Training & Nutrition - Rule of Thumb for Time in HR Zones

To preface, I've done a couple of VO2 Max testing sessions with my coach, and from that we have determined my heart rate zones. I did one of these recently, and my heart rate zones changed from when I previously did it (which was when I first began cycling).

The question: my "supra-threshold" HR zone is 161-167 (I have a max HR of 177) and my "aerobic capacity" HR zone is 168-172. In today's race, however, I sustained 166 ("supra-threshold") for 20 minutes and 168 ("aerobic capacity") for 10 minutes. Should sustaining those zones for that long be possible (given the name of the zones), or do I need to tweak them?

Is there a rule of thumb for how long you can sustain supra-threshold/aerobic capacity zones?

FYI I also train with power; I just like the see how they correlate.

Totals for time-in-zone or sustained these HRs continuously for these periods?

Totals for time-in-zone or sustained these HRs continuously for these periods?
Sustained

If you're training with power I wouldn't worry too much about HR zones. As you are probably aware, there are many factors that can change your HR for a given power output. A race is significantly more intense than training and your HR can be higher than normal due to extra adrenaline, dehydration etc.

What was your power output (Avg or NP) during the 20 min?

Would changing the HR zones (or their names) change how you train or race?

A race is significantly more intense than training.

If racing is significantly more intense than your training, you need to look at your training more closely. Make training hard, race easy sort of thing.

If racing is significantly more intense than your training, you need to look at your training more closely. Make training hard, race easy sort of thing.What was your last race?

I've done about that on a hard pass climb, while trying to hold the wheel of a better rider. The 10 minutes at 168 is not that hard, but the 20 at 166 which probably preceded it is hard. But not at all impossible with sufficient motivation. You're a tough dude. Good for you. Don't think you need to tweak the zones. They're doing what they say they do. You should notice an effect if you recover well.

You might also have been dehydrated, which is one reason power is now the thing instead of HR.

What was your last race?

As a complete one-off for me as I use cycling only to supplement, it was with a mixed bunch containing ex Cat 2 racers, keen sportive riders and TT riders in the UK. Because I'm so use to training alone & fast (99.9%) of the time, riding in a considerably large peleton that day & being shielded/drafted felt relatively easy, similar to a recovery ride. I wasn't going for the win, nor am I going to sprint, I had a game a few days later, so I finished in the bunch. I don't train specifically for cycling but if I did, I reckon I could easily hold my own even in a pro peleton from what I see on TV.

If your racing is tougher than your training, then you need to train race pace (or go above it) in training. Your body is only going to adapt to the strain that gets placed upon it.

As a complete one-off for me as I use cycling only to supplement, it was with a mixed bunch containing ex Cat 2 racers, keen sportive riders and TT riders in the UK. Because I'm so use to training alone & fast (99.9%) of the time, riding in a considerably large peleton that day & being shielded/drafted felt relatively easy, similar to a recovery ride. I wasn't going for the win, nor am I going to sprint, I had a game a few days later, so I finished in the bunch. I don't train specifically for cycling but if I did, I reckon I could easily hold my own even in a pro peleton from what I see on TV.

If your racing is tougher than your training, then you need to train race pace (or go above it) in training. Your body is only going to adapt to the strain that gets placed upon it.
Uh huh...:roflmao2:

Uh huh...:roflmao2:

I find being drafted relatively quite easy to handle. My training is far more intense when I'm alone than coasting in a peleton. A little more training specifically dedicated towards cycling, I could hold my own, in fact I know I could. Riders on flat stages, riding in big groups in pro peletons rarely look troubled, for large amounts of the stage. Even the guys drafting at the back trying to catch a break always seem to be untroubled. That is what I see anyway. Even the guys who do get dropped from the main peleton, it seems to be a strength endurance issue & not VO2.

I know some will disagree but rarely come out with a reason.

To preface, I've done a couple of VO2 Max testing sessions with my coach, and from that we have determined my heart rate zones. I did one of these recently, and my heart rate zones changed from when I previously did it (which was when I first began cycling).

The question: my "supra-threshold" HR zone is 161-167 (I have a max HR of 177) and my "aerobic capacity" HR zone is 168-172. In today's race, however, I sustained 166 ("supra-threshold") for 20 minutes and 168 ("aerobic capacity") for 10 minutes. Should sustaining those zones for that long be possible (given the name of the zones), or do I need to tweak them?

Is there a rule of thumb for how long you can sustain supra-threshold/aerobic capacity zones?

