mudpuppy
04-01-10, 04:55 PM
Doesn't sound like the police are investigating very seriously. :(
http://bit.ly/axzohf
http://bit.ly/axzohf
Advocacy & Safety - 10 yr. old killed by bus on Disney property.
Bikeforums.net is a forum about nothing but bikes. Our community can help you find information about hard-to-find and localized information like bicycle tours, specialties like where in your area to have your recumbent bike serviced, or what are the best bicycle tires and seats for the activities you use your bike for.ahsposo
04-01-10, 05:31 PM
Possibly because your link sux.
Copy and paste.
Copy and paste.
GraysonPeddie
04-01-10, 06:57 PM
I read about that in Orlando Sentinel. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-child-hit-bus-disney-20100401,0,6156951.story
Not to blame the boy riding the bike in the road, but the boy needs to be supervised by an adult.
Not to blame the boy riding the bike in the road, but the boy needs to be supervised by an adult.
Wake
04-01-10, 09:17 PM
"...crossed into the road and struck the side of the bus." is certainly different than just "killed by bus".
Too bad for the kid[s], though. Life is like that - sometimes you don't get a second chance.
Too bad for the kid[s], though. Life is like that - sometimes you don't get a second chance.
chambers
04-01-10, 10:09 PM
Doesn't sound like the police are investigating very seriously. :(
http://bit.ly/axzohf
What makes you think that the police are not investigating very seriously? The article provided the link to said "She said there was no evidence the bus driver was impaired or driving recklessly, and she did not expect criminal charges, though a more thorough investigation was still pending." The drug test that the driver was given will take time to get back. That is why the investigation is still pending. Other than interviewing the people on the bus and maybe any other drivers that may have seen the accident and the little girl on the other bike what else do you think they can do?
http://bit.ly/axzohf
What makes you think that the police are not investigating very seriously? The article provided the link to said "She said there was no evidence the bus driver was impaired or driving recklessly, and she did not expect criminal charges, though a more thorough investigation was still pending." The drug test that the driver was given will take time to get back. That is why the investigation is still pending. Other than interviewing the people on the bus and maybe any other drivers that may have seen the accident and the little girl on the other bike what else do you think they can do?
Chris516
04-01-10, 11:12 PM
Possibly because your link sux.
Copy and paste.
I didn't have to 'copy n paste'.
Copy and paste.
I didn't have to 'copy n paste'.
Speedwagon98
04-02-10, 12:16 AM
I find this rather funny:
The children, both of whom were wearing helmets, Montes said, were riding on a sidewalk, north of a paved pathway that leads to a pool and tennis courts at the resort. But the boy apparently crossed into the road and struck the side of the bus.
He was pulled under the vehicle and run over by the right rear tire, Montes said. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
How are helmets relevant, when you get pulled under the side of a bus and run over? I'm fairly certain that helmets are not meant to sustain several tons of bus, thus irrelevant to the fact that they got run over.
The children, both of whom were wearing helmets, Montes said, were riding on a sidewalk, north of a paved pathway that leads to a pool and tennis courts at the resort. But the boy apparently crossed into the road and struck the side of the bus.
He was pulled under the vehicle and run over by the right rear tire, Montes said. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
How are helmets relevant, when you get pulled under the side of a bus and run over? I'm fairly certain that helmets are not meant to sustain several tons of bus, thus irrelevant to the fact that they got run over.
sudo bike
04-02-10, 12:39 AM
Yeah, but it's always the first question asked. May as well get it out of the way....
CB HI
04-02-10, 02:21 AM
Cause of the death may significantly depend on the speed of the bus as it passed the cyclist. Yet there is not even the slightest mention of the bus speed.
Large tourist buses, just like 18 wheelers, can cause a large pressure wave in front with a vacuum in the middle. A close pass to a cyclist can push them away initially and as the cyclist compensates, the vacuum gets them and sucks them under the bus/18 wheeler.
Large tourist buses, just like 18 wheelers, can cause a large pressure wave in front with a vacuum in the middle. A close pass to a cyclist can push them away initially and as the cyclist compensates, the vacuum gets them and sucks them under the bus/18 wheeler.
I-Like-To-Bike
04-02-10, 05:50 AM
Cause of the death may significantly depend on the speed of the bus as it passed the cyclist. Yet there is not even the slightest mention of the bus speed.
Large tourist buses, just like 18 wheelers, can cause a large pressure wave in front with a vacuum in the middle. A close pass to a cyclist can push them away initially and as the cyclist compensates, the vacuum gets them and sucks them under the bus/18 wheeler.
