Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - Need value of 52cm NIB Richard Sachs

I need to establish the value of a 52cm NIB Richard Sachs. Early 80's.
This was a freind of mine wifes Richard Sachs frame that never got built up.
Headtube decal is peeling of. Have replacement .A few very small paint chips.
Let me know your estimate of worth. email <cnighbor1@comcast> for more photos
Thanks
Charles

$500

Not french and new ones selling for $4500 Therefore above $500
Thanks for reply
Charles

If you know what it's worth then why the *** did you ask?

Jeez, now know I why you haven't had any responses.

Not french and new ones selling for $4500 Therefore above $500
Thanks for reply
Charles

Wrong and wrong and wrong:

a. New ones do not sell. He stopped taking orders from new customers about a year ago
b. New ones were selling for $4000
c. Comparing the price of a frame that is brand new and made with 2010 material with that of a frame that was made 30 years ago (and had 126mm rear spacing), which is listed as "NIB" but apparently has some paint chips, does not make sense.

Based on the picture, this is a Columbus frame of unknown tubing from a custom builder (which means that it was built to someone else's dimensions). As that, it would worth less than the equivalent high end production frames from known manufacturers (think of your favorite Italian manufacturer) in similar condition. I'd say that $500 is very generous...

Nah both replys off base has to price. You can't buy a hand built lugged steel frame by a know USA frame builder for under $1500 new. Yes not current built Richard sachs but still built by him. If not worth more that $500 none of the USA built frames since 1900 worth $500.
Charles

"1,400 -1,800 is your range, IMO. Try her on the auction site with a reasonable reserve if there are no takers here or across the hall." (http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71914&page=1&pp=15&highlight=sachs)

A search of the Serotta forum also shows you've recently posted another Sachs for sale as well: http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70142&highlight=sachs

Not sure if this thread is an experiment for you, or it's a sincere attempt to get a different perspective. However, I can say I think the Serotta forum has more high rollers and many more people there are knowledgeable about custom frames. I think the strength of BF's C&V forum is production bikes, 1970's - 1990's.

Assuming a 1980s bike never built up would be similar in value to a late model high end frame is ridiculous. But if you can get $1000 or $1500 for it, great!

If it is NIB, what is it doing with a headset, seat post bolt and DT shifters? You need to remove those quick if you are trying to convince someone it has never been built up. And don't leave any traces of those parts having been installed at one point. What do the drop outs look like up close? Any wear marks from skewers/axles? Ditto any cable stops....

$500 is high given unknown tubing material in my market.

If it is NIB, what is it doing with a headset, seat post bolt and DT shifters?

More importantly, if it's NIB...

...where's the box?

What's with the crustiness around the D-rings, anyway?

-Kurt

Charles- I'm surprised to find you in here. I most often see your signature on the CR list......
I'm [redacted] sure [redacted] most BF C&V'ers even know what a Richard Sachs is. But you wouldn't get a reasonable reply at all.

That said, anything north of $1000 is where I'd start. The frame is in decent condition but not 'new in box'. nicks, rust on the DT shifters a scratched head tube decal, etc. It's shop worn condition at worst, and knocked around a garage, hanging on a hook for years. But really, the 'valuation' is what someone is willing to pay. One person said 500 bucks, another said 1000-1200 in New condition, another said 4000.

I say you are getting close to a consensus, but theres a lot of hot air being blown for the sake of blowing.

What size is it? ST and TT measurements? It looks mall- 700c wheels or 650c wheels?

I always wanted a Richard Sachs......

Tom Martin

I'm not sure if most BF C&V'ers even know what a Richard Sachs is, you wouldn't get a reasonable reply at all.

That's it, I'm getting Toshi leather stich-on leather bar wrap from Ben's Cycle. You can keep your Elkhide.

Elitist.

-Kurt

Elitist? You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.
You give one guy hell for asking about a valuation on a valuation subforum. Now you are giving me a hard time because I backed up a 3 posters? and have the balls to call me an elitist? Whatever.

Bens is a good outfit. They are one our customers. Enjoy the Toshi leather. It's a bit softer leather, but good quality regardless.

and kurt- I'm heading to Lawn guyland next weekend. If you need assistance with your durkopp rescue, let me know.

