Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - OT: Clyde on the water

Any suggestions for someone who wants to be on the water this summer? I've seen people in canoes on Pine Creek in the gorge, folks on rafts at Harpers Ferry, and whitewater enthusiasts at Ohiopyle. It looks fun, and I've never done it before.

My concerns are being able to handle a boat. A kayak, I understand, takes a bit of skill, and is very cramped. I've been in a rowboat, four years ago, but nothing smaller.

I have three possible locations in mind:

Lehigh Gorge, 90 minutes from me.
Harpers Ferry, 3.5 hours away.
Pine Creek, 5 hours.

All three locations offer hiking and bicycling opportunities as well. Lehigh has an advantage in that I've never been there before.

I would say rent or borrow before buying a kayak or canoe. I fish out of Kayaks, but then again I am 5'8 250lbs. They just take a bit of getting used to. Prepare to get wet, because you most likely going to flip at least once but dont worry it happens to the best of us.

I have two very stable kayaks, have never flipped yet. It's a good sport and good upper body exercize, Unless you have a body of water close by, rent where you go. Rentals are typically pretty stable. There are some, Hobies for one, that you pedal. Kills two birds with one stone

Unless you KNOW that you're going to like whitewater, I'd suggest a rafting trip first. I imagine they offer them at the places you've mentioned. They are a lot of fun and will give you a good intro to that type of water.

I'm a big fan of sea kayaking, though I have to admit I spend much more time on a bike than in a boat...

If you've never been in a boat, the best way to get started is to sign-up for a guided tour or take a short (2-4 hr) class. Places that rent canoes and kayaks often run group tours and classes, or can point you to a private guide/instructor if you'd prefer that. Beginner-appropriate tours in my area usually start with 20-30 minutes of basic instruction, then have you paddle for 1-1.5hrs in calm water while observing wildlife, sights, etc. I did a couple of different 2-hour tours, decided I like paddling, then signed up for a day-long skills class.

My concerns are being able to handle a boat. A kayak, I understand, takes a bit of skill, and is very cramped. I've been in a rowboat, four years ago, but nothing smaller.

BTW, there are lots of different kinds of kayaks. All kayaks take a bit of skill to handle, though there are beginner-friendly models that are very stable. Closed-deck kayaks may feel cramped, especially for a Clyde, but there are sit-on-top kayaks which aren't restrictive at all. Sit-on-top kayaks are typically used for ocean kayaking or in calmer waters (e.g. lakes, slow-moving streams).

Whitewater kayak is very frustrating until it "CLICKS", then it is one of the best feelings when it starts to work.

If you really want to run some whitewater solo, spend a few scheckels and take a beginner instruction. Check out the local organizations in your area that may offer. It really is better with instruction.

When done with instruction and safety, it is a ball. I have been running whitewater for about 5 years and love it.

Also, it is just like biking. However much $$ you have, is how much you can spend:thumb:

Have fun.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/homeairdirect/JAY/IMGP0823.jpg

I am living proof that you can have and do it all.
http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/homeairdirect/JAY/IMGP0020.jpg

Big Piney in Arkansas
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Neil,

As others have said, it depends on what you want out of kayaking, where you want to boat, etc.

Pine Creek Gorge isn't really a whitewater destination, although my understanding is there are a couple Class II/II+ rapids in the middle of the gorge -- I think most people still take touring kayaks down that, not whitewater boats.

If you want to try some whitewater, the Lehigh is probably your best bet as it's close. BUT -- hopping in a hardshell whitewater boat without any training is a recipe for disaster! My suggestion is either go with a guided group and see if they have a sit on top (their guides use them) or even better an inflatable that you can use and go along with the rafters. You can also rent inflatable whitewater kayaks at the outfitters in Whitehaven -- last time I did I think it was about $80 for a tandem. I can't recommend doing that if you have no experience paddling though -- the Lehigh is not difficult, but moving water is deceptively powerful.

