Hey, I'm breaking this discussion out from the "What music are you listening to?" thread. I'm curious to know who's listening in what formats, and why...
If I had a hermetically sealed room full of $uper $pendy hi-fi equipment to listen on, I might miss my LPs. As it is, I prefer the more durable, and easily reproducible CD.
For all practical purposes, I agree that CDs are in many ways more convenient than vinyl, and if you're buying new music, you pretty much have to have a CD player, but I've kept my old vinyl in good condition, I don't consider myself an "audiophile" and I don't have "a hermetically sealed room full of $uper $pendy hi-fi equipment" to play it on, just a mid-line Sansui receiver from the 70's ($50 used), a good Thorens turntable (also $50 used) with a quality Shure cartridge (also about $50), and two pairs of good speakers (a pair of AR 3a's and a pair of KLHs, also about $50 a pair used).
Early on, when CDs first came out, I bought some CDs of my favorite albums and compared the sound of the vinyl to the sound of the CDs and I pretty much decided to stick with the vinyl. As for longevity, there are several new studies which indicate that the data layer on most CDs is in fact much more highly prone to oxidition than previously thought, and CDs may in fact only have a life measured in decades, as compared to centuries for well-cared for vinyl records. So if you want your CDs to remain playable in 20 years, you may need that hermetically sealed room for them, instead. Here's one link of many I found on this topic: http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20040407020458data_trunc_sys.shtml
I also quintupled the size of my vinyl collection in the late 80s through the 90s, buying up perfectly good vinyl from people dumping their collections at pennies on the dollar for copies in the new, overpriced CD format (the price jumped from about $8 to $10 for a vinyl LP in the late 80s to $15 to $20 for the same thing in the CD format).
Call me a Luddite if you want to, but IMO, Americans in general are suckers to rush out and buy the latest technological innovations, replacing and obsoleting perfectly good existing technologies in the process. Vinyl and the equipment to play it on is still widely available in Europe, but in the USA, it has become very scarce, except perhaps in DJ circles...
:)
FXjohn
08-30-04, 12:56 PM
The big problem is scratches.
A great analog medium I have found is reel-to-reel.
Sounds excellant, and you can just play your record once to record on the reel, and listen again and again. Day in and day out CD's are an excellant medium especially for car stereos and walkman, records can't compete in that sense.
gilby
08-30-04, 12:58 PM
I've never had a nice record player or a very nice stereo for CDs. I got my first CD player in 1997--not because I was anti-CD, just because cassettes & vinyl were cheaper. I had this old Califone classroom record player with a detachable tube-amp speaker. The sound was mono, but so rich! Oh, how I loved it...but I finally put it by the trash this weekend. I will probably have to replace it with something shiny and new at some point, as most of what I have on vinyl is either really old, limited edition, or vinyl-only singles, and therefore unavailable on CD. Most albums on vinyl being released now costs as much or more than the CD version.
Do you know what I love most about vinyl and cassettes? The true B-side. That pause in the middle where the music stops, and you must physically flip the medium. I love that anticipation as you wait for the music to begin again.
randya
08-30-04, 01:37 PM
The big problem is scratches.
CDs scratch, too, and scratches can affect CD performance as much as scratches affect vinyl. In either case it's primarily a matter of taking good care of the carrier medium.
I agree that magnetic tape is also still a viable format. In fact, I've noticed that since I switched my video system from VCR to DVD, I've had more problems with scratched rental DVDs not playing correctly than I ever had with defective rental VCR tapes.
Although it has superior sound quality, reel to reel is not really a user-friendly medium - too much hassle for the convenience-minded listener. Cassette tapes are much better for convenience, but of course you don't have anywhere near the volume and density of magnetic particles on a cassette tape that you do on an open reel tape...
RegularGuy
08-30-04, 02:15 PM
Hey, I'm breaking this discussion out from the "What music are you listening to?" thread. I'm curious to know who's listening in what formats, and why...
The break-out is a good idea. I don't really expect the CD v. LP debate to yield any more definitive answers than the Campy v. Shimano or PC v Mac debates, but the discussion should be good.
For all practical purposes, I agree that CDs are in many ways more convenient than vinyl...
Convenience is indeed the cornerstone of my argument. I will admit that LPs have a marginally better sound quality. CD quality sound is good enough for me though, and it doesn't have the annoying hiss caused by a needle (or magnetic head for that matter) dragging across the play surface. Nor does a speck of dust cause an annoying "pop." Let's not even talk about what a hair on the surface of an LP could do to my listening anjoyment. And a scratch? Fageddaboudit! A scratch can be polished out of a CD.
I like the fact that with a CD I can program tracks, or skip them, using a remote control. Some LPs I want to hear straight through. Others, I just want to hear the good tracks. Sometimes it's fun to put five Cds in the changer and play tracks at random. Cueing an individual track on an LP is a minor pain. With any tape technology, it becomes a big pain.
