), High. I know the Niterider 1200 lets you program the light yourself - that would be really cool.

You know how it is with any product you review - it's easier to list out the things you don't like than to try to describe what you do like.

Of the bike lights I've tried or own, I think the Seca 900 is a big improvement. It lets me still clearly see the road surface even with oncoming traffic. It's beam pattern is not incredibly obnoxious to pedestrians or oncoming bikers (no one was putting up their hands to block the light, which I've had happen with some other lights, though I think it probably warrants more testing). It lights up off the the side of the road and lets me see critters than any other light I've used (except when I put a wide angle lens on one of my lights - I lit up off to the side, also got the feeling I was absolutely blinding peds or oncoming bikers though, the seca managed to do the lighting up part without the blinding part).

I just found out that Light and Motion has officially announced they're coming out with a Seca 1400, shipping in July -
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?650864-New-Light-and-Motion-Seca-1400-Announced&p=10903178#post10903178

They've redesigned the reflector, saying the new one has a wider spread (one of my complaints) and more throw (would be nice) as well as having the same runtime off a battery the size of the existing 6 cell on the 900 (2.5 hours on high). I'd like the wider beam for riding downhill, and I suspect (though I haven't tried it) that it would help for twisty mountain biking trails. I hope it doesn't blind oncoming peds and bikers on the MUP more. No word on more programmability.

I'm hoping it will let me ride on anything without a helmet light. :-D

Great review of the lights.
I read the background info in the original post and I'm still wondering why they desire to switch away from a dynohub setup? I saw that this is going on your "expensive road bike", but should that really lock you into using a battery-only lighting setup? The weight and drag of the SON20R or 3N80 hubs are very low, which is why they're a fairly popular bit of rando equipment.

My opinion is mostly formed from having ridden a few seasons with the local randonneur club, and seeing dynos on everything imaginable; from loaded touring setups to lightweight carbon speed machines. The Cyo is a great light and you'd be hard pressed to outrun it at 25mph on the road. The Edelux puts out a little more light than the Cyo, and picks up some of the side-slack if you aim it a little further down the road.
I use the Edelux on my rando bike, and have no problems with 35 - 40mph descents in the dark.

Great review of the lights.
I read the background info in the original post and I'm still wondering why they desire to switch away from a dynohub setup? I saw that this is going on your "expensive road bike", but should that really lock you into using a battery-only lighting setup? The weight and drag of the SON20R or 3N80 hubs are very low, which is why they're a fairly popular bit of rando equipment.

My opinion is mostly formed from having ridden a few seasons with the local randonneur club, and seeing dynos on everything imaginable; from loaded touring setups to lightweight carbon speed machines. The Cyo is a great light and you'd be hard pressed to outrun it at 25mph on the road. The Edelux puts out a little more light than the Cyo, and picks up some of the side-slack if you aim it a little further down the road.
I use the Edelux on my rando bike, and have no problems with 35 - 40mph descents in the dark.

I own a bike (my winter bike) that has a Shimano Alfine front hub (same as the 3n80 I believe) and a Lumotech Cyo light. Can I tell the difference between switching it on and off while riding normally? No. But I took the bike on a 70 mile trip over 2 days in the summer (with regular tires on it). I had just been leaving the light on all the time - figured it didn't make a difference. Well, I was getting tired and I switch it off for a while. Then I turned it back on for a while. It seemed to me like while the drag wasn't terribly perceptible, it was there with the light on. No one can say for sure whether it's just a placebo effect, but that was my experience.

In addition, there's no doubt that a dynamo hub is several times heavier than a regular hub (well - vs a regular Dura-Ace level hub).

And there's the fact that I'd have to replace a $500 front wheel with a new and entirely different wheel to put a dynamo hub on it (it's a Mavic wheel with those bladed spokes on it, I asked at the bike shop about replacing the hub with an Ultegra hub because it's quieter when it coasts - they said it couldn't even be done, I'd have to buy a whole new wheel).

But mostly, it's that I have actually tried riding with just my Lumtotec Cyo on the front of my bike, and I found it came up short of my "bike like it was daylight" goals. :-D
1. When biking in the rain, it's not quite bright enough to light up wet black pavement. I know - because I tried it. :-)
2. It lights up black pavement "adequately" in the dry, but I'd prefer something that does a really nice job. To be fair, it really did plenty fine on the 90% of my riding that isn't on newly installed pure black bike trail (when it was dry at least). :-)
3. It's specifically designed to avoid putting out more than a bare minimum of light off to the sides. I couldn't get used to this feeling - on parts of the trails I ride regularly there's rabbits and animals that try to dart in front of my wheel. On other parts of the trail I didn't like the "Wow, I really hope someone doesn't step out from behind that tree because I totally couldn't see them at all" feeling. I had to add a dinotte 200l helmet light before I felt comfortable.
4. You may not have any problems with 35-40mph descents in the dark, but I wouldn't push the light that far myself. I found that there were 2 ways you could aim the light - A, properly so that it didn't hit pedestrians in the face (you can see the line on people as you go by - if it lights up their face it's hitting them in the face), or B so it lit up really far down the road (also, since the top part of the beam is brighter than the bottom part, as well as wider, it REALLY hits them in the face hard if it's to high). And I did have it mounted on my fork, not on the handlebars.
5. It's very shaped beam also requires slowing down around corners, smaller turns it's great, but occasionally I have to slow down on the sharper turns that I would otherwise not slow down for in daylight.
6. I have to admit I don't recall 100% exactly, but I believe it does get a little washed out when there's oncoming headlights.