I'm not sure if most BF C&V'ers even know what a Richard Sachs is, you wouldn't get a reasonable reply at all.



Yep, that's me for sure. But I do know what NIB means, and this one ain't it.

bill- agreed- NIB it aint.

I'm not sure if most BF C&V'ers even know what a Richard Sachs is, you wouldn't get a reasonable reply at all.


Tom Martin

I just cancelled my order.

There might be a few jugheads that are aware of Richard Sachs.

I'm one of them.

Although, the Sachs' bikes I see in the Twin Cities are his cyclocross racing model.

Both I've seen are red and white and gorgeous.:)

If you know what it's worth then why the *** did you ask?


+1,

How much is my Greg Diamond worth?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Diamond/P1160612.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Diamond/Diamond_0009.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Diamond/Diamond_0001.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Diamond/Diamond_0013.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Diamond/Diamond_0029.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Diamond/Diamond_0041.jpg

I'm not sure if most BF C&V'ers even know what a Richard Sachs is, you wouldn't get a reasonable reply at all.

You might be surprised to find out that some C&Vers might actually even know who Richard Sachs is...



That said, anything north of $1000 is where I'd start.

I guess that is pretty fair coming from someone working for a company that sells bike frames for $750 without describing exactly what the tubing is or how much a frame weighs...

I concur, if one thinks that a "generic double butted CroMo" V-O Rando is worth $750, one should start North of $1000 for this also unknown material (but I suspect that it probably is better than DB 4130 and you at least know where it was made). But that's a big IF


theres a lot of hot air being blown for the sake of blowing.

At least it's not of the Grand Cru type...

Anyone else wanna pile on? would it make yall feel better if I redacted that bit out?

Lets keep it to the topic of a richard sachs and not a historical bashing of every last thing that has ever been uttered by myself.

Speaking of which, what tubing does richard sachs use? Peggo-richey? Wonder what he's hiding behind?

Speaking of which, what tubing does richard sachs use? Peggo-richey? Wonder what he's hiding behind?

That particular bike has a generic Columbus sticker. I assume that it is not SLX (the SLX tubesets came with SLX stickers), so it could be anything from SL to Cromor to Aelle.

The other thing that drops the value of this frame is that Richard Sacks has always made "built to measure" frames. Which means that this particular frame was built to a particular person's measurements (and needs - notice the relatively long wheelbase and the generous fork rake on this frame.) If you are not that particular person, you'd need to make sure that this fits you and your needs.

Anyone else wanna pile on? would it make yall feel better if I redacted that bit out?

Lets keep it to the topic of a richard sachs and not a historical bashing of every last thing that has ever been uttered by myself.

Speaking of which, what tubing does richard sachs use? Peggo-richey? Wonder what he's hiding behind?

I don't have any insults for you, I like and buy from Velo-Orange. That said, you have to see why it was a little insulting? Not to me necessarily but probably others.

I don't have any insults for you, I like and buy from Velo-Orange. That said, you have to see why it was a little insulting? Not to me necessarily but probably others.

Matt, FYI he says he'll be near Port Jeff soon.

-Kurt

Matt, FYI he says he'll be near Port Jeff soon.

-Kurt

Kurt, I actually had a very generous offer from a forum member. I haven't heard back from the seller after the initial contact though so it doesn't look good.

Not sure why all this animosity. I'm with the VO fellow regarding his comments on this bicycle.

Fact is I am surprised by the degree of rudeness in this thread, I don't think you can expect a non-snide reply when you give a snide valuation.. I consider a snide valuation as one without justification.

I seem to recall and early sachs going for $475 used frameset only on ebay a couple year back with a BIN and many lamented that is was in fact and absolute steal. I would think this bike would be worth anywhere from $800-2000. I think that is a fair valuation and of course we all know vintage sachs' aren't popping up on ebay enough to actually give a precise value to it. This is exactly the type of item that must be sold on ebay if the seller wishes to get the true top market value, otherwise they must guess and post a fixed price and allow offers to come after.

:popcorn Guy walks into a bar looking for a circle jerk. Bar patrons don't play along. Hilarity ensues.