There is a huge paddlesport dealer - Jersey Paddler - not far from you in Jersey. They will have at least one demo / dealer day where you should be able to go and check out a ton of different kinds of boats all in one day. Get a feel for recreational vs whitewater vs touring/sea kayaks.

The added benefit of the Lehigh is the great cinder covered rail trail that runs 30 or more miles from Jim Thorpe up to Whitehaven!

There are a couple good paddling boards out there. My first recommendation for you would be NorthEast Paddlers message board (NPMB.com) -- probably the best choice to seek out what you're lookign for. Second is Boatertalk.com -- but this is mostly whitewater oriented.

Finally - if you want some great instruction, I highly recommend Zoar Outdoor in Charlemont, Mass. Friendly people, a beautiful river and setting, riding opportunities all around you. Take a weekend or even a weeklong class, once you've had a chance to dink around in a few boats and see if you really are interested.

BTW, I'm going to disagree with Jboyd and suggest that you do not run whitewater solo. People do it, people do it even on tough Class IV and V water. And of course it's your choice -- but I highly recommend against it, especially for a beginner. Besides not being safe, you're implicitly asking others on the river to come to your rescue if you have a problem. And while a lot of people will go out of their way to help, if they don't know you and the situation is too precarious - it may be AMFYOYO.

I think I may have misled some posters. I'm not buying any boat, nor am I trying to run rapids. Paddling a boat through the upper Pine Creek, or even the Schuylkill River, is all I'm looking for. My apologies for using the wrong terms.

I'd go with renting a canoe on a nice easy river from a rental place that caters to beginners. This is a good time, you can go it alone or take a friend.

Clyde on the water

And fire in the sky!



I hope you're happy Neil, I now have Deep Purple stuck in my head.

I have no advice on paddle boats, if you want to discuss bass trackers and fishing then that's another story!

And fire in the sky!



I hope you're happy Neil, I now have Deep Purple stuck in my head.

I have no advice on paddle boats, if you want to discuss bass trackers and fishing then that's another story!

Someone caught the reference!

I had to stop myself from buying a cheap fishing pole set at the local outlet store on Saturday. I reminded myself I'd have to clean anything I caught, and then cook it. That did it.

Someone caught the reference!

I had to stop myself from buying a cheap fishing pole set at the local outlet store on Saturday. I reminded myself I'd have to clean anything I caught, and then cook it. That did it.

Why? Use a barbless hook so it does less damage to the fish, catch and release!

Why? Use a barbless hook so it does less damage to the fish, catch and release!

What's the point?

What's the point?

To get wet, sun burnt, and bit by mosquitos without the guilt!

What's the point?

Thomas Edison used to go "fishing" with no hook at all. As I understand it, people would always pester Edison, but he discovered that people would leave him alone if he was fishing, giving him time to be alone with his thoughts.

Neil, I have a friend who owns a cheap kayak. He puts it into the Schuylkill at Betzwood and paddles upstream for an hour or two, then back down to the park.

I would rent a kayak. Solo kayaking is much much easier than solo canoe. Most recreational kayaks hold at LEAST 275lbs, some even more. I have a $450 "Perception" Rhythm 11 (made using the old Dagger Element 11.2 mold) from Dick's sporting goods. Its quick, tracking is OK in slow moving water, and it is rated to 275. I know your not looking to buy, but just giving an example. Most retal kayaks are likely to be Perception Swifty's or the sort, which are big boats, with a big cockpit, and are rated something around 350lbs.

Now, if you have somone else to go with, a canoe might be a better sounding option, unless you can rent a recreational Tandem kayak. I have a recreational tandem, and its more stable than any canoe I have been in, once your seated. However for ease of entry, a Canoe has better primary stability. I still just straddle my kayak and plop my butt down in the seat, then pull my legs inside. Simple. I have tried to slowly teach myself the one sided, paddle bracing entry. It works better for me to exit like this, its easier to straddle and plop haha :)

Paddling is fun, either way. I want to buy a kayak with a drop skeg next. I have no problems turning, so I dont need a rudder but I do want something that tracks better, when I need it to.

