Bicycle Mechanics - Campy 11-spd levers with triple FD: Can it be done?

I'm a Campy fan, so when I built my triple-equipped tandem (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?625417-Woo-hoo-my-Calfee-won-Best-Tandem-at-NAHBS!) I chose a 2009 SR 11-spd. I wasn't sure I could use 11-spd, but purchased it anyway, thinking that if it didn't work I could exchange it with my single bike's Campy 10-spd. So far, it hasn't worked, but I want to see if I can get it to work, both for my use, and to establish that Campy 11-spd is an option for future tandem builds.

What I have:

Frame: Calfee Dragonfly (http://www.calfeedesign.com/tandemgeo.htm)
Crank: Lightning tandem triple crank (http://www.lightningbikes.com/Cranks%20of%20Carbon.htm).
Chainrings: TA Specialties Hegoa 53, 39, 30 (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/chainrings.asp)
Levers: 2009 ERGOPOWER™ ULTRA-SHIFT™ SUPER RECORD™ CONTROLS 11s (http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupsetdetail/item_ergopowerSuperRec_catid_12.jsp)
RD: SUPER RECORD™ rear derailleur 11s (http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupsetdetail/item_cambioSR11cor_catid_12.jsp)
Cassette: SUPER RECORD™ 11s sprockets 12-27 (http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupsetdetail/item_pignoniSR_catid_12.jsp)
Chain: 11s RECORD™ Chain (http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupsetdetail/item_catenaSR_catid_12.jsp)
FD: ??

I thought the problem with the triple was going to be the 11-spd's lack of a medium-cage RD, but the RD shifts great. I really like it, and don't want to give it up.

The problem is the FD. The 11-spd lever doesn't provide enough cable travel to work a triple FD.

[Background: Prior to 2007, Campy had a Record triple crank and FD, but now keep a triple only as a legacy. In 2007, Campy introduced Quick-Shift (QS) (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/campagnolo-new-2007-groups-all-10-speed-all-the-time), which changed the ratios. Since 2007, Campy has sold the QS-compatible COMP TRIPLE™ front derailleur (http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupsetdetail/item_derCOMpTRIPLE_catid_8.jsp). In 2009 Campy introduced 11-spd with ULTRA-SHIFT™, which further quickened the ratios, and is not compatible with the Comp Triple FD. The triple set-up Campy currently sells is the square taper crank, with the QS Comp Triple FD and the 2008 10-spd levers. I contacted Campy by telephone, and their rep stated that people had tried to get an 11-spd to work a triple, but no one has succeeded.]

Not knowing all this, I had intially purchased a 2006 Record FD. It did not work. I took delivery of the bike a few days ago, and have ridden it with a double FD, which of course does not get into the granny gear.

Is there any way to make an ULTRA-SHIFT™ 11-spd lever work a triple FD?


Could the 11-spd lever's internals be modified to generate more throw? If anyone can do this, I'll be the first customer.
Are there any FD's that will work with the 11-spd? For example, I've been told that a Shimano 105 8-spd might work.
Could a FD be modified to work?

FYI, the veloce (and probably centaur) 2009 lever works with a triple.

FYI, the veloce (and probably centaur) 2009 lever works with a triple.

Yeah, why not just purchase a triple left hand shifter?

Yeah, why not just purchase a triple left hand shifter?

When I talked to the Campy rep, he stated that I would need to get the 2008 10-spd, that has a different hood shape.

He hadn't mentioned the 2009 Centaur 10-spd. Is it known that this will work with with the COMP triple FD? Since it has the same hood shape, my problems would be solved.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Cjf1jcJLL._SS500_.jpg

I guess here is my answer:



Top Features of the Campagnolo Centaur 10 Speed Ergopower Ultra-Shift Lever Set

* Carbon lever
* Large support area
* Very smooth mechanism
* Absolute mechanical precision

For 2009 Campagnolo have added Carbon to the Centaur 10 Speed Ergopower Ultra-Shift Lever, which also adopts the new Ergopower Ultra-Shift design.

The ample support area for your hands and the Vari-Cushion shock absorber make them ideal for those who grind kilometre after kilometre.

The Centaur Ergo Power levers are suitable for standard or Skeleton caliper brakes, are double/triple crankset compatible. They are built around a composite body with a Carbon fibre brake lever, the shifting mechanism uses ball bearings in place of cheaper bushes, and utilises Campagnolo's Ultra-Shift™ geometry. The lever hoods are ergonomic as is the brake lever which uses a high fulcrum resulting in a closer brake lever. Vari-Cushion™ silicone hoods with a No-Bulge™ housing path also help to keep your hands comfortable on longer rides.