Interesting theory, any evidence that any cyclist has ever been sucked under a bus or 18 wheeler by a vehicle induced "vacuum"? All the accidents I have heard of where cyclists are run over by the rear wheels of a large vehicle involved turning vehicles at relatively low speeds.
Large tourist buses, just like 18 wheelers, can cause a large pressure wave in front with a vacuum in the middle. A close pass to a cyclist can push them away initially and as the cyclist compensates, the vacuum gets them and sucks them under the bus/18 wheeler.
Interesting theory, any evidence that any cyclist has ever been sucked under a bus or 18 wheeler by a vehicle induced "vacuum"? All the accidents I have heard of where cyclists are run over by the rear wheels of a large vehicle involved turning vehicles at relatively low speeds.
sudo bike
04-02-10, 06:29 AM
You've never felt it before? It's not major, granted; but I could see it possibly putting a kid off-balance enough to crash.
Mos6502
04-02-10, 06:45 AM
Cause of the death may significantly depend on the speed of the bus as it passed the cyclist. Yet there is not even the slightest mention of the bus speed.
Large tourist buses, just like 18 wheelers, can cause a large pressure wave in front with a vacuum in the middle. A close pass to a cyclist can push them away initially and as the cyclist compensates, the vacuum gets them and sucks them under the bus/18 wheeler.
The bus would have had to of been going about 50mph or faster. Buses also generally lack the open space in the center to create a vacuum anywhere other than at the rear of the bus.
Large tourist buses, just like 18 wheelers, can cause a large pressure wave in front with a vacuum in the middle. A close pass to a cyclist can push them away initially and as the cyclist compensates, the vacuum gets them and sucks them under the bus/18 wheeler.
The bus would have had to of been going about 50mph or faster. Buses also generally lack the open space in the center to create a vacuum anywhere other than at the rear of the bus.
gcottay
04-02-10, 07:04 AM
. . .Not to blame the boy riding the bike in the road, but the boy needs to be supervised by an adult.
I could well have been the boy's parent. For me, nine or ten can be old enough to ride unsupervised in something like a campground environment or quiet neighborhood.just so the child has received instruction and been observed riding properly.
Is nine or ten really too young?
I could well have been the boy's parent. For me, nine or ten can be old enough to ride unsupervised in something like a campground environment or quiet neighborhood.just so the child has received instruction and been observed riding properly.
Is nine or ten really too young?
Bekologist
04-02-10, 08:07 AM
RIP, young rider. The operator of a large commercial vehicle has the duty to avoid situations that potentially endanger the public and especially children in proximity to the vehicle.
in some countries in Europe, wouldn't this driver be at fault regardless of if the kid 'somehow rode into the street'. bus needs to take extreme care around vulnerable road users. if it means going 7 miles an hour until it is clear there is no potential encrochment on a vulnerable road user , so be it.
This is irrespective of the particulars of this case, but a general consideration of vehicles mixing in public space with vulnerable road users.
those who think 10 is too young to ride a bike without ones parents needs to seriously reconsider what it is to be a 10 year old with a bicycle. i suspect more than a few of us used to pedal across town, delivering papers, etc. I personally remember riding 50 milers, riding on state highways unsupervised, going fishing, riding to pick up craft supplies at the native craft store, and general mucking about with relative impunity, and possessed the ability to safely operate a bicycle on public roads.
This young man may have made a fatal mistake and piloted himself into the side of a bus; i doubt this is the sole factor. When it comes down to how one operates a bus in proximity of children in a campground environment, some element of negligence or disregard for public safety likely occured at the hands of the bus driver.
(When i was in maui recently we had one shuttle bus driver that was TEXTING while driving!)
RIP, young rider.
in some countries in Europe, wouldn't this driver be at fault regardless of if the kid 'somehow rode into the street'. bus needs to take extreme care around vulnerable road users. if it means going 7 miles an hour until it is clear there is no potential encrochment on a vulnerable road user , so be it.
This is irrespective of the particulars of this case, but a general consideration of vehicles mixing in public space with vulnerable road users.
those who think 10 is too young to ride a bike without ones parents needs to seriously reconsider what it is to be a 10 year old with a bicycle. i suspect more than a few of us used to pedal across town, delivering papers, etc. I personally remember riding 50 milers, riding on state highways unsupervised, going fishing, riding to pick up craft supplies at the native craft store, and general mucking about with relative impunity, and possessed the ability to safely operate a bicycle on public roads.
This young man may have made a fatal mistake and piloted himself into the side of a bus; i doubt this is the sole factor. When it comes down to how one operates a bus in proximity of children in a campground environment, some element of negligence or disregard for public safety likely occured at the hands of the bus driver.
