Touring - Two first time long distance bikers in need of advice

Update August 16: Hey all, we bought our bikes! Settled on the Jamis Aurora, which we have loved so far after some fun 50 mile rides. We also bought our camping gear, but we've gotten stuck trying to figure out what to do as far as actually carrying the gear goes. We've been reading about tons of different front and rear racks, but the price range is enormous, and we are trying to determine what is actually necessary and what is luxury. Our very rough idea is to try to distribute the weight evenly between front and back, which seems to necessitate buying an expensive front rack. Then again, we've seen photos of loaded tours where no front panniers were used at all. Any tips on what we might need as racks go, and how we should split the load? Thanks for the help, as always.


Update:

Hey all, sorry to bump an old thread, but we've found what we think is a nice deal on the 2009 Jamais Aurora, $700 shipped. We were going to pull the trigger, but we read mixed reviews. Some stellar reviews, some that went as far as to suggest the bike would be unsafe for touring. Any advice? Could you reasonably cross the country on this bike? I see at least one person who responded to this thread seems to think so.

http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/pdfs/2009_pdfs/09_aurora.pdf

Thanks.



Hi all,

My brother and I have begun to plan a rather ambitious cross country trip (across the US) that would begin approximately one year from now and are in need of advice. Neither of us has ever done a trip of this magnitude, and we're unsure of what kind of bikes we should ride, what supplies we'll need, etc. Any and all advice would be very much appreciated!

We're currently shopping for bikes (since ours were stolen out of our garage...), but it's easy to get lost among thousands of bikes there are out there. What are some of the best bicycles for *long* distance touring.

Thanks a ton,

Roberto and Davide

Touring Bikes:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=touring+bikes&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=Touring+&gs_rfai=&fp=a95dd02ae54fb99e

82 year old rides 3200 miles
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=RrzKj&doc_id=4767&v=FI

Cheap: Any bike you can fit some racks on, Windsor Tourist, build your own Nashbar touring frame if you've got some parts (that's what I'm doing!) About $700.

Awesome: Surly Long Haul Trucker, Trek 520, Jamis Aurora, Kona Sutra These are all in the neighborhood of $1100.

Extra-Cheap but requires some mechanical skill: Get an old rigid frame mountain bike off of Craigslist, have the wheels professionally trued and tensioned, overhaul the bearings, replace any broken parts, get some racks, good tires, bar ends, and a seat you like. That was my first touring bike. Now I've gone with something from TonyS's "Awesome" category (Raleigh Sojourn) now that I know I enjoy touring and will actually use the bike a lot.

One year to travel across the US... I'm curious about what route you're planning on taking. You could virtually travel around the world in that time :)

said he is leaving in one year, not taking one year

There are so many variables to consider when equipping for a long tour that it's really impossible for a stranger to safely recommend a bike and gear. Age, experience, strength, size, goals, budget, tour route, weather expected, travel philosophy, etc all come into play. What works well for one may not be suitable for you.

Example: You could cross the country on a $100 used Schwinn road bike, a $350 hybid, a $600 WindsorTourist, a $1200 LHT, or a $5000 Co-Motion Americano. And that just scratches the surface.

Do some more research, narrow down your options, then come back with more specific questions. The answers to many can be found by using the Search function here and at crazyguyonabike.

Putting a tour together is half the fun, so have fun.

Novara Randonees are also a solid bike and $800 until mid-April.

Novara Randonees are also a solid bike and $800 until mid-April.
I thought only the '09 Randonee (sm & xs) was available at that price, and I didn't notice anything about the end-of-sale date.

I thought only the '09 Randonee (sm & xs) was available at that price, and I didn't notice anything about the end-of-sale date.

This is for the 2010 model and all sizes should be available. Members get 20% off one item and that includes Norvara bikes.

You can tour on almost anything, though some non-tourers are worse than others. However, since you have time and money (?) I say get a real tourer. Others have suggested models similar to what I would list. Adventure Cycling just had an interesting thread on their Facebook page here (http://www.facebook.com/adventurecycling#!/notes/adventure-cycling-association/touring-bikes-under-1500/406159670794).

Go to CrazyGuyOnABike.com and check out people's packing lists. For self-supported touring you'll need a tent, sleeping bag, cooking gear, etc. I wouldn't venture out on a long tour without raingear. There are hundreds of iterations of "what to carry". Read a bunch of lists, make your own, then go on some short tours and see what you think. Whatever you do, aim for the lightest stuff possible. You'll be glad you did when chugging up a long hill or mountain pass, and you'll lessen the chance of breaking spokes, which can be a real drag.

