Northeast - The End of Ronkonkoma-Greenport LIRR Service/Beginning of an Awesome New Rail Trail??

I read yesterday that the LIRR is threatening to discontinue its already limited service between Ronkonkoma and Greenport, Long Island, which (for those of you not from Long Island) is a station at the far end of LI's north fork.

I've got mixed feelings about this because I recently discovered this train as an alternative way to get out to Greenport when starting one of my rides around the east end of Long Island or up to CT and Rhode Island. It saves gas, wear-and-tear on the car, and the stress of worrying about the safety of the car while I'm out on the bike; however, it's quite expensive and limited to one train out/one train back per day. And if the pony-tailed conductor tells you at the Greenport end that he doesn't want any more bikes on the train, you either have to smear him to let you on - or sleep at the train station that night.

They will probably never follow through on closing this line, but if they do, I'm thinking this might make a really awesome rail trail! It's about 50 miles and passes through some fairly scenic areas, including Long Island Wine Country. It seems to me, though, that many riders in our region prefer speed over scenery, choosing to use the LIE service road rather than the much more pleasant roads along the north shore to get out east.

What's the general consensus here? Would a rail trail along the Ronkonkoma to Greenport right-of-way get more Long Islanders on bicycles -- and would it bring more tourism to Long Island's suffering east end/north fork?

I took that train out to Greenport about 6 years ago (July 4th weekend) and thought it was a lovely ride. Once I got out to Greenport I noticed a TON of cyclists of all ages and interests. I though..."Hmmmm, what a wonderful place to ride." I have no idea about the closure of this train line, it seemed to me that, at least in the summer, there was more than one train a day running into and out of there, of course that could have changed. There are probably a lot of people who do not even realize what they are missing, which is a shame.

Hey, Baj.

I'm off topic a bit, but did you ever ride any length of the Don Valley path in Toronto?

>>>Once I got out to Greenport I noticed a TON of cyclists of all ages and interests.<<<<

It's a great jumping-off point for a ride to Sag Harbor or to Orient Point, where you can ferry on to New London and continue up the coast to Narragansett or Newport, Rhode Island. You'll find every kind of rider out there, from casual to really serious. Of course, you can drive out to Greenport and park pretty easily in the lot adjacent to the ferry, but there's something cool about not having a car to fall back on. Too bad lodging is so rare and so dang expensive out there.

In todays world of being green how could they even think of stopping the train?

The MTA offers basically no service and therefore people don't ride the train.

The 4:30+/- Cannonball on the Montauk Branch is used by many riders but even that line is poorly served.
Look at all the buses that run into the City. I believe they get subsidies? If they do they should be dropped and the funds used to support the railroad.

And if the pony-tailed conductor tells you at the Greenport end that he doesn't want any more bikes on the train, you either have to smear him to let you on - or sleep at the train station that night.



Will "smearing" the conductor actually get you on an LIRR train once it's"full"? How much is a good smear? $5? $10? $20?

>>>Will "smearing" the conductor actually get you on an LIRR train once it's"full"? How much is a good smear? $5? $10? $20?<<<<<<

First of all, I'm only talking about this particular train; second, this is hearsay, so I should have kept my mouth shut.

and the ponytail. hearsay too?

>>>and the ponytail. hearsay too?<<<

No. The conductor on this train has a long, gray ponytail. He looks more like one of the Doobie Brothers than a railroad employee. Never had a bad experience with him myself.

I for one would love to see that made into a rail to trails. Although not for the last couple of years we frequently drove to Westchester to ride the North Trailway Putnam rails to trails. It would be nice to do a long ride without worrying about cars.

~ JoAnn

>>>It would be nice to do a long ride without worrying about cars.<<<<

However, unlike much of the Westchester County Trailway, this one would be dead flat. 'Could get a little boring after a while.

Anyway, don't get excited. This is all a very big what-if!

Hey, Baj.

I'm off topic a bit, but did you ever ride any length of the Don Valley path in Toronto?