FYI I also train with power; I just like the see how they correlate.

When you say you have a max of 177, was that determined by testing or are you just taking that from the 220 minus age calculation?

When you say you have a max of 177, was that determined by testing or are you just taking that from the 220 minus age calculation?
Testing and from data from other races/training.

I reckon I could easily hold my own even in a pro peleton from what I see on TV.
I could easily win the Master's after watching Tiger Woods on TV. Looks like a piece of cake.

Oh, and when Kobe shoots hoops, it looks so effortless...like he's not even trying! I bet if I tried, I could compete in the NBA.

I could easily win the Master's after watching Tiger Woods on TV. Looks like a piece of cake.

Oh, and when Kobe shoots hoops, it looks so effortless...like he's not even trying! I bet if I tried, I could compete in the NBA.

There are technical, mechanical & most importantly, genetically gifted difference's between the sports. Its apples & oranges comparing, golf-basketball-cycling.

I watched literally hundreds of races. When cyclists can talk to each other in the peleton, 50 miles down the road, I could do that too ala A little more training specifically dedicated towards cycling.

As a complete one-off for me as I use cycling only to supplement, it was with a mixed bunch containing ex Cat 2 racers, keen sportive riders and TT riders in the UK. Because I'm so use to training alone & fast (99.9%) of the time, riding in a considerably large peleton that day & being shielded/drafted felt relatively easy, similar to a recovery ride. I wasn't going for the win, nor am I going to sprint, I had a game a few days later, so I finished in the bunch. I don't train specifically for cycling but if I did, I reckon I could easily hold my own even in a pro peleton from what I see on TV.

If your racing is tougher than your training, then you need to train race pace (or go above it) in training. Your body is only going to adapt to the strain that gets placed upon it.

http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/wh-double-facepalm.jpg

http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/wh-double-facepalm.jpg



I know some will disagree but rarely come out with a reason.

I guess I was right. I knew I would be.

I watched literally hundreds of races. When cyclists can talk to each other in the peleton, 50 miles down the road, I could do that too ala A little more training specifically dedicated towards cycling.

They look like that because their threshold power is literally double yours.

You have too state your reasons, so I can object, or it shows lack of knowledge.

There are technical, mechanical & most importantly, genetically gifted difference's between the sports. Its apples & oranges comparing, golf-basketball-cycling.

I watched literally hundreds of races. When cyclists can talk to each other in the peleton, 50 miles down the road, I could do that too ala A little more training specifically dedicated towards cycling.
Sigh...while they're having a nice chat, they're also sustaining wattages that would leave most of us in another zip code, draft or no draft.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/04/news/three-years%E2%80%99-of-fleche-wallone-power-data-from-marco-pinotti_112848

Go rent a powermeter, take a nice 4 hour and 40 minute ride one of these weekends, try to average 245 watts during said ride, and report back.

They look like that because their threshold power is literally double yours.

Thats strange, When I train alone I can average the same speeds what there doing in the peleton (pro) well before the racing starts (usually after 50-70 miles). (Thats alone). That is why I find drafting in a group not too be all that difficult at all. There are some stages when the peleton isn't even averaging 20MPH (drafting) for significant amounts of the stage.

You have too state your reasons, so I can object, or it shows lack of knowledge.

actually, you are the person showing a lack of knowledge here.
Since you train with power, let's see some power profiles data from you.
My HR data is flat-out amazing, but I don't have the massive wattage to back it up... so even though my heart can take large loads, I am showing up to a gun fight with a paring knife.
So far, several of the people who have posted in this thread are known around here for their race results and their wattage capabilities. As a matter of fact, you could look them up yourself if you'd like a base of reference.
Riding without a number pinned on and without a finish-line-camera means nothing, even if it was with strong cyclists... in all likelihood, a group ride probably has about a 30% in common with a race and 70% NOT in common with a race.

also regarding your "lack of knowledge" comment, several VERY strong cyclists have already posted in this thread, including forum members who do actually get contracts in the mail....

so -
wattage is the language of the land -
put up or shut up.

I'm just here for the popcorn...

to be clear - you very well may be a stunningly strong cyclist.
but if you haven't pinned on a number and entered a few actual-honest-to-god-races you and your assumptions are laughable.

I still think I could hold my own, regardless. I've seen the speeds what they average in peletons from 0-70 Miles on some stages & sometimes, its nothing to shout about.

I train faster than them speeds.

Being drafted at them speeds. Thats a completely different scenario.

I'm at 25%.