Adventure Cycling Association has a great page of touring how-to articles:
http://www.adventurecycling.org/features/howto.cfm

We're currently shopping for bikes.
What are some of the best bicycles for *long* distance touring.


You might want to check out Bruce Gordon Cycles - we make a full line of Touring Bikes.
Check them out at - http://brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/ or www.bgcycles.com
Regards,
Bruce Gordon

Check out yard sales, goodwill stores, and even trash, for bikes with a relatively long wheelbase, and eyelets on the forks. I toured on a road bike before touring bikes became readily available. People have made epic journeys on English three speeds. Ride a lot.

Just start spending lots of time here and at crazyguyonabike.com. Bruce Gordon might have mentioned his own product, but it's a strong contender -- bikes that will serve you well for years after your tour. While all the gear might seem spendy at first, the cost of actually touring is so low compared to other modes of travel that you shouldn't have to think too hard to justify spending the green up front.

Start riding, try a few short trips, make lists, and if you're near where there are lots of people touring, talk them up. I had a meeting in San Francisco yesterday, and returned to work in Santa Cruz County via Hwy 1. Beautiful day, low 70s, and lots of tourists out because it's spring break for some schools. There's no right or wrong. Quite a few yesterday had a few things strapped to the top of a rear rack, and everything else in a backpack.

I wouldn't choose to ride miles with a pack on, and I'm fortunate enough that my resources don't compel me to. But these people were out making their own adventures on a day so beautiful that I can't imagine any will forget the experience soon. Enjoy the planning, the experience and the memories -- like savoring a three course meal.

i juat wanted to say THANKS :thumb:for posting all of the nice photos of all the weard stuff out there.

As for basic equipment lists, you can find tons of those around. Search this forum and you should find at least some. After that, going on even just a 3 day tour can teach you more about touring than reading 100 forum posts about it. A couple short trips will really help you get your kit dialed and get you into the groove of things. It's surprising how similar a 5 day tour and a 5 week tour can be.

Roberto and David, the actual bikes and equipment aren't as important as having a flexible attitude and ability to change plans. Once you've dialed in your posture, seat and bar position and there's enough air in the tires it really won't matter what you're riding. If you're young you'll probably have a high tolerance for discomfort and be willing to push it, but the harder you push it the less you'll see.
I like Cyclebums brackets of bike possibilities.
I'm guessing that the biggest thing will be finding out if one of you likes to ride 1mph faster or 10miles farther.

Hi all,

My brother and I have begun to plan a rather ambitious cross country trip (across the US) for approximately one year from now and are in need of advice. Neither of us has ever done a trip of this magnitude, and we're unsure of what kind of bikes we should ride, what supplies we'll need, etc. Any and all advice would be very much appreciated!


Are you planning on mostly camping, and going self-supported?

Are you planning on mostly camping, and going self-supported?


That's the plan at this point. I've been checking out the websites mentioned above (which have been very helpful!) and am starting to compile a list of materials. I guess I want to exploit the more experienced riders out there and see if there are any pieces of equipment that are unusual but turned out to be useful.

Also as far as the budget for bikes go, it'd be around $800 - $1200 per bike. Though I certainly wouldn't complain spending less haha.

Update:

Hey all, sorry to bump an old thread, but we've found what we think is a nice deal on the 2009 Jamais Aurora, $700 shipped. We were going to pull the trigger, but we read mixed reviews. Some stellar reviews, some that went as far as to suggest the bike would be unsafe for touring. Any advice? Could you reasonably cross the country on this bike? I see at least one person who responded to this thread seems to think so.

http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/pdfs/2009_pdfs/09_aurora.pdf

Thanks.

I have 8600 miles on my Jamis Aurora. Most of the rides on this bike were 100-130 miles. All with one set of panniers and some with four. I set my bike fit the way I want and use a saddle I like.
I have Panaracer Pacela tourguards 32mm wide. This is probably the most comfortable bike I have ridden. It rolls good and takes bumps very well. The 32 mm 95 psi tires have a lot to do with that. It is a stiff frame so it will handle well with a heavy load, and it does. Better than just a "typical" road bike with the same load. The seat stays and chain stays are a little stiffer and stronger than a bike not made for touring. I would used this to ride across the country with, over anything I have ridden. I think it's perfect for that.
As already mentioned lots of miles on the bike, and getting the fit just the way you like is the most important thing.

