Foo - Common sense with cars?

From the AP article today about the runaway Prius:
Neibert told Sikes after the CHP caught up with him to shift to neutral but the driver shook his head no. "Sikes told reporters he didn't go into neutral because he worried the car would flip."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius

Seriously? Turning off the car was ok, but putting it into neutral causes your car to flip over? Someone please explain this to me, because I don't even know where to begin explaining that one.

some people are idiots....in this case, I don't know if its the driver or the reporter.

I'd rather put it in neutral to disconnect the power from the engine to the tranny than turn it off. When you turn it off you lose power steering and brakes.

Some people just don't understand how a car works. All they know is how to start it, put it in gear and make it go. I had asked a young driver what he would do and he thought to put it in park, thinking the car would stop (not considering THAT would make the car lose control). So I explained it to him.

Not sure if this is true but someone told me that in another country (don't know which) they are required to take a basic maintenance class to understand the simple mechanics of a car before they are issued their license.

I'd rather put it in neutral to disconnect the power from the engine to the tranny than turn it off. When you turn it off you lose power steering and brakes.

brakes will still have assist until all the vacuum is gone. The steering will be light at speed. No big deal turning off the ignition, as long as the steering doesn't lock...that would suck.

When I was a kid taking driving lesson, they teach you the shift-to-neutral trick in case the throttle got stuck. Guess it used to be a more common thing with mechanical linkages in the old days.

So I didn't think it was a big deal when I heard the alleged runaway issues.

I did practice it in my 2010 Prius and glad that I did, becuase it didn't behave as expected. The trick does work but I found that you have to push the lever to the left AND HOLD for may be a second before it shifts to neutral (while accelerating).

If you just push the lever to the left and do not hold it there, it will not shift.

Anyway, highly recommend people practicing that just in case.

Now, here is the reason that I make this post, it seems from the testimony at the Toyota hearing today, that Smith lady said she did try to shift to neutral and the car ignored it. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/201..._testifie.html

Then there is that famous crash in San Diego. The driver was a CHP officer and he fought it for a few minutes. It's hard to imagine that he didn't know to try shifting to neutral.

So I guess in the case of these drive-by-wire systems, if something goes haywire, then the shift-to-neutral wouldn't work neither. Which is a really scary thing to think about...

It may be possible that the driver of the runaway Prius did try to shift to neutral and didn't know why it did not work.

source (http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-main-forum/76816-shift-neutral-get-out-trouble-not-sure-thing.html#post1070645)

brakes will still have assist until all the vacuum is gone. The steering will be light at speed. No big deal turning off the ignition, as long as the steering doesn't lock...that would suck.

That's what I mean. Manual (if someone is not used to it) or locked steering and stepping on the brakes only to hit a brick on the floor. All it would take is a couple of pumps and the vacuum is gone...Wasn't he going 96mph? Didn't even know a Prius can go that fast. :p

To be fair, the Prius does resemble a clown car, so one would expect it to flip when shifted, or shoot confetti when the horn is honked, etc. I bet the other 17 guys in the car made it hard to concentrate too.

I hate clowns. The scare me.

Seriously? Turning off the car was ok, but putting it into neutral causes your car to flip over? Someone please explain this to me, because I don't even know where to begin explaining that one.

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than THAT!" - George Carlin

That driver was from the left side of the bell curve. Equally sad is that nobody taught him what to do, nor did he RTFM.

If someone has enough time to make a panicky 911 call from their cell phone, they sure as hell have enough time to stop the $@#*%! car.

I say, let them crash.*

(*there's my Airplane! quote for the day, too ;))

Do you see it?

http://www.democracycellproject.net/blog/images/6a00d834520b4b69e201157056370b970b-500wi.jpg

Why people in North America don't drive diesel cars is beyond me (as a former member of your ranks).
Or manual ones, for that matter. All you'd need to do with a stuck throttle is hit the clutch (obviously not an option with a hybrid).
I had an old VW whose throttle stuck when the temp went below -10C. Proper gear selection and clutch usage meant I could go any speed I wanted until it warmed up.

I'm not against Toyota or Pri'i, but think it's going the long way round to achieve the goal of economy.
(step 1: make it as big as a freaking Taurus...)

Do you see it?

The license plate? Yes.

