Opinions

[Akulakat]

Not long ago a bicyclist was killed while riding on a Two Lane Blacktop road (no shoulders). The speed limit for the road is 55 mph. It is somewhat hilly, but straight. It was early in the morning (8 am) and he was traveling with traffic going East (into the sun). A school bus came from behind and hit him with the mirror. The bus driver states he never saw the rider because of the sun.

I'm all for letting us have our rights to the road, but I for one would never ride on such a road unless it was an organized event. The high speed and lack of 'bailout' space would keep me away.

Whats everyones' thoughts on this?

[Bobatin]

Troll?

[MMPC]

That road - as you describe it - would not be high on my list of places to ride either. The combination of hills, speed, no shoulder and time of day/direction of travel would seem to be a recipe for disaster; and I guess it was. :(

[caloso]

I'm all for letting us have our rights to the road, but I for one would never ride on such a road unless it was an organized event.

How is this a rights issue? It seems to be a question of judgment about the safety of a route. I have the right to ride my bike off the roof of my house but it's not a safe route.

(I think Bobatin is on the right track.)

[TechJD]

Well I have as much right to any road as any vehicle
I just need to make sure they see me by wearing bright clothes
and Oppsss I didnt see him/them isnt an exceuse
you are responseable for where your vehicle is on the road and everything around it
I dont car if you on a bike, carriage, car, bus, truck or tricycle
and Drivers need to learn this
all drivers of any vehicle , Bikes dont own the road and neither do motorized vehicles
we have to share

[samundsen]

Well I have as much right to any road as any vehicle
I just need to make sure they see me by wearing bright clothes
and Oppsss I didnt see him/them isnt an exceuse
you are responseable for where your vehicle is on the road and everything around it
I dont car if you on a bike, carriage, car, bus, truck or tricycle
and Drivers need to learn this
all drivers of any vehicle , Bikes dont own the road and neither do motorized vehicles
we have to share

Nice sentiment, but it doesn't really do much when you're dead. Yes, you have the right, but that doesn't mean you have to be stupid. Some places are simply too dangerous to ride. There are some places I wouldn't even drive a car.

Sverre

[supcom]

Not long ago a bicyclist was killed while riding on a Two Lane Blacktop road (no shoulders). The speed limit for the road is 55 mph. It is somewhat hilly, but straight. It was early in the morning (8 am) and he was traveling with traffic going East (into the sun). A school bus came from behind and hit him with the mirror. The bus driver states he never saw the rider because of the sun.

I'm all for letting us have our rights to the road, but I for one would never ride on such a road unless it was an organized event. The high speed and lack of 'bailout' space would keep me away.

Whats everyones' thoughts on this?

If I had that attitude, I would barely get out of my own neighborhood. Accidents happen. It doesn't matter if you are on a bike of in a car. That same road you describe would have no 'bailout' room if I were driving a car and another driver crosses over to my lane head on. Despite that, I would not avoid the road.

By the way, unless there is a barrier or a steep dropoff, you can always 'bailout' by running off the road if you deem it neccessary. Even if you lose control and fall of the bike, bruises would be better than death.

[John E]

This is a tough situation. The easy solution, not always available, is to take an alternate route. For recreational cycling, I choose my weather, time of day, and route to avoid such situations. For transportation cycling, I do not always have that option. This is why I am an activist, fighting for bicycle-friendly intersection and road design, as well as education and greater accountability for all road users. The faster the traffic, the more I want a wide curb lane, a shoulder, or a bike lane.

[madpogue]

The bus driver states he never saw the rider because of the sun. Then, by his own admission, he was driving too fast for the conditions, and is at fault.

[madpogue]

How is this a rights issue? It seems to be a question of judgment about the safety of a route. I have the right to ride my bike off the roof of my house but it's not a safe route. The roof of your house doesn't exist for the purpose of you cycling off of it. The road exists for the purpose of being driven on by vehicles, whether motorized or not. The roof of your house is your private property. A road is a public good, paid for by everyone. When one class of intended user, who pays as much or more for it, cannot use a public good in a way that another class can, it is, by definition, a rights issue.

[Kathleen]

I wear a bright orange vest with bright yellow reflective tape. I have CatEye yellow LED flashing light in front. I have a CatEye LED 120 in the front also blinking. On my helment I have a flashing Sport Spot with 4 white LED flashing. In the back I have 3 VistaLite tail lights flashing. I'm still invisible!
The type of road you describe gives me cause for great concern.

[phinney]

Operating a motor vehicle carries a huge responsibility. Hitting a pedestrian or cyclist with a motor vehicle should result in mandatory jail time. If the ped/cyclist is killed then the perpetrator should be charged with homicide.

Is the killer still driving a bus?

[HappyTrails]

My daughter-in-law's sister (her only sibling) was killed last year on a similar road. She was hit in the head by the mirror of a pick up truck. The coward left her dying in the road like a dog. He later had the nerve to come back to the scene of the accident as a spectator as she was being prepared to be airlifted to the hospital. Finally, just last week, he pleaded guilty, giving closure to a very painful episode for this family.

I would choose not to ride on these types of roads having experienced first-hand the potential for disaster.