This photo is before I put the front pannier racks on.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8616/hpim3623ku1.jpg


Just found this, it shows the front pannier racks.

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9416/hpim4357.jpg

Thanks 2manybikes!

Thanks 2manybikes!

I forgot to mention something. It was 12 years ago, my memory is going!!
The original hard brake shoes and the soft aluminum rims were a bad match, the brakes were terrible and they actually started damaging the wheels. I switched to red Kool Stop pads, and everything was fine. The brakes are now as powerful as they should be. Stronger than caliper brakes, enough to stop the bike when loaded.

Looking for advice yet again. Thanks to everyone who has helped so far.

Update August 16: Hey all, we bought our bikes! Settled on the Jamis Aurora, which we have loved so far after some fun 50 mile rides. We also bought our camping gear, but we've gotten stuck trying to figure out what to do as far as actually carrying the gear goes. We've been reading about tons of different front and rear racks, but the price range is enormous, and we are trying to determine what is actually necessary and what is luxury. Our very rough idea is to try to distribute the weight evenly between front and back, which seems to necessitate buying an expensive front rack. Then again, we've seen photos of loaded tours where no front panniers were used at all. Any tips on what we might need as racks go, and how we should split the load? Thanks for the help, as always.

Congrats on your purchase. As far as weight distribution is concerned, it depends on how much you are carrying. For a total load of less than c. 40lbs I'd say you were OK to put everything on the rear rack. Much above that and I'd suggest a 70/30 or 60/40 rear/front split. If you put big weights on the back and nothing on the front the handling gets sketchy. I certainly wouldn't go 50-50 though - too much weight on the front and the bike tends to dive into any hole in the road. A couple of low loaders on the front, rather than a full rack, is my solution - but YMMV depending on how much gear you are hauling.

I have a Nashbar lowrider front rack I picked up used for a few bucks this summer and a Topeak Explorer rack on the rear that I got new last year on the rear. While I haven't toured with them yet, they've both done service commuting and getting groceries, especially the rear rack. I would tour comfortably with the Explorer and with the Nashbar in the front, especially for the overnight/weekend or 3-4 day tours I have in mind so far.

That being said, if I were planning to tour for a year like you noted you are, I think I'd try to come up with the money for a nice Tubus racks or something of that level of quality and designed especially for loaded touring just to have the piece of mind. It might seem a luxury if you were only going for a weekend overnight bike camping trip, but since you plan on trying to go for a year, I'd say get the good stuff. I think you'll appreciate it.

As for loading, you've probably already seen the same suggestions I have re: weight distribution. If you're using front racks and panniers in addition to the rear, 60-40 (rear-front) seems to be the most common suggestion.

Thanks chasm54 and EKW in DC for your responses. Just to clarify, we won't be touring for a full year. Sorry for the ambiguous wording. Still, we will cover about 3800 miles crossing the country, so yeah, some nice racks might be in order.

I have a Nashbar lowrider front rack I picked up used for a few bucks this summer and a Topeak Explorer rack on the rear that I got new last year on the rear. While I haven't toured with them yet, they've both done service commuting and getting groceries, especially the rear rack. I would tour comfortably with the Explorer and with the Nashbar in the front, especially for the overnight/weekend or 3-4 day tours I have in mind so far.

That being said, if I were planning to tour for a year like you noted you are, I think I'd try to come up with the money for a nice Tubus racks or something of that level of quality and designed especially for loaded touring just to have the piece of mind. It might seem a luxury if you were only going for a weekend overnight bike camping trip, but since you plan on trying to go for a year, I'd say get the good stuff. I think you'll appreciate it.

Different strokes, but I like my Blackburn EX-1 rear rack and Performance low rider front rack just fine. Similarly the Nashbar lowrider and EX-1 on my daughter's bike are quite adequate. There is no compelling need for anything better regardless of the tour length. We used them for the Trans America and other longish tours and I will probably use them for long tours for the rest of my life.

Don't get me wrong, the Tubus racks are nice, but the EX-1 and Nashbar are a fraction of the cost and completely adequate. If the budget is not a factor and you want the Tubus stuff great. Just don't think it is a necessity especially if the budget is tight.

