Mountain Biking - rider attitudes and ettiquette + trail access

howdy all,

so i've now been living in Germany for just over 3 years now...

next month i am presenting at our local MTB club meeting about rider ettiquette, trail care and maintenance and will also be doing a comparision with the US.
since it's now been a while i wanted to get some input to see if things i remember are "real" or just my warped sense of how i thought things were...

are new riders "learned" to and not to do certain things?
like :
* stay on the trail
* don't ride/create switchbacks
* don't make the trail wider by riding around puddles, mudholes
* don't make the trial easier by removing technical obstacles like rocks
* don't lock up the rear brake, skid excessively
* if it is REALLY wet and muddy either don't ride or only ride more durable trails

for more frequent riders:
* pick up fallen branches or remove fallen trees when small and can be done quickly?
* do small trail maintenance ever so often, especially on trails one rides frequently?
* comment or inform others when they are excessively damaging or destroying the trail?

* do most riders feel they individually are also responsible for taking care of the trail through riding style as well as maintanance or is it "someone else's problem"

* what percentage of trails that you ride were build with mountain biking as an intended use?
* do you have conflicts with autos/motorcycles/horses?
* do you have conflicts with hikers? and how do you ride around hikers? (i.e. ringing a bell, blast by forcing them off "my" trail, slow down, verbally inform them, dismount?)

* do you have problems with trail access on either/both public and private trails? are there lots of hiking trails that are closed to mountain bikers?

from my perspective, Germany and the Alps are about 5 to 10 years behind the US/Canada in attitudes and trail access and the rider/hiker conflict is becoming a big issue here with trail closures... on the other hand there are distinct differences such as the US having much more open land and Germany having a history of more strict regulations (currently in many provinces cycling is allowed by law on all paths/trails/roads that are at least a given width - usually 3 to 6 feet wide!!! - but no fun for technical MTB riding)

anyhow, any comments or perspectives to the above questions will be helpful.

and of course, perspectives from places outside the US such as Australia would also be helpful...

-nathan

Nathank,



are new riders "learned" to and not to do certain things?
like :
* stay on the trail
* don't ride/create switchbacks
* don't make the trail wider by riding around puddles, mudholes
* don't make the trial easier by removing technical obstacles like rocks
* don't lock up the rear brake, skid excessively
* if it is REALLY wet and muddy either don't ride or only ride more durable trails


Yes, this is heavily taught. However creating using switchbacks is not. That tends to be a common way to help reduce speed on trails. HOwever when creating switchbacks the person building should have gone out during a rainy session to avoid runoffs. If a runoff is unavoidable a ladder or something bypassing it is created to remove damage. Its the Canadian way ;) Otherwise everything you state there is a must, out here we especially enforce the rule about removing obstacles. If you can't handle the trail go to an easier one :)



for more frequent riders:
* pick up fallen branches or remove fallen trees when small and can be done quickly?
* do small trail maintenance ever so often, especially on trails one rides frequently?
* comment or inform others when they are excessively damaging or destroying the trail?

* do most riders feel they individually are also responsible for taking care of the trail through riding style as well as maintanance or is it "someone else's problem


This is done. On the west coast there are many riding clubs that do maintenance and helping them in any way is a good thing. There is a lot of mutual respect amongst builders/riders. The only not done during maitenance is removal of stunts/obstacles without builders permission. Again, never change the trail to make it easier, it was likely hard for a reason.



* what percentage of trails that you ride were build with mountain biking as an intended use?
* do you have conflicts with autos/motorcycles/horses?
* do you have conflicts with hikers? and how do you ride around hikers? (i.e. ringing a bell, blast by forcing them off "my" trail, slow down, verbally inform them, dismount?)


I would say most were cut for hikers etc. But have been taken over by bikers. There are dedicated horse trails and dedicated hikers trails. No intermixing and if there is (hiker on a bike trail) the hiker knows its his/her responsibility to hop off. You don't go where you don't belong without being courtious.



* do you have problems with trail access on either/both public and private trails? are there lots of hiking trails that are closed to mountain bikers


In BC particularily the ride groups work really closely with the municipalities to keep trail access alive. They also work hard in the political side of things to help get knowledge out there to the public. We have had disputes on the shore but there is a lot of give and take to make sure trails stay open AND the public is made happy. A lot of what made the 'shore' the shore is the fact we wanted to preserve the environment to some degree (I say we...but really I was not around back then) Its a balancing act that requires lots of communication.

