Folding Bikes - New to folding questions (700c road bike enthusiast)

I am a fairly avid cycling enthusiast. I ride a standard road bike 700c wheels and love to do long, hilly rides. My standard "commute" is 22 miles each way with about 2000 ft of climbing. I am in the Bay Area and would love to occasionally take my bike on BART (http://www.bart.gov) if I am tired, rain or w/e. According to their Bikes on Bart (http://www.bart.gov/guide/bikes/index.aspx) page they state: "Folding bikes are allowed at any time."

So I was hoping for a suggestion as to a folder that would meet BART's folding requirements but ride like my road bike (i.e. I would at least want speedplay x pedals, drop handlebars. 700c tires and not ludicrously heavy (my "nice" road bike is a merlin extralight). I don't know if such a beast exists but maybe you could point me in the right direction.

Ive seen the Dahon Tournado but that doesn't seem like a folder for trains, but rather breaks down for travel. The Montegue Navigator looks ok if I can replace the bars, the pedals, take off all the racks and fenders, etc.

Any comments or suggestions? Thank you in advance.

700c tires is going to be your problem, but gearing will be fine. Accept the notion that you need smaller wheels. I suggest you look at Bike Friday (http://bikefriday.com) and Xootr Swift (http://www.xootr.com/index.html). Check out Warm Planet Bikes; Chain Reaction; and Velo Sport for Bike Friday. And check out OceanWorks (in Berkeley) for Swifts.

bike friday pocket rocket (http://community.bikefriday.com/pocketrocket) range, there's also pocket sport and pocket rocket pro (http://community.bikefriday.com/node/1591).
moulton AM or TSR (http://www.moultonbicycles.co.uk/models.html) range
Dahon speed pro TT (http://www.dahon.com/bikes/2010/speed-pro-tt) although this is only bull horns instead of drop bars.

there are more, but I can't remember them at this time.

I would personally recommend trying out some of the 20" wheeled road folders before discounting them as viable. The smaller wheelsize allows for a much smaller folded package, and the good ones have adjusted geometry and gearing in order to keep the experience nearly identical.

The Bike Friday Pocket Rocket Pro and Pocket Rocket are seriously good road bikes.

Dahon makes a few very road worthy choices, like the Speed Pro TT and Hammerhead, you could change the bars out as you like.

And there are a few others which I know of but have not personally got a lot of experience with, like the Pacific Reach racing.

I take my Brompton on the subway here in Philly all the time. It's small enough to fit between seats, so it doesn't annoy people by taking up too much room. The bike folds so that the gears are inside (between the wheels) and therefore won't get grease on you or another passenger as you squeeze into a crowded car. If you need to stop for groceries on your way home, you can fold it partially withthe handlebars up and attach a shopping bag to the bars and wheel it around like a cart. The Brompton is pricier than other folders for sure, but I use this bike for just about everything, so the price was worth it to me. I agree with the others--don't discount the smaller wheels. I regularly ride 15 miles per day and often pass regular-sized bikes (with a lot more gears) going up hills. It's very comfortable.

Bike Friday might be the best fit for your needs. If you have the power or unlimited budget, condider the Molton TSR.

Good luck on your final decision and please come back to let us know what route you ended up taking.

I'm an avid roadie also. I have looked long and far and spent $$s to try to replicate the roadie experience on a folder. You'll come close, but you won't find an exact duplicate.

I would say the Pacific Reach is the closet approximation you'll find. BruceMetras on this forum carries them. He's in San Rafael. The Dahon Speed Pro is good to look at also.

The Swift is also a good choice to look at, but you run out of high gears unless you modify. The Moulton won't fold the way you need. Bike Fridays will work well, but they're pricey and don't really fold well for Bart. These bikes are not 700C wheels, but you'll find that won't be a problem. I ride 20" wheels all the time for training rides. I can barely tell the difference anymore.

I have a bunch of folders (including the Moulton, Bike Friday, Brompton) and I'm in Half Moon Bay. If you want, you're welcome to come over and try them. PM me if you're interested.