Disputing the merits of the early replies is one thing; better if the OP had left it to others. However, the OP clearly has an agenda.

cyclotoine's point is interesting... without a consistent track record of sales, there is no real money backing up the valuations.

:popcorn Guy walks into a bar looking for a circle jerk. Bar patrons don't play along. Hilarity ensues.

Disputing the merits of the early replies is one thing; better if the OP had left it to others. However, the OP clearly has an agenda.

cyclotoine's point is interesting... without a consistent track record of sales, there is no real money backing up the valuations.

Yeah, it doesn't add up. He's been on internet bike boards and lists for years, and he's got another Sachs for sale currently. He helps compile finds for the iBob Yahoo group. If anyone knows what it's worth, he does.

This thread is either fishing for a buyer, or it's some kind of troll.

If it's neither, I apologize, but based on his responses in this thread, it doesn't appear he was undecided on the value in the first place.

This is exactly the type of item that must be sold on ebay if the seller wishes to get the true top market value, otherwise they must guess and post a fixed price and allow offers to come after.

+1

Put it on eBay with no reserve, then the value will be clear. Public auctions are a great device for determining value.

I think the fork is bent! Just kidding. But really guys, calm down and go ride your bikes.

You might be surprised to find out that some C&Vers might actually even know who Richard Sachs is...

You'd be surprised at how many CR members are BF members who are Serotta forum members. I joined Serotta Forum because it supposedly has a 'higher end' clientle only to find the same guys posting over there as here. You'll find the same with CR as well.


Public auctions are a great device for determining value.

Any Richard Sachs has a minimum inherent value and thats where my initial $500 valuation came from. A new, not riden Sachs in my opinion should start around $500 and go from there dpending on a multitude of factors the OP hasnt provided us with. IMHO the OP's best option is throw it on Ebay as a fixed price 'Buy Now' listing with a price he'd like to get and go from there. If it doesnt sell no harm, no foul.

You'd be surprised at how many CR members are BF members who are Serotta forum members. I joined Serotta Forum because it supposedly has a 'higher end' clientle only to find the same guys posting over there as here. You'll find the same with CR as well.

I apologize for my inartful post Jim. I wasn't referring to you, and I'm aware there are a cadre of long time and expert C&V enthusiasts, including yourself, who are cognizant of nearly all cycling forums and lists. I do believe, however, that a greater percentage of CR list and Serotta forum members would know Richard Sachs. However, there are probably more 'uninitiated' on BF (including myself), but BF also probably has a far larger membership than the other boards. I also think each concentrates on a slightly different niche than the other, though there is obviously overlap. BF C&V is value conscious, which sometimes rubs people the wrong way.

Unfortunately, I have also seen BF slammed elsewhere on the internet, and I feel the tenor of the original post hints at intentional trolling.

I apologize for my inartful post Jim. I wasn't referring to you, and I'm aware there are a cadre of long time and expert C&V enthusiasts, including yourself, who are cognizant of nearly all cycling forums and lists. I do believe, however, that a greater percentage of CR list and Serotta forum members would know Richard Sachs. However, there are probably more 'uninitiated' on BF (including myself), but BF also probably has a far larger membership than the other boards. I also think each concentrates on a slightly different niche than the other, though there is obviously overlap. BF C&V is value conscious, which sometimes rubs people the wrong way.

Unfortunately, I have also seen BF slammed elsewhere on the internet, and I feel the tenor of the original post hints at intentional trolling.

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding......I know you weren't referring to me but were making a blanket statement. I do agree with you, CR and the Serotta forum have a greater percentage of members that know who Richard Sachs is and the overall quality of his bikes. But, BF's by far has the greatest number of C&V members and the broadest knowledge base of any of the forums.

And yes, we are very value conscious and sometimes just flat out cheap. We always want top dollar but never want to pay it. There's always 2 valuations, what we think it should sell for and what we think someone should pay.

I think the frame and fork is worth between $750 and $1000. True Sachs bikes are in high demand but Richard is the first to admit that a frame this old is not built with the same craftsmanship and experience as a new one. Also, all Sachs bikes are custom frames built to owner specs. Third, this is not NIB. Lightly used or in stoarge a long time sure, but not NIB. So, you comparing the bike to a new Sachs is an apples to oranges comparison. Let it go. So, you have a nice handmade frame from a master builder in very good shape. $750 to $1000. Next.