I can assure you that a veloce 2009 pulls enough cable to work with a triple.
I'm even using it with a double FD on a 26-36-46 crankset.

I would guess that centaur, using the same internals as veloce 2009, but with carbon levers should be the same.

Okay, I purchase a left-side 2009 10-spd Centaur shifter.

Will I also need to purchase the latest Comp Triple FD (which is QS), or will the non-QS 2006 Record FD work acceptably with the 2009 Ultra-Shift Centaur?

According to Campy (http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/Front_derailleur_QS_UK-04-09.pdf):


QS Ergopower controls with the non-QS front derailleurs could require a higher force to effect shifting

The 2006 Record FD:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7057/2006recordtriplefd.png

I don't know if you'll need a different FD.
All 9/10sp road FDs from campy, shimano and sram have the same or very similar amount of cable pull so they are interchangeable.
unless the cable pull ratio changed significantly in the new version, the FD you have should work.

hopefully someone who knows more about it than I can chime in.

The total cable pull from the 6 clicks on a left hand 10 or 11 speed ultrashift lever should be the same and either should be able to operate a triple FD. I measured the cable pull a long time ago and IIRC, it was .600 inch. A current year triple FD should work, but I also believe that just about any older Campy triple FD should work. One problem I had was the cage being just a little too wide, even for a 5.9mm 10 speed chain. With a 46mm chainline, I needed to reduce the cage width just a little to get the chain to drop onto the little ring. I squeezed the cage together with a pair of pliers and got it to work. Campy likes to see a 47.5mm chainline on any bike having a ST diameter greater than 28.6mm.

When setting up a triple FD, it often takes several turns from the barrel adjuster to get enough tension of the cable to make the shift from the little ring to the middle ring with one sweep of the finger lever. I've read posts from users who thought it couldn't be done and put up with double shifting for years. Too much cable tension will lift the lever arm off the little ring limit screw and cause chain rub in the little ring and largest cog. If you haven't reached that point, you haven't gone too far.

The other issue with this setup if the lack of wrap capacity from the RD. If you make the chain long enough to wrap the big/big it will hang loose in the 30T chainring and quite a few of the smaller cogs.

The actuation ratio of an 11 speed RD is slightly larger than 10 speed, but a 10 speed RD can operate an 11 speed drivetrain accurately with only a slight modification. I'm running a medium cage Chorus triple on my winter bike with a 12-27. It has enough wrap capacity for a triple.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=160601 (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=160601)

The total cable pull from the 6 clicks on a left hand 10 or 11 speed ultrashift lever should be the same and either should be able to operate a triple FD. I measured the cable pull a long time ago and IIRC, it was .600 inch. A current year triple FD should work, but I also believe that just about any older Campy triple FD should work.

I contacted Campy by telephone, and their rep stated that people had tried to get an 11-spd to work a triple, but no one has succeeded.

One of these statements has to be wrong.

One of these statements has to be wrong.

Not necessarily. I've been amazed by the lack of expertise and poor answers offered up by Campy USA. They know less about their own product than they should.

I have a copy of the first-issue spare parts PDF for the ultrashift levers. It could be wrong, but it shows the same left front rachet and index disc for Centaur 10 and Record 11.

My advice is to check the total cable travel. You should see 6 pulls that are all very close to .1 inch. When I first got a pair of these levers, I checked the cable pull required by my triple equipped bike and I know it was not more than .600 inch. The old levers did have 12 clicks available, but only 7 were needed for a triple. 5 of these 7 clicks are required to make the shift from the little ring to the middle ring, followed by 1-2 clicks of the thumb button to recenter the RD.

Since this question came up, I just remeasured the cable pull on both a 10 speed Centaur and an 11 speed Record left ultrashift lever. I came up with .65 inch from both. The first four pulls add up to .4 inch. Those are the ones needed for double FD.

With this information, measure the cable pull from a properly setup Campy triple and compare. I'd have to tear down a bike and reinstall my triple crank and 2003 FD to do this. Checking the pull is not hard. You need a precision machinist scale. Wrap a piece of masking tape around the, right below the frame mounted cable. Measure from the end of the stop or the ferrule, as appropriate, with the cable fully contracted. Adjust the tape to rest at an even number, like .5 or 1 inch, then go through all of the thumb button clicks and remeasure to get the total travel.

