Road Cycling - I'm a runner. How accurate are these perceptions about cycling?

I am at heart a runner and plan on being a runner, primarily, for the rest of my life. I've had a rocky two years with some great successes but more failures, almost all due to being hurt. To race well running at the distances I do (5k-half marys now) you need to put in mileage... 70+, preferably 80 - 90 and if your body handles it 100+. anyway, i've had periods where i can run 80 for months. but the last half a year i've been hurt and have had trouble building up to anything respectable so i figured it was time to take a different approach to training, even it's for a half a year.

so i bought a bike. when i get back to school, i'm gonna get in the pool to pool run and swim, and try to lift 4 times a week (light stuff, to work on core strength and strengthen muscles to help avoid injuries).

i plan on riding 4-6 times a week for a good while, basically putting in aerobic time to keep me fit and keep the pounds off. i might try my hand at some races to see how i fare.

one thing that really took me aback when buying a bike was how expensive the sport is. and how gear obsessed cyclists are. i couldn't justify spending more than 800 on a bike. i got a new cannondale r400 with entry level shoes and clipless pedals for 850 total after taxes. anyway, how accurate am i in saying this:

1. if i train harder and ride harder, with more heart, my bike wont matter as much as my body. gear is fun, but will someone with a 5 grand bike beat someone with a 1 grand bike if theperson on the one grand bike trains harder, eats better, and has more guts on the race course? this isn't rhetorical, i am really asking this. how much does bike matter when racing?

2. put in more miles, and in general, you will race better. in running, one can log a fair amount of slow miles and improve greatly. of course, you can't neglect speed and specific training, but how much does miles matter? when i ran, i put in more miles, and could beat the pants off some people who were die hard 30 mile a weekers who trained "for speed." and i kept improving myself.

3. training with fancy stuff like GPS, HRMs is overrated. don't worry about exact distance so much as getting your time on your feet in. and what good is htat HRM when you train three times a week at a comfortable pace? i can feel it when i'm working too hard running, or when i'm slacking. on race day, it won't matter whether i have a resting HR of 40 or 60. it won't matter if i trained in my zone. it matters if i'm ready to race. (note that i'm not saying to ignore work effort. but do you always need a HRM to tell you how hard you are working???)

4. rest is important. you can't train hard everyday and race your best when it matters. leave yourself on the race course, not on the roads training. but still train hard.

none of these statements are meant to be declarative. cycling is such a different sport to running, and i'm learning this everyday. but how accurate would most of what i wrote just be? one thing i love about running is it doesn't matter how much you spent on your shoes or spikes. what matters is your fitness and your heart. i really want this to be true with cycling to a very high point.

how wrong am i?

I used to run marathons too. I had to back off when I tore up both the tendons in both ankles. What I have learned since then is that I was running more than most of the guys that I was running against, but was middle-of-the-pack at best because I was self-coached and had a crummy training program. Today I believe that a good coach would have had me running faster by training less, working lots harder on the hard days and much less hard on the easy days.

The program that you outlined sounds to me like a receipt for disaster and the proof is that you say you are suffering frequent injuries. I suspect that you'd do better with a coach.

I used to run marathons too. I had to back off when I tore up both the tendons in both ankles. What I have learned since then is that I was running more than most of the guys that I was running against, but was middle-of-the-pack at best because I was self-coached and had a crummy training program. Today I believe that a good coach would have had me running faster by training less, working lots harder on the hard days and much less hard on the easy days.

The program that you outlined sounds to me like a receipt for disaster and the proof is that you say you are suffering frequent injuries. I suspect that you'd do better with a coach.

well, thanks for answering my questions about cycling:)

anyway, i dont wont to start a debate about running training on a cycling forum, but i feel it necessary to respond. i admit, my training program has obviously not worked great for me as i'm posting on a cycling forum telling people i am not running well. however, i will make the point that while running miles, i turned into a completely different runner. i went from a midpacker to almost always placing in my age group, and sometimes being top 5-10 overall. i used to run "hard on my hard days and easy on my easy days" and i never consistently ran well. with miles, when healthy (key note there) i never had one bad races, and ran PR after PR.