(When i was in maui recently we had one shuttle bus driver that was TEXTING while driving!)
RIP, young rider.
closetbiker
04-02-10, 09:19 AM
Yeah, but it's always the first question asked. May as well get it out of the way....
it's a natural point the media raise after been battered for years with the sales pitch/propaganda that bicycle helmets prevent 85% of head injuries and then a cyclist dies from a head injury.
(it doesn't seem to matter that the 85% never really happened, what injuries were prevented were superficial, and that being hit by motor vehicles are what kills people on bikes and that 85% figure didn't include a single collision with a motor vehicle)
it's a natural point the media raise after been battered for years with the sales pitch/propaganda that bicycle helmets prevent 85% of head injuries and then a cyclist dies from a head injury.
(it doesn't seem to matter that the 85% never really happened, what injuries were prevented were superficial, and that being hit by motor vehicles are what kills people on bikes and that 85% figure didn't include a single collision with a motor vehicle)
I-Like-To-Bike
04-02-10, 01:07 PM
You've never felt it before? It's not major, granted; but I could see it possibly putting a kid off-balance enough to crash.
Anything is theoretically possible; given that assumption, large vehicles "sucking" bicycling victims under the rear wheels may be a problem. I doubt anyone can cite a real life example other than sensing the presence of a large vehicle as it passes.
Anything is theoretically possible; given that assumption, large vehicles "sucking" bicycling victims under the rear wheels may be a problem. I doubt anyone can cite a real life example other than sensing the presence of a large vehicle as it passes.
chambers
04-02-10, 01:54 PM
RIP, young rider. The operator of a large commercial vehicle has the duty to avoid situations that potentially endanger the public and especially children in proximity to the vehicle.
in some countries in Europe, wouldn't this driver be at fault regardless of if the kid 'somehow rode into the street'. bus needs to take extreme care around vulnerable road users. if it means going 7 miles an hour until it is clear there is no potential encrochment on a vulnerable road user , so be it.
This is irrespective of the particulars of this case, but a general consideration of vehicles mixing in public space with vulnerable road users.
those who think 10 is too young to ride a bike without ones parents needs to seriously reconsider what it is to be a 10 year old with a bicycle. i suspect more than a few of us used to pedal across town, delivering papers, etc. I personally remember riding 50 milers, riding on state highways unsupervised, going fishing, riding to pick up craft supplies at the native craft store, and general mucking about with relative impunity, and possessed the ability to safely operate a bicycle on public roads.
This young man may have made a fatal mistake and piloted himself into the side of a bus; i doubt this is the sole factor. When it comes down to how one operates a bus in proximity of children in a campground environment, some element of negligence or disregard for public safety likely occured at the hands of the bus driver.
(When i was in maui recently we had one shuttle bus driver that was TEXTING while driving!)
RIP, young rider.
Did you actually read the story that the link leads to? The boy was riding on the sidewalk and then turned into the bus as it passed. How in this case could the bus driver be considered negligence or disregarding public safety. Are you saying that all drivers should slow down to "7 miles an hour until it is clear" when ever they see a biker or walker on the sidewalk? The kid was not in the roadway he was on the sidewalk as the bus approached.
in some countries in Europe, wouldn't this driver be at fault regardless of if the kid 'somehow rode into the street'. bus needs to take extreme care around vulnerable road users. if it means going 7 miles an hour until it is clear there is no potential encrochment on a vulnerable road user , so be it.
This is irrespective of the particulars of this case, but a general consideration of vehicles mixing in public space with vulnerable road users.
those who think 10 is too young to ride a bike without ones parents needs to seriously reconsider what it is to be a 10 year old with a bicycle. i suspect more than a few of us used to pedal across town, delivering papers, etc. I personally remember riding 50 milers, riding on state highways unsupervised, going fishing, riding to pick up craft supplies at the native craft store, and general mucking about with relative impunity, and possessed the ability to safely operate a bicycle on public roads.
This young man may have made a fatal mistake and piloted himself into the side of a bus; i doubt this is the sole factor. When it comes down to how one operates a bus in proximity of children in a campground environment, some element of negligence or disregard for public safety likely occured at the hands of the bus driver.
(When i was in maui recently we had one shuttle bus driver that was TEXTING while driving!)
RIP, young rider.
Did you actually read the story that the link leads to? The boy was riding on the sidewalk and then turned into the bus as it passed. How in this case could the bus driver be considered negligence or disregarding public safety. Are you saying that all drivers should slow down to "7 miles an hour until it is clear" when ever they see a biker or walker on the sidewalk? The kid was not in the roadway he was on the sidewalk as the bus approached.
