Tandem Cycling - New and starting OOP

We just bought our first tandem, and with my wife and I both being avid cyclists we ended up with a supremo. We got the bike last night and are starting off OOP, as that seems it will fit our riding best. HOWEVER, getting started was, needless to say, nearly a train wreck. I've read Bill's advice, but can't quite seem to get the bike to start without some serious weaving. We're gonna keep at it, but any help you guys can provide (::cough:: zonatandem & TG::cough::) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
-Jason and Jenna

If you're using Bill McCready's "Proper Method" and still weaving there are three things that come immediately to mind. No; make that four:

1. Make sure you're in a fairly low gear that's easy to pedal (e.g., 42 x 23 or 53/4 x 27)
2. Once you've got:

(a) your stoker mounted and clipped-in, and
(b) you've got yourself poised to launch with your preferred foot sitting on your crank in the forward position,
(c) you'll want to coordinate your launch by calling out, "Ready... on three: one, two, three" (or words to that affect) at which point,
(d) your stoker should begin applying moderate power to her pedals as you
(e) apply power to your pedal and while pushing off with your down leg and mounting your saddle.
3. At least for now, do not immediately attempt to clip in your down foot as you would on your single bike... let the tandem gain some momentum before you break the cadence and shift your attention to clip in.
4. Recognize that, like all things, your confidence and stability during starts and stops will improve with practice and familiarity.

The key is looking at the entire start and stop movements as a continuous flow of motion where both you and your stoker work to minimize any excess body movements that could unsettle the tandem's steering.

For example, if your stoker is nervous and trying to look around you, then she's unintentionally steering the tandem from the backseat which requires counter-steering inputs from you and in combination you end up with a wobbly path. Again, to minimize this during starts and stops you'll both need to become more relaxed with your weight centered on the tandem during your launches and landings and most of this should come to you with practice.

The teams that always struggle simply never master the finesse needed to have that smooth and relaxed start... or, don't pay attention to things like gear selection and technique.

Finally, and don't take this the wrong way, starting off in-phase would probably have been a bit easier at least for the first few rides, if only because it puts you and your stoker in-sync with regard to the natural side-to-side bike sway that comes during pedalling. Out-of-Phase simply adds a little complexity to the learning process. Once you have the starts and stops mastered -- at least in terms of timing and stability -- you cold then shift over to OOP, at which point you would only be sorting out the differences associated with being on different power strokes instead of dealing with everything else needed to master your start/stop techniques.

I appreciate the help. I think part of the problem was me letting her power the start, which caused me to not quite have the balance right.

On a second note, We'd like to thank you, TG, on behalf of lurkers like us everywhere, for all the useful information you've put up here and on your site over the years. Knowingly (and willingly) or not, you really helped us figure out what tandem to get, how to go about the serach process, and how to deal with (successfully lie to myself) the sticker shock. :)

You will find your own refinements, but our refinements to this are:



(b) you've got yourself poised to launch with your preferred foot sitting on your crank in the forward position,

Meaning about 5-10 degrees forward of the highest position


(c) you'll want to coordinate your launch by calling out, "Ready... on three: one, two, three" (or words to that affect) at which point,
(d) your stoker should begin applying moderate power to her pedals as you
(e) apply power to your pedal and while pushing off with your down leg and mounting your saddle.[/INDENT]

We found that one or two full strokes before sitting down actually works better. And if you aren't trying to get yourself onto the saddle while your only support is your hands and the one foot that is rapidly falling, you are less likely to get your crotch caught on the nose of the saddle.

Oh, and it takes a little practice to learn what gear you want to be in. Not too hard, obviously, but not so easy that the foot that starts on the pedal reaches the bottom of the stroke too quickly.

You will find your own refinements, but our refinements to this are:


Meaning about 5-10 degrees forward of the highest position

.

For us is more like 20-40 degrees

We found that one or two full strokes before sitting down actually works better.

Adding the caveat that you wear mountain bike shoes. If you're wearing slick-soled road shoes it's never a "good" idea to stand without being clipped in .. we all do it occasionally and, (for the most part), get away with it. But it still isn't a good idea.