What is wrong with catch and release? I enjoy it! I do love eating fish, but as most of my kayaking is pre-work, I dont have time to clean and fillet the fish, so I just release them back to their underwater homes :) Ever catch a 14" smallmouth (maybe 1.5lbs) on an UltraLite rod and reel with 4lb test line? That is some excitement! Considering most smallmouth anglers use medium rods and 10-12lb test line... Heck, Bluegill on UL equipment is exciting, too!

Neil:

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/boa/1665781077.html for $350

Inflatable Kayak: $75
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/boa/1662026084.html

IMO, rafting is a different experience than canoeing or kayaking. With a guided raft trip you are along for the ride and are in a raft with other people (could be good, could be bad). With a canoe or kayak you are more maneuverable and it is a more intimate experience with the water. I have paddled all three rivers that you are considering & greatly prefer kayaking over rafting. My thoughts:

Before starting:
- I assume you can swim; if not, learn to swim & be comfortable in the water.
- Find a PFD and helmet that fit & are appropriate for your use (if your are rafting they will supply the gear)
- If you are uncomfortable around water then consider a water safety class (tought by canoe clubs or stores). This will teach you the basics on what to do if you fall out / flip over and the basic uses of rescue lines. They also offer have kayaking / paddling lessons.
- Note that the rivers are COLD right now due to spring run off. In the summer, the water is warmer but the water level is lower (possibly less difficult whitewater but more rocks to hit).
- Some rivers (like the yough) are controlled via dam releases and have a known schedule for when the river is runable.

Rafting:
- The Lehigh and Youghiogheny River (or 'Yough', pronounced 'yauck') both offer rafting trips. Both have spectacular scenery, especially in the fall. The Lehigh is definitely a less intense experience. The Yough has three main sections - the upper, middle, and lower. The lower yough is the most popular and tends to be crowded with rafts on summer weekends. The middle yough would be a good option for a beginning kayaker and the upper yough is for experienced rafters or expert kayakers.
- The Lehigh is more of a 'float' and you will get wet with a few splashes.
- Some trips are guided, some trips are not. I would suggest a guided trip to start and let the guide know it's your first time. On some rivers (like the lower yough) there will be a -few- guides but a LOT of rafts. Stick close to the guide and see if you can get in his/her boat. Other (more extreme) trips have mandatory guides in each raft. A good guide can not only steer the boat, he/she is an expert on the river and can point out all sorts of interesting features (flora/fauna/geology, etc.).
- You can hop in a 'ducky' (inflatible kayak) or a raft with some friends and meander down the middle yough with zero training or skills. If you are the kind of person to 'just do it' without any classes then this would be your best option.

Kayaking:
- Lessons are mandatory. Both the yough and Lehigh offer 1-day lessons + paddle trips.
- When you call, check to see about size of rental equipment. Many kayaks today are SMALL and cramped for larger people (although some boats will fit us). My boat is ancient, maybe jboyd is more up to date on the newer options & can provide suggestions.
- There is some learning curve associated with a kayak. You will likely start out on flat water and learn the basics (you are the only one guiding the boat so it's important to know how to steer!) :-)
- The Lehigh is fairly wide in certain areas, it would be a good swim if you flipped over. The middle yough (although further from you) is narrower & the region (Ohiopyle, etc.) has a TON of kayaking schools & rentals.