CB HI
04-02-10, 03:21 PM
Interesting theory, any evidence that any cyclist has ever been sucked under a bus or 18 wheeler by a vehicle induced "vacuum"? All the accidents I have heard of where cyclists are run over by the rear wheels of a large vehicle involved turning vehicles at relatively low speeds.The article is likely too old to still be accessible. Occurred in Florida, cyclist was on the shoulder, 18 wheeler driver passed too close and sucked the cyclist under killing him. Truck driver gave up his CDL over his grief and began teaching classes given by the state police to CDL applicants on “CDL’s duties towards cyclist safety”.
I am pretty sure you read the thread that was either on Chainguard or BTI list.
I am pretty sure you read the thread that was either on Chainguard or BTI list.
njkayaker
04-02-10, 03:41 PM
in some countries in Europe, wouldn't this driver be at fault regardless of if the kid 'somehow rode into the street'.
If the cyclist (kid, adult, elephant, whatever) actually road into the bus from the sidewalk, the driver would not be at fault, even in "some countries in Europe". As far as I know, no country requires drivers to be psychic.
those who think 10 is too young to ride a bike
Nice strawman!
There are some adults who are not skilled/careful enough to ride in traffic. No one is suggesting a proscription against all 10 year olds from riding bicycles in traffic.
This young man may have made a fatal mistake and piloted himself into the side of a bus; i doubt this is the sole factor. When it comes down to how one operates a bus in proximity of children in a campground environment, some element of negligence or disregard for public safety likely occured at the hands of the bus driver.
Well, the rest of us aren't psychic and are "likely" disinclined to speculate so recklessly!
===============
Did you actually read the story that the link leads to?
Silly! Why let yourself be inconvenienced by facts and reading stuff? That sounds like work!
If the cyclist (kid, adult, elephant, whatever) actually road into the bus from the sidewalk, the driver would not be at fault, even in "some countries in Europe". As far as I know, no country requires drivers to be psychic.
those who think 10 is too young to ride a bike
Nice strawman!
There are some adults who are not skilled/careful enough to ride in traffic. No one is suggesting a proscription against all 10 year olds from riding bicycles in traffic.
This young man may have made a fatal mistake and piloted himself into the side of a bus; i doubt this is the sole factor. When it comes down to how one operates a bus in proximity of children in a campground environment, some element of negligence or disregard for public safety likely occured at the hands of the bus driver.
Well, the rest of us aren't psychic and are "likely" disinclined to speculate so recklessly!
===============
Did you actually read the story that the link leads to?
Silly! Why let yourself be inconvenienced by facts and reading stuff? That sounds like work!
njkayaker
04-02-10, 03:54 PM
The article is likely too old to still be accessible. Occurred in Florida, cyclist was on the shoulder, 18 wheeler driver passed too close and sucked the cyclist under killing him. Truck driver gave up his CDL over his grief and began teaching classes given by the state police to CDL applicants on “CDL’s duties towards cyclist safety”.
I am pretty sure you read the thread that was either on Chainguard or BTI list.
How fast was he going?
I am pretty sure you read the thread that was either on Chainguard or BTI list.
How fast was he going?
dobber
04-02-10, 05:10 PM
Doesn't sound like the police are investigating very seriously.
Because it's a pretty open and shut case. The poor kid ran into the side of the bus. Or is it your contention that Mickey doesn't like cyclists.
Because it's a pretty open and shut case. The poor kid ran into the side of the bus. Or is it your contention that Mickey doesn't like cyclists.
CB HI
04-02-10, 06:04 PM
How fast was he going?I do not remember for sure, but I think it was around 50 mph.
I had felt a pretty good push from a tour bus going 35 mph. Knowing the hazard, I let the push move me away and then simply countered the the suck. Not a big deal for experienced riders, but for a 10 year old?
CDL drivers should be trained in this and give greater clearance to cyclist, especially kids. It has been an issue that I forced on our city bus administrators.
I had felt a pretty good push from a tour bus going 35 mph. Knowing the hazard, I let the push move me away and then simply countered the the suck. Not a big deal for experienced riders, but for a 10 year old?
CDL drivers should be trained in this and give greater clearance to cyclist, especially kids. It has been an issue that I forced on our city bus administrators.
I-Like-To-Bike
04-02-10, 06:36 PM
I am pretty sure you read the thread that was either on Chainguard or BTI list.
Perhaps you remember better what I allegedly read in the distant past than I do. Anyhow, if the only "known" event is to an incident so long ago that no reference to it can be found, I will assume that the "hazard" of cyclists being sucked under the wheels of passing vehicles is too insignificant for any rational person to worry about.
