Touring - Environmentally friendly superb rear and front panniers - do they exist?

Hello bikers,

I am looking for a pair of front and rear panniers that preferably are very environmentally friendly.

Rear panniers at least 40 liter volume and front about 15 liter volume.

I've found the Ortlieb Greenpeace line - and they also appear to be the kind of quality I'm looking for - however do you know if there are others that are less expensive and maybe in natural materials?

Thanks for looking ;)

Jesper

I would think the most environmentally friendly ones would be these neat rectangular cat litter buckets I saw at the pet store. They would involve the least amount of energy for their construction and be eminently recyclable.

Second on the buckets. If you're looking for environmentally friendly reuse outdoes recycling.

Manufactured:
http://www.cobbworks.com/

DIY:
http://www.bicycletouring101.com/BikeDIYPanniers.htm

carradice .

Hmmm.... thanks for your suggestions ... inspiring, although I have a somewhat different sense of aesthetics which precludes buckets. But the idea is definitely worth considering....

Thanks again ;-)

Jesper

Carradice make them from cotton canvas. Mine have lasted 15yrs so far. They have all modern conveniences (QR hooks) and are repairable.

I just checked out carradice - looks interesting and it appears they can also be quite big. Appreciate your suggestion!

Jesper

.... yet, as I will be going to very hot areas it is preferred that they are in bright colors. I can't see that carradice makes bright color panniers - any have suggestions?

Thanks,

Jesper

Isn't buying used the most environmentally sensitive option?

you could go with the axiom dutch shopper. they're quite large, come in a burnt orange color, and curently on sale here (http://www.modernbike.com/itemgroup.asp?IGPK=2126177632).

Isn't buying used the most environmentally sensitive option?

Yes.

Cotton is probably the least environmentally responsible material there is. Patagonia has some info on that.

Actually the most "environmentally friendly" bags are going to be the ones that will last you a lifetime. It does little good if you buy something made of environmentally friendly materials and the tatters end up in a land fill a couple of years after you bought it.

Panniers don't just magically appear and teleport themselves to you. As soon as you involve manufacturing and shipping ... much of the environmentally friendliness will be gone.

Panniers don't just magically appear and teleport themselves to you. As soon as you involve manufacturing and shipping ... much of the environmentally friendliness will be gone.

:thumb:

Yup! Cotton is a renewable resource so it gets some points for that versus some of the plastic/nylon/chemical based stuff. And yes I know how cotton is grown. It can be grown with less impact but at much lower yields.

Aaron :)

There was a thread awhile back about Ortliebs and their environmental impact that may interest you.

http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-381430.html

I'll second what others said, go used. I found a full set or classic ortliebs in excellent condition used on Ebay, I've been using them for years.

Hmmm... thank you all for your comments & suggestions. I read parts of pasopia's link, and actually just yesterday I surfed Ortlieb's webpages and to my surprise noticed that they still use PVC for their "Classic" panniers.

To me physical items, like the panniers, are not just physical items with a size, color, fabric, weight etc. They also carry with them a "feel", or what in spiritual terms might be called an "energy", which, as I experience it, is partly composed of what goes into making the item. That could be people's intention when making the item, how making the item affects the manufacturing workers, how is the nature affected, overall working conditions, the materials themselves etc. I often sense it as an emotional or mental "imprint" that is associated with the item. And to me it's just not very pleasant to buy or use items that carry with them a less than positive imprint. So I'd rather not use PVC but hope to find an overall pannier concept that is pleasant to be with on all levels.

@ mr geeker: Took a look at the axiom bags - they are a bit too small, though, but thanks for the link.

It may also be relevant to say that I will be going a very long distance with the bags so they just need to last ...

Buying second hand is an option.

So, to sum up: I'd still appreciate suggestions for environmentally and "production people" friendly panniers that are very durable, water and moisture proof, preferably in light colors and for the rear panniers at a volume of no less than 40 liters. Might it be found?