A fun pedal & paddle trip on the middle yough: http://www.ohiopyletradingpost.com/pedpadl.htm

I don't know the water in your neck of the woods, so this might be useless advice. But that said, look for sea kayak rentals on a lake or lake system? A sea kayak is an amazingly stable device; I've never capsized one without trying to. In the summer it can be fun to "crash" a kayak, which is a lot safer than crashing a bike, and a good excuse to practice self-rescue. It's pretty easy to do a wet entry, which is one reason I prefer kayaks to canoes ( another is that they're so much faster, letting you see more of the water, and get to shore more quickly if the weather turns nasty ), although it's something that needs some practice, so don't count on being able to get back in without having practiced it.

A Necky Looksha 17 ( or even 14 ) is a typical sea kayak in most ways, and you'd recognize it as one. The deck is covered, etc. The cockpit is fairly large and roomy, though. They aren't the fastest boats in the world because of this, but they're easy to get in and out of.

Neil,


BTW, I'm going to disagree with Jboyd and suggest that you do not run whitewater solo. People do it, people do it even on tough Class IV and V water. And of course it's your choice -- but I highly recommend against it, especially for a beginner. Besides not being safe, you're implicitly asking others on the river to come to your rescue if you have a problem. And while a lot of people will go out of their way to help, if they don't know you and the situation is too precarious - it may be AMFYOYO.

OK, I saw what I posted, and I did not mean SOLO as in by yourself, I meant SOLO as in you are the only one in the boat, and not a tandem canoe. My bad, but not with intent:(

Thomas Edison used to go "fishing" with no hook at all. As I understand it, people would always pester Edison, but he discovered that people would leave him alone if he was fishing, giving him time to be alone with his thoughts.

Wouldn't work -- I've had sunnys bite an empty bit of twine, and then hang on!

Find someplace to rent a Kayak or Canoe. Getting in and out of them is the trickiest part if you haven't done it before. Someone at the rental place will probably help you out to get you started. Paddle upstream until you get tired, then coast back. Some places I have been to on the Guadelupe River actually drive you upstream for either a half or full day trip. All you have to do is keep it between the banks and return the canoe or tube in one peice.

OK, I saw what I posted, and I did not mean SOLO as in by yourself, I meant SOLO as in you are the only one in the boat, and not a tandem canoe. My bad, but not with intent:(

Sorry - misunderstood your post JB.

Historian - paddling flatwater is a great way to get your feet wet (harhar).

Not sure exactly where you are -- but I think you're near Philly, right? So you aren't far from the Jersey Paddler. There must be some good shops in Philly too, that have demo days or free demos on the water. Go check them out, tell them what kind of paddling you want to do.

Personally I find paddling shops MUCH less intimidating that bike shops.

I highly recommend a sit-on top for your first try -- whether it's demo, or rental. You eliminate the hassle of getting IN the boat, you'll probably be more comfy, and if you fall off you just get back on. Some sit on tops are sluggish and slow -- try to rent/demo one that is a bit more performance oriented. In hot weather, a sit on top is great...but you are just a bit higher center of gravity than a sit-in boat.

There are very active paddling clubs in your area, both in PA and Jersey. Look up the Jersey or Philly chapter of the AMC and you'll find some good info on local paddling in your area.

I came across this while looking for a map to the Pawlings Road trail head and remembered this post. This sounds like it would be a good place to start. The Schuylkill River Sojourn.

http://www.schuylkillriver.org/sojourn.aspx

A fun pedal & paddle trip on the middle yough: http://www.ohiopyletradingpost.com/pedpadl.htm

This looks ideal. I'll add it to my plans when I'm in the Laurel Highlands when I'm there in late August.

Even if you don't want to do whitewater kayaking, you should at least try white water rafting. It's an awesome experience, and if you do it once of twice in the summer, you have to try a spring run once. If its too much for you, you never have to again, but a lot of people really like it.

Upstate New York has the Hudson, Indian, and Moose Rivers which all have some great trips.

Heres what it looks like in spring (this is in Africa but class 5 is class 5 for the most part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x89JGBGt564

It's not that bad during summer or fall though.