This all started by gregf83 saying... A race is significantly more intense than training.

Then I said...

If racing is significantly more intense than your training, you need to look at your training more closely. Make training hard, race easy.

You have too state your reasons, so I can object, or it shows lack of knowledge.


I still think I could hold my own, regardless.

well, if those are "your reasons", I'm gonna chuckle and go have a nice training ride.
enjoy your "pro.ness"

Tell us more about your average speedz.

The fact that your argument hinges on average speed is proof enough that you really have no idea.

I find training (alone) to be hard.

Its drafting when racing that is the easy part.

But thats just me. If your finding the hard going in a race at 23MPH, Its time too go home & start training at 24-30MPH. You will have figured it out by the time the next 23MPH race comes back around.

Anyway, back to the original question: My suggestion is for more intervals. I've found that the 2 and 3 minute intervals in Chris Carmichael's Time Crunched Cyclist Program have really helped. It's counterintuitive (although I'm sure someone can explain the mechanism) but the more you do these short intervals, the more endurance you have at the suprathreshold (I've also heard it called power endurance and sweetspot) HR range you describe above.

Check the interval workout sticky in the RBR subforum. Lots of good (and painful) stuff in there.

Anyway, back to the original question: My suggestion is for more intervals. I've found that the 2 and 3 minute intervals in Chris Carmichael's Time Crunched Cyclist Program have really helped. It's counterintuitive (although I'm sure someone can explain the mechanism) but the more you do these short intervals, the more endurance you have at the suprathreshold (I've also heard it called power endurance and sweetspot) HR range you describe above.

Check the interval workout sticky in the RBR subforum. Lots of good (and painful) stuff in there.
Thanks!

And then a few of these lazy guys come to the front and hold 40 for the last kilometer and then the fun begins. And the sprinters hardly do anything! Only a few seconds . . .

I think the best average for a TdF stage is around 30. Average. And power goes up as the cube of the speed. Yeah, I might be able to hold the wheel of a pro with a HR of 115. Maybe for a while. I did once get my butt kicked by a pro in a pass-top sprint. My little memorable moment - he smiled at me. Couraggio, folks. That's the ticket. Show what ya got, whether it's enough or not.

I just had half a apple. Yum.

as an example, I attacked three times in my race on saturday (cat4, lumpy 6mile circuit course)
the first time I didn't get away.
the next two times I left the pack and went up the road at high speed, (32mph launch , the other time was 35mph launch and bridge)... both times the attack speeds were sustained 28 - 30 mph. Both attacks got pulled back in around five minutes....

if average numbers are going to be used, the numbers that matter are the ones when people start pushing on the pedals. I couldn't stay away for ten minutes while sustaining +28 mph in a cat4 field...

Nice training ride?... Ohh boy...

Can't remember the last time having one of them, but then again, at least the racing wouldn't be too difficult.

power numbers (which you claim to have?) or shut up.
I put in some wicked attacks in a real-live race on saturday and wasn't nearly fast enough.
Workouts = damaging your body
Rest = body getting stronger

this is where I am getting stronger. do try to keep up?

But thats just me. If your finding the hard going in a race at 23MPH, Its time too go home & start training at 24-30MPH. You will have figured it out by the time the next 23MPH race comes back around.

I don't find it hard to race at 23mph. In fact I don't find it too hard to ride alone at 23mph. But my last race finished with an average speed of 31.4mph, with corners and resultant deceleration/acceleration.

Power numbers! You post yours I'll post mine ;) We'll see who is faster.

I don't find it hard to race at 23mph. In fact I don't find it too hard to ride alone at 23mph. But my last race finished with an average speed of 31.4mph, with corners and resultant deceleration/acceleration.

Power numbers! You post yours I'll post mine ;) We'll see who is faster.

Haven't you read his posts? He raced with ex cat 2's and found it easy sitting in the pack. Thus he is clearly faster than a collegiate ass kicker and aspiring pro... ;)

Haven't you read his posts? He raced with ex cat 2's and found it easy sitting in the pack. Thus he is clearly faster than a collegiate ass kicker and aspiring pro... ;)

Who happens to be a Cat 1...

I'm still adamant, if I maintain my strength levels & increase training miles, I could hang.

Seems like people are starting to get past themselves. Going off on all sorts of different tangents in racing.

I'm still adamant, if I maintain my strength levels & increase training miles, I could hang.

Post power numbers or your claims are still entirely invalidated.