Again, thanks for looking :-)

Hmmm... thank you all for your comments & suggestions. I read parts of pasopia's link, and actually just yesterday I surfed Ortlieb's webpages and to my surprise noticed that they still use PVC for their "Classic" panniers.

To me physical items, like the panniers, are not just physical items with a size, color, fabric, weight etc. They also carry with them a "feel", or what in spiritual terms might be called an "energy", which, as I experience it, is partly composed of what goes into making the item. That could be people's intention when making the item, how making the item affects the manufacturing workers, how is the nature affected, overall working conditions, the materials themselves etc. I often sense it as an emotional or mental "imprint" that is associated with the item. And to me it's just not very pleasant to buy or use items that carry with them a less than positive imprint. So I'd rather not use PVC but hope to find an overall pannier concept that is pleasant to be with on all levels.

@ mr geeker: Took a look at the axiom bags - they are a bit too small, though, but thanks for the link.

It may also be relevant to say that I will be going a very long distance with the bags so they just need to last ...

Buying second hand is an option.

So, to sum up: I'd still appreciate suggestions for environmentally and "production people" friendly panniers that are very durable, water and moisture proof, preferably in light colors and for the rear panniers at a volume of no less than 40 liters. Might they be found e.g. second hand?

Again, thanks for looking :-)

Jesper

Second on the buckets. If you're looking for environmentally friendly reuse outdoes recycling.

Manufactured:
http://www.cobbworks.com/

DIY:
http://www.bicycletouring101.com/BikeDIYPanniers.htm

yep, those are squarish ones but the ones I saw at Pet Smart were more rectangular and slightly rounded, about 8" x 10" or so. Gotta think of the aerodynamics ya know.

Hmmm... thank you all for your comments & suggestions. I read parts of pasopia's link, and actually just yesterday I surfed Ortlieb's webpages and to my surprise noticed that they still use PVC for their "Classic" panniers.

To me physical items, like the panniers, are not just physical items with a size, color, fabric, weight etc. They also carry with them a "feel", or what in spiritual terms might be called an "energy", which, as I experience it, is partly composed of what goes into making the item. That could be people's intention when making the item, how making the item affects the manufacturing workers, how is the nature affected, overall working conditions, the materials themselves etc. I often sense it as an emotional or mental "imprint" that is associated with the item. And to me it's just not very pleasant to buy or use items that carry with them a less than positive imprint. So I'd rather not use PVC but hope to find an overall pannier concept that is pleasant to be with on all levels.

@ mr geeker: Took a look at the axiom bags - they are a bit too small, though, but thanks for the link.

It may also be relevant to say that I will be going a very long distance with the bags so they just need to last ...

Buying second hand is an option.

So, to sum up: I'd still appreciate suggestions for environmentally and "production people" friendly panniers that are very durable, water and moisture proof, preferably in light colors and for the rear panniers at a volume of no less than 40 liters. Might they be found e.g. second hand?

Again, thanks for looking :-)

Jesper

How about the Trek Bontrager Interchange Grocery Pannier Eco, which is an oversized grocery pannier made from 51% recycled materials. Here's an article you can read on Eco Velo. http://www.ecovelo.info/2010/01/30/bontrager-interchange-grocery-pannier-eco/

@ mr geeker: Took a look at the axiom bags - they are a bit too small, though, but thanks for the link.

It may also be relevant to say that I will be going a very long distance with the bags so they just need to last ...



Axioms come in many different sizes. I have the LaSalles which have been with me through thousands of km of cycling/touring. They accompanied me on about 1000K of touring in Europe in 2003, 5000K of touring in Australia in 2004, another 1200 km of touring in Europe in 2007, about 700 km of touring in Australia in 2008, and lots and lots of km of touring in North America ... so getting on for 10,000 km of touring over the past 7 or 8 years. They've been dragged here and there, they've been through all sorts of weather, I lived out of them for three months in 2004 .............. and they still look as good as new.