Hope that helps. The groups up here work really hard as do the riders to make sure there is always trail access. It really is a beautiful thing in how it all works. We have an abundance of trails on and off the mountain that are all excellent and varrying in degrees of difficulty. We try to accomodate all types of riders from the guys who climb to the guys who huck.

BEst of luck :)

http://www.nsmba.bc.ca/cms/

Here is the bc organization working so hard in out province. We also have small muni groups works in the forefront.

hey thanks Maestrom...

you pretty much reinforced what i remember from the West Coast.

unfortunately Germany/Europe is a lot different. on my local trails where 100s of riders ride every week, if a tree branch falls and i for some reason don't pick it up, it is still there 2 or 3 weeks later until _I_ finally pick it up. for me it is shocking (in comparision last December i was in Philadelphia and rode a trail at 8am with a bunch of fallen trees. i cleared a small path. on my return trip 2 hours later someone had already build a ramp from the fallen trees!) --- last spring i got so irritated that trails were never cleared (like >3 months and a fallen log was _still_ there), i now carry a small tree saw and clear the stuff myself. problem is that it is not really "allowed" here as i am not "authorized" to maintain the trail.

riders here take almost no responsibility for their damage or trail maintenance - trail maintenance is the job of "someone else" usually someone official from the government.

so more and more riders are out there and almost none do any trail maint and many rider poorly (skidding rear tire, riding around obstacles, etc) and there is all kinds of talk of closing trails.

i guess what most bothers me is that rather than FIRST trying to educate the riders how to reduce damage and do some of their own maintenance, the first option is "Close it to mountain bikers".

i have been to a few local government meetings here representing my MTB club and i think that has helped... i am also trying to work with the authorities to get permission to maintain/sign/improve a local MTB trail that REALLY needs work... but it's been 2 months already and no permission :(

anyway, i'm hoping to try the grass-roots method of educating riders and teaching them to teach others (it's also amazing here - when you ride in a group and someone does smoething like ride around an obstacle or a puddle or skids the rear tire on a small singletrail NO ONE else says anything --> when on the US/Canada West Coast you would be heavily scolded for such action!)

and yeah, i would also like to organize trail maintenance groups, but as everywhere it takes time to get the authorities' permission. the problem here is that most of the MTB trails are not technically "legal" and if the government recognizes them as "legal" and allows officially-sanctioned maintenance then they are worried about liability (i.e. when someone wipes out b/c the trail was NOT maintained)

the current direction it looks like Europe is headed towards:
1) bike parks and official MTB areas/trails (fee to ride!)
2) "cycling" trails meaning non-technical fire roads and paved paths
3) otherwise no mountain biking allowed - and all MTBing on "illegal" trails

this isn't currently on of my goals, but as to REALLY technical stuff like ramps, build-ups and "north shore" stuff, how is the legal liability aspect addressed? we had a local section with ramps and such (was pretty cool!) and then last fall a youngster (13 or so) wiped out pretty bad and when the paramedics came to treat him they couldn't access the trail so called the fire department medics who then notified the police of the "illegal trails and ramps" and all subsequently all the ramps were torn down and the trails were closed as they were afraid the parents would sue...

the only "officially tolerated" thing we have here is a dirt jump area under a local bridge where a bunch of local riders have worked it out with the local authorities. but only jumps, doubles, dirt drops and banked curves are allowed: no wooden ramps, no skinnies, etc.

thanks. as before, more perspectives would be great!

Down here in FL, the trail maintenance is done by the local clubs. There are several "work days" scheduled each month. Education is done via signage at the trailhead and through each clubs website. That leaves the responsibility to learn on the rider, so many times it's not done. We "self police" and if a person sees a rider doing something inappropriately, we try to "suggest" proper behavior.

The biggest issue where I ride is "lack of helmet" use.

As far as trail ettiquette, when I take people riding, I try to offer "hints" and "how to's", with the people I'm with.

We have such a lack of good riding trails down here that maintaining them isn't a problem as many riders are directly involved on "work days", so there are Club members riding the trails almost every day.