I don't doubt that you could hang when the pros are cruising along during a flat stage in the middle of a 3 week tour. But they would drop you like a rock at their whim. That is not debatable.

ZeCanon, here is his graph. Proof.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee303/ivanhoe_martin/graph.jpg

Now shut the hell up. You too, Mike.

I don't doubt that you could hang when the pros are cruising along during a flat stage in the middle of a 3 week tour. But they would drop you like a rock at their whim. That is not debatable.

Ya beat me to it. I could hang with them too at that point (for a little while). Back when I was a youngster, I was pretty fast (locally), but when the domestic pros showed up, we would get strung out single file, hanging on for dear life in a "paceline" until we snapped, realizing that we weren't really fast afterall. And these guys kicking our butt were a level or 2 down from the TdF racers.

Watching racing on TV, and noticing how fast they're going at selected points in the race is not reflective of the true nature of racing at that level.

I still think I could hold my own, regardless. I've seen the speeds what they average in peletons from 0-70 Miles on some stages & sometimes, its nothing to shout about.

I train faster than them speeds.

Being drafted at them speeds. Thats a completely different scenario.

I'm at 25%.

Can you give a specific example? I am curious to take a look at the terrain of a stage you are referencing.

Appart from anything else - what would be the point of "hanging in the pack" of a pro-peleton on the flat?

You're not going to win a sprint, you couldn't act as a domestique (going backwards and forwards to the team car as required), you couldn't chase, lead out or do anything useful... so why on earth would you be there?

I think I too could sit in on a TdF flat stage, but could certainly not do the above for anyone and could not do so over a 3 week period of 200km+ race days.

There is a reason they put 20,000km/year into their legs.

Thats strange, When I train alone I can average the same speeds what there doing in the peleton (pro) well before the racing starts (usually after 50-70 miles). (Thats alone). That is why I find drafting in a group not too be all that difficult at all. There are some stages when the peleton isn't even averaging 20MPH (drafting) for significant amounts of the stage.

Fail

Fail

more like complete bull.

I'm not belittling a pro peleton BTW. People seem to jump on me quite quick, guys I've never seen before in fact?.


Appart from anything else - what would be the point of "hanging in the pack" of a pro-peleton on the flat?

Well that is exactly what I've been referring too all along. "hanging in the pack" isn't demanding at all, in fact being toed or drafted is one of the easiest things I find when looking at the overall scheme of things for what I do to improve athletic performance. My core/ab workout routine is far more intense than being drafted, period. Plyometrics place more stress on my body & CNS than being drafted etc etc.


You're not going to win a sprint, you couldn't act as a domestique (going backwards and forwards to the team car as required), you couldn't chase, lead out or do anything useful... so why on earth would you be there?

I wouldn't. That is the whole point. People aren't reading what I write.


I think I too could sit in on a TdF flat stage, but could certainly not do the above for anyone and could not do so over a 3 week period of 200km+ race days.

Exactly. I reckon a number of guys on this board could hang too. You not gonna hear me tell you any different. God, where not parting oceans here. I think if your an accomplished cyclist training sustainable lactate threshold over long periods of time and you can deal with the pain, anyone could hang.


There is a reason they put 20,000km/year into their legs.

Hence what I said all along. For me personally, it would be counter productive for me to do that at this time.

Impossible is Nothing.



There is a reason they put 20,000km/year into their legs.

But also realise. Guys like Armstrong & Cancellara, that is not all there doing. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they have reduced the amount of miles there doing each year to concentrate on different training principals.

I don't know what that terminology means. I suppose it's some kind of variation of the zones around the LT.

You will never get a true HR reading of your LT. The only way to do it is to do a 40 minute TT. 40 because that's the amount of time you can technically stay in that zone before giving up the ghost. The rule of thumb for training in that zone is then 40 minutes total. You can recover, eat 200 calories, and maybe hit a bit more than that. If you're finding that you can go 50 minutes at LT then you're probably not at LT.

20 mins of VO2 max is good. It takes a while for your body get to VO2max despite your HR reading. Give it a minute before you count your actual minutes at VO2max.

The easiest way to determine your max HR is to go out and perform a max effort.

Warm up an hour, over an easy ride, perform a couple of moderately difficult intervals lasting about two minutes each, go to your favorite hill and start to climb it at a pace that you know you cannot maintain to the top, At the bottom of a climb, say "I am going to intentionally blow up before I reach the top." Doing a drill like this is as close to what your true max HR will be as anything you can determine.

MHR only does one thing. It tells you how much more your LT can improve. :D