Different strokes, but I like my Blackburn EX-1 rear rack and Performance low rider front rack just fine. Similarly the Nashbar lowrider and EX-1 on my daughter's bike are quite adequate. There is no compelling need for anything better regardless of the tour length. We used them for the Trans America and other longish tours and I will probably use them for long tours for the rest of my life.

Don't get me wrong, the Tubus racks are nice, but the EX-1 and Nashbar are a fraction of the cost and completely adequate. If the budget is not a factor and you want the Tubus stuff great. Just don't think it is a necessity especially if the budget is tight.

staehpj1, how much weight were your carrying front and back? We looked at the Blackburn EX-1, and saw it was rated for 40 lbs. Did you stick to that recommendation, or did you find you could load it up with more?

Thanks for the help.

staehpj1, how much weight were your carrying front and back? We looked at the Blackburn EX-1, and saw it was rated for 40 lbs. Did you stick to that recommendation, or did you find you could load it up with more?

I might have had more than 40 pounds on it when we were loaded up with extra water in the desert before I learned to pack lighter and it was fine, but there really should be no need to carry nearly that much on the rear rack if using front and rear panniers and touring in the US in Summer.

I figure that about 30 pounds split between front and rear not counting food and water is a reasonable goal for a coast to coast tour or pretty much any other tour in the US in Summer. Even if you go over a bit that will keep you well within the capacity of this rack.

I might have had more than 40 pounds on it when we were loaded up with extra water in the desert before I learned to pack lighter and it was fine, but there really should be no need to carry nearly that much on the rear rack if using front and rear panniers and touring in the US in Summer.

I figure that about 30 pounds split between front and rear not counting food and water is a reasonable goal for a coast to coast tour or pretty much any other tour in the US in Summer. Even if you go over a bit that will keep you well within the capacity of this rack.

Thank you, that is very helpful. I felt that some of the expensive racks might be overkill, and it is nice to know you've toured with some of the more reasonable options.

a ditto on those opinions on racks. I did my loaded tours (front back racks) with middle priced racks. Do note that a rear rack with three vertical "stays" is generally better than those with 2. My 3 stay rack was not the cheapest, nor most expensive, and I had a lowrider front rack with smallish front bags that I usually put clothes and stuff in , so they wouldnt be too heavy. Had a handlebar bag too so preferred to keep the weight up front down--dont like how the steering is with too much weight up front. My total weight on month long trips, 1600km was probably in the 40-45 range (never did weigh it all, so dont have an exact number)

obviously you dont want to go with a cheap rack that will either break or flex with the weight on it.

I would however be sure that your wheels and hubs are really made for touring, and that a good experienced wheel mechanic makes sure that the spokes are all tensioned properly-IMO this is a very important thing, in all my trips, I never once broke a spoke, and in fact that same bike was used for all kinds of city commuting as well as touring and over 15 years, the wheels never broke a spoke.

I highly recommend Ortlieb panniers, the ones that you roll close the tops. Waterproof, and the nice advantage over zippered bags is that at the end of a day, when buying bulky food for supper/breakfast, its handy to be able to unroll the bags and stuff things in willy nilly and even if it doesnt fit in perfectly, you can close the bags with the clips and ride with stuff sticking out of the pannier (obviously if not raining and not for long long rides)

Ortliebs are a bit expensive, but taken care of, like I have with mine, they will last and last and last. Mine are 17-18 yrs old, with lots of commuting years also and still are very useable. I suspect there are other waterproof brands out there that are of good quality, when I bought mine, Ortlieb were the only "roll up" waterproof ones. Was so nice not to have to worry about plastic bagged clothes getting wet with rain.

ps, my front panniers were not Ortliebs nor waterproof.

I fully second the opinion of doing some weekend trips to see how the bikes handle loaded, and to figure out over time what stuff you need, stuff you dont need etc. I would really urge you NOT to leave this all to the last minute, as the person said above somewhere, a short trip really does give a good idea of needs etc cmpared to a long long trip.

and yes, use the internet like crazy to see routes, and help with route planning and expectations for distances between towns, water, food, less busy routes (like how to avoid a busy with lumber truck type of road)

all the best,

a ditto on those opinions on racks. I did my loaded tours (front back racks) with middle priced racks. Do note that a rear rack with three vertical "stays" is generally better than those with 2. My 3 stay rack was not the cheapest, nor most expensive, and I had a lowrider front rack with smallish front bags that I usually put clothes and stuff in , so they wouldnt be too heavy. Had a handlebar bag too so preferred to keep the weight up front down--dont like how the steering is with too much weight up front. My total weight on month long trips, 1600km was probably in the 40-45 range (never did weigh it all, so dont have an exact number)

obviously you dont want to go with a cheap rack that will either break or flex with the weight on it.