L8R

In the uk the general feeling towards bikes is a negative one, (if you ride off road). Another 'unspoken commandment' is that you leave the trail how you found it. This either means no skidding whatsoever or if you skid backtrack and clear it up. You are allowed to ride whatever the conditions as far as im aware, because there is mud everywhere even in summer in the UK!! You are encouraged to move unintended obstacles eg branches and some county councils recommend taking a pair of hedge clippers to trim away spiky stuff. On the whole, its a case of 'you want to ride it, you take care of it'. Some areas owned by the natianol trust are closed off to bikers because they ruin the land. ie skidding. Barely any of the paths around me were made for biking, but i am in east anglia.... 300ft above sea level.......

riders here take almost no responsibility for their damage or trail maintenance - trail maintenance is the job of "someone else" usually someone official from the government.

so more and more riders are out there and almost none do any trail maint and many rider poorly (skidding rear tire, riding around obstacles, etc) and there is all kinds of talk of closing trails.

i guess what most bothers me is that rather than FIRST trying to educate the riders how to reduce damage and do some of their own maintenance, the first option is "Close it to mountain bikers".



Sentence one and two usually cause 3. Its an unfortunate circle.



this isn't currently on of my goals, but as to REALLY technical stuff like ramps, build-ups and "north shore" stuff, how is the legal liability aspect addressed? we had a local section with ramps and such (was pretty cool!) and then last fall a youngster (13 or so) wiped out pretty bad and when the paramedics came to treat him they couldn't access the trail so called the fire department medics who then notified the police of the "illegal trails and ramps" and all subsequently all the ramps were torn down and the trails were closed as they were afraid the parents would sue...


In Canada, for now (please never become america I beg you canadian justice system), there is still a deep belief in personal liability. People do fall, people do get hurt but the lawsuits are non existant and usually not resulting in coin. Also for really technical stuff the builders have gates that they lock to stop riders from trying it (with big signs ect) However as more americans come up here this might turn around and bite us in the ass. The enjoyment we get by offering what we offer might come to bite us in the ass if the wrong american comes up here and does something stupid. Once one case goes down it is like a rolling ball of kangeroo justice....scary.



the only "officially tolerated" thing we have here is a dirt jump area under a local bridge where a bunch of local riders have worked it out with the local authorities. but only jumps, doubles, dirt drops and banked curves are allowed: no wooden ramps, no skinnies, etc.


Sounds like the jumpers have the right idea...too bad other riders didn't take notice.

where do you ride round Munich? I am also a recent Münchener

hey royalflash!

i live in the "Au" (Giesing) about 2.5km SE of the center of munich directly on the Isar river bike path (yes, on purpose of course - my "commute" to work is 3km of riding along the river with ZERO traffic lights!). i am a MTB Guide for the Munich section of the DAV (club is called M97 - see our website www.m97.de)

i usually lead a weekly ride where we ride the Isar-Trails every Wednesday night at 6:30pm (we meet on the SE side of the Thalkirchner brücke near the Tierpark). unfortunately this year is kind of disorganized as i tore my ACL skiing and had surgery in March (back "seriously" riding since June) and then i've been out on MTB vacations most weeks and also visit my girlfriend who lives outside of Munich... but even when i am not there, the group will ride, although currently it's kind of "hard-core" with lots of fast riders... a 2nd guide (Silvia) sometimes leads a more relaxed group but she's also often away (she was also on our 9-day TransAlp tour last week)

on the weekend i of course ride in the mountains: mostly Garmisch, Tegernsee, Lenggries, Mittenwald... i am a technical Freeride who also loves uphill (typical ride is 2000 meters vertical with 1-2 technical downhills) -- from Munich for day-trips there is a LOT of cool stuff -- within 2 hours by train or car from Munich are SO many tours... and then a little further and you have all of the Austrian Alps (this weekend i am probably riding a 2-day Freeride tour with 5000 meters vertical in Sölden Austria - it's pretty far: almost 3 hours by car)

the last 4-6 months or so (since i got my new job which is much more interesting) i haven't been as active on the forums. but i wasn't aware there was anyone else from Munich - there is hardly anyone in Germany/Austria here...

so you American too? or where ya from?