I recommend taking another look at the Axioms.

http://www.rondswan.com/index.php?p=1

Make your own out of something that has lived it's purpose, but has much life left in it (if you are that concerned about aesthetics as well as being environmentally friendly).

http://www.instructables.com/image/F8LO8YCFMZAFUYD/Army-Surplus-Backpack-Pannier.jpg

So you want bright, durable, big, waterproof, natural-fiber panniers? I think at some point you're going to have to compromise. Did you have the same requirements for your bike and its parts, your clothes, your camping gear?

Buying used, durable items may be the best option. Not all Ortliebs have PVC, but they are bright, durable and waterproof. Plus, you can sell them to another cycle-tourist years later if you decide to stop touring.

"Light, Strong, Cheap. Choose two." is a popular road bike axiom. In your case, "eco-friendly, durable, waterproof. Choose two." might be closer to the mark. Good luck.

Hi Niknak & thanks for the axiom :-) Well, actually I have for some time been investigating making a recumbent bike from lin fiber and with a suitable adhesive/molding mass. It sort of stopped because I didn't have the experience working with such materials and couldn't find an ecological lin fiber (not woven). Also I considered the recumbent design less suitable for mountain riding etc.

I did find an epoxy, though, where 70% of the ingredients were sourced from natural materials (finnish company). If any of you know of an 100% naturally sourced suitable molding mass for making strong bicycles, without VOCs or otherwise, I'd be pleased to hear about it.

I realise that people might find my approach uncompromising. However, part of my birth "gift" is that these matters tend to affect me and since I do have an aim to be happy on a deeper level, in my world this entails e.g. being gentle to the nature.

BTW if some of you are looking for bike oil, grease etc. that are sourced from ecological ingredients and is biologically degradable then there's green-oil.net. Their bottles are sourced from recycled plastics and their packaging material is degradable. Appears to also be very well reviewed.

To return to the panniers. If I were to make my own panniers and would use a cloth of some kind - do any of you have an idea about how I make the cloth waterproof in a sustainable way?

Best wishes for your day :-)

Jesper

I realise that people might find my approach uncompromising. However, part of my birth "gift" is that these matters tend to affect me and since I do have an aim to be happy on a deeper level, in my world this entails e.g. being gentle to the nature.
Jesper

I think you're compromising a great deal. You can't get more gentle on nature than rescuing something already made from a landfill destination. By recycling as close to the end-product as possible, you'd be making double use of the energy and environmental damage already expended to make the product in the first place.

Going to the fabric store and buying new cotton from the bolt is the least environmentally friendly way to acquire cotton.

Go with the cat litter buckets. They're already waterproof and they'll last you a lifetime.

If you want to make your own panniers, start collecting bicycle tubes. Most people toss them in the garbage anyway (rubber, landfill - anyone?). I was going to make my own MIP bags or panniers for my trip, but decided against it. From my information gathering though, ~25 700c/20 tubes would have got me a 17/14 (17 top, 14 bottom) x 8 x 20 pannier/ bag. Sew it so the seams are pointed downward, and create a bathtub lid, and your bag will be waterproof and indestructible.

You could also have someone make them for you. There are plenty of bike tube 'crafters' out there. I also looked into that, as we have a popular one locally (Cherry Bombin' Wear), but decided against it all. At a later date I will craft my own.

http://www.patagonia.com/web/eu/patagonia.go?slc=en_GB&sct=GB&&assetid=9023

http://vimeo.com/7353589

www.pathlesspedaled.com

I don't understand your question. How do you define environmentally friendly, particularly for something like panniers? It might help to understand your reasoning. Things aren't always what they appear. I'm all for protecting the environment, but sometimes it can be taken to extremes and what seems like a simple question is not. For example, have you ever waded into the paper vs. plastic debate for grocery bags?