the olympics are on this week. those guys out there aren't running well by training less. the 10k was on yesterday. a guy named haile geb won both the last two olympics. he runs 120-150 mpw. paul tergat just set the marathon WR. he ran up to 200mpw while doing it. every guyin that 10k field is running high mileage. every marathoner in the marathon field is running high mileage. paula radcliffe ran 130-140 when she set her 2:15 WR for the women's marathon.

a miler might be able to train well on "low" mileage. seb coe alleged to run 50 mpw. he also didn't log his slow warm up and cool down miles. throw that in and he's pushing 80,90 in the off season.

if you want to run well in the long distances, you put in miles. and almost every runner gets hurt, that's part of the game. then you readjust your training (as i am). but i, personally, am not willing to settle for 100% injury free running and mediocre performances. right now i am finding a balance and a program which will keep me healthy and lead me down a road to running a lot of miles and a lot of fast times. there are plenty of mid packers who listen to runnrs world, run 30 miles a week and do their interval training and their long run and they stay healthy. but they, well, they suck.

anyway, i could go on about this debate forever, and believe me, it's been done over and over on teh equivalent running forums. but to quote one coach, "the statistical evidence from the larger laboratory of real-world trial and error, head-to-head competition and marks on the stopwatch points overwhelmingly to the fact that one change - the most important change of all - takes place with higher mileage: improved performance."

One thing about $1k bikse and $5K bikes. Sure you can train harder then the guy with the $4000 avantage over you but I'm sure that guy is training just as hard to justify his bike purchace with his wife. ;)

One thing about $1k bikse and $5K bikes. Sure you can train harder then the guy with the $4000 avantage over you but I'm sure that guy is training just as hard to justify his bike purchace with his wife. ;)

haha, point taken.

This forum has many ex-runners with bad knees and torn tendons. I used to do a bit of running until my knees started swelling.

Of course your body is the most important single thing.

But. a few grams off the weight of the bike and wheels will be the difference between two otherwise equal riders.

A person recently related (in a linked article from this forum) how he got a 3% increase in power (as measured by the appropriate device) by simply getting a better fit on his bike. 3% over a 100 mile ride would equal coming in 3 miles ahead of someone else otherwise equal.

Really important in biking, but not so much in running, is wind resistance, which is one of those force factors which goes up as the square of the increase in resistance. Proper bike position, clothing, etc., can make a tremendous difference.

Tire rolling resistance is critical, as is appropriate gear ratios.

I don't know how overrated you think HRM's, etc., are, But I bet Lance uses everything he can get and more.

That 5 grand bike will likely be significantly lighter, may have better handling - and perhaps sports specific handling (triathlons or time trials for example) and a frame perhaps custom designed to get the very best out of your body. It truly will make a difference, if you are into competition.

For just everyday riding, the $1,000 bike will be just fine.

I think good coaching is probably the MOST significant factor. Don't train harder, train smarter.

Depends on your goals.

Hope you can run into your 80's. I know that I can bike into my 80's and 90's - hey I am getting pretty close, and we have folks in this forum in their 80's.

Have fun while you are biking. It is a great activity. :D

This forum has many ex-runners with bad knees and torn tendons. I used to do a bit of running until my knees started swelling.

(snip)

Have fun while you are biking. It is a great activity. :D

thanks :)

i'm sure if i get into cycling i'll get the bug and upgrade upgrade upgrade.

for tris i have a feeling that the bike i have will be okay for a long time. i'm thinking of the time my friend, who was a damn good swimmer (though he didn't train at all for swimming at that time) and a good runner did a tri. he beat everyone up in the pool and lost a lot of ground on the ride. but he was riding a mountain bike :) he picked up all the ground on the run and won handily. a road bike will at least do better than that.

I think that you should stick with your plan and your budget and not worry about excessive amounts of equipment for your cycling experience. The saying "It's not about the bike" sums things up. Your overall level of fitness will be the primary determinant in how fast and how much endurance you have as a cyclist.
With regard to whatever bike you get, like running shoes, a proper fit will be most important and to that make sure it has a saddle you can live with.