I don't consider myself an "audiophile" and I don't have "a hermetically sealed room full of $uper $pendy hi-fi equipment" to play it on, just a mid-line Sansui receiver from the 70's ($50 used), a good Thorens turntable (also $50 used) with a quality Shure cartridge (also about $50), and two pairs of good speakers (a pair of AR 3a's and a pair of KLHs, also about $50 a pair used).
I, too, have a decent turntable that I picked up cheap. I play it through my CD stereo. I need a better cartridge. Occasionally I have reason to listen to an LP.
As for longevity, there are several new studies which indicate that the data layer on most CDs is in fact much more highly prone to oxidition than previously thought, and CDs may in fact only have a life measured in decades, as compared to centuries for well-cared for vinyl records. So if you want your CDs to remain playable in 20 years, you may need that hermetically sealed room for them, instead.
I've seen this information, too. I don't really worry about longevity too much. I fully expect that in another 20 years or so there will be a new format. I'm guessing 20 years of play pretty much destroys an LP, too. In the meantime, CDs are easier to handle and more durable. If I spill raspberry jam on a CD, I just wash it in the sink and dry it with a soft cloth.
I also quintupled the size of my vinyl collection in the late 80s through the 90s, buying up perfectly good vinyl from people dumping their collections at pennies on the dollar for copies in the new, overpriced CD format (the price jumped from about $8 to $10 for a vinyl LP in the late 80s to $15 to $20 for the same thing in the CD format).
Soooo...You're the guy who bought all my records! i hope you are enjoying them. Everything has gone up in price. CDs were overpriced to begin with, but I don't think they are really out of line now.
Call me a Luddite if you want to....
OK. You're a Luddite. :p
IMO, Americans in general are suckers to rush out and buy the latest technological innovations, replacing and obsoleting perfectly good existing technologies in the process. Vinyl and the equipment to play it on is still widely available in Europe, but in the USA, it has become very scarce, except perhaps in DJ circles...
This is true. In my defense, I will say that I didn't rush to jump on the CD bandwagon. When CD's were becoming the rage, I was in grad school, living on a shoestring budget and not paying much attention to popular music.
Anyway, to those who prefer LPs, more power to you. CD sound is good enough to suit me and the many conveniences of CDs have me sold on the technology.
FXjohn
08-30-04, 02:26 PM
CDs scratch, too, and scratches can affect CD performance as much as scratches affect vinyl. In either case it's primarily a matter of taking good care of the carrier medium.
I agree that magnetic tape is also still a viable format. In fact, I've noticed that since I switched my video system from VCR to DVD, I've had more problems with scratched rental DVDs not playing correctly than I ever had with defective rental VCR tapes.
Although it has superior sound quality, reel to reel is not really a user-friendly medium - too much hassle for the convenience-minded listener. Cassette tapes are much better for convenience, but of course you don't have anywhere near the volume and density of magnetic particles on a cassette tape that you do on an open reel tape...
yeah but reel to reel looks cool as heck.
You could use a hi-fi VCR to get the same quality probably though..
larue
08-30-04, 05:10 PM
I use CD, Vinyl and digital. There are advantages to each and I enjoy each format in it's way. For vinyl I love the packaging and for the old stuff I love digging through the crates to snatch that perfect find, only problem is availability and the fact I can only listen to my vinyl at home on the stereo. CD's are readily available so that is basically why I like the format, but digital is even better. Either by ripping the cd or by downloading (via iTunes, all legal here) the music I can store it on my computer and take it with my on my iPod and now I can stream it from my computer to my home stereo which is awesome. If I can find the album on vinyl then that is always my choice and I often have a CD copy as well though usually a burn.
So vinyl has the amazing sound and that indescribable cool factor but cds/digital have the portability.
gilby
08-30-04, 05:35 PM
Oh, and what about minidisc? I'm slightly embarrassed to admit I still use that format, but it's great for recording things live and still used in radio. I have a feeling it will go the way of the 8-track...now there's a medium that was dead before my time, so I never really knew the advantages/disadvantages.
randya
08-30-04, 05:55 PM
8-track tape cartridges used a wide tape format so the sound quality theoretically should have been good - closer to reel to reel sound quality than to cassette sound quality. The trouble with 8-tracks was the generally crappy quality of the cartridges the tapes were housed in, and the frequently annoying track change in the middle of a song. Still there are collectors that scour the country for obscure titles on 8-track and are proficient at restoring the tape cartridges to improve playback characteristics...
Even more obscure than 8-tracks were 4-track tapes and tape players - blink once sometime in the early 70s and you would have missed the 4-track tape cartridge entirely!! Still, there are dedicated 4-track collectors out there - see links below!
I don't really expect the CD v. LP debate to yield any more definitive answers than the Campy v. Shimano or PC v Mac debates, but the discussion should be good..
Quite...
Convenience is indeed the cornerstone of my argument. I will admit that LPs have a marginally better sound quality. CD quality sound is good enough for me though, and it doesn't have the annoying hiss caused by a needle (or magnetic head for that matter) dragging across the play surface. Nor does a speck of dust cause an annoying "pop." Let's not even talk about what a hair on the surface of an LP could do to my listening anjoyment. And a scratch? Fageddaboudit!..