Why people in North America don't drive diesel cars is beyond me (as a former member of your ranks).
Or manual ones, for that matter. All you'd need to do with a stuck throttle is hit the clutch (obviously not an option with a hybrid).
I had an old VW whose throttle stuck when the temp went below -10C. Proper gear selection and clutch usage meant I could go any speed I wanted until it warmed up.
I'm not against Toyota or Pri'i, but think it's going the long way round to achieve the goal of economy.
(step 1: make it as big as a freaking Taurus...)
Manuals because people aren't smart enough to spend the half day it takes to learn, and because it's harder to talk on the cell phone in busy traffic (since that's such a good idea). Even without the clutch you can punch it into neutral and bounce off the rev limiter.
Diesels aren't as popular in North America because the emission controls are tighter, and fuel isn't as expensive as in Europe.

plus "but diesel makes your hands smell funny after filling up" actual quote from a woman when I was filling up my vw tdi and she asked me my mileage .

In fact diesel is more expensive than gas now...and stinky.

I'd rather put it in neutral to disconnect the power from the engine to the tranny than turn it off. When you turn it off you lose power steering and brakes.

Some people just don't understand how a car works. All they know is how to start it, put it in gear and make it go. I had asked a young driver what he would do and he thought to put it in park, thinking the car would stop (not considering THAT would make the car lose control). So I explained it to him.

Not sure if this is true but someone told me that in another country (don't know which) they are required to take a basic maintenance class to understand the simple mechanics of a car before they are issued their license.

Shifting to neutral will probably just cause the engine to over rev and blow followed by the loss of power assist brakes and steering.

In fact diesel is more expensive than gas now...and stinky.

Per gallon yes. Per mile traveled? I dunno.

Hate being behind diesel. *cough, hack*

Remember the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration hoax? I remember back then learning that you can nearly stop a floored Audi 5000 by standing on the brakes. So I have to wonder how this guy got chugging along at 90 mph with a brake system and parking brake at his disposal. I think there's more to his little story, and it somehow involves a nice pay day for him.

You know, I wonder how many of the "common sense" approaches to stopping a car (putting it in neutral, etc.) the guy tried, and if there was an electronics control failure, it just didn't matter. All the common sense is based on the old mechanical controls on cars. An electrical fault could make all the common sense stuff irrelevant. For instance, putting a car into neutral used to be a mechanical thing. Maybe on a hybrid it's just a command to the ECU which, if it's already malfunctioning, it's not going to do anything with the command anyway.

On aircraft, the primary fly-by-wire systems are triple redundant on the command side and dual redundant on the actuation (at a minimum) to account for the failure modes. I don't think the automakers have thought drive-by-wire through anywhere near that much.

Oooooooh that makes sense...

Diesel is still cheaper per BTU, at least up here in Canada. Gasoline has 125,000 btu per gallon, and diesel has 138,700 btu per gallon.

Shifting to neutral will not cause your engine to over rev and blow up, in fact all modern engines are quite happy to bounce off the rev limiter for as long as you can stand the irritating noise. The challenge is getting the transmission to shift into neutral - with electronically controlled transmissions now that isn't as easy as it used to be.



**sorry - Doohickie beat me to it.

Where's a frikken' drag chute when you need one? :mad:

Still, the brake system is hydraulic. And, the problems they are having are effecting conventional and hybrid models. I'm sure the guy did what he could, but in a panicked state of mind people miss the obvious, like not clogging doorways of burning buildings with trampled bodies. The woman who touched off the Audi 5000 controversy in the 80s was a minister's wife who smashed her husband into the garage door and back out the rear wall of the garage, killing him. After swearing it was the car, she later admitted that she was mistakenly on the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal, panicking.

I am going to get a horse and buggy, a pistol and a can of paint. I will paint a target on the back of the horses head.

Been thinking about this issue....perhaps the scientist/engineers have almost perfected AI. This is the result. The machines are starting to fight back. :eek:

Been thinking about this issue....perhaps the scientist/engineers have almost perfected AI. This is the result. The machines are starting to fight back. :eek:
Wow, I knew toyota engineers were good, but not that good!

in Japan Toyota denies all reports of problems with the cars in Japan. the cars just get confiscated.