Perhaps you remember better what I allegedly read in the distant past than I do. Anyhow, if the only "known" event is to an incident so long ago that no reference to it can be found, I will assume that the "hazard" of cyclists being sucked under the wheels of passing vehicles is too insignificant for any rational person to worry about.
Bekologist
04-02-10, 07:12 PM
CDL drivers should be trained in this and give greater clearance to cyclist, especially kids.
particularly in a campground.
and what 10 year old is going to ride a bike directly into the side of a bus? There's bound to be contributing factors in this collision. one account mentioned the grass where the collision happened was worn from the tracks of vehicles moving off the main roadway.
However, I'm not going to engage in a inflammatory, heated discussion about the validity of my opinions and degrade this thread about the tragic death of a child cyclist- people need to show some respect and take a look at their personal headspace, maturity and wellness,
if an internet thread about a dead child cyclist incites such a drive to angrily argue vacuous semantics.
RIP young rider.
particularly in a campground.
and what 10 year old is going to ride a bike directly into the side of a bus? There's bound to be contributing factors in this collision. one account mentioned the grass where the collision happened was worn from the tracks of vehicles moving off the main roadway.
However, I'm not going to engage in a inflammatory, heated discussion about the validity of my opinions and degrade this thread about the tragic death of a child cyclist- people need to show some respect and take a look at their personal headspace, maturity and wellness,
if an internet thread about a dead child cyclist incites such a drive to angrily argue vacuous semantics.
RIP young rider.
chambers
04-02-10, 07:46 PM
The pictures and maps I have seen do not show any possible left turn anywhere near the accident. The police say that the physical evidence and witness statements indicate that the bike rider was on the sidewalk as the bus approached and started to pass the kids, the rider then turned off the sidewalk and hit the bus.
ahsposo
04-02-10, 07:47 PM
I didn't have to 'copy n paste'.
Well I tried it again and I get an MSNBC front page with about 1,000 articles to choose from. Maybe it's my browser. If so my apologies but I can't get anything meaningful from the link.
Well I tried it again and I get an MSNBC front page with about 1,000 articles to choose from. Maybe it's my browser. If so my apologies but I can't get anything meaningful from the link.
Mos6502
04-02-10, 08:16 PM
and what 10 year old is going to ride a bike directly into the side of a bus?
Kids do some pretty stupid things. Just FYI.
I would however wonder if perhaps non working brakes on the bike, or something of that nature contributed.
Kids do some pretty stupid things. Just FYI.
I would however wonder if perhaps non working brakes on the bike, or something of that nature contributed.
Kurt Erlenbach
04-02-10, 09:19 PM
The parents of the kid are ticked, and are blaming Disney (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-disney-bus-crash-20100402,0,5954708.story). They say the driver was at fault, not the child.
GraysonPeddie
04-03-10, 01:26 AM
My gosh! This is very heart-wrecking.
sudo bike
04-03-10, 06:45 AM
it's a natural point the media raise after been battered for years with the sales pitch/propaganda that bicycle helmets prevent 85% of head injuries and then a cyclist dies from a head injury.
Well that, and like it or not, right or wrong, most of the people they are reporting the news to want to know; because if he wasn't wearing a helmet, he was automatically in the wrong (in their eyes). Them's the breaks.
Anything is theoretically possible; given that assumption, large vehicles "sucking" bicycling victims under the rear wheels may be a problem. I doubt anyone can cite a real life example other than sensing the presence of a large vehicle as it passes.
I don't know about it being powerful enough to suck someone under the vehicle...
But, for example, when I was biking home from riding with my wife to work the other day, a bus passed fairly close by (not overly close). Now, I've been biking for long enough that the "wake" didn't really phase me... but I certainly felt a strong one, and I could see a newbie, especially a kid, having trouble keeping a strong handle on the bike in that wake. (also, the bus was not going that fast... the speed limit there is 35mph).
Regarding finding examples - I really doubt anyone keeps stats on this, and I'm not about to sift through thousands of articles to find examples. I'm just saying I could see it happening, and it wouldn't surprise me TOO much if it did.
Well that, and like it or not, right or wrong, most of the people they are reporting the news to want to know; because if he wasn't wearing a helmet, he was automatically in the wrong (in their eyes). Them's the breaks.
Anything is theoretically possible; given that assumption, large vehicles "sucking" bicycling victims under the rear wheels may be a problem. I doubt anyone can cite a real life example other than sensing the presence of a large vehicle as it passes.
I don't know about it being powerful enough to suck someone under the vehicle...