In the professional ranks, since the abilities of the riders are so closely matched, a lot more scrutiny is placed on equipment since a difference of a second or two can be decisive at this level. Although there are legions of cycling equipment buyers who have everything, it is not necessary that you join them unless you've maximized your fitness level and feel "the need for more speed" that only more expensive equipment can provide. If we look at other sports like golf, we find that there are many adherents that own the latest equipment, but few that can actually utilize the potential due to their average skill levels.
In cycling, it is much the same. If you are as fit as you sound, do not be surprised to find stunned looks on some rider's faces as you pass them on your less expensive equipment.

That being said however, there are certain items of equipment I find absolutely necessary. My list will vary I'm sure from others. On my list I would include the following: helmet and helmet or eyeglass mounted rear view mirror (for safety), eyewear (eye protection), bike shorts (comfort), gloves (comfort/hand protection if you crash, cycling shoes (comfort/efficiency), waterbottle(s), frame pump, tire repair kit, spare tube and highly recommended but not absolutely necessary, clipless pedals. Since bikes are composed of many moving parts, learning a few things about maintenance is helpful. Paramount in this area would be learning how to replace and/or repair a tube. If you can do this, then you will feel confident cycling outside of your immediate neighborhood. Some of the best rides and scenery are in remote areas. I also carry a cellphone. I only needed it once..to have my wife pick me up after breaking a spoke in a 20 spoke rear wheel which rendered it unrideable.

Lastly, also at one time having been a runner (in the winter,when riding was difficult) I can tell you that cycling is much easier on the joints and body in general than running. You mention in the early part of your posts injuries associated with running. Aside from crashes, cycling is not hard on the body and the time needed for your body to recover from hard efforts is much shorter than running.

I think you will find cycling to be a very rewarding activity and a great addition to your fitness program.

twicearunner, welcome to cycling! You made a great post.

I used to be a runner but if I'd have known then what I know now I would have stopped running and started cycling more much sooner than I did. Of course we're all different and that's just me. One of the things that is different in cycling is that there is so much more strategy and teamwork involved. With running it's pretty much a pure endurance contest while in cycling that's just one aspect. Following are just my opinions for what they're worth.

1. Will a $5000 dollar bike make a difference? Yes, but it will be very slight. The biggest difference is by far the motor, there's no replacement for displacement. I've amazed myself with this very point recently as my wife and I just purchased a tandem. I've ridden it quite a few times solo over my usual training route (baby sitter issues) and am not that much slower on the 40lb 40 spoked wide tire disc braked tandem than on my 18lb race bike.

2. Time in the saddle is very important for competitive cyclist, probably more so than for runners. What you have to be careful of is too much intensity not too much time. It is possible to work very little on a bike while a runner is working relatively hard even when going slowly. This allows a smart cyclist to log long hours without over doing the intensity and burning out. When I ran I'd build a base of 100 slow miles a week for 10 weeks before the season began. I'd always start the season strong but would often wear down midseason probably because of the intense daily workouts during the season. If I had continued the long slow distance and saved the high intensity for the races I would have done much better, especially at the more important races that come at the end of the season.

3. Heart rate monitors and power meters can be useful training aids. The heart rate monitor for making sure you aren't working too little or too much. The power meter for improving riding position and efficiency. Together they can help to measure your fitness level and whether it's going up or down. You don't need either of them though.

4. Rest matters, you only improve while you're sleeping.

"the statistical evidence from the larger laboratory of real-world trial and error, head-to-head competition and marks on the stopwatch points overwhelmingly to the fact that one change - the most important change of all - takes place with higher mileage: improved performance."

So explain how that improved performance thing works when you're injured.

One of the things that is different in cycling is that there is so much more strategy and teamwork involved. With running it's pretty much a pure endurance contest while in cycling that's just one aspect.

And that's the truth!