Back in July of 2005, Tom Hudgins and his wife Deb had their daughter Carly shoot a video of them demonstrating "The Proper Method". They first wrote about this on Tandem@Hobbes where you'll find a plethora of feedback from readers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm4Hf4izxtw

It did a very good job of capturing the basic process, less any customizations. For example, I mount road bikes track bike style by swinging my right leg up and over the handlebars and I typically start and stop with my right leg in the down position and left foot on pedal. I always immediately move to the saddle with the first downstroke of my left foot.

Frankly, once you have the basic concept down everyting else tends to be a matter of personal preference or learned habits. Also being off-road tandem riders, we do all kinds of improvising when we have to start and stop on technical terrain which has actually served us quite well when faced with unsual on-road situations, e.g., off-camber roads, etc.

Adding the caveat that you wear mountain bike shoes.
Right. I forgot that some folks ride road shoes on a tandem. I have a strong preference for something less slippery when I'm going to be holding the bike - and stoker - up at stops.

Thanks for all the help. We figured out what I (not we, stoker's never wrong) was doing wrong, and we got in a great 30+ mile first ride. These things are a blast

Thanks for all the help. We figured out what I (not we, stoker's never wrong) was doing wrong, and we got in a great 30+ mile first ride. These things are a blast

Excellent! And, thanks for the kind words: I'm humbled.

Only additional advise from us:
Relax! Don't have a death grip on the bars . . . Enjoy the ride TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

So, with that knocked out, I'll hijack my own thread and ask another question: I actually got my hands on a flight deck computer before the tandem came (really cheap online) not realizing that the new ultegra (6900?) does not support flight deck anymore(shimano told our dealer it wasn't just a question of doing a new harness, that there simply wasn't an option).

1) can anyone confirm that? it seems very odd, and sometimes customer support is more clueless than seems reasonable
2) can you guys recommend a good sub $100 computer? We're using cateye VECTRA wireless ones on the singles, but I REALLY want average speed and trip time, which they lack.

I've got a flight deck that came on the machine when I bought it. I can't get it to turn on for anything. New batteries, inspected contacts, etc. but no go. I'm going back to a Cateye Astral or Strada Cadence, but they're both wired computers, which I prefer. They're both around $50 bucks or so.

Hmmm, thinking about it... would they have to be mounted on the stoker stem to accommodate the wired cadence? I'm gonna have to look at that.

We used to use TPM but we are in-phase riders so we switched to Captain/Stoker one leg down and clip in at the same time once rolling. For OOP I would suggest that this method should be renamed "The Only Method" as I can't image how any other would work.

So, with that knocked out, I'll hijack my own thread and ask another question: I actually got my hands on a flight deck computer before the tandem came (really cheap online) not realizing that the new ultegra (6900?) does not support flight deck anymore(shimano told our dealer it wasn't just a question of doing a new harness, that there simply wasn't an option).

1) can anyone confirm that? it seems very odd, and sometimes customer support is more clueless than seems reasonable
2) can you guys recommend a good sub $100 computer? We're using cateye VECTRA wireless ones on the singles, but I REALLY want average speed and trip time, which they lack.

Difference with new 6900 is that the smaller size levers (marginally) and the new internal cable routing makes less room for the harness which replaced a portion of the older levers.

As far as sub $100 cyclocomputers go, sorry can't help you as we use Garmin Edges on singles and tandem.

We used to use TPM but we are in-phase riders so we switched to Captain/Stoker one leg down and clip in at the same time once rolling. For OOP I would suggest that this method should be renamed "The Only Method" as I can't image how any other would work.
Are you saying "TPM should be renamed TOM" in the case of OOP, or just the reverse? I'm not totally clear on the antecedent for "this method". My first reading would be that you're saying both with one leg down (for lack of an official name) should be the only method for OOP, but we find TPM works just fine OOP.

Unless you rig your own extension wiring or put in an outrigger to put the sensor for the captain's crank arm within range of the magnet, the answer is yes. You get the choice of

a) cadence for the stoker only, or
b) cadence for both with a long range wireless transmit/receive (a few exist, but I don't have it)
c) a non-stock solution that you build yourself.

Are you saying "TPM should be renamed TOM" in the case of OOP, or just the reverse? I'm not totally clear on the antecedent for "this method". My first reading would be that you're saying both with one leg down (for lack of an official name) should be the only method for OOP, but we find TPM works just fine OOP.