Blindbat - I'm with you, 700c's are where its at !
Check out Pacific-cycles IF Urban 700c (http://www.pacific-cycles.com/product3.asp?cat1=1&cat2=4&pid=30). It folds to bring the wheels together, so you can roll it. There are no extra bits to take off like stem or front wheel. Pacific now also sell the frame only so you can build it up to your own spec.

So I was hoping for a suggestion as to a folder that would meet BART's folding requirements but ride like my road bike (i.e. I would at least want speedplay x pedals, drop handlebars. 700c tires and not ludicrously heavy (my "nice" road bike is a merlin extralight). I don't know if such a beast exists but maybe you could point me in the right direction.


Any comments or suggestions? Thank you in advance.

Small world, my nice road bike is also a Merlin... If you wanted to stay with larger than 406 or 451mm diameter wheel/tires, I'd recommend an Airnimal Chameleon .. they ride on 520mm hoops, have a rear elastomer to absorb some road shock and have a rear triangle that quickly folds into the front fork (wheel removed) .. I carry a couple here in San Rafael..

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/2449559634_c01f86caca.jpg

http://www.airnimal.com/Chameleon.php

Remember Green Eggs and Ham?

Why don't you test ride a decent 20"-wheel folder? Roughly, they will handle like older bikes that typically had much lower trail than modern road bikes. The increase in portability and packability is significant to warrant a test ride.

Brompton makes an exceptional folding bike, but if you want anything other than a steel frame, look elsewhere.

While this isn't quite what you're looking for, I will say that my Bike Friday Tikit is an excellent approximation of my touring bike. You can doubtless have BF build you a road-worthy bike, and even the steel frame is light. The downside is the cost; don't even consider a BF if your budget is modest. (The BTO Tikit starts at ~2k.)

Dahon makes bikes with aluminum frames. Does anyone know if more exotic frame materials are available ina folding bike?

Bike Fridays will work well, but they're pricey and don't really fold well for Bart.

Not even with the new BF folding stem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVjAxNhcDfM

Kam

I will let you know just how handy the folding stem is. I ordered one for the wife's Crusoe the day they were announced. Delivery is not expected for another two weeks per a conversation this last week with Tim Link at BF.

So I was hoping for a suggestion as to a folder that would meet BART's folding requirements but ride like my road bike (i.e. I would at least want speedplay x pedals, drop handlebars. 700c tires and not ludicrously heavy (my "nice" road bike is a merlin extralight). I don't know if such a beast exists but maybe you could point me in the right direction.



I don't know that what you want exists. The Tournado is a take apart bike as you say and not a good commuter if you need to "fold" it to ride on trains or buses. I am much more familiar with Dahon than other folding brands. I looked at several brands last year and for my purposes Dahon was far and away the best choice so that is what I ride. Dahon does make some 26 inch folders and perhaps with the right tires they could be a starting point for you. It might be possible to have the wheels rebuilt on 700c rims on some of them, if you really must. I think that the Jack and Espresso models would be uninteresting to you. The Matrix might be rebuilt to something approaching your specifications although I'm guessing you would want to ditch the suspension fork. The Cadenza P18 would make a better starting point. Alas, it is not available in the US. You can get an older model Cadenza with an 8 speed IGH from ThorUSA. (http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/2008/cadenza8.htm)

My brief acquaintance with BART leaves me with the impression that it is basically a subway system. Full sized bikes and full sized folders work reasonably well on surface trains. I tried both before buying and decided that I wanted a 20 incher even for the Chicago area Metra trains which are surface trains. For a subway I would not even consider a full sized bike. I'd be looking at bikes like Dahon's 20 inch road oriented models: Mu EX, Smooth Hound, Speed Pro TT, if I wanted a fast, light folder. That was not and is not my personal focus for my commuter so I am quite happy with the Mu P8 that I bought last summer.

Ken

I think I have one medium 18 speed Cadenza left over ...
http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/accessories/oneoff.htm
pretty darn good price as well ..... its a pretty universal bike ..drops and stuff could be added pretty reasonable, however I would leave it as is most likely

for real daily commuting I would however also prefer an 20 incher .....a mu sl would fit the bill
http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/2008/musl.htm
its pretty light for a production folder.....

thor
thor

the only other option would be s&s couplers like the ritchey breakaway or surly traveler check

or a slingshot, if you can find one.