Often, when trying to expain group-riding to a non-cyclist, I will say that pack riding is a cross between running and playing chess.

thanks for all the great info. i've had fun riding in the past and it's a lot more fun on a new bike. and climbing hills on a newer bike with the clipless pedals is a hell of a lot easier than on this old heavy road bike my dad inherited from his days of working in a bike shop in the 60s and 70s!

i am kinda poor right now, but eventually i'm going to try to buy everything in the list given. my bum is sore from riding in running shorts. i'm trying to pick up some cycling shorts on ebay (new ones :p). i will suffer until i either get used to having a sore bum or they come in the mail. i would like a computer, an airpump to ride with, and a bag to hang from my seat post (i'm going to get this tomorrow, because it would be nice to carry a cellphone, especially riding around where i go to school. there are miles of beautiful paved trails, but they can get remote out there). and i experienced the need for glasses when a bug flew in my left eye yesterday, and it's been slightly uncomfortable which makes reading difficult. hehe.

i had a lot of fun on my ride today. i rode a hillier route into annapolis, md near where i live, and cycled the roads around there, along the water. i like the hills now. it reminds of what it feels like to be really working.

i've only fallen twice. (maybe i should change my screen name to twice a faller?) both times while sitting still and forgetting my foot was clipped in, trying to reach to the ground and going right over onto my side. embarassing with the cars and people around. but i think i'll learn.

hopefully my enthusiasm sticks around. tomorrow i'm gonna go for a longer ride.



So explain how that improved performance thing works when you're injured.

well, physiologically, as you put in the miles your body undergoes changes. without getting too technical, you develop mitochondria, increase your aerobic band, lose weight, strengthen muscle groups, improve your speed, improve your form and economy and everything else that comes with training. when you get injured, obviously a lot of that fades a little, but it comes back quickly. and some stuff, like enymatic changes and mitochondria development will stick around for a good amount of time.

though, consistency in training is key. i've been having trouble putting in a lot of training in just running, obviously. i've been inconsistent, and i'm not denying that. and that's due to various reasons--bad diet, muscle imbalances and weak core strength and training too fast. i've never had any joint problems or stress fractures (what everyone brings up when you say "i'm injured!"). a lot of my problems are correctable. so i'm getting on the bike to keep in shape, running less, working on a lot of my strength and muscle imbalance problems, to hopefully get back into being more of a runner and less of a cross trainer.

the biggest culprit in my running injuries has been intensity. i'm sure this happens with cyclists (but with less of a consequence) but once i got a good base of mileage and i start getting in great shape, you start wanting to "play" with your fitness. meaning, youre on a long run that you know and you tell yourself you're going to do at 7:30 pace. but 6:30-6:45 feels so easy, feels so good that you can't help but run fast because it's FUN. but after 15 miles at 6:30-6:45 when you're a mid 16 5k runner in PR shape, that's a real stress on your body. all of my injuries have come from mixing intensity with miles without proper rest. and the factors i listed above do not help at all. it's not always the miles that are the problem, but how you run those miles.

i've always thought the most important job of the coach is to hold a runner back. and in that respect, a coach would have helped. but after a couple if injuries i am learning my limits and learning what to do and not to do. i'm only 19 (well 20 in less than a month) so i've got a good 15 years left to train full bore and become a hell of a runner, cyclist or triathlete, whatever happens. a couple injuries while i'm still growing and still a college undergraduate, though depressing now, is just a blip in the long run of finding out what my body can do.

all great athletes, especially runners get injured. to be the best you have to teter on the edge of doing too much and doing just the right amount. you need that edge. and while trying to get that edge, you step over it, and you sometimes get hurt. but you sometimes do things you never, ever thought your body capable of doing.

so how will performance improve from being injured? well, in the short term, it won't. but in the long term you learn lessons, you learn what it takes to train like a champion and do it right. and injuries do give your entire body a rest while it heals your one problem area which helps in the long term sometimes. and they can make you hungry to come back, do it right and improve.

anyway, thanks for all the advice and feel free to keep it coming.

1. True, well, except for the tires -- you've gotta have "goodish" tires -- and if you're bike is twice the weight of some elses, you'll be a bit disadvantaged going up hills. Essentially, your perception is spot-on. I think that our love for the equipment clouds our judgement, so we're continually convincing ourselves that we need it because it's faster. :)

2. In my opinion, intensity is much for important than just logging miles. Without going right into the pyhsiology, I'm sure is has a lot to do with the higher strength component involved in cycling compared to running. (that's a wishy-washy explanation)

3. GPS: forget about it...... HRMs probably are overated but I find them very useful -- perhaps not when they are a first purchased, but after a few months you get to know exactly what you're threaholds are, then you can use it. Sometimes the perception of your effort can be "off", which is where are HRM or a power meter can be useful. There are days when you're sure you're hammering, but you look down and find your HR is only %70. It also works the other way: sometimes you feel great chasing some guy along the road, with adrenalin pumping through you, and you think, "wow, I'll blow his doors off", then you look down, and the HR is at %95. So, HRMs can help clear up dodgey perceptions of exertion.