There is only one subject in my comment, that is 'TPM.' This method in sentence two still refers to the same subject. I really thought that was clear and don't want a grammar lesson :lol:.
What I am saying is that for OOP TPM should be renamed TOM as I can't see an easy way to not start with the Stoker completely clipped in if you use an OOP crank setup.

Hmmm, thinking about it... would they have to be mounted on the stoker stem to accommodate the wired cadence? I'm gonna have to look at that.

We have the Cateye Astral computers on booth our tandems. We have long tandem length cables that Cateye made at one time. They are no longer made. However the last I knew Mel at Tandems East had some in stock.

There is only one subject in my comment, that is 'TPM.' This method in sentence two still refers to the same subject. I really thought that was clear and don't want a grammar lesson :lol:.
What I am saying is that for OOP TPM should be renamed TOM as I can't see an easy way to not start with the Stoker completely clipped in if you use an OOP crank setup.
Look, I wasn't trying to give a grammar lesson. But since you put it that way, the usual assumption is that the antecedent is the most recent noun or noun phrase. And in this case you had just described the alternative to "TPM" - although you didn't specifically use the word "method", it sure looks like a method. So I was truly left with reading it as either TPM is impossible for out-of-phase or assuming you didn't really mean what it looked like you were saying. Given that I was unsure, I didn't want to leave someone less familiar with tandeming to get the wrong impression. Now I suppose someone can chime in that they use the "one foot down each" method, and by somehow having the cranks in just the right position make it work with OOP.:)

thread officially hijacked.

Look, I wasn't trying to give a grammar lesson. But since you put it that way, the usual assumption is that the antecedent is the most recent noun or noun phrase. And in this case you had just described the alternative to "TPM" - although you didn't specifically use the word "method", it sure looks like a method. So I was truly left with reading it as either TPM is impossible for out-of-phase or assuming you didn't really mean what it looked like you were saying. Given that I was unsure, I didn't want to leave someone less familiar with tandeming to get the wrong impression. Now I suppose someone can chime in that they use the "one foot down each" method, and by somehow having the cranks in just the right position make it work with OOP.:)

Thank you.

I still can't see how you could start out steady if you are OOP and both have a foot down, maybe incredible balance!

thread officially hijacked.

My fault.

Just our experience, when we started riding tandems we used 'The Proper Method' and that was OK. On 50+ mile rides, near the end when we were both tired it became harder to steady the tandem with Bittersweet clipped in. That was when we decided that one foot down was 'The Real Proper Method' and haven't looked back. Please note that we ride in-phase, I am having trouble picturing how we would do one foot down if we rode out-of-phase.

we've got a method that seems to work (not perfect yet) and it's pretty much exactly TPM. only deviance (I think) is she gives me the pedal at the bottom of the stroke to let me clip in, then quickly rotates it up to starting position (about 2 o'clock) and we go as soon as it's there. For a couple with exactly 2 days and 90 miles of tandem experience, I'm pretty happy with it.

I MISS OUT-OF-PHASE!!! We are IP now, Stoker's preference, bit when we were OOP we did the same take off method as with our IP, stoker clipped in and responsible for the initial take off.

we've got a method that seems to work (not perfect yet) and it's pretty much exactly TPM. only deviance...

An alteration of the TPM with your stoker may be somewhat unconventional, but hardly a deviance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deviance_%28sociology%29).;)

An alteration of the TPM with your stoker may be somewhat unconventional, but hardly a deviance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deviance_%28sociology%29).;)

Damn, because I loathe social norms. "Deviance in a sociological context describes actions or behaviours that violate cultural norms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_%28sociology%29)"

We had one hell of a ride today, with some SERIOUS speed on flats and downhills. I HAVE to fix the shifting before I kill myself or the stoker, and we really need to work on hill climbing, which is proving to be a real bear without my usual out-of-seat mashing on the steepest bits.

This is why we bought a daVinci ...just sayin' and we love it!