In the case of something like panniers, the common-sense choice to me would be to buy the product that will last the longest.

As others have said, the least environmental damage is done by the panniers that already exist, but aren't being used by someone else. Try to find used.
Failing that, find something (bags) that could be easily modified to suit. If I wanted to waterproof a canvas bag, I'd iron leftover Christmas candles into it.
Failing that, buy the most durable bags you can find so you never have to do it again.

On the subject of chain lube, I use the unwanted Christmas candles on those too. I have a glut of them. Melted in a soup can with some Vaseline, chain is soaked in the wax, then wiped off. I've enjoyed long chain life and long intervals between soaks using this technique. The wax can be reused repeatedly.

I've been thinking about this too, and to me it seems the Ortlieb Greenpeace might come close. Carradice and other cotton based manufacturers too, if you can verify production methods and how the cotton was grown.

However, all "environmentally friendly" certifications and assurances come with a price. It's always more complicated to establish reliable and auditable chains of production as compared to "get the cheapest material that meets specs, buy the cheapest legal labor that can put it all together and pass QC" thinking. If one wants to pay attention to these things, I think added cost should be expected. As to when exactly there's too much added cost, or whether it stems from relevant factors is highly subjective of course. As shown already, it can be argued that a second-hand pair of PVC Ortliebs is the most environmentally friendly choice in some circumstances.

--J

I've found the Ortlieb Greenpeace line - and they also appear to be the kind of quality I'm looking for - however do you know if there are others that are less expensive and maybe in natural materials?

I don't think the greenpeace ones are meaningfully different from just the 'plus' line. The 'plus' are definitely superb enough.

Hi everyone

uuuhhh - how wondrous it is that most all subjects seem to have unknown depths to them when they are "opened". Maybe sort of like a Pandora's box.

I appreciate your comments and suggestions, to me they help clarify matters. As it is I have quite some beeswax saved and also some fine lin-fiber-cloth samples that I purchased from an importer of textiles. There's a recycle station nearby where I may find stainless steel rods - I also have some bamboo. Altogether, I guess this could make for a couple of attractive panniers (if the beeswax can be made to sustain higher temperatures).

And if I chose to not make my own panniers, you have now provided me with a selection of links & names for manufacturers - also to be used buying second hand. It's my impression that I now know what I was seeking advice for.

Regarding what is environmentally friendly: I happen to live in Copenhagen and was loosely associated with Klimaforum09, one of the major organisations setting up arrangements in parallel with the COP15. On an occasion I spoke with the "chairman" (?) of Klimaforum, who also happens to be a civil engineer at the Danish Technical University. When talking about materials he said that he does not believe that there is a "perfect material" - he had witnessed on so many occasions that a fantastic new material eventually has setbacks. Personally, I'm leaning towards the cradle-to-cradle philosophy but assume that it will take a good deal of time before science, engineering, manufacturing and not least consumers have shifted towards a positive & contributing presence on earth. In the mean time ways have to be found ....

Thanks again for your feedback,

Jesper

H
To return to the panniers. If I were to make my own panniers and would use a cloth of some kind - do any of you have an idea about how I make the cloth waterproof in a sustainable way?
Jesper

You'd make them out of urethane coated nylon, and not pretend that magical thinking is the same thing as reducing environmental impact. You appear firmly stuck in the "if it's a plant, it's better than anything else" delusion, and ignore the actual inputs required for product, particularly over the life of the product. DWR nylon will keep its waterproofness for the life of the product. Linseed oil and beeswax (the traditional method of waterproofing cotton, it's what waxed cotton stuff is, though most of it is done with petroleum waxes.) won't, nor will it last as long, and it requires substantial energy input for the application process, which almost certainly comes from fossil fuels.

The least impact solution is the plastic buckets. Second is a used set (better: fixing a used set that was destined for trash). Making your own probably fall a distant fourth, after "buying a commerically available product".