4. True; you can't train hard every day. Most guys probably have only 3 or (maximum) 4 hard days a week. Personally, I think "easy" days or "recovery" rides are a bit overated. I've read all the science, but I feel better after a complete day off, probably because I find it hard to ride at a snail's pace........heresy :)

dude, get a pair of biking shorts. it makes a world of difference. REI has cheap ones i'm sure. the ones around $50-70 are in fact better than the cheapest pairs, but even the cheapest is better than running shorts.

for sunglasses, get safety glasses at your local hardware store. cheap and effective and well-built. flashier ones are possible at the local drug store.. (i like speedo sunglasses, in fact i bought 2 of the same model, lol. but i'm sure REI has cheap ones too.)

'puters are nice, any kind of pump is good (i like the thin mini road pumps), you don't need one that goes to 120psi, just pumping your tire up to 60psi is good enough to ride home with.

and finally about the seat bag; i have one and wouldn't go without one, but there are options like wearing jerseys and putting all ur stuff in the jersey pockets, or getting cellfone holders, or a frame bag. quite a lot of people opt for the stuffing-jerseys thing.

sd

Well, you have quite a few issues.

1) The $1K bike vs the $5K bike. At $1K you can get a decent bike equipped with Shimano 105 components. Shimano 105 gives you about 99% of the performance of ANY bike excepting really specialized applications like time trials and track bikes. Now I think a top end bike is about 4 lbs lighter then an entry level bike. If you are a pro and in a mountain stage that can make a difference.

However, I am a recreational rider. I was talking with a friend (another recreational rider) who back in his racing days went to a top level camp. They told him that his racing weight was 15 lbs less then his current weight and at his current weight he was reasonably slender (a flat stomach). It is rather absurd to see recreational riders who are 20, 30, 40, and 50 lbs overweight spending thousands of dollars to save a few pounds when so much more could come off of the engine. Of course, you are a runner and that means you probably are not significantly heavy.

In our club, we have had a fair number of our strong "B" riders get top of the line bikes in hopes that that would let them keep up with the "A" riders (many of whom do not ride top of the line stuff). Those guys find that they are still "B" riders, just "B" riders on fancier bikes.

Performance on a bike is much more about training, conditioning, and talent then it is about the bike.

Do miles help? They sure do. One thing is bicycling in a competitive sense has a bigger range of skills then long distance running. Long distance running is primarily about being able to run along at your speed and just keeping it up (a bit like a time trial on a bike). But cycling has other challenges:

1) Surviving in traffic. There are things a cyclist needs to know to be able to survive in a world of inattentive drivers.
2) Road handling. Cyclists need to know how to corner and descend.
3) Pack Skills. Riding is a pack at a high speed is a whole other world.
4) Paceline Ettiquette. It is nice not to get killed by your fellow cyclists for a faux paus.
5) Sprinting. Pacelines and packs will surge and if you don't have some sort of sprint you will get "dropped".
6) Climbing. Going up hills is a whole different sort of thing and otherwise you will get "dropped".
7) Mechanics. Unless you have a personal mechanic (I have a friend and her boy friend does her bike mechanics but I suspect that she recompenses him in ways that I would sooner not attempt) and a personal SAG vehicle, you will need to learn basic stuff here or be willing to walk a long ways.
8) First Aid. A cyclist needs to learn about the joys of dehydration, heat exhaustion, sunstroke, road rash, bonking etc.
9) Endurance. A cyclist obviously needs this.
10) Power. This is more about being able to sustain a high speed.

So a cyclist needs a consider number of skills and areas of expertise. It takes time and miles to learn these things. Also you need to keep you body in different kinds of shape from sprinting, to high speed cruising, to hill climbing etc. So it just takes quite a bit of training. For me though, bicycling is fun so I do it for that reason and if I get the other stuff, fine and good.