The only other issues with this setup would be chainline and FD cage width. If the lever arm on the RD touches the seat tube without dropping the chain onto the little ring, you might need a chainline adjustment or need to tweak the cage width a bit for the narrow chain.

I've used a Campy 10 chain on an 11 speed cassette, just to see how it worked. I was suprised that if caused no shifting problems, but I still don't recommend it, since it's such a tight fit.

Not necessarily. I've been amazed by the lack of expertise and poor answers offered up by Campy USA. They know less about their own product than they should.
So, Campy USA is giving out the wrong information. Too bad.



With this information, measure the cable pull from a properly setup Campy triple and compare. I'd have to tear down a bike and reinstall my triple crank and 2003 FD to do this. Checking the pull is not hard. You need a precision machinist scale. Wrap a piece of masking tape around the, right below the frame mounted cable. Measure from the end of the stop or the ferrule, as appropriate, with the cable fully contracted. Adjust the tape to rest at an even number, like .5 or 1 inch, then go through all of the thumb button clicks and remeasure to get the total travel.
I just did this measurement on a 2006 Campy Chorus 10-speed triple on one of my bikes (that shifts very well, BTW.) The total cable travel for a complete traverse from the innermost granny position to the outside trim position on the big chainring was 0.75", or somewhat longer than the current Ergos will pull.

If the cable travel is .75 inch, please also check how many clicks you are using, in total. If it more than 7, then the cable tension is not correct and one of the clicks is taking up slack. If 7 clicks pulls .750 inch, then the new shifter won't operate an older RD. I know that 7 clicks is the minimum number.

When I do a cable pull test, I take the cable loose from the RD.

My memory isn't great but this was one of the first things I recall checking when I got my Centaur levers back in October of '08. I still had a 10 speed triple bike set up, so I checked mine and remember the new levers having enough pull.

One thing you don't see at the Campy website is any info stating that the current Centaur or Veloce shifters won't work with their current triple FD.

veloce 2009 certainly pulls enough cable to get a 26/36/46 working with a shimano 5500 double FD.

If the cable travel is .75 inch, please also check how many clicks you are using, in total. If it more than 7, then the cable tension is not correct and one of the clicks is taking up slack. If 7 clicks pulls .750 inch, then the new shifter won't operate an older RD. I know that 7 clicks is the minimum number.

Good call on this one. I have 9 clicks from full in to full out. The first click only takes up cable slack and doesn't move the fd at all. The second click barely moves the fd. The last (9th) click is right against the high limit screw and positions the fd quite far out so it only works in the top three or 4 cogs. So maybe 7 clicks (7/9 of 0.75" or .58") would work but, since the bike shifts so well as it is, I'm not going to change anything.

The problem with using more than 7 clicks is the shift from the little ring to the middle can't be done with one sweep of the finger lever. You have to use two pre-shift clicks, then use a second sweep of the finger lever to finish the job, then recenter with the thumb button.

Many people have a setup like this, but it works better with 7 clicks. All you need is more cable tension.

Many people have a setup like this, but it works better with 7 clicks. All you need is more cable tension.
Yeah, I know it would be theoretically better to set it up to work with 7 clicks but I have a "sleeping dog" problem. It works so well for almost all shifts, I'm reluctant to "improve" it. :)

It's very important to have all of the cable out of the shifter and all of the slack out of the cable when the derailleur is set for the smallest chainring.

It's very important to have all of the cable out of the shifter and all of the slack out of the cable when the derailleur is set for the smallest chainring.
Yeah, I know that and did that before connecting the shift cable. However, after I pulled the cable snug and tightened the fixing bolt I found there was still a little slack with the brifter in the most extended position. I could have gone back and tightened it by pulling the cable tighter or using the frame's barrel adjuster but, as I said, the thing shifts so well and the alignment is so good that having a wasted click at the lowest granny position is of no importance. If it ain't broke.......

Maybe when i overhaul it next time and replace the cables I'll do it "right" but for now it works fine.

BTW, this only applies to older Campy brifters with the 9-click micro-adjust system. You can't get away with it with any Shimano STI or Campy "Escape" brifter.

I offered that post as general information for folks not having enough derailleur travel. I would not expect you to have any derailleur setup problems.

I set the little ring limit screw before I attach the shift cable. The other important detail is to push the thumb button all the way down so there are no more clicks left before attaching the shift cable.

As noted, the older Campy shifters have a lot of unused clicks, so you can get by with a sloppy setup, but the shifter does not function as intended.