OP here, thanks for all the suggestions. A bike friend pointed out something. I was hoping to ride BART in the morning or evening and ride up the hill and DOWN the hill the other way. The idea would be that its raining in the morning but not in the afternoon or vice-versa. So he was asking me how I felt going down a particularly steep road around here, that stays wet and is in horrible shape. I dont even feel comfortable going down this road on a regular bike so how am I going to feel on a 20" folder?

Would a folder be more appropriate for both legs on BART and not riding the 22 mile leg up and down (that's the part I'm nervous about) one-way? Also for those that don't know BART, regular bikes are allowed any time except commute times. At commute times, sometimes the trains are so crowded it would be hard to shove even a folder on there. You're supposed to use common sense and not piss anyone off.

On normal days I would just take my "commute" bike which is a bit heavier and a bit more robust than my sunny weekend bikes. Im just looking for something to get me through the worst part of the day. The airnimal looks really nice, btw.

The suggestions noted above are all for bikes that can handle a little inclement weather. 20" wheels vs. 700c wheels aren't really going to make that much of a difference if there is rain

As for bad roads... an argument can be made that bigger wheels can handle pot holes better, but I used to commute in Chicago on a 16" wheeled folder (Bike Friday Tikit), and I assure you the roads there were pretty darn nasty. I never had any issues with flats, but then again I didn't use the thinnest tires either.

I strongly suggest that you do some test rides to get a feel for some of the folder options out there. It won't be the same as your 700c road bike, but it's still a fun ride on small wheels.

no problems with pinch flats on 20" wheels. Partially because the narrowest size you can get is 28mm (1-1/8").
the wheels are very sturdy too at that size so they're unlikely to go out of true as well.
good 20" tires give a similar ride quality to good 700c tires.
aside from problems with getting over 90 Gear Inches, there's really no downside to 20" wheels.


if you really want the taller gears, next easiest are folding frames that use 26" MTB wheels. plenty of selection in wheels and tires that offer comparable ride quality to 700c.

if you dont mind the extra folding size then it is better to get a 26", since it would be more comfortable to ride than a 20". Finding 20" parts is also a problem, even bmx and kids stuff isnt always compatible.. and like what has been mentioned 26" parts are a bit more readily available and cheaper.

You've already gotten a ton of advice, but I'll chime in, too. FIrst of all, if you are worried about being polite during rush hour (ie. you need a decent fold) yet still have performance, I think your best bet is a 20" folder. At first it will feel a little squirrely, but after a week, that feeling will change to incredibly nimble with quick acceleration. You'll realize that there really isn't much of a difference between a speed oriented 20 inch folder accept when your bombing down hills...700cc wheels role a little faster once you get over 20-25mph. If I were to get a fast, road style folder, I would go with either a Dahon Speed Pro TT or a Bike Friday Pocket Rocket pro. The Speed Pro TT has a gear range of 27"/119" which should take care of any climbing/descending you would have to do. Being a roadie, you'd want to outfit a Pocket Rocket with Shimano Capreo components at the rear and a standard 53/39 double crank. This would give you a gear range of 30"/116" with a 451 wheel. I have nothing against 700cc folders, but for a more petite fold without sacrificing much in the way of performance, I would definitely go with a 20" folder. You should check out the articles on the guy that races on his bike friday.

BTW, I actually started riding on folders and then bought a 'go fast' 700c road bike. with ultegra components. I was so excited to get on my sporty 700c bike only to find I picked up about an extra half mile an hour to one mile an hour of speed.

If your'e concerned about that hill in *general* that's one thing. But I wouldn't be concerned about tackling it with a 20" wheel versus a 700c wheel. They'll both do very well on even the steepest of grades. Why do you think BMX bikes have small wheels?
There are really only two relevant differences between 700c wheels and 20" wheels. Those differences are: (1) 20" wheels are quite a bit less forgiving on the road and (2) it's harder to make a 20" bike with a lot of trail -- that is, steering stability. You will initially find most 20" bikes to be "squirrelly": having a very live steering. This is something you get used to fast and completely forget about; and when you go back to 700c wheels they... well, they feel sluggish.

and there is always the option to buy two
one 26 and one 20 incher .......

lol
thor

I dont even feel comfortable going down this road on a regular bike so how am I going to feel on a 20" folder?