[Stor Mand]

I don't know about other states but bicycles are NOT allowed access to all roadways, specifically the highways, where speeds are 55MPH+.

[dobber]

To me, one of the elements of avid cycling is risk mitigation. Sure, I have legal standing to ride my bicycle on a given road. But would an alternative route suit me better. Is the 3 or 4 mile deviation outweighed by the reduced risk.

If I have the alternative to ride on a road with a X foot shoulder vs a Y foot one, at what point do I accept the increased distance or the killer hill. What factors might sway my decision (weather, time of day, traffic load).

I'll give up a shouldered road entirely for one with little or no traffic, but in that case, my head is on a swivel to constantly check my six.

I'd much rather be inconvienenced then a statistic.

[Daily Commute]

First, country roads like Akulakat describes are often the only way to get around outside of the city. If we stay off of them, we might as well stay home. The bus driver was clearly at fault. But the story reminds us of a little-mentioned hazard--we all need to pay more attention for careless drivers at sunset and sunrise. The most powerful blinkie you could construct (see Total Geekiness, http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=42629) is useless next to the sun.

[John E]

I don't know about other states but bicycles are NOT allowed access to all roadways, specifically the highways, where speeds are 55MPH+. As Daily Commute noted, high-speed roads are often the ONLY available connections between point A and point B. In various parts of California, cyclists have limited access to the shoulders of some [65mph/105kph] Interstate freeways, because there is no reasonable alternative. Fortunately, these tend to be quite safe, because they have wide, well-maintained shoulders.

I hate having to take the lane on a fast street when cycling into the rising or setting sun, precisely because of the very real threat posed by sun-blinded motorists. Unfortunately, too many judges and juries do not realize that driving at the posted speed limit into the rising or setting sun generally violates the prima facie speed limit ("as fast as is safe for the local road, weather, traffic, and other relevant conditions"), just as driving at the post limit in a heavy fog would.

[Stor Mand]

I don't know about other states but bicycles are NOT allowed access to all roadways, specifically the highways, where speeds are 55MPH+.

Not that it matter but I failed to put what state I was referring that they are NOT allowed access to all roadways which is Massachusetts. Most of the roads here are awful anyway. :rolleyes:

[caloso]

Madpogue, I think you're missing my point. Perhaps my roof analogy wasn't the best.

We absolutely have the right to cycle on public roads and I'll be the first to defend that right. But this story serves tragically as a reminder to be aware of all the road conditions, including the angle of the sun at the particular time of day.

For some weird reason it seems that every E-W street in Sacramento County is laid out so that the sun is directly in westbound eyes every afternoon during the summer. So it's something that I try to be aware of.

[TechJD]

Well maybe this explains all the drivers thinking about serving toward bikers
"Hey if I scare them bad enough they will stay off the roads"
and according to they way you all talk they are right

[BDK]

If those are the conditions it just wasn't smart for the cyclist to be there. You can argue your rights all day but the bus driver may have a legit reason for not seeing him. If you're dead the whole rights issue really doesn't matter. An how about the fact that the bus driver has to live with that for the rest of his life too. It was irresponsible.

[phinney]

If those are the conditions it just wasn't smart for the cyclist to be there. You can argue your rights all day but the bus driver may have a legit reason for not seeing him. If you're dead the whole rights issue really doesn't matter. An how about the fact that the bus driver has to live with that for the rest of his life too. It was irresponsible.

I can't think of many legitimate reasons to kill anyone with a bus.

Different people are different. You or me would no doubt be tormented at having killed someone through our bad driving. Some people would rationalize that the bike shouldn't have been there in the first place and have no problem living with it.

I hope the driver at least loses their license to drive a bus!

[BDK]

I didn't say legit reason to kill him, I said to not see him - big difference. If the scenario played out like I said, and the bus driver didn't see him, it really doesn't matter. He will be tormented. My mother in law hit a child crossing the street on a bike 40 years ago and still has nightmares - I'll wager that the bus driver will too.
I'm with everyone here that cyclists have road rights just like cars, but just like motorcyclists, we take a bigger risk not being in a more protective vehicle. Riding on a road with hills and no shoulders is risky.

[LittleBigMan]

Experienced motorists and cyclists are both aware of the dangers set by low angles of the sun. Safety is everyone's responsibility.

[madpogue]

For some weird reason it seems that every E-W street in Sacramento County is laid out so that the sun is directly in westbound eyes every afternoon during the summer. Further substantiation of my point that the driver was going too fast for the conditions. If this is common on the roads in the area, the driver should have been aware of that, and driven accordingly. It's exactly akin to snow; here in WI, the law presumes that people are aware of conditions such as snow that require them to slow down.

Would I ride that road under those conditions? Probably not. Does/should that sway any other person's decision to ride it? Of course not. What culpability does that place on the victim? None. To what degree does it exonerate the person at fault? None.

"He shouldn't have been riding on that road" is exactly analagous to "she shouldn't have been walking down that street dressed like that."

To the "legit reason for not seeing" post, there is no such thing. If you can't see what's in front of you, the law requires you (as does common sense, as does your obligation to the safety of everyone around you) to adjust your driving so that you can see. Low sun is no different from snow, hard rain, fog or the like in this manner. All these conditions trump the speed limit.