We're a couple with roughly 7000 miles of tandem experience, nearly all of it on century and longer rides. What I find works well is TPM with the stoker presenting the captain with the pedal at about 4 or 5 o'clock (i.e. just forward of the bottom of the stroke--if you're starting the stroke at 12 and pedaling through 1, 2, ...) and then sitting there with neutral (zero) pedal pressure. It is up to me as captain to clip in, raise the pedal to the beginning of the power stroke at about 1 or 2 o'clock, and start the take-off. The advantage to clipping in at the bottom of the stroke is that the less you lift your leg, the easier it is to balance. The furthest we've ridden is a 600Km brevet (40 hour time limit) and when you've ridden 350 miles in the last 36 hours with only four hours of sleep, balance becomes more of an issue, particularly if you are on sloped and off-camber recently-chip-sealed gravel. FWIW, I can't imagine trying to coordinate having us both have a foot on the ground and simultaneously start off while hopping simultaneously onto the saddles. On our last ride, we had to stop on a 12 percent grade to grab a helmet mirror that fell off. Starting back up again on an uphill grade like that, with my stoker ready to apply full power as soon as we start, it is hard enough to time just me giving a power stroke, getting into the saddle, getting clipped in, and applying power. To try to do that with a stoker that is starting with a foot on the ground seems like it be likely to result in an unhappy ending.

This is why we bought a daVinci ...just sayin' and we love it!

What does the "This" refer to?

I've always wondered how you coordinate standing on a DaVinci. It seems like it is continuously and randomly OOP. On nearly every bike ride, we end up on pitches that are steep enough (15 to 18 percent) that even in our lowest gear (24/34) we both have to stand, or we'll be walking that hill. In other words, it won't work with just me standing and her sitting -- I'm not powerful enough alone to muscle that grade. So it's both or neither. On the really steep stuff, it can be pretty hard to coordinate standing simultaneously, as the little changes in balance can swing the steering around. I can't imagine how that would work if my stoker not only isn't in phase with me, but she's randomly OOP so that she has to time standing to wherever her pedal stroke is going to come to the top. Meanwhile, I have to be set to balance the various torques as she stands, without knowing when she's going to stand. So ... how does this work with the DaVinci?

Thanks,

Nick

we've got a method that seems to work (not perfect yet) and it's pretty much exactly TPM. only deviance (I think) is she gives me the pedal at the bottom of the stroke to let me clip in, then quickly rotates it up to starting position (about 2 o'clock) and we go as soon as it's there. For a couple with exactly 2 days and 90 miles of tandem experience, I'm pretty happy with it.
Yes, I also (usually) clip in with the pedal in something close to 6 o'clock (perhaps a touch forward) and then we rotate up to the launch position. I don't know how much variation there is on that nuance. Most "instructions" don't mention it. But it works for us. It may depend on the pedals whether it's easier to clip in in the down position.

90 miles is pretty good for the first two days.

I've always wondered how you coordinate standing on a DaVinci. It seems like it is continuously and randomly OOP.

Nick

First, recall that the cadence, when neither rider is coasting, is the same front and back. So whatever phase you're in, you pretty much stay there until someone consciously chooses to change it. In other words, if you find you need in-phase to stand, you can switch to in-phase at the time by the stoker coasting/back-pedalling for a moment, and then if you otherwise prefer 90 degrees out-of-phase, you can switch back at any time, by the stoker coasting/back-pedalling for exactly one quarter of a rotation of the captain's pedals. Nothing random about it.

Outside of issues like weight and drive train complexity, the only real downside is that if you're a fan of TPM, the stoker can't put the captain's pedals in place, like on a tandem without independent coasting.

The furthest we've ridden is a 600Km brevet (40 hour time limit) and when you've ridden 350 miles in the last 36 hours with only four hours of sleep, balance becomes more of an issue, particularly if you are on sloped and off-camber recently-chip-sealed gravel. FWIW, I can't imagine trying to coordinate having us both have a foot on the ground and simultaneously start off while hopping simultaneously onto the saddles. On our last ride, we had to stop on a 12 percent grade to grab a helmet mirror that fell off. Starting back up again on an uphill grade like that, with my stoker ready to apply full power as soon as we start, it is hard enough to time just me giving a power stroke, getting into the saddle, getting clipped in, and applying power. To try to do that with a stoker that is starting with a foot on the ground seems like it be likely to result in an unhappy ending.

As you yourself said, "you can't imagine". My stoker and I had to stop before in the middle of a climb up a causeway bridge ... approximately the same incline if not a little steeper, and for the same reason, (a dropped item). We restarted fine.