I would however be sure that your wheels and hubs are really made for touring, and that a good experienced wheel mechanic makes sure that the spokes are all tensioned properly-IMO this is a very important thing, in all my trips, I never once broke a spoke, and in fact that same bike was used for all kinds of city commuting as well as touring and over 15 years, the wheels never broke a spoke.

I highly recommend Ortlieb panniers, the ones that you roll close the tops. Waterproof, and the nice advantage over zippered bags is that at the end of a day, when buying bulky food for supper/breakfast, its handy to be able to unroll the bags and stuff things in willy nilly and even if it doesnt fit in perfectly, you can close the bags with the clips and ride with stuff sticking out of the pannier (obviously if not raining and not for long long rides)

Ortliebs are a bit expensive, but taken care of, like I have with mine, they will last and last and last. Mine are 17-18 yrs old, with lots of commuting years also and still are very useable. I suspect there are other waterproof brands out there that are of good quality, when I bought mine, Ortlieb were the only "roll up" waterproof ones. Was so nice not to have to worry about plastic bagged clothes getting wet with rain.

ps, my front panniers were not Ortliebs nor waterproof.

I fully second the opinion of doing some weekend trips to see how the bikes handle loaded, and to figure out over time what stuff you need, stuff you dont need etc. I would really urge you NOT to leave this all to the last minute, as the person said above somewhere, a short trip really does give a good idea of needs etc cmpared to a long long trip.

and yes, use the internet like crazy to see routes, and help with route planning and expectations for distances between towns, water, food, less busy routes (like how to avoid a busy with lumber truck type of road)

all the best,

Thanks so much for your reply, this is great stuff. And yes, one of the reasons we are buying all this gear now is so we can have plenty of test runs.

con mucho gusto

If cost is a concern regarding the front rack, there are people out there touring with a standard rear rack mounted on the front. I have toured about 3000 miles with a Blackburn rear rack on the front with no problems. Just make sure the mounts are secure and it works great. Yes the panniers ride higher, but I've noticed no ill effects from that. This thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?671544-Mounting-a-rear-rack-on-the-front.) has more as well as links to some photos.

If cost is a concern regarding the front rack, there are people out there touring with a standard rear rack mounted on the front. I have toured about 3000 miles with a Blackburn rear rack on the front with no problems. Just make sure the mounts are secure and it works great. Yes the panniers ride higher, but I've noticed no ill effects from that. This thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?671544-Mounting-a-rear-rack-on-the-front.) has more as well as links to some photos.

I don't follow that, am I missing something? Front racks are typically cheaper aren't they? I know the low riders that I use are very inexpensive.

I highly recommend Ortlieb panniers, the ones that you roll close the tops. Waterproof, and the nice advantage over zippered bags is that at the end of a day, when buying bulky food for supper/breakfast, its handy to be able to unroll the bags and stuff things in willy nilly and even if it doesnt fit in perfectly, you can close the bags with the clips and ride with stuff sticking out of the pannier (obviously if not raining and not for long long rides)

Ortleibs are nice panniers. I will mention a few things to consider though...

First...
I think a deciding factor in what panniers to choose is whether you like lots of pockets and compartments or one big compartment.

Personally I like one big compartment and I organize my stuff with gallon Ziploc bags. I find that arrangement lighter and more flexible. I also spend less time searching to find which pocket something is in. I figure the fact that they are waterproof is a bonus.

Some folks find a lot of pockets an advantage and are willing to accept the weight and the fact that the bags are not waterproof.

Next...
I personally like the cheaper nashbar or performance waterproof model panniers. They are very inexpensive and I have found them sufficiently durable. Mine have been on a Trans America and a couple other longish tours and are holding up well. My daughter has used her's for the TA and a month in the Sierras as well as for quite a lot of commuting. Her's are holding up well too.

Not everyone shares my enthusiasm for these panniers but I can afford Ortleibs and have no plans to upgrade. If you are on a budget I would definitely consider the nashbar or performance ones.

I don't follow that, am I missing something? Front racks are typically cheaper aren't they? I know the low riders that I use are very inexpensive.