But, for example, when I was biking home from riding with my wife to work the other day, a bus passed fairly close by (not overly close). Now, I've been biking for long enough that the "wake" didn't really phase me... but I certainly felt a strong one, and I could see a newbie, especially a kid, having trouble keeping a strong handle on the bike in that wake. (also, the bus was not going that fast... the speed limit there is 35mph).
Regarding finding examples - I really doubt anyone keeps stats on this, and I'm not about to sift through thousands of articles to find examples. I'm just saying I could see it happening, and it wouldn't surprise me TOO much if it did.
Laserman
04-03-10, 07:49 AM
I don't know about it being powerful enough to suck someone under the vehicle...
But, for example, when I was biking home from riding with my wife to work the other day, a bus passed fairly close by (not overly close). Now, I've been biking for long enough that the "wake" didn't really phase me... but I certainly felt a strong one, and I could see a newbie, especially a kid, having trouble keeping a strong handle on the bike in that wake. (also, the bus was not going that fast... the speed limit there is 35mph).
Regarding finding examples - I really doubt anyone keeps stats on this, and I'm not about to sift through thousands of articles to find examples. I'm just saying I could see it happening, and it wouldn't surprise me TOO much if it did.
This is Bernoulli's principle at work. The pressure wave builds up at the front of the bus and then flows along the sides to fill the low pressure area behind the bus. To do so it must flow at a higher speed than the bus is travelling. How much higher depends on the geometry of the vehicle. A flat nosed bus builds up a much higher pressure wave than one more aerodynamically shaped. So speed is not the only factor that determines the pressure differential. One would think that the speed limits in a recreational area would be quite low and tightly controlled but I did not see any mention of that in the articles.
A tragedy no matter how you apportion the blame.
But, for example, when I was biking home from riding with my wife to work the other day, a bus passed fairly close by (not overly close). Now, I've been biking for long enough that the "wake" didn't really phase me... but I certainly felt a strong one, and I could see a newbie, especially a kid, having trouble keeping a strong handle on the bike in that wake. (also, the bus was not going that fast... the speed limit there is 35mph).
Regarding finding examples - I really doubt anyone keeps stats on this, and I'm not about to sift through thousands of articles to find examples. I'm just saying I could see it happening, and it wouldn't surprise me TOO much if it did.
This is Bernoulli's principle at work. The pressure wave builds up at the front of the bus and then flows along the sides to fill the low pressure area behind the bus. To do so it must flow at a higher speed than the bus is travelling. How much higher depends on the geometry of the vehicle. A flat nosed bus builds up a much higher pressure wave than one more aerodynamically shaped. So speed is not the only factor that determines the pressure differential. One would think that the speed limits in a recreational area would be quite low and tightly controlled but I did not see any mention of that in the articles.
A tragedy no matter how you apportion the blame.
I-Like-To-Bike
04-03-10, 08:27 AM
I don't know about it being powerful enough to suck someone under the vehicle...
But...
Regarding finding examples - I really doubt anyone keeps stats on this, and I'm not about to sift through thousands of articles to find examples. I'm just saying I could see it happening, and it wouldn't surprise me TOO much if it did.
But nothing! The issue is: does a passing motor vehicle really exert a force powerful enough to suck a bicyclist under its wheels and do such "sucking" bicycle accidents occur; not does it create a passing breeze, or what BFers guess "might" have happened or could happen, or what incredible scenario would or wouldn't surprise you.
But...
Regarding finding examples - I really doubt anyone keeps stats on this, and I'm not about to sift through thousands of articles to find examples. I'm just saying I could see it happening, and it wouldn't surprise me TOO much if it did.
But nothing! The issue is: does a passing motor vehicle really exert a force powerful enough to suck a bicyclist under its wheels and do such "sucking" bicycle accidents occur; not does it create a passing breeze, or what BFers guess "might" have happened or could happen, or what incredible scenario would or wouldn't surprise you.
CommuterRun
04-03-10, 08:43 AM
Large tourist buses, just like 18 wheelers, can cause a large pressure wave in front with a vacuum in the middle. A close pass to a cyclist can push them away initially and as the cyclist compensates, the vacuum gets them and sucks them under the bus/18 wheeler.
Not to pick on CB, but this is a lot of hooey. I regularly ride a 60 mph speed limit highway frequented by tractor/trailers, busses, dump trucks, RVs and other large vehicles. Sure you can feel the pressure wave of the displaced air. It might, maybe, even blow your hat off, but it's not going to suck anybody under the wheels. The only way to end up there is to deliberately go there.
Not to pick on CB, but this is a lot of hooey. I regularly ride a 60 mph speed limit highway frequented by tractor/trailers, busses, dump trucks, RVs and other large vehicles. Sure you can feel the pressure wave of the displaced air. It might, maybe, even blow your hat off, but it's not going to suck anybody under the wheels. The only way to end up there is to deliberately go there.