Keep in mind that the stoker, seated, cannot deliver "full power". So when you use the "stoker up" method, you really only get the initial forward momentum of .... say one and a third to one and a half. But with BOTH of you jumping up onto the pedal on it's down stroke, you get more initial momentum, which gives you more time to do whatever else is necessary.

And there is no need, incidentally, for anyone to sit down immediately unless you're wearing road shoes, and even then you can carefully cheat! But what my stoker and I did in this instance is both continued standing until we got the bike going well, then I sat, got clipped in and stood up again. She immediately followed suit.

This is the method we use on any uphill start, no matter the length or pitch, except that on easier grades when we sit, we remain seated. I sit first because I can apply more raw power seated than she can.

We've never done a 600k before, (although it's definitely in our future! Congratulations on yours! Tough stuff!), but we have done an urban 200k in the most densely populated area of Florida, Tampa Bay. My best guess is that there were over 250 traffic controls in that 128 miles, and on a tandem that is MURDER! I recall one 3 mile section crossing south Tampa where there was a stop sign EVERY block!

Fatigue became an issue here even though the ride was only 128 miles, and balance MIGHT have been an issue right along with that except that we use the "double down" method, so no problem. As for me "coordinating" us both getting back on the bike, I say "Ready? Go." That's it.

My stoker knows her job just as I know mine. If she is having trouble getting clipped in, once we're going she'll call "pedals", and I let her control them until she gets clipped in. If she got her knickers in a knot when she sat down, she stands and sits again. No problem.

My stoker vastly prefers the double down method over the stoker up method, primarily because we live in an urban area. Our average, local ride that shows 1:45 or 1:47 in ride time generally takes us 2:00 to 2:05 in real time to complete, and that's without any breaks. That means for 15 or 20 minutes of the ride we're sitting at stop lights or stop signs and she has to sit frozen in place.

She'd much rather put a foot down herself, re-adjust her jersey or shorts, get a drink, and generally take the same break from the saddle that I get when waiting on that light that only changes semi-annually.

Finally, (once again!), if anyone wants to know more about the advantages and disadvantages of either method, here's a link (http://billnmaggi.tandemrides.com/debunk/) to an article I wrote about it on my blog.

Thanks, WebsterMan, I didn't realize the cadence was the same front and back, that makes it a little easier to understand. But it still seems like it's a little harder to coordinate standing with the DaVinci. As it is, I often don't know that I'm going to stand or sit until the instant before I do it. And my stoker is very good at sensing that instant. On a typical ride, we'll have a couple of "standing mistakes" in every 125 miles or so. Usually it's either because I started to stand but then stopped (as I realized that the hill wasn't steep enough for the gear we were in or sometimes because my legs were just too blown to stand), or I started to sit but then realized I had to stand for another pedal stroke. So the captain always makes the mistake! Anyway, if she had to add to the complexity of getting the instantaneous signal to stand, having to also position the pedals, then it seems like it would not be likely to work out well. Many times we'd be out of sync unless she always habitually lined up in-phase after any momentary stoppage. And if I coasted for just an instant before standing (sometimes this is necessary to slow down enough for the gear you're in) then she'd have to sense that, too, and coast at just the right time to end up in phase again. So it seems like a lot of times, I'd stand, and then she'd have to wait at least half a revolution before standing, and on some hills that just wouldn't work out. Maybe we'd just get good at standing up no matter what phase we were in.

Thanks, Onegun. There's a nearby 200Km permanent that starts near Key Bridge in Washington DC and heads out into the Maryland countryside to Union Bridge (thus, it is called the Bridge to Bridge permanent). Once you get outside the burbs, it is a very pretty ride, but there is a long section through the burbs that we call the Thousand Points of Traffic Lights. Tedious!

Fortunately, as to "TPM" or double-down the appropriate saying is "Chacun a son gout" (to each their own). As with many things in life, what works for you works for you. And until God deigns to come down and impart hisher wisdom, anyone else's method is just what works for them. It could well be that TPM works for 95 percent of tandemers, in which case that's probably the best thing for someone like Bill McCready to espouse, but that still leaves 5 percent for whom it isn't the best thing. I see that's basically what you're saying in the first paragraph of your linked page!

Best regards,

Nick