Wel no I haven't yet. I just moved up here (to Burlington) in December during the first Northeast Snowstorm. My bikes are still at a friend's house in New Jersey. They are bringing them up when they come visit end of the month or I will have to go get them. I have not yet heard of all of the trails up here, but I know there are many nice ones. I do agree with you about Toronto and it being a great city. I used to live in NY and find Toronto just as dynamic.

Cheers,

Brian J.

The conductor on this train has a long, gray ponytail. He looks more like one of the Doobie Brothers than a railroad employee. Never had a bad experience with him myself.

LOL! I know EXACTLY who you are talking about! (I ride LIRR everyday) He’s a good guy… I think an appropriate “smearing” might include an impromptu acappella version of “Black Water” :D


But back to the topic; I would welcome the change to a rail trail. I’d take scenery over speed for sure…riding on the LIE service road is a death sentence, IMO.

>>>>I just moved up here (to Burlington)<<<<<

The "Don" is a highway in Toronto proper. It's got a bike path for a good length; nothing special, but I always wanted to ride it. There's also a bike path along the Gardiner Expressway/Lakeshore Drive that takes in great views of Lake Ontario. And, of course, Toronto Island (accessible from the base of Bathurst Street) is good for riding.

I'm assuming, because you responded to this post, that you don't mind bike paths. If you do, tbere are always plenty of roads to cycle in Toronto.

Have you been to Tucker's Marketplace Buffet in Burlington? That's one of my favorite places ever.

>>>LOL! I know EXACTLY who you are talking about!<<<<

Again, I know nothing about the guy, except that he seems to really "own" his train. The "smear" comment is just a rumor I heard from some kids who ride that line regularly. Mostly, I used it to illustrate the serious consequences of not being able to get on that last 6pm train out of Greenport on a mid-summer night.

The "old" schedule had more then one train per day, but it costs the LIRR tons more to operate then it can ever generate from ticket sales, so Bye Bye.

It's really a vestigial rail line whose original purpose was to compete with steamship lines between Boston and NYC and has subsequently lost it's usefulness. You could make the case for the Montauk branch as well, even though Montauk gets the Hamptons crowd and as such is more popular. Still, the Jitney does a better job and is more economic to run.

Mind you that I am totally in supprt of rail service over auto usage, but in this case.....

Doubt it'll ever become a Rails-to Trails, even though I LOVE the concept, as it's politically unpalatable to lose - forever (if you tear up the tracks and pave it), an intact and functioning rail line.

I do have to wonder though that down the road the service will be discontinued in it's entirety and will the LIRR actually allocate finds to keep the line functional "just in case". Doubtful. Then it becomes a RTT candidate, but this is decades away.

SB

Isn't it still used for freight as well?

"Isn't it still used for freight as well?"

I believe that it is, at least I've seen freight cars in Mattituck, can't say if they are just abandoned or functional. Trouble with the north fork is it's mostly all residential with occasional farms and vineyards, not a lot of heavy industry and I doubt there's a market for freight. Other area's on the Island do see a lot of freight traffic, enough it seems for the Powers That Be to want to build a rail tunnel uner NY harbor from NJ to connect to the Bay Ridge LIRR line to faclitate better freight movement to Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk.

SB

>>>>>Isn't it still used for freight as well?<<<

I can't say for sure whether this particular line is still used for freight. If anything, it's just for eastern Long Island - and not Boston-bound (via Stonington, CT) like in the 1800s. In all my trips to Greenport, I've never seen anything but ferries pulling in and out of the harbor adjacent to the train station. Other than daytrippers to Greenport, I think the station is used mostly by people headed to Shelter Island. I wonder what THEY would do without train service out there?