With the new ultrashift levers, you need every click to operate a triple and the cable tension is critical. Keep increasing it, as needed, and don't stop unless the lever arm will no longer touch the little ring limit screw. That's probably the reason some users can't make the new shifter operate a triple - not enough cable tension. You can't get by with one click taking up cable slack.

There's also a method to solve the cable tension probem if the frame has no cable tension adjuster. After the low limit screw is set with the cable unattached, deliberately turn the screw in (CW) anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 turn, pull the cable tight, then tighten the clamp bolt. Return the screw to it's normal position and there will be substantial tension on the cable. The amount to turn the screw is trial and error. A brand new cable will require more pretensioning and may need a readjustment after the first ride or two. After that, I can ride most of a season with no further adjustment.

I set the little ring limit screw before I attach the shift cable. The other important detail is to push the thumb button all the way down so there are no more clicks left before attaching the shift cable.
Actually I set both limit screws before attaching the cable. And, as I replied to Al1943, I know to release the thumb button (or inner lever on STIs) all the way. I further realize my set-up is sloppy but it works for my particular situation and the older version of Ergos I have.

Now, I'll stop defending my casual set up (:)). I do agree that what you are recommending is the proper way to set the front shifting and, indeed, it's imperitive to do it that way with newer Campy brifters and has always been essential with STIs.

Okay, an update. I purchased a left side 2009 Centaur shifter from my LBS, and mounted the 2006 Record triple FD. The Centaur shifter now works the FD fine.

It still, however, wasn't shifting. The LBS replaced the TA chainring with Ultegra and got it to shift almost usably, with some manipulation of the FD with pliers.

On upshifts from the middle to big chainring, however, the 5.5 mm 11-spd chain will often fall into the gap rather than get up to the big ring.

I contacted Tim Brummel at Lightning, who suggested that he could machine the spyder and chainring bolts to reduce the gap between chainrings to Campy 11-speed spec. To do this, I need to determine the specs for Campy 11-speed chainring gap in comparison to the 10-speed. I've searched unsuccessfully, does anyone here have the answer?

Another problem is that the FD inner cage width appears too wide, and the 5.5 mm chain swims in the cage, requiring too much FD travel prior to engaging. So, I'd also like to find out the difference in FD cage inner width between the 10-speed and the 11-speed, as I might be able to modify the 10-speed cage to have 11-speed specs.

In my tandem riding thus far, I've found the 11-speed RD to shift terrifically, and it is a boon to have 11 speeds in a 12-27 cassette, as shifting is smooth and with fine gradation. That is important on a tandem, for which inertia plays a bigger role, and to be in the wrong gear is a bigger problem. A 33- speed 12-27 triple will be great (once I get it to work), as it will be great on steep climbs, adjusting to rollers, and fast descents.

The difference in the tooth spacing between 10 and 11 speed is very small. Campy made the big ring mnouting suraface .4mm thinner when 10 speed came out and another .6mm thinner when 11 speed came out, but the spacing is NOT 1mm closer than before. This has been posted many times, but it is not true. The official tooth to tooth spacing is 7.7mm. My 2003 model FSA triple crank that is 9/10 compatible has a tooth spacing of 7.8mm. That .1mm difference is only the thickness of some heavy weight paper.

The problem with the triple FD is it was made when back when the chain was still 6.1mm wide. When the 5.9mm chain came out, I had to squeeze the cage width down just a little to get my triple to shift to the little ring. Part of that problem was because the FSA cranks have a 46mm chainline instead of the 47.5mm specified by Campy. The lever arm on the FD was resting on the seat tube and still wouldn;t drop the chain onto the little ring, so the low limit screw was essentially worthless.

Whether the width of the cage really needs to be narrowed and on what side, depends on the specific problem. If it's a problem lifting the chain up to the middle ring, first be absolutely sure that you have the maximum cable tension. It's not at the maximum until it lifts the lever arm off the low limit screw. That's why so many people need to double-pump the finger lever - they're using finger lever clicks to take up cable slack.

The cage width reduction should be about the same as the chain width reduction, which in this case would be .6mm.

As an experiment, I'd keep tightening the cable tension, even if it causes the chain to rub in the little ring and largest cog. You won't make the shift up to the middle ring from that cog. Use a smaller cog for the test. If that doesn't fix the shifting, narrowing the cage is not likely to fix that problem either. Shifting ramps on the middle ring are a must. That's where 11 speed rings are really different - the shifting ramps. Of course, only the big ring has ramps on a double crank.