Neil,
I try to kayak once or twice a week, (weather permitting around PIT) and bike the other days. I go on a state park lake nearby, while you're getting the hang of it you don't need a lot of water. Try flat water first, then if you feel the need go on to whitewater.
Wes

class 5 is class 5 for the most part

I apologize for kind of correcting you on this, but with comments like that, and comparing the Zambezi to the Moose, Indian, and Hudson could scare soem people off from trying rafting or kayaking.

The Zambezi is huge, high volume water, with enormous holes and waves. There's little like it here in the U.S. Maybe Great Falls on the Potomoc at very high water. The Moose has several sections, the Bottom being the most "famous" and most difficult. But the Class V of the Moose is nothing like the Zambezi either. Much more pool/drop/pool in nature. The Lower Moose is a great first raft trip, but the Bottom would intimidate a lot of first timers. The Indian is really just class III/III+water, but pretty continuous, feeding into the Hudson which is fairly big but still not comparable to the Zambezi.

In the Eastern U.S., maybe the Gauley at high water would be the closest. The Ottawa has some huge holes and waves too.

Of course, if you're in PA, head west to the Yough for all variety of boating from fairly mild to technical class V.

I guess in the west there would be a couple rivers similar in nature to the Zambezi....big, fast, continuous water.

Kinda talked without full knowledge I guess there. Thanks for setting me straight billy, and I don't mind a bit. :)

I've never done the Moose, only the Indian and Hudson, and only once in spring. It was a blast though. I want to do it again this spring with my gf, but she doesn't like water that much. (I still can't even get her to swim underwater) so maybe i'll have to warm her up to this instead: http://www.crabapplewhitewater.com/massachusetts/deerfield_funyaking.shtml

I did it once with a large group and found it somewhat boring, but it would be a good start for her.


I apologize for kind of correcting you on this, but with comments like that, and comparing the Zambezi to the Moose, Indian, and Hudson could scare soem people off from trying rafting or kayaking.

The Zambezi is huge, high volume water, with enormous holes and waves. There's little like it here in the U.S. Maybe Great Falls on the Potomoc at very high water. The Moose has several sections, the Bottom being the most "famous" and most difficult. But the Class V of the Moose is nothing like the Zambezi either. Much more pool/drop/pool in nature. The Lower Moose is a great first raft trip, but the Bottom would intimidate a lot of first timers. The Indian is really just class III/III+water, but pretty continuous, feeding into the Hudson which is fairly big but still not comparable to the Zambezi.

In the Eastern U.S., maybe the Gauley at high water would be the closest. The Ottawa has some huge holes and waves too.

Of course, if you're in PA, head west to the Yough for all variety of boating from fairly mild to technical class V.

I guess in the west there would be a couple rivers similar in nature to the Zambezi....big, fast, continuous water.

Hey Niel,

We love the Pine Creek Gorge. We have friends who own a B&B whose property shares a property line with the Grand Canyon. http://www.pinaforerun.com/ Can you say (mountain) lions and bears...oh my! Easy access to hiking, biking and canoeing at Pine Creek Outfitters. We go up once a year for the Eastern Traditional Archery Shoot at Denton Hill (45 mins up the road). Way nice!

I am 5' 10 1/2" 310 pounds I have an Ocean kayaks Drifter sit on top and a perception America 11 sit in kayak. Few things are better for my soul :) than paddling along the wooded coves and hidden bays on a lake or floating down a creek casting for small mouth. I have been paddling instead of riding during this hot weather . the park here locally has an 85 acre lake. I get on the shady side of the lake far enough out to clear the trees in the water and paddle to the far end of the lake and back. it takes about 45 minutes of steady paddling you get exercise . Plus you see stuff like a couple hundred martin/swift type birds setting on limbs sticking out of the water, herons, mama and baby duck close enough to touch 40 pound carp . :) A lot of places have demo days so you can try boats
Roy

Is there a reason why you don't just go buy a inter tube from a tire shop, inflate it and float down the river? Thus, allowing the river to do the work for you:).

or this http://www.rivertrail.com/tubing-shenandoah-river.php

Just wondering

I paddled a C1 Merano a lot in my former life - Czech Republic. Lot of fun, lot of rapids and white water in general.