Hi Nathank

I am British and been living for 6 and half years in Perlach. Perlach is about 8km south east of the city centre if you have not been there. I have cycled along your Isar river bike path quite a few times. There is some really artistic graffiti as I remember under the bridges. I saw some of your earlier posts and ChrisL said there was someone else from Munich but that you had not been very active recently and I guessed he meant you.

I started cycle-commuting from Perlach to the Bayerstrasse (near Hauptbahnhof) about 4 years ago (about 11 km each way). I started just in the summer and on nice days but now I am completely addicted and cycle every day. It is great fun if you manage get to work in one piece (which I have so far). I can do it in about 35 minutes give or take.

The MTB thing sounds like fun. Maybe I should come and give it a try sometime. I have got an MTB hardtail. Sounds like you are all quite hard core though (5000 metres is a lot of vertical) so I guess I would be dropped in the first 5 minutes.

hey Royalflash!

Perlach... well, i think it's in the direction of NewPerlach...

i am also a dedicated year-round bike commuter - since 1998 FULL time even when it snows or rains - i was also a full-time bike commuter during my undergraduate days, then only part time from 1994-1997... my first 2.5 years i munich i had a round trip of 22 to 28km so similar to yours (i rode to Ascheim/Reim/Dornach which is East of the center or north of you)

as to mountain biking: drop by one of our monthly meetings: last Tuesday of the month at 8:30pm in the DAV Alpinmuseum -- next month i will be presenting on trail responsibility/maintenance --- or check out our website. we had organized tours for all levels... and most of the members are not so hard-core as i am (i ride 10,000km and over 80,000 meters vertical per year). we have lots of "recreational" riders from all levels. for my 1st level Fahrtechnik courses over half just bought a new MTB...

WHEN the "after-work biking" (as it is called) on Wednesdays is properly organized it is also good for not so hard-core riders too.

wow! sechs jahre ist schon lang! bleibst du noch länger? schreib einfach eine private nachricht, wenn wir weiter über dieses theme reden wollen...

In Canada, for now (please never become america I beg you canadian justice system), there is still a deep belief in personal liability. People do fall, people do get hurt but the lawsuits are non existant and usually not resulting in coin. Also for really technical stuff the builders have gates that they lock to stop riders from trying it (with big signs ect) However as more americans come up here this might turn around and bite us in the ass. The enjoyment we get by offering what we offer might come to bite us in the ass if the wrong american comes up here and does something stupid. Once one case goes down it is like a rolling ball of kangeroo justice....scary.
i totally aggre with you there... the US system is so open for abuse...

for me the difference was most obvious in relation to Ski Areas. in Whistler a roped-off area or trail or whatever basically means "this area is officially closed and you cross at your own risk. if something happens the ski area is not responsible". if there is some specific danger like avalanches or a cliff then the sign states that. My friends and i got into a lot of trouble when we had been at Whistler for 9 days a few weeks earlier and got used to this philosophy and did the same in the Lake Tahoe area (Kirchwood or maybe Sqauw?): we crossed over a roped-off area (that was safe and was opened to the public about an hour later) and got stopped by ski patrol and got our tickets taken away and had to beg to get them back. b/c of the stupid liability issues in the US even with a huge sign and all kinds of stuff the ski areas STILL get sued if someone goes into the backcountry and something happens!

as to skiing: Europe in contrast is somewere in the middle. In Germany and Austria basically NO ONE breaks the rules so they don't really know how to react. In Italy no one cares and in France everyone does it so it is assumed you know what you're doing on the glacier or whatever. Personally i think the way Canada handles it is probably the best (although France seems pretty cool too although i don't know the underlying legal specifics)... although the strategy in the Mt Baker Washington is not bad: for backcountry (out-of-bounds) they have a huge sign saying it is closed and you can only enter with the proper safety equipment (avalanche beacon, shovel, probes, experience) and they often have someone there checking...

in Europe there is a much stronger sense of personal liability although legally as i understand it things are not SO much different. for example, in Austria PURELY b/c of liability reasons most landowners post "No Biking" signs on any trails that cross their land. this is almost always not b/c they don't want cyclists, but so that is there is an accident they simply say "cycling is not allowed here so i am not responsible" -- the negative side is that almost everyone is frequently riding on "forbidden" trails which is not so cool...