BarracksSi
04-03-10, 09:46 AM
The pictures and maps I have seen do not show any possible left turn anywhere near the accident. The police say that the physical evidence and witness statements indicate that the bike rider was on the sidewalk as the bus approached and started to pass the kids, the rider then turned off the sidewalk and hit the bus.
That should be the end of it. Kid screwed up, got himself under a bus.
Unfortunately, we have idiots here who can't possibly comprehend that anyone on a bike can make a mistake at all. They think that cyclists of every age are completely infallible and that any accident involving a motor vehicle is the driver's fault.
Just wait until they see an accident like this firsthand. I'll bet they won't make the same knee-jerk social conspiracy remarks after that.
That should be the end of it. Kid screwed up, got himself under a bus.
Unfortunately, we have idiots here who can't possibly comprehend that anyone on a bike can make a mistake at all. They think that cyclists of every age are completely infallible and that any accident involving a motor vehicle is the driver's fault.
Just wait until they see an accident like this firsthand. I'll bet they won't make the same knee-jerk social conspiracy remarks after that.
dobber
04-03-10, 01:12 PM
But nothing! The issue is: does a passing motor vehicle really exert a force powerful enough to suck a bicyclist under its wheels and do such "sucking" bicycle accidents occur; not does it create a passing breeze, or what BFers guess "might" have happened or could happen, or what incredible scenario would or wouldn't surprise you.
I would hazard the guess that there are too many variables to have a black and white answer.
Kid screwed up, got himself under a bus.
That's a little harsh, given that a child died. We don't know exactly what happened, he could have been riding no-handed or perhaps drifted off the sidewalk edge. MAybe I bug flew in his face or he was looking at something.
Kids shouldn't pay for being kids with their lives, they should get scraped knees and scoldings.
I would hazard the guess that there are too many variables to have a black and white answer.
Kid screwed up, got himself under a bus.
That's a little harsh, given that a child died. We don't know exactly what happened, he could have been riding no-handed or perhaps drifted off the sidewalk edge. MAybe I bug flew in his face or he was looking at something.
Kids shouldn't pay for being kids with their lives, they should get scraped knees and scoldings.
BarracksSi
04-03-10, 01:14 PM
The last time I was at Disney World, nothing short of the Monorail moved anywhere near fast enough to create a "suck" effect.
That's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen around here.
That's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen around here.
sudo bike
04-03-10, 01:16 PM
But nothing! The issue is: does a passing motor vehicle really exert a force powerful enough to suck a bicyclist under its wheels[...]
The issue for you, maybe; that was the original assertion. I said simply that it could quite conceivably knock an inexperienced, weaker rider off-balance and cause a crash. Period.
[...]and do such "sucking" bicycle accidents occur; not does it create a passing breeze, or what BFers guess "might" have happened or could happen, or what incredible scenario would or wouldn't surprise you.
Whatever, dude. Not here to convince you. If you can't conceive the possibility of a bus knocking a kid off-balance and crashing, fantastic. I don't particularly care enough to look for non-existent crash statistics. All I've said is that I've felt strong wake's produced by buses - and while not a problem for me - I could see it screwing up a weaker rider. I didn't really think this was a far-reaching, earth-shattering assertion, but dismiss it if you wish.
The issue for you, maybe; that was the original assertion. I said simply that it could quite conceivably knock an inexperienced, weaker rider off-balance and cause a crash. Period.
[...]and do such "sucking" bicycle accidents occur; not does it create a passing breeze, or what BFers guess "might" have happened or could happen, or what incredible scenario would or wouldn't surprise you.
Whatever, dude. Not here to convince you. If you can't conceive the possibility of a bus knocking a kid off-balance and crashing, fantastic. I don't particularly care enough to look for non-existent crash statistics. All I've said is that I've felt strong wake's produced by buses - and while not a problem for me - I could see it screwing up a weaker rider. I didn't really think this was a far-reaching, earth-shattering assertion, but dismiss it if you wish.
sudo bike
04-03-10, 01:18 PM
The last time I was at Disney World, nothing short of the Monorail moved anywhere near fast enough to create a "suck" effect.
That's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen around here.
Myself, I never said it was involved in this particular case. I've not read it thoroughly. Just saying it's possible, is all.
That's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen around here.
Myself, I never said it was involved in this particular case. I've not read it thoroughly. Just saying it's possible, is all.
CB HI
04-03-10, 01:38 PM
Such closed minds.
The effect is real, scientifically based. If the truck or bus passing you at 3 or 4 feet separation does not rock your socks, then try it at less than one foot separation where the effect is significantly magnified.