[Chris L]

I didn't say legit reason to kill him, I said to not see him - big difference.

Not if it has exactly the same effect.

If the scenario played out like I said, and the bus driver didn't see him, it really doesn't matter. He will be tormented. My mother in law hit a child crossing the street on a bike 40 years ago and still has nightmares - I'll wager that the bus driver will too..

We can only hope so, although I have reason to have my doubts.


I'm with everyone here that cyclists have road rights just like cars, but just like motorcyclists, we take a bigger risk not being in a more protective vehicle. Riding on a road with hills and no shoulders is risky.

Every human activity in the world is risky. I'm taking a risk by sitting here typing this post, as I will be when I ride to work tomorrow. I actually disagree that cycling is more risky than driving, I know that my bicycle has been extremely forgiving in every crash I've ever had (including five that involved cars). I don't think it's irresponsible to ride on the road at all.

You could make the same argument about any driver that gets killed on the roads at any stage, are they irresponsible too? I'm sure that if we had appropriate law enforcement for these situations, this type of "accident" would happen a lot less frequently than it does now.

[BDK]

Chris - however forgiving your bikes have been (an overexaggeration if I ever heard one), if the guy had been in a car he probably wouldn't have died and the calls for the the lynching of the bus driver wouldn't have occurred

[Chris L]

if the guy had been in a car he probably wouldn't have died and the calls for the the lynching of the bus driver wouldn't have occurred

You're kidding right? Have you checked the weight differential between a bus and a car lately? You see, this is the whole issue. Cyclists aren't the only road users who are endangered by dangerous drivers. In fact, the number of drivers killed around here (and I suspect everywhere else in the world) far outstrips the number of cyclists killed. Forget about the numbers who partake in the activity (although, even when that is taken into account, the bicycle still comes out a much safer form of transport), the fact is that using the roads in any capacity is risky, just as is every other moment of our lives.

Effectively, your whole argument hinges on one incident and what "might have happened had circumstances been different", which is extremely doubtful at best. If you take this argument to it's logical conclusion, it would read something along the lines of "anyone who uses a road in anything other than a big truck is taking an irresponsible risk". Um, no actually, because millions of people successfully do this everyday without suffering dire consequences. It's only when one lunatic gets behind the wheel of a large vehicle that problems seem to occur.

[Allister]

...but I for one would never ride on such a road unless it was an organized event.

Then don't. We all have our own level of acceptable risk. No-one will blame you if this is above yours.

[Helmet-Head]

The key principle in traffic cycling is to be visible and predictable. If the sun is blinding the motorists behind you, you cannot be visible. Get off the road.

[Chris L]

The key principle in traffic cycling is to be visible and predictable. If the sun is blinding the motorists behind you, you cannot be visible. Get off the road.

Of course, the difficult issue here is actually knowing whether the sun is blinding them or not. The truth is that being genuinely blinded by the sun happens surprisingly rarely, and I doubt too many motorists would be on the road (or be able to remain on the road very long) in such a situation themselves.

[Seanholio]

You're kidding right? Have you checked the weight differential between a bus and a car lately?

Lawmakers did not "forget" to require seatbelts on buses. They were not judged as needing seatbelts because they tend to be one of the biggest, by weight, vehicles on the road. In a crash, while they don't win 100% of the time, my money is with the bus.

[Csson]

The key principle in traffic cycling is to be visible and predictable. If the sun is blinding the motorists behind you, you cannot be visible. Get off the road.

The key principle in traffic is to see where you are going. If you can't see where you are going get off the road.

I can't see how the cyclist is to be blamed for something like this, when someone else is obviously breaking the law.

Speaking of buses, I believe all buses travelling between cities in Sweden are currently being equipped with seatbelts due to a bad (several deaths) bus crash on icy roads a couple of years ago.

/Csson

[BDK]

So now the guy is a lunatic? You are the one who seems unhinged here Chris. By the way, could there be any possible situation in your mind where a cyclist fatality could be their own fault?

[Chris L]

Lawmakers did not "forget" to require seatbelts on buses. They were not judged as needing seatbelts because they tend to be one of the biggest, by weight, vehicles on the road. In a crash, while they don't win 100% of the time, my money is with the bus.

My point exactly, so driving a car in front of a bus is no more negligent or irresponsible than riding a bike in front of one.

So now the guy is a lunatic?

Lunatic or not, the guy is clearly a menace to all other road users, be they cyclists, pedestrians or other drivers.

You are the one who seems unhinged here Chris.

How so? I merely stated a fact that you seem to be unable to refute with any comments based on the issue at hand, instead attempting to make things personal. Either that, or you're just trolling.

By the way, could there be any possible situation in your mind where a cyclist fatality could be their own fault?

Yes there are, this isn't one of them. Perhaps if the cyclist had been the one breaking the law, I might feel differently.

[Seanholio]

My point exactly, so driving a car in front of a bus is no more negligent or irresponsible than riding a bike in front of one.

Agreed. My post was meant to be in support of yours, not a seriously lame attempt to argue against it.
:D