Guy

+1 Ultimately, to find out the market value of this bike, it needs to go to ebay. The OP believes it has pretty substantial value, compared to others on this list. Let the ebay world decide. While I doubt the OP will get what he thinks he will get out of the bike, I could be wrong. I have seen some crazy sales on ebay. Heck, a mid 1970s Schwinn Super Sport with a bent fork sold last year on ebay for $1300!!


In my experience, ebay values are very erratic. You will see a $250 bike go for $600, and a $600 bike go for $150. It really depends on the quality of the pictures, the ad, its title, the sellers feedback and more. There are no guarantees that you will get what you want price wise on ebay. But higher end bikes around here on Craigs List do not sell at full market. C/L can be a great place to buy a high end bike, but a pretty lousy place to sell one. So if you want full market, its either ebay or connect with someone on the internet via a list like this one.

This is an appraisal forum, so if you want feedback on what some of us think a bike is worth, this is the place. Several on this list have bought and sold a lot of bikes in the last couple of years. Their feedback as a minimum can provide a reality check on values and a starting point. After that, it is up to you.

I am selling my sachs and checking on price for freinds new Richard Sachs Frames.
Not sure about strength of BF's C&V Forum. Ist reply was not worth much. Others have been Ok

It is the same craftsmanship has the same builder built it. One could assume two things about a builder frames over a long period, One he got better with time or two two he got older and quality is less. would be very hard to judge. NIB It was removed from box to take photos.

A great reply about what I feel a new used richard sachs frame should go for. I checked with a frame builder and it about 40 hours to build a frame. At $50 and hour which is low that equals $2000 for any well built steel lugged frame. Paul Taylor of NV will build a frame for $1300. but he has another job and works out of his garage with low overhead. Sachs works out of a shop in his backyard. So the cost of many frames is low if they had to allow for true costs of a shop, etc.
Charles

tom contact me direct <cnighbor1@comcast.net> and I send photos and data
Charles

A great reply about what I feel a new used richard sachs frame should go for. I checked with a frame builder and it about 40 hours to build a frame. At $50 and hour which is low that equals $2000 for any well built steel lugged frame. Paul Taylor of NV will build a frame for $1300. but he has another job and works out of his garage with low overhead. Sachs works out of a shop in his backyard. So the cost of many frames is low if they had to allow for true costs of a shop, etc.
Charles

Charles, I understand your logic but that simply isnt how it works for older framesets regardless of them being new, used or NOS. Sachs' initial sale of the frameset took into account all expenses therefore its simply a matter of supply and demand.

+10 Doesn't matter what replacement cost might be. This was a custom made frame, sized perfectly to fit original owner. If you happen to be that exact proportion, great. Anyone looking at it versus a brand new frame made to fit them, will go with the new frame. And its all about supply and demand. What is the demand for a used top of the line frame, versus what is the supply. I own a lot of stuff where the replacement cost far exceeds the market value. Its just the way it is. But rather than argue it, the real determinant is the market itself. ebay or similar could prove many of us way wrong, including me.

The prestige of the Sachs brand may be enough to get some lively (high price) ebay action on it. Its really hard to predict on ebay. Some stuff just catches on with a couple of determined bidders, and up it goes. Other items get ignored, for no obvious reason.

Glad to see that everyone has cooled their heals a bit in this thread. Let's keep with that trend please.

As far as value, if I rode that size and wanted a vintage Sachs, I would personally be willing to spend upwards of 1200-1800 on the frame a seen. However I have little doubt that someone would be willing to spend twice that or more for the same frame. I met Mr. Sachs at NAHBS a few years back and got to see a couple of examples of his earlier work (similar to this one) and his more recent work while in Portland. You don't make the name for yourself that Mr. Sachs has by doing anything but top notch work for the day, even 25 years ago. As far as the generic columbus decal, it's likely because either he often mixed tubesets to get the right mix for that frame, or that is what Columbus sent him, or that's what he had on hand when the frame was finished. I'd be surprised if it wasn't SP or SL or a mix of the two.

It is the same craftsmanship has the same builder built it.