Have you tried a 2010 Comp triple FD? That model would make the most sense. If you have tried it, are you sure that the cable tension was maxed out?

The difference in the tooth spacing between 10 and 11 speed is very small. Campy made the big ring mounting surface .4mm thinner when 10 speed came out and another .6mm thinner when 11 speed came out, but the spacing is NOT 1mm closer than before. This has been posted many times, but it is not true. The official tooth to tooth spacing is 7.7mm. My 2003 model FSA triple crank that is 9/10 compatible has a tooth spacing of 7.8mm. That .1mm difference is only the thickness of some heavy weight paper.

So, tooth spacing is the clearance between the inner and outer chainrings, and this is officially 7.7 mm in 11-speed, and potentially 7.8 mm in 10 speed? If I google Campy chainring 7.7 mm I still don't find any official references from Campagnolo, but rather your posts on WW's, Road Bike Review, etc. I'd really like to get the Official-From-Campagnolo spec to Tim Brummel at Lightning, so he could make the spacing exactly like the 11-speed UT.



Have you tried a 2010 Comp triple FD? That model would make the most sense. If you have tried it, are you sure that the cable tension was maxed out?

No, I had purchased a NOS Record FD, but I am not sure what year it is. Apparently not 2006, as it doesn't have the aluminum cage as depicted above, but rather is plated steel. Since I had it, I wanted to use it if it would work. And it does, sort of. If the Comp Triple FD will be an improvement I will get it. Do you think the cage width is narrower, that it will be worked more easily by the 2009 Centaur shifters, or that it will have greater range of travel?

ADDENDUM:
I just got off the phone with Campy USA. The specs, such as the distance between the chainrings on a Campagnolo 10 and 11-speed crank are proprietary, and will be neither published by Campy, nor released if asked. Likewise with the inner width of the 11-speed cage.

My point is that the tooth to tooth spacing is not exteremly critical. The shifting has more to do with the ramps made just for the 5.5mm chain.

If your RD has a chrome steel cage, it's older than 2006. I have one of those. I can't say if the latest comp model will work better, but at least it's made for a 5.9mm chain.

The cage width on an 11 speed double FD would be of no value. The cage width is not constant, so you really can't put a single number on it anyway.

Despite what Campy says, I've got a drawing for you:

12.3-4.6 = 7.7

http://i40.tinypic.com/r90rgl.jpg

That drawing is great, DaveSSS, and really clears up matters.

Now, the term tooth-to-tooth that you use refers to the distance between the two chainrings at the tooth? I Googled the term, and find a lot of your posts, and also this (http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/12/bikes-tech/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-electric-shifting-and-eclectic-componentry_86055) from Lennard Zinn at Velo News.



The tooth-to-tooth distance on Campagnolo 9-speed is 4.55mm, 4.15mm on Campagnolo 10-speed, and 3.9mm on Campagnolo 11-speed. Chainring tooth spacing is hard to measure, because of the height difference between the two rings, but the spacing between cogs is only 0.25mm less on 11-speed than on 10-speed! That’s not much.

Read more: http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/12/bikes-tech/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-electric-shifting-and-eclectic-componentry_86055#ixzz0jhvU5rV5


Is Zinn referring to the same thing as you? If the drawing you posted clearly shows a tooth-to-tooth distance of 7.7 mm, where is Zinn coming up with 3.9 mm? He agrees that the difference between 10 and 11-speed is nigh infinitesimal, and probably not important. When I look down, however, and see the 11-speed chain fail to upshift, and instead slide between the middle and big ring, I tend to think that this tooth-to-tooth distance does mean something.

Zinn is talking about cog spacing, not chainring spacing. 11 speed cogs have 3.8mm spacing, not 3.9. The cogs are 1.6mm and the spacers are 2.2mm.

Chainring spacing is not that hard to measure with a precison machinist scale with .01 inch increments. If you have a bike with a down tube that is not tapered, you can measure the teeth from the side of the DT and get the difference.

Chainring spacing has not changed very much at all, since the days of 9 speed. Most of the changes are to the shifting ramps, like I said earlier. I've used a Chorus 10 crank with 11 speed and had no problems at all. The 11 speed chain rings shift better, due to changes that Campy made to the ramps.

I'm still telling you that if the shifting ramps aren't right, a minor change to the chainring spacing is not likely to fix your problem. If you take the crank to a machine shop, they can easily set it up on granite table and use a height gage check the exact spacing you have now. I worked in the machining industry for 30 years, so I do know how to take precision measurements.