The effect is real, scientifically based. If the truck or bus passing you at 3 or 4 feet separation does not rock your socks, then try it at less than one foot separation where the effect is significantly magnified.
Brontide
04-03-10, 01:45 PM
My thoughts, not that anyone really cares.
1) This is a tragedy.
2) The bus does not appear to be at fault ( see #1 )
3) A helmet does not appear to have played a part either way.
I've watches 10 yo's bicycle around, they are often distracted, not watching further than their front wheel, are often uncoordinated, and do not know how to deal with sudden or emergency changes. Case and point one nearly rammed me today on my bike ride because he didn't notice me till too late that we were crossing paths and I ended up stopping rather than find out how coordinated he was. Were the parents neglectful, probably not, the whole thing probably happened within moments; but I don't have enough information to know one way or another.
1) This is a tragedy.
2) The bus does not appear to be at fault ( see #1 )
3) A helmet does not appear to have played a part either way.
I've watches 10 yo's bicycle around, they are often distracted, not watching further than their front wheel, are often uncoordinated, and do not know how to deal with sudden or emergency changes. Case and point one nearly rammed me today on my bike ride because he didn't notice me till too late that we were crossing paths and I ended up stopping rather than find out how coordinated he was. Were the parents neglectful, probably not, the whole thing probably happened within moments; but I don't have enough information to know one way or another.
Brontide
04-03-10, 01:49 PM
The effect is real, scientifically based. If the truck or bus passing you at 3 or 4 feet separation does not rock your socks, then try it at less than one foot separation where the effect is significantly magnified.
Nobody doubts that TT's don't create a wake, but we doubt there is enough force to "suck" a cyclist off their wheels and under the truck. Also 1 foot is a clearly unsafe distance at *any* speed with *any* vehicle as far as I'm concerned.
Nobody doubts that TT's don't create a wake, but we doubt there is enough force to "suck" a cyclist off their wheels and under the truck. Also 1 foot is a clearly unsafe distance at *any* speed with *any* vehicle as far as I'm concerned.
BarracksSi
04-03-10, 01:52 PM
Myself, I never said it was involved in this particular case. I've not read it thoroughly. Just saying it's possible, is all.
At DISNEY WORLD????
You've never been there, have you?
At DISNEY WORLD????
You've never been there, have you?
BarracksSi
04-03-10, 01:53 PM
My thoughts, not that anyone really cares.
Unfortunately, nobody cares. See my first post (#34).
Unfortunately, nobody cares. See my first post (#34).
BarracksSi
04-03-10, 01:54 PM
That's a little harsh, given that a child died.
Hey, life's harsh. Sorry. Time for people to grow up.
Hey, life's harsh. Sorry. Time for people to grow up.
dobber
04-03-10, 01:56 PM
Such closed minds
Such inability to cleave the situation. Nobody is disputing the fact that vehicles produce turbulent wakes, the question is that a low pressure zone large enough to suck a person underneath is created.
Such inability to cleave the situation. Nobody is disputing the fact that vehicles produce turbulent wakes, the question is that a low pressure zone large enough to suck a person underneath is created.
BarracksSi
04-03-10, 02:10 PM
Such inability to cleave the situation. Nobody is disputing the fact that vehicles produce turbulent wakes, the question is that a low pressure zone large enough to suck a person underneath is created.
... and at speeds typically seen at Disney World, not I-95 or Talladega.
... and at speeds typically seen at Disney World, not I-95 or Talladega.
CB HI
04-03-10, 02:29 PM
Such inability to cleave the situation. Nobody is disputing the fact that vehicles produce turbulent wakes, the question is that a low pressure zone large enough to suck a person underneath is created.Colorado Driver's Ed classes in the late 60s / early 70s showed films of test conducted between 18 wheelers and sports cars. The test proved the effect was strong enough to pull the sports car into the side of the trailer.
sudo bike
04-03-10, 02:32 PM
At DISNEY WORLD????
You've never been there, have you?
Did you hear the whistling as my point flew over your head?
You've never been there, have you?
Did you hear the whistling as my point flew over your head?
Brontide
04-03-10, 02:36 PM
Colorado Driver's Ed classes in the late 60s / early 70s showed films of test conducted between 18 wheelers and sports cars. The test proved the effect was strong enough to pull the sports car into the side of the trailer.
* citation needed
* citation needed
BarracksSi
04-03-10, 02:37 PM
Did you hear the whistling as my point flew over your head?
Did you understand that this happened at Disney World and not any theoretical scenario that you're babbling about?
Did you understand that this happened at Disney World and not any theoretical scenario that you're babbling about?