Are they? I have never looked around much beyond the $100+ ones. If decent low riders are available at comparable prices to a standard rear rack, then disregard my suggestion. The rack I used was laying around in my pile of extra bike stuff - so no new purchase was necessary.

Are they? I have never looked around much beyond the $100+ ones. If decent low riders are available at comparable prices to a standard rear rack, then disregard my suggestion. The rack I used was laying around in my pile of extra bike stuff - so no new purchase was necessary.

Actually, we've had a tough time finding cheap, front low rider racks. In fact, we were planning on going with Blackburn front and rear, and found the EX-1 for the back at about $32, while the low rider for the front is about $40. So we'll definitely consider your suggestion, thanks.

And staehpj1, I looked in particular for the low riders you mentioned, to no avail really. The few cheap low riders I did find, made by Axiom mostly, were accompanied by really poor reviews.

Update:

Found our racks today guys, thanks for the help. Got Topeak Super Tourist rear racks for $34 shipped and got Performance low rider front racks for $21 shipped after lots of shopping around.

Found our racks today guys, thanks for the help. Got Topeak Super Tourist rear racks for $34 shipped and got Performance low rider front racks for $21 shipped after lots of shopping around.

Do you have a link to the Performance low riders? I looked but couldn't find them..

Do you have a link to the Performance low riders? I looked but couldn't find them..

Right now I can't find the link for the one from Performance or the one from Nashbar. They tend to go in and out of stock so hopefully they will be back. I think full price might have been something like $30, but they were often on sale much cheaper. Of the ones we have I like the Performance one a bit better. It is made out of larger diameter tubing while the Nasnbar one is of smaller diameter stock that looks like it is solid rod.

Basically they are both a clone of the venerable Blackburn Lowrider.

The Blackburn can be found here (http://www.bikepro.com/products/racks/black_racks.html), but it is $39.99. The Nashbar is a dead ringer for it.
http://www.bikepro.com/products/racks/rack_jpg/c_fl1_rack.jpg

Do you have a link to the Performance low riders? I looked but couldn't find them..


Right now I can't find the link for the one from Performance or the one from Nashbar. They tend to go in and out of stock so hopefully they will be back. I think full price might have been something like $30, but they were often on sale much cheaper. Of the ones we have I like the Performance one a bit better. It is made out of larger diameter tubing while the Nasnbar one is of smaller diameter stock that looks like it is solid rod.

Basically they are both a clone of the venerable Blackburn Lowrider.

The Blackburn can be found here (http://www.bikepro.com/products/racks/black_racks.html), but it is $39.99. The Nashbar is a dead ringer for it.
http://www.bikepro.com/products/racks/rack_jpg/c_fl1_rack.jpg

Update: They arrived, and they seem solid, plenty of mounting hardware, and adequate instructions, but I'm not sure there is actually any connection to Performance or Nashbar. The product number corresponds to a company called Massload, which seems to sell in Europe. Still, no complaints, though I have not even mounted them.

We could not find either rack retail, we actually bought them from eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NASHBAR-PERFORMANCE-LOW-RIDER-BICYCLE-FORK-FRONT-RACK-/290465090619?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

Different strokes, but I like my Blackburn EX-1 rear rack and Performance low rider front rack just fine. Similarly the Nashbar lowrider and EX-1 on my daughter's bike are quite adequate. There is no compelling need for anything better regardless of the tour length. We used them for the Trans America and other longish tours and I will probably use them for long tours for the rest of my life.

Don't get me wrong, the Tubus racks are nice, but the EX-1 and Nashbar are a fraction of the cost and completely adequate. If the budget is not a factor and you want the Tubus stuff great. Just don't think it is a necessity especially if the budget is tight.

Well, that's good to know and gives me a more confidence in my front rack. I may just have to hold onto it until it bites the dust, assuming it ever does.

It's kind of a moot point for the time being, at least in the touring context. I only have one set of panniers at the moment, so the the only use I've gotten out of the front rack has been with my Topeak rack trunk on the rear w/ panniers folded down and my Axioms on the front on a day I planned ahead and knew I needed to bring a lot of clothes home from the office. I'm thinking about picking up a set of cheaper Axiom Seymours to use on the front rack to go along w/ my Axiom Lasalles on the rear so I can have panniers front and back for fully loaded touring. My upcoming tour is only an overnighter, though, so I think I can wait on the pannier purchase...