According to the Peter White site, the Edelux uses the same reflector and stuff as the Cyo, it's just brighter - right? Beam shots look identical - just the Edelux is brighter. Might be enough to negate #2. :-)

There is no doubt I am very, very picky about my lights. Can't tell you how many people insisted I was crazy when I said that my Dinotte 600L didn't go far enough (have enough throw). Though I've talked to one person online who really agreed with me having owned one himself, at least.

But I tried it (on a different bike), and it just didn't work for me - I'm more comfortable with some light off to the sides, and a little more light above the cutoff so I can see people walking towards me on the trail.

I use my Cyo all the time in the winter - I'm not going quite as fast (can't), and often there's snow on the ground which reflects the light rather than absorbing it. And I use my Cyo on my commuter bike where I'd rather just slow down a little than take time charging batteries, taking the light off my bike when I lock it, etc.

But - that's why.

On a side note, when I buy a Seca 1400 to try it out it will be interesting to do a comparison. Lights vs Your Ability To See is suuuuuuuuch a weird topic! The Seca certainly takes the high lumen, "Hit Everything That Needs To Be Lit Up With Light" approach. Something weird happens if you have a good beam pattern and not a lot of light - sometimes you can actually see better than if you have a ton of poorly shaped light. Anyways, that's an entire topic in and of itself - as you can see, haven't I written enough already? lol

Fair enough. I'm very picky about my lighting setup, too. I've spent a lot of time tweaking my setup to get it just right for the purpose and conditions I ride in.

I've never felt that I've had to compromise with the beam shape of the Edelux, as far as cornering or side-spill lighting. Part of that is probably because I have a Princeton Tec Quad on my helmet, and for instances where I deem it necessary, I'll leave that lamp on high power and it does a good job of gap and flood fill where the Edelux falls short.
The big difference sounds like the conditions: I have very few other vehicles to contend with most of the time, and almost never any pedestrians; so I can aim my lights up a bit more for a longer/wider throw. I've got mine mounted off the front of my randonneur rack, so it's just at above the top of the front fender.

Fair enough. I'm very picky about my lighting setup, too. I've spent a lot of time tweaking my setup to get it just right for the purpose and conditions I ride in.

I've never felt that I've had to compromise with the beam shape of the Edelux, as far as cornering or side-spill lighting. Part of that is probably because I have a Princeton Tec Quad on my helmet, and for instances where I deem it necessary, I'll leave that lamp on high power and it does a good job of gap and flood fill where the Edelux falls short.

Yes. Exactly. :-D

There's no doubt a helmet light + bar (or fork) light is a far, far more economical solution than the "hit everywhere you might look with light" approach I'm going for. :D

As I think I mentioned, I just have some money to throw at my "wearing a headlamp is annoying" annoyance. :-D



The big difference sounds like the conditions: I have very few other vehicles to contend with most of the time, and almost never any pedestrians; so I can aim my lights up a bit more for a longer/wider throw. I've got mine mounted off the front of my randonneur rack, so it's just at above the top of the front fender.

Yeah, I really think it makes a big difference in reach when the light is pointed higher than it's probably "supposed" to be. Weird, huh?

Yeah, I really think it makes a big difference in reach when the light is pointed higher than it's probably "supposed" to be. Weird, huh?

There's a huge difference in the light patterns based on where you mount the lamp head on the Cyo/Edelux. Because of the beam shape, it throws a narrow but bright beam which does a great job of illuminating the road and setting up good obstacle contrast if you keep it low. I've seen a few of them on skewer mounts, and that's the best one I've seen for putting light to the pavement. Mid-fork or fork crown mounted is the next best, but if you move it up much higher, I find that you lose out on the ability to generate contrast. It turns into that stereotypically problematic "flat" LED light that puts a nice white/blue glow on everything, but no real shadow/contrast to road hazards. The higher up you get them from the road, the worse they seem to do in rainy conditions for contrast.
The lower you mount the lights, the farther you can cast the beam and still keep the light intensity. But, there's two pitfalls to low mounting: 1) prone to getting the lens dirty. In the winter around here when the streets are wet and grimy, you'll lose light quickly as the lens cakes up with crap. 2) likely to damage. Keeping it skewer mounted, I'd be worried with my ocassional off-road excursions that I'd snag it or bang it on something.

There's a huge difference in the light patterns based on where you mount the lamp head on the Cyo/Edelux. Because of the beam shape, it throws a narrow but bright beam which does a great job of illuminating the road and setting up good obstacle contrast if you keep it low. I've seen a few of them on skewer mounts, and that's the best one I've seen for putting light to the pavement. Mid-fork or fork crown mounted is the next best, but if you move it up much higher, I find that you lose out on the ability to generate contrast. It turns into that stereotypically problematic "flat" LED light that puts a nice white/blue glow on everything, but no real shadow/contrast to road hazards. The higher up you get them from the road, the worse they seem to do in rainy conditions for contrast.
The lower you mount the lights, the farther you can cast the beam and still keep the light intensity. But, there's two pitfalls to low mounting: 1) prone to getting the lens dirty. In the winter around here when the streets are wet and grimy, you'll lose light quickly as the lens cakes up with crap. 2) likely to damage. Keeping it skewer mounted, I'd be worried with my ocassional off-road excursions that I'd snag it or bang it on something.

Yeah, maybe I'm going to have to figure out how to mount my Seca lower so I have better contrast and shadows to point out potholes. :-D

I think you missed an additional drawback to skewer mounts - if you only have that one light, you're going to have some serious wheel shadow and subsequently an entire slice of road you can see because the wheel blocks the light from the light. That's why I've never even tried mounting the Cyo down there.