Logical fallacy. Sorry.

PS: there is a sub forum for selling bikes. Your thinly veiled for sale ad, is well, a little too thinly veiled.

cheerio!

Seems like I have seen some older Sachs go for over $1500. If this really is unused, should probably go higher. My understanding is that a current RS goes for north of $4k. But of course, you can't order one right now. He built some cheaper stock frames, the fact that it was inna box suggest to me that this might be one of them. If I pay someone to paint one of my high-end frames I end up with about $900 into it not including my time. The established guys that charge a couple hundred more than that for a complete frame are annoying me a little.


Speaking of which, what tubing does richard sachs use? Peggo-richey? Wonder what he's hiding behind?
Curious, do you not know that is what he calls Columbus Spirit for Lugs?

Heck, I've never been on CR or the Serotta forums (and I own a Serotta), and I know who (and what a) Richard Sachs is. I'm a thinkin' of not using velo orange anymore. We just ain't that ignorant over here in the hills. Or maybe you're a VO competitor atryin' to sabotage their business, I dunno.

The value of this Sachs is not what a new Sachs would be. First, you have to find a buyer whom the frame will fit. Second, customs are somewhat undervalued in the used market, and despite claims to NOS, this fits that market. I've bought USA hand made customs for less than $500, and seen them (and not bought them) for less as well. I passed on a Zinn recently for $450 (frame only) for example.

OP, you have a value set in your head. You need to reach the broadest possible audience, so stick the frame on the ebay, and put a BIN at the price you want, or put a reserve on it. To be honest, I doubt you'll sell it at the price you have in your head. If you do, it might take a few re-listings. Even at Jim's original estimate, it might not go. You're dealing with a small market, and need to find a buyer who wants-- really wants-- the darn thing. On the bay, you'll find the value and the broadest possible audience. But if you absolutely don't have sell it, list it at what you think is a fair price, and if you don't sell it, just keep it.

"Heck, I've never been on CR or the Serotta forums (and I own a Serotta), and I know who (and what a) Richard Sachs is. I'm a thinkin' of not using velo orange anymore. We just ain't that ignorant over here in the hills. Or maybe you're a VO competitor atryin' to sabotage their business, I dunno."

If a posting on a forum on a subject that is not even remotely connected to you in a direct and personal way is going to make you 'not use VO anymore' maybe it's for the best. One strike yer out is quite intolerant, ATMO.....


And no- I did not know Mr Sachs used columbus tubing for a bit, then re badged it as pegorichie. But the tubing spec really doesn't matter- thats not the reason you buy a Richard Sachs.

And no- I did not know Mr Sachs used columbus tubing for a bit, then re badged it as pegorichie. But the tubing spec really doesn't matter- thats not the reason you buy a Richard Sachs.

Then what is? The custom sizing? uh oh D:

In all fairness, his own site claimed that you buy one because:

...technology alone
is a poor substitute for experience.

Which taking this to heart, the latest frame will always be built with more experience than the previous one. Which is to say this older frame has nothing on a new one. :innocent:

And no- I did not know Mr Sachs used columbus tubing for a bit, then re badged it as pegorichie. But the tubing spec really doesn't matter- thats not the reason you buy a Richard Sachs.

I suspect that there are some perspective buyers who do not care about what the tubing is and just looking for a marquee/maker/brand/etc. On the other hand, you'd probably have to agree that the tubing used would affect the value of a bike. For example, you'd think that one would have to pay less for a Gara or Aelle bike than an SL or SLX bike from the same maker, no?

Then what is?

Because he's the only framebuilder with a video autobiography.

http://austinbikeblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/sachsdvd.jpg

I had a chance at a Witcomb recently. I very quickly passed.

-Kurt

$500

This is an interesting frame. I read this thread before I logged on and saw the images. I would classify the frame as not yet ridden.

This frame shows what I see as the Richard channeling Masi and Mario period. Masi "copy" lugs, without the rings at the headset races, milled dropouts very much like what Mario was doing a few years before. Nice color. I think Mr. Sachs was not yet of his own independent voice, interesting as he had been in business for year by this point. Small size limits market.

At least $1,000. Beyond that? In this market? Roll the ebay dice.