As I wrote earlier, the handling will probably be like earlier road bikes that had forks with a lot more rake and less trail. There are people that prefer low-trail bikes to high-trail bikes. They tend to be randoneurs and porters that like to front load bikes. So if you have only ridden modern high-trail bikes, you will find the handling different. But whether it is better or worse is subjective since you gain and lose something when changing the trail.


no problems with pinch flats on 20" wheels.

In a ceteris parabis sense, why would there be any problem? (real question as opposed to a rhetorical one)


Finding 20" parts is also a problem, even bmx and kids stuff isnt always compatible.. and like what has been mentioned 26" parts are a bit more readily available and cheaper.

When I last went to Albuquerque, it appeared that WalMart carried ERTO 406 tires and tubes. Finding skinny presta valve 20" tubes can be an issue. Long story short, if you are really worried about finding tubes and tires, stick with ERTO 406 20" tires and schraeder valve rims and I doubt you won't have any more problems than 700c stuff. And since we are talking about road tires -- relatively smooth tread -- the choices of 26" and 20" road tires is not disparate at all. In fact, there might be more 20" road tires. Although I suspect that at a LBS or WalMart, you would have a better chance of finding a road 26" tire than a 20".


If your'e concerned about that hill in *general* that's one thing. But I wouldn't be concerned about tackling it with a 20" wheel versus a 700c wheel. They'll both do very well on even the steepest of grades. Why do you think BMX bikes have small wheels?
There are really only two relevant differences between 700c wheels and 20" wheels. Those differences are: (1) 20" wheels are quite a bit less forgiving on the road and (2) it's harder to make a 20" bike with a lot of trail -- that is, steering stability.

20" wheels are, of course, wildly stronger and, in an all things equal context, have more rolling resistance. But in regards to the rolling resistance, few people would use the same width tire in 700c and 20". So it makes it a little hard to think about the difference in a practical sense.

There is a connection between trail and bicycle handling. But it isn't clear that more is better.

http://www.dclxvi.org/chunk/tech/trail/

Of course, with regards to comfort and going fast, most people tend to overinflate tires and suffer with narrow tires when the penalty for a wider tire at a lower pressure is virtually zero if not negative (http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/03/bikes-tech/technical-faq-of-tires-chains-and-tricks-of-the-trade_108936). (so a negative penalty is a plus) Here is a free article that discusses a race team experimenting with lower pressures (http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cervelo-testteam-get-testing-in-belgium-25190) and wider tires. Mind you, these guys are really light and carrying little to no loads like a commuter. Jan Heine at Bicycle Quarterly has been doing roll down tests with various tires to make generalizations regarding rolling resistance. I don't think that any of the research is available for free; but here is a Georgina Terry interview of Heine (http://www.terrybicycles.com/podcast/?kc=em20091120&utm_medium=email&utm_source=cpmaster&utm_campaign=em20091120)where he discusses it.

Anyway, my general point is that there are few practical differences between 20" and bigger diameter wheels and that they are rather minor (instead of claiming that there are no differences). Here is a popular article that has been circulating for years on the topic.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/page15.html

. . . and if you don't like the Airnimal Chameleon then there is of course the Ainimal Joey.
I have a Brompton, great small and quick fold and a nice ride and
the Airnimal Joey, great ride and a not so small fold . . .
So for longer and faster rides it's the Joey for me!
The Joey uses 507 rims (24 inch).

I think that the bike of BruceMetras looks great.

OP here, thanks for all the suggestions. A bike friend pointed out something. I was hoping to ride BART in the morning or evening and ride up the hill and DOWN the hill the other way. The idea would be that its raining in the morning but not in the afternoon or vice-versa. So he was asking me how I felt going down a particularly steep road around here, that stays wet and is in horrible shape. I dont even feel comfortable going down this road on a regular bike so how am I going to feel on a 20" folder?