Is there a reason why you don't just go buy a inter tube from a tire shop, inflate it and float down the river? Thus, allowing the river to do the work for you:).

or this http://www.rivertrail.com/tubing-shenandoah-river.php

Just wondering

If I float down the river, how do I get back up it?

Is there a reason why you don't just go buy a inter tube from a tire shop, inflate it and float down the river? Thus, allowing the river to do the work for you:).

Just wondering

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-in-inner-tube-completes-first-lazy-transatlant,2440/

Is there a reason why you don't just go buy a inter tube from a tire shop, inflate it and float down the river? Thus, allowing the river to do the work for you:).

or this http://www.rivertrail.com/tubing-shenandoah-river.php

Just wondering

These folks offer inner-tubing with a shuttle on the upper Pine Creek - before it enters the Gorge:

http://www.canyoncruises.com/rates.htm

If I float down the river, how do I get back up it?


If there is a parking lot at both ends, I dunno, maybe use your bike:0.

I know that for the Clackamas river I would either leave a bike, or go with some one else that has a car. I have done it solo than just have to connect with a ride during the float for a ride back. Always a good conversation starter. I guess it was always part of the adventure. There are also usally shuttle drivers, but at that point you should just take a guided trip.
Hope you have fun

A kayak, I understand, takes a bit of skill, and is very cramped..

Canoes, especially in whitewater, take skill too.

I'd suggest trying out something on flat water first.


Unless you KNOW that you're going to like whitewater, I'd suggest a rafting trip first. I imagine they offer them at the places you've mentioned. They are a lot of fun and will give you a good intro to that type of water.
This.

If I float down the river, how do I get back up it?

Usually river running involves more then one person and ideally three or more (for safety). Because of this, most times a personal shuttle is set. but I have probably used the "Shuttle of Faith" 1/3 of my runs with great success. I park at the put-in and go. When I get to the take-out, I thumb or beg a ride and it has yet to fail me. Because most folks who are paddling are like minded, it is rare that anyone is suspect of a person who is wet and sporting a PFD.
The easy answer though is to arrange a shuttle with a local livery.

On the subject of Whitewater: It is a little like skydiving. It is a wonderful experience until something goes wrong. It is only rocks and water (and a lack of o2) but be careful.

+1 to professorbob advice to take part in a rafting trip in some class 3-4 with a guide. Great fun and you get the crap scared out of you and it is relatively safe. You get a real rush of adventure the first time. :thumb:

Usually river running involves more then one person and ideally three or more (for safety). Because of this, most times a personal shuttle is set. but I have probably used the "Shuttle of Faith" 1/3 of my runs with great success. I park at the put-in and go. When I get to the take-out, I thumb or beg a ride and it has yet to fail me. Because most folks who are paddling are like minded, it is rare that anyone is suspect of a person who is wet and sporting a PFD.
The easy answer though is to arrange a shuttle with a local livery.

On the subject of Whitewater: It is a little like skydiving. It is a wonderful experience until something goes wrong. It is only rocks and water (and a lack of o2) but be careful.

+1 to professorbob advice to take part in a rafting trip in some class 3-4 with a guide. Great fun and you get the crap scared out of you and it is relatively safe. You get a real rush of adventure the first time. :thumb:

I think I might stick with the innertube idea for the upper Pine Creek and Allegheny Rivers.

Can I buy an innertube anywhere, or are the 'special' ones made for tubing much better than what I'd get from an auto or truck supply? I guess I should also get a PDF as well.

BTW, since I'm planning on using free but primitive campsites in PA state forests most of the trip, innertubing will be the closest I get to a shower most days. :-)