Careful handling and storage of LPs, use of an antistatic device and regular cleaning before playing, as well as using a good cartridge and stylus; keeping the stylus clean, replacing it when necessary and keeping the turntable and tone arm in adjustment are all required for good sound reproduction from LPs. I agree this counts against the convenience factor. But some people aren't bothered so much by the surface noise and such and consider these to be part of the 'ambiance' of an LP...
A scratch can be polished out of a CD..
I guess you've never had a teenager get his hands on your favorite CDs...I could have polished those CDs down to the data layer and there still would have been scratches...
I, too, have a decent turntable that I picked up cheap. I play it through my CD stereo. I need a better cartridge. Occasionally I have reason to listen to an LP
Try here for a new turntable, a better cartridge, new stylus, TT belts or other vinyl essentials...http://www.garage-a-records.com/index.php
I've seen this information, too. I don't really worry about longevity too much. I fully expect that in another 20 years or so there will be a new format. I'm guessing 20 years of play pretty much destroys an LP, too. In the meantime, CDs are easier to handle and more durable. If I spill raspberry jam on a CD, I just wash it in the sink and dry it with a soft cloth..
I frimly believe that an LP will easily last 20 years if carefully cared for and played on decent equipment that is kept tuned up (toenarm properly balanced and adjusted, stylus kept clean and replaced as needed)
Soooo...You're the guy who bought all my records! i hope you are enjoying them. Everything has gone up in price. CDs were overpriced to begin with, but I don't think they are really out of line now..
Most of the cost of a CD is the overhead and profit of the corporation that made the darn thing, how much does a CD-R cost in bulk - $0.25?? I believe that several of the major music companies have already been convicted of antitrust violations for fixing the price of CDs, a few years back...
Anyway, to those who prefer LPs, more power to you. CD sound is good enough to suit me and the many conveniences of CDs have me sold on the technology.
Hey, I'm always happy to find other people that enjoy the music - get it any way you can!!!
Rev.Chuck
08-30-04, 06:45 PM
I finally ditched my album collection (over a thousand) It stung, but I had not listened to them in quite a while, and had a lot of them duplicated on CD (so I could listen in the car) The only things I kept were my comedy classics, The Pythons, Jonathan Winters, Steve Martin.
While there was potential in the wide tape of the 8-track it was split into four narrow "tapes" I still have Hotel California and The Star Wars sound track on 8 but no way to play them.
I am no hi-tech junkie, but if I could afford the big memory I-pod, I would get it and load every bit of music and comedy I have into the thing. Then I could listen to anything I wanted anytime.
zoogirl
08-30-04, 09:48 PM
I've seen this information, too. I don't really worry about longevity too much. I fully expect that in another 20 years or so there will be a new format. I'm guessing 20 years of play pretty much destroys an LP, too. In the meantime, CDs are easier to handle and more durable. If I spill raspberry jam on a CD, I just wash it in the sink and dry it with a soft cloth.
I've got '78's nearing or at the 100 year old mark. I imagine my great grand children will be able to listen to them too. I really doubt any CD will beat that.
I don't actually own a CD player. Anything I can't get on vinyl, I tape. Just this week I had the great good fortune to have a friend pass on her tapes of almost all of Alice Cooper's stuff. (What? I'm a HUGE fan. Gottaproblemwiththat?!). Anyway, she'd sold the car with the tape player and had no further use for 'em. Tape is okay, but I prefer my flatties.
Part of the enjoyment, for me, is the object itself. I can hold a very old record and imagine my 22 year old grandmother waltzing around the livingroom or my mom in bobby-sox and a Forties hairdo. The scratches and pops personalize the song and I actually miss them if I hear it on the radio without them. CD just seems souless, somehow. It's too perfect.
I like the sound of a vintage player too. I currently have a couple of forties/fifties console radio/record players, a plastic kid's player and a suitcase style stereo.
Ah well, to each their own!
slvoid
08-30-04, 09:55 PM
If I get vinyl, I'll have to get myself some horn speakers, a tube amp, candle light, and a big puffy chair.
CD, I can get myself a digital class A amp, some electrostatics, neon lighting and a bean bag chair.
For my listening purposes, I have a pair of HD580's and the clarity just knocks my socks off.
Afraid of scratching vinyl? ELP has a laser vinyl reader if you're willing to drop $13300.
Best compromise? SACD?
skitbraviking
08-30-04, 10:22 PM
All formats have their own virtues, so I listen to them all. I only collect 7" singles to any large degree anymore. But I will still buy a new long player now and again or a used one.
el Inglés
09-07-04, 10:21 AM
All formats have their own virtues, so I listen to them all. I only collect 7" singles to any large degree anymore. But I will still buy a new long player now and again or a used one.
I play LP´s and CD´s but prefer the sound of vinyl - too often the CD will sound a bit " flat " compared to the original - mind you CD´s do have it for convience when working at home .