I wish there was a Port Jefferson connection to the north fork. That would be pretty cool. It might bring more ridership as well. The Port Jeff line strikes me as stopping in the kind of places (Stony Brook University, for example) that would have people wishing to go further east on the weekend. Would this cut in service also mean that Riverhead would be cut off from train service? Meh, Long Island is insane--like stepping back into the 1950s. Either you have a car or you can't live there. I get the impression that a lot of LI citizens would be happy if the state cut most social services if it meant a cut in taxes. People don't understand that things like trains cost money. They are not about revenue generation and that is why they should be kept out of private hands.

. People don't understand that things like trains cost money. They are not about revenue generation and that is why they should be kept out of private hands.

Here's a quote from the LIRR: "the Greenport Branch carried the fewest customers in 2009, a total of 69,986, generating $726,304 in revenue, while it cost the LIRR $6 million to operate. While the average fare is $10.38, the actual LIRR cost of providing a ride is $85.91 per customer, for a subsidy per ride of about $75.53. By comparison, the Babylon Branch is the LIRR's busiest and generated more revenue in 2009 - $134 million - than any other line. Last year, it carried 19,682,188 passengers at an average ticket price of $6.81, but the actual cost of each ride on Babylon was $13.25. The subsidy per ride was about $6.44. Fare box revenue still only covered 51% of the actual cost of running trains between Penn Station and Babylon."

The question thus becomes, what benefits the most amount of people ?, taking that 6 million and putting it elsewhere to keep the rest of the system running reasonably well ?, or providing huge subsidies to very few riders ?. Seems like a no brainer to put it where it does the most good.

SB

The issue is that when you reduce trains you increase cost per passenger and decrease demand.

It is no way to run a railroad.

Here's a quote from the LIRR: "the Greenport Branch carried the fewest customers in 2009, a total of 69,986, generating $726,304 in revenue, while it cost the LIRR $6 million to operate. While the average fare is $10.38, the actual LIRR cost of providing a ride is $85.91 per customer, for a subsidy per ride of about $75.53. By comparison, the Babylon Branch is the LIRR's busiest and generated more revenue in 2009 - $134 million - than any other line. Last year, it carried 19,682,188 passengers at an average ticket price of $6.81, but the actual cost of each ride on Babylon was $13.25. The subsidy per ride was about $6.44. Fare box revenue still only covered 51% of the actual cost of running trains between Penn Station and Babylon."

The question thus becomes, what benefits the most amount of people ?, taking that 6 million and putting it elsewhere to keep the rest of the system running reasonably well ?, or providing huge subsidies to very few riders ?. Seems like a no brainer to put it where it does the most good.

SB

I would think that the MTA being a state operated monopoly, should operate in the public service even if it means running at a deficit on a little used line. Bean counters suck.

Having written a history of the LIRR's Syosset station a few years back, I spent a good deal of time studying the history of the railroad itself. If you go back to the very beginning, you'll be amazed to see that it had never made a profit for any extended period of time. Even when it has had a few good years, it always ends up in bankruptcy or otherwise in the red. Amazing how a system that built Long Island and continues to be one of our most critical lifelines can't make a good go at it.

Although the design of the new trains and the attitudes of many conductors can make bringing a bicycle on board a bit of a hassle, once you learn the ropes and you get to know the right blue caps, the railroad can open up many new vistas for cyclists. I hope, if they DO manage to keep this line running, that they add another car just for bikes in the summer time. I would certainly use it to reach the east end more often. If they CLOSE it, I sure hope it doesn't sit, abandoned, for too long before somebody gets the ball rolling on a rail trail!

Isn't it still used for freight as well?

It used to be... Back when Grumman was a major industrial presence on Long Island.

The U.S. Naval Weapons Plant in Calverton (just west of Riverhead) was where Grumman built all of the U.S. Navy's F-14 Tomcat fighter jets (of Top Gun fame) and A-6 Intruder attack planes. It was served by a spur off the main line that goes to Greenpoint so that industrial equipment, materials and parts could be moved to the plant by rail.

After Grumman pulled up stakes, there isn't much heavy industry left in eastern Suffolk unfortunately. :(