When it comes to safety when going fast over rough terrain I'd be way more concerned about tire width than wheel diameter; And when it comes to using wide tires I'd much rather have them on a 20" rim than a 700c rim. Wide tires on 700c rims are heavy and sluggish, but since there's not much circumference on a 20" rim there's not much of a penalty for going wider.

Given what you describe, personally I'd use my folder even if I had no intention of taking the BART. For you I second the recommendation for a Bike Friday with the new quick folding stem (not the Tikit).

I have a paratrooper which I have made into a more road orientated bike.

All that remains of the original is the frame. I have used two donor bikes. An SE Lager provided the front wheel, bullhorns, front brake and cranks. A cheap Schwinn Prelude ( fairly new and unused from K-Mart) was the source for the back wheel, Deore gears, seat and front fork.

My local bike shop knocked out the cups from the Schwinn and put them in the Montague ( cost $10).

I travel to Japan two or three times a year. On Qantas flights charges are made for excess weight rather than oversized items. The reason I wanted a folder was to be able to make travel a little easier in Japan and storage at my Mother-in-laws house in Tokyo less cumbersome.

For use on the BART it may be a little bulky. You can't beat a lot of basic 20' wheel folders for folded size.

However, my set-up suits my needs. When I'm home it is a simple job to remove the front wheel and handlebars and replace them on the SE. The cranks take a little longer but with the right tools maybe 10 minutes and I have my single speed hipster credentials returned.

In the future I may change to a single speed paratrooper. Where I ride in Tokyo is so flat.

The frame is very sturdy and I have nothing but praise for it's design.
144102http://www.bikeforums.net/images/misc/pencil.png

I test rode some folding bikes for the first time last week. I rode a 6 speed Brompton, a Mezzo D9, and an older Birdy, model unknown to me (but it had a colossal suspension coil). The D9 was the cheapest, the best looking, and by far the best ride. I was really in disbelief over the ride quality. It felt no different to me than a good hybrid. The gearing wasn't high enough, as so many people say, but neither was it on the other two.

The D9 was the cheapest, the best looking, and by far the best ride. I was really in disbelief over the ride quality. It felt no different to me than a good hybrid.

And why should it be? Cause the wheels are small? Pffft!

There are obviously other reasons why a bike designed to fold into a small shape might have comfort issues. Anyway, I am saying I liked it. I'll probably order a D10 from the UK next month (saving a few hundred dollars), but I want to test ride a Bike Friday, a Dahon, and another Brompton first. The Brompton I rode had the standard seat "pillar," and the standard degree of suspension. It felt like a cross between riding a tricycle and a pogo stick. I was eager to get the hell off it. I've found another dealer who can offer a test ride with the telescoping seat pillar, but I think I'm stuck with the pogo aspect so far as test rides in my part of the country go.

I'll probably order a D10 from the UK next month (saving a few hundred dollars), but I want to test ride a Bike Friday, a Dahon, and another Brompton first.

Since you're testing 16 to 18" bikes I'm guessing by Bike Friday you mean a Tikit. Predictions everyone?

Mine: the Tikit will be more flexible than he likes in the front stem, but will ride better than the D9. Opinions on the Dahon will vary depending on the bike. Let's say it's a Mu...

Adding my two cents: BART policy states that the only requirement for commute hour boarding is a bike that folds. It doesn't matter if it's a Dahon Cadenza, or a Brompton. The size of the folded package does not matter. You're either going to have standing room for the bike, or you're not (the bike space would be the first choice, of course). If the train is crowded where you board, you're not going to get the bike on the train no matter how small it folds up.

So look for a bike that you like. Test ride it to make sure. One feature that you might want to consider is one that wouldn't let chain grease rub up on someone's clothes on a crowded train. That may be a right side fold, belt drive, or shaft drive. It would be really easy to ruin someone's day by rubbing grease over his/her work clothes, possibly your own.

If you ride a high performance road bike and don't want to compromise then you need a high performance folder and the high performance folder should be every bit as good as the 700c bike... I know a few folks who have gotten BF models and almost abandoned their previous full sized rides.

Performance costs money and people just don't take small wheeled bikes seriously enough... do try a Moulton if you get the chance as it is a mind blowing experience to ride one.