Diesels aren't as popular in North America because the emission controls are tighter, and fuel isn't as expensive as in Europe.
Diesels can be made clean enough.

The problem is that there are too few diesel choices -- the small diesel cars sold elsewhere simply aren't available here. The few ones here are all larger more expensive cars. Getting a stick with a manual clutch is getting harder and harder.

Shifting to neutral will probably just cause the engine to over rev and blow followed by the loss of power assist brakes and steering.

almost all engines in cars can withstand a good 5mins of hitting the rev limiter before exploding.

From the AP article today about the runaway Prius:
Neibert told Sikes after the CHP caught up with him to shift to neutral but the driver shook his head no. "Sikes told reporters he didn't go into neutral because he worried the car would flip."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius

Seriously? Turning off the car was ok, but putting it into neutral causes your car to flip over? Someone please explain this to me, because I don't even know where to begin explaining that one.
Another reason everyone should have to spend a minimum amount of time on two wheels before being granted a driver's license, they can self select themselves out before we have to deal with them driving a 4 wheeler.

Still, the brake system is hydraulic.

Are they hydraulic on a Prius? I thought they had regenerative brakes (braking recharges the batteries) for most of the slowing, and the last little bit is taken out by a smallish mechanical (hydraulic?) brake system. In fact, if the same electronics box controls both the throttle and the regen braking, I can see where one failure could have taken down both systems and the guy was left with an undersized mechanical brake.


And, the problems they are having are effecting conventional and hybrid models.

True, but I think they all had electronic throttle controls.

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http://www.despair.com/toyota.html

If you order one, use the coupon code "helpicantstopmovingforward" and get 25% off. Supposed to be good for Toyota owners, not sure if they can check.

On aircraft, the primary fly-by-wire systems are triple redundant on the command side and dual redundant on the actuation (at a minimum) to account for the failure modes. I don't think the automakers have thought drive-by-wire through anywhere near that much.

I don't think there's a car in existence that relies upon brake-by-wire.

And the Prius has conventional brakes besides the regen system.

almost all engines in cars can withstand a good 5mins of hitting the rev limiter before exploding.

No kidding -- I'd say that 5 minutes is a minimum. Some carmakers test engine designs by running them at full throttle for long periods of time (100 hours in some cases).

Hate being behind diesel. *cough, hack*

I'll bet you're behind more diesels than you realize.

(sorry, I'm just on a roll.. lol)

Not using a Prius, but a Camry (one of those affected by the recall), Infiniti G37, and a 540-hp Roush Mustang:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

The G37's throttle closes when you hit the brakes -- not good for racing, but great for everyone else. The Mustang has a clutch, but even so, it takes a lot of speed and full throttle to nearly overwhelm the brakes... but they still stopped the car. The Camry, even without the G37's throttle cut and leaving the tranny in gear, still stopped -- and in much less time than it would take to reach a friggin' 911 operator.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/braking-results/3141454-1-eng-US/braking-results.jpg

Diesels can be made clean enough.

The problem is that there are too few diesel choices -- the small diesel cars sold elsewhere simply aren't available here. The few ones here are all larger more expensive cars. Getting a stick with a manual clutch is getting harder and harder.

I agree with this. I believe diesel exhaut is still a problem and nasty stuff. But I can't tell the difference with small modern diesels. Ancient trucks and other big machines which leave a cloud of black smoke behind are another thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
I don't have a clue how these compare to other standards elsewhere. Those are pretty strict for the time. Those standards are one thing and the reality is another. A lot of places are outside that agreement to begin with. Other rural places have many old cars running on something like lamp oil.

Not using a Prius, but a Camry (one of those affected by the recall), Infiniti G37, and a 540-hp Roush Mustang:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

The G37's throttle closes when you hit the brakes -- not good for racing, but great for everyone else. The Mustang has a clutch, but even so, it takes a lot of speed and full throttle to nearly overwhelm the brakes... but they still stopped the car. The Camry, even without the G37's throttle cut and leaving the tranny in gear, still stopped -- and in much less time than it would take to reach a friggin' 911 operator.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/braking-results/3141454-1-eng-US/braking-results.jpg
I'd bet they aren't putting the Mustang in neutral (using that clutch) for the full throttle test. If they were I would expect the car to stop much faster, unless the lack of good manifold vacuum at open throttle messes up the braking more than I expect.

I'd bet they aren't putting the Mustang in neutral (using that clutch) for the full throttle test. If they were I would expect the car to stop much faster, unless the lack of good manifold vacuum at open throttle messes up the braking more than I expect.

Right -- they included it to test the "the brakes are always stronger than the engine" theory, so they stayed off of the clutch for the test. It took a while to stop, but it still stopped anyway.

(ps: I gave a link to the article. It's all explained there.)

Back to the Prius and neutral...

I've driven my mother's Prius a bunch of times and I don't think the gear selector has a mechanical link to the transmission in the same way that a conventional on-the-floor or column shift automatic does. If the electronics are on the blink it might be possible to tap the lever all day and not convince the car to engage neutral.

Back to the Prius and neutral...

I've driven my mother's Prius a bunch of times and I don't think the gear selector has a mechanical link to the transmission in the same way that a conventional on-the-floor or column shift automatic does. If the electronics are on the blink it might be possible to tap the lever all day and not convince the car to engage neutral.

It should shift to neutral if you hold the lever for a second or two.

Just another case of RFTM (not directed at you ;)).

I'm concerned if Toyota is ruined the American cars will revert back to crap again.

you might see an influx in mazda, tata and hyundai cars.

as much as we made fun of korean cars, like hyundai and kia, they're half decent now.

Out of interest in the technology of hybrid cars I did a lot of reading into them and its interesting but scary.. None of the standard automotive knowledge applies with the Prius. The only thing you have that is still mechanical is the steering and even that is very heavily electronically assisted.

The latest generation Prius and other Toyota's Do have a brake-by-wire system. There is NO Mechanical link between the brake pedal and the actual brakes. Mercedes attempted a Brake-by-wire system 10 or so years back.. I believe that ended with Mercedes recalling and replacing all them with mechanical systems.

Next, the transmission is electronic and will not shift all without the car being "ON" In fact if a Prius loses 12V power when its parked or if its in a wreck and loses power in gear it is stuck there with no way to put it into neutral. There is no such thing as pushing a dead Prius by putting it into neutral.

Now on to stopping the prius at high speed... a Prius will only go into Neutral if you hold the shifter wand into the neutral position for several seconds. same thing with shutting the car off while still in gear.. you have to press and hold the start/stop button for several seconds. I'm going to give the guy in the runaway Prius the benefit and guess he tried both but didn't think to hold them long enough to get the car into neutral or off.

Either way I'd like to get a sticker on my car that states "Toyota Drivers: Stay Back 500 Feet"

I'm going to give the guy in the runaway Prius the benefit...

I'm not. He's stupid for thinking that his car would flip over.

One more dead idiot means one less idiot in the world.

Reminds me of Kubricks "2001, a Space Odyssey". HAL: "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."

It should shift to neutral if you hold the lever for a second or two.

I'm still thinking that if the car's electronics are acting up, this won't work. No mechanical linky!


Just another case of RFTM (not directed at you ;)).

I've never read the manual, but then again I've never needed to - Mum's car drives just fine for now (at least it does now that they fixed the clunk in the front suspension).

I'm still thinking that if the car's electronics are acting up, this won't work. No mechanical linky!

So if the entire system crashed, including the ignition switch, transmission, throttle, and brakes -- would the car even keep moving anyway?

Toyota's not the only carmaker falling victim to blameless stupid people, ya know.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudden-unintended-acceleration-sua-analysis-2008-toyota-lexus-ford-gm.html

Back to the Prius:
http://priuschat.com/news/software-update-fixes-prius-brake-issue

If you have a pre-January 2010 Prius (or 2004-2009) and experience this "issue", simply press harder on the brake pedal and continue as you normally would.

Shifting to neutral will probably just cause the engine to over rev and blow followed by the loss of power assist brakes and steering.

I am not very familiar with Prius's, but I would be astonished if they didn't have rev limits set into the PCM. As far as I know, that's pretty well standard with any factory tuned automatic transmission EFI system.

I can't understand why it wouldn't work to shift to neutral. Is there some sort of cheap and unreliable electronic linkage between the shift lever and the transmission?

I hate clowns. The scare me.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/pennywise_preview.jpg
Don't worry, "IT" doesn't own a Prius. :thumb: