Living Car Free - Spill Baby Spill

On his NPR call-in show this morning, Tom Ashcroft asked if the offshore oil rig disaster will be "a Three Mile Island moment."

One caller to the show asked if he should boycott BP gas stations to protest the spill. I wanted to yell to the radio, "Boycott all gas stations! If you really want to make a difference, drive less--a lot less--or not at all!"

What do you think? Will anything ever make Americans think about the impact of their car dependence and oil addiction? ...Oil wars...environmental disaster...pirates...traffic fatalities...urban sprawl.... Will anything make us think about the consequences?

Look at the new shiny i-thingy.

Answer: No.

We are much better at blaming others than ourselves.

Nope. The only way people will stop driving is if you make it directly inconvenient to drive. Higher gas prices and environmental disasters won't work (just another chance for people to get fired up about the infrastructure); it has to be something like outrageous measures required to drive a car or way less parking lots. Unfortunately, none of those methods will be allowed in the US anytime soon.

On the upside. Did you hear about that new Toyota? $49 a month!?! That's the greatest deal I've ever heard!! (not)

We're all part of the system that causes this. I'm not sure we can stop it, nor am I sure that we can opt out of it.

I don't recall any great uproar about Exxon Valdez spilling oil. Sure the media talked about it and how bad it was but there was no talk about using our cars less or not at all. I just stopped buying fuel from Exxon. To this day I've only bought fuel from them about eight times.

This spill might destroy the entire fishing industry in the Gulf Coast. Expect shrimp to cost more (at least the domestic variety). Red Fish will cease to be sold. The Ridley Turtle species will probably become extinct. Brown Pelicans might die off due to eating contaminated fish.

The Fish & Game Commission will probably need to cease many seafood harvests until they can do an inventory. Even after that they might end commercial fishing for years while waiting for the fisheries to replenish.

All of this trouble because I once was a car driver. Sure I've changed my tune but I was one of those who wanted to drive everywhere. Had there been electric cars available twenty-five years ago at a competitive price I might have gotten one.

I wonder what would happen if every environmentalist in the USA called their congressmen and said to end all offshore drilling on each coast. How many people would that be? Millions of people contacted their congressmen to say not to support the banker bailout bill yet they passed it with many votes to spare. It was reported that the calls against it were at least 100 to 1 and as high as 1000 to 1.

Maybe prayer is the best thing we can do as individuals. It might work better than calling congressmen since they don't listen to their constituents. My prayer would be that all of humanity gains wisdom in every area of life. Wisdom brings better judgement and leaves open the door to possibilities whereas people with fixed ideas never change their minds.

Not only the wildlife and fishing industries, but tourism as well.

An image that sticks in my mind is that last summer I spent a day on the Mississippi Gulf shores and took a trip out to Ship Island. Dolphins surfed the boat's wake, Pelican's roosted on the markers on either side of us, and seagulls drafted the boat snacking on popcorn thrown by the passengers. Rather idyllic, and I suspect that if I took the same trip, none of this would happen today.

Sadly, as proven by the Citizen's United case, our government is the finest that money can buy. All candidates are drinking at the corporate trough. People are being paid for wrongheaded thinking.

As you suggested, prayer may be necessary and direct action and living right may be the only things we can do no matter how inneffective.

I would at least like to see the administration say that they were wrong to reopen offshore drilling on the east coast, and "undo" whatever they did a few weeks ago. (Talk about lousy timing!)

However, stopping offshore drilling in the US doesn't accomplish much. We just export our oil spills to other countries. For example, it was said that in Nigeria they have spills equivalent to Exxon-Valdez every year.

The only effective way to curtail oil disasters is to reduce demand for oil in our own country. It's easy to blame Exxon or BP, but those countries are only doing what the people want them to do. which is supply us with limitless quantities of cheap oil--no questions asked.

The Silence is deafening from Drilling Advocate "Drill Baby Drill" Sarah Palin. Anyone hear any words of wisdom from her on how she proposes to cope with this disaster? At any other time she would be popping off nonstop.

There is one good side to opening up drilling and the disaster which happened last week.

Normally, richer countries tend to export environmental degradation to poorer countries. There are some great examples around deforestation where richer countries seek to keep their forests and buy timber from poor countries which need the money.

When you have natural disasters and policies that keep the benefits and problems of your economic strategies close to home, you stop exporting the negative effects and start dealing with reality. Think of it as "buying locally": you tend to get a whole lot more involved and aware of the complete lifecycle of that product.

My bet is that if you have a few oil spills in waters close to home, you will pretty soon realize you need to stop drilling for oil and seek other solutions.

Michael Brown, speaking on Fox News, has claimed that the Obama administration intentionally delayed repsponding to the spill because they secretely oppose off-shore drilling and believe a massive ecological disaster will strengthen the hand of environmentalists.

Fox News, I am told, is the number one TV news source for Americans.

The vast majority of individuals will continue to opt for personal convenience over what's good for the environment, at least until the point it has nearly choked them to death.

Greenpeace, I think it was, had a great poster after the Exxon Valdese spill. It showed the reviled captain of the ship, and underneath his picture it said: "It wasn't his driving that caused this disaster - it was yours".

Humans are dirty and need to clean up. Humans are lazy and need to learn to take care of what they have. Above all, many humans are greedy.

It always seems like a race to do things faster, make things easier and sell at all costs - but for every disposible convenience we manufacture and use, there is a price or consequence that has been, is being and will be paid. The consequences have been adding up over time and have been eroding us. (http://buildfutureenergy.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/how-many-environmental-disasters-does-it-take-to-screw-a-lightbulb-in-a-humans-brain/)

Michael Brown, speaking on Fox News, has claimed that the Obama administration intentionally delayed repsponding to the spill because they secretely oppose off-shore drilling and believe a massive ecological disaster will strengthen the hand of environmentalists.

Fox News, I am told, is the number one TV news source for Americans.

But Rush claims the explosion is the work of environmentalists.

Probably both in collusion, and BP is just an innocent company struggling to make a profit. ;)

Most petroleum is used to generate electricity, fertilizer, petrochemicals which includes much of your clothing and bicycles.

There is something about the automobile which makes it irresistable to most people, not just Americans. David Byrne in his book Bicyle Diaries, observed that in Istanbul, a city that is not really driveable, pedestrians and bicycles are almost nonexistant. People would rather be stuck , immobile in traffic, rather than be seen walking. I know an immigrant in France who feels that she and her husband must have a new car when they return to Morrocco, because their family has already seen their old car. There are only a few places in the so-called developed world, like Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Portland, and some univerisity towns where bicycles are accepted as a serious form of transportation.

For a rather dystopian vision of how all this might play out, read James H. Kunstler's The Long Emergency.

I haven't driven for a year, but I heat my house with oil, and have ridden in airplanes, trains, buses and other people's cars, all of which are powered by oil.

I haven't driven for a year, but I heat my house with oil, and have ridden in airplanes, trains, buses and other people's cars, all of which are powered by oil.

And therein lies the problem for me. Yes, I'm getting rid of my car. But I live in a 100-year-old, 2100sqft rowhouse heated by natural gas, and I use electricity that is produced mostly by burning fossil fuels. I can keep my thermostat at 58 in the winter, unplug appliances, and turn off lights, but at the end of the day, I am still dependent on Big Oil. Until I can afford to install solar panels on my house, or the electric company offers more than 10% total energy from wind/solar energy, I'm stuck where I am. The infrastructure has to change.

And therein lies the problem for me. Yes, I'm getting rid of my car. But I live in a 100-year-old, 2100sqft rowhouse heated by natural gas, and I use electricity that is produced mostly by burning fossil fuels. I can keep my thermostat at 58 in the winter, unplug appliances, and turn off lights, but at the end of the day, I am still dependent on Big Oil. Until I can afford to install solar panels on my house, or the electric company offers more than 10% total energy from wind/solar energy, I'm stuck where I am. The infrastructure has to change.

I don't see this. There's a big difference between needing a resource/using it sparingly and driving a Hummer to work, The first step is not to rid ourselves of oil or even Big Oil. The challenge is to stop wasting a valuable resource.

@Roody: Great topic! @Miami: Exactly! Frankly, I recently read the "memo" concerning the potential of a disaster was sent in 2004. Let the blame game begin.


I don't listen to Rush, Fox, Glen Beck, Hannity (right or left)--usually I read local news online and I love going to the BBC. I read different news medias and somewhere is always the truth.

What most people don't know: a news outlet sees hundreds of stories a day and pictures. They can select, chop, delete, from the stories. Many stories are cut for size and teehee for "content." You really have to read a lot of different articles to get a clearer understanding of the truth.

Regarding oil: Pres. Obama apparently wants to work on America's foreign oil dependency. Yaay! Pres. Obama wants to drill internally: Boo! It really doesn't matter because the partisan bickering will render Pres. Obama powerless: it has gotten personal and the factions against him will spend more time ensuring his failure, crippling his administrative efforts and breaking his knees. I forsee his administration will be blamed for every crisis as America continues to decline. The restructuring of America seems to be halted by continous efforts to ensure Pres. Obama's failure. In other words, it is now more about him than it is about America. The BIG LIE marketing schemes used are becoming effective because most people get their news from ONE news source. For example: socialism. This is the new buzz word. When in fact, when the police are called to your home they do not ask you to show a W-2. Most of us (workers) pay into a pot. The money in this pot pays for EVERYONE including those that do not pay. Further, our legislators make hefty pay checks and get quite nice health insurance most of are not privy too. If you want less government: start with yourself and QUIT working for it! What percentage of Americans work in government? What percentage benefit from government? What states receive the most in federal funding? What states contribute the most financially to the federal government but receive less?

Because of our selfish human instinct and our pervasive entitlement issues:

We WILL continue to tear up the ecosystem, buy HUMMER SUV's, litter uncontrollably, build condos (Miami) that will not be inhabited, tear of wetlands, screw up the ocean, mess up the atmosphere and pollute pollute pollute until we become largely extinct.


We are killing our selves. Environmental suicide.

@Roody: Great topic! @Miami: Exactly! Frankly, I recently read the "memo" concerning the potential of a disaster was sent in 2004. Let the blame game begin.


I don't listen to Rush, Fox, Glen Beck, Hannity (right or left)--usually I read local news online and I love going to the BBC. I read different news medias and somewhere is always the truth.

What most people don't know: a news outlet sees hundreds of stories a day and pictures. They can select, chop, delete, from the stories. Many stories are cut for size and teehee for "content." You really have to read a lot of different articles to get a clearer understanding of the truth.

Regarding oil: Pres. Obama apparently wants to work on America's foreign oil dependency. Yaay! Pres. Obama wants to drill internally: Boo! It really doesn't matter because the partisan bickering will render Pres. Obama powerless: it has gotten personal and the factions against him will spend more time ensuring his failure, crippling his administrative efforts and breaking his knees. I forsee his administration will be blamed for every crisis as America continues to decline. The restructuring of America seems to be halted by continous efforts to ensure Pres. Obama's failure. In other words, it is now more about him than it is about America. The BIG LIE marketing schemes used are becoming effective because most people get their news from ONE news source. For example: socialism. This is the new buzz word. When in fact, when the police are called to your home they do not ask you to show a W-2. Most of us (workers) pay into a pot. The money in this pot pays for EVERYONE including those that do not pay. Further, our legislators make hefty pay checks and get quite nice health insurance most of are not privy too. If you want less government: start with yourself and QUIT working for it! What percentage of Americans work in government? What percentage benefit from government? What states receive the most in federal funding? What states contribute the most financially to the federal government but receive less?

Because of our selfish human instinct and our pervasive entitlement issues:

We WILL continue to tear up the ecosystem, buy HUMMER SUV's, litter uncontrollably, build condos (Miami) that will not be inhabited, tear of wetlands, screw up the ocean, mess up the atmosphere and pollute pollute pollute until we become largely extinct.


We are killing our selves. Environmental suicide.I agree with some of this, but didn't see much in the way of proposals for a solution. Any ideas?

Don't know the answer, but at the risk of depressing everyone further, you might want to read this.
http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/bzflh/why_do_they_keep_referring_to_this_as_an_oil/c0pcz5d
I sure hope the "hood" they hope to have fitted by Thursday works.:(

Warning, reddit has been dog slow today.

On his NPR call-in show this morning, Tom Ashcroft asked if the offshore oil rig disaster will be "a Three Mile Island moment."


I'm watching this closely and you hear very little on the oil hitting shore?? What's going on and why is it taking forever for the disaster to happen? I think there's a coverup going on here.

As someone said before, the price of seafood is going to get more expensive but I'm sure we'll find a way to import elseware. The question is with all these chemicals they are dumping into the water to disolve the oil, do you really want to eat fish from the Gulf??

Will anything ever make Americans think about the impact of their car dependence and oil addiction?

Your generation has tons of people who think of themselves as too old to change, or too insignificant too change, or...

My generation is full of folks who grew up thinking the environment was seriously important and want to get this society back into a healthier relationship with the planet...

So society can change even when individuals do not.

The answer is we aren't likely to change. Just in the last decade we have had 5 domestic coal mining disasters killing 68 people directly. There has been no attempt at slowing down coal mining. Look at Centralia PA. and you will see that disasters alone will not change much as far as the direction we as a society are heading.

People have moved back to New Orleans and the conditions that created the disaster there have never changed. The city is still lower than lake Pontchartrain and is basically a big depression waiting to be filled with water from the lake or the ocean, which ever comes first. And now there are no berrier islands if and when the next storm hits. But we will rebuild even in a place people shouldn't be living and sooner or later disaster will hit again.

Humans will always gravitate to what is easier. Crops that grow faster or fish farms that produce more fish or even micro waves to cook faster and cell phones to communicate easier. People aren't likely to turn back the clock and aren't likely to see this as a turning point. As someone already pointed out we can only do what we personally can do and see how things turn out. We are a minority for a reason, the majority doesn't see things as we do.

On his NPR call-in show this morning, Tom Ashcroft asked if the offshore oil rig disaster will be "a Three Mile Island moment."

One caller to the show asked if he should boycott BP gas stations to protest the spill. I wanted to yell to the radio, "Boycott all gas stations! If you really want to make a difference, drive less--a lot less--or not at all!"

What do you think? Will anything ever make Americans think about the impact of their car dependence and oil addiction? ...Oil wars...environmental disaster...pirates...traffic fatalities...urban sprawl.... Will anything make us think about the consequences?

Nope! Most Americans have the attention span equivalent to the average house cat. (and even that is pushing it). The environment, their neighbors, nothing matters to them other than their own convenience.

Also, I would like to point out that we may not be drilling that much in the Gulf, but that isn't stopping other countries from doing so and they are doing so quite aggressively. This is one of the dirty little secrets that the press and both flavors of politician do not want you to know.

Furthermore, environmentalists have this idyllic view that we could just walk away and stop using oil completely. The truth of the matter is even if we switch to other forms of power we are still going to need petroleum as there is nothing else better and more durable for metal to metal lubrication. why is this significant? How else are we to lubricate all the "green" power generation technology? also, most of the plastics used for computers (and "green" technology has a heavy reliance on computer automation control) are most easily produced from petroleum. Sure you can get a lot back from recycling obsolete equipment, but it's not as good as virgin stuff.

I do agree with your statement of driving less. :thumb: If more people would do so we can at the very least lessen the dependence.

We are a minority for a reason, the majority doesn't see things as we do.I agree with many of your points. But things and attitudes do change. I think the barriers for choosing alternatives to oil for example are becoming less so, because people who sell and develop those alternatives recognize and acknowledge the "gravitate to what's easier" principle all too well. What was a bunch of long-haired hippies freaking out a decade ago can today be considered mainstream activity.

A couple of years ago I wanted to switch my electricity supplier company from fossile fuel burner to wind electricity. That would not have been possible in the 1970s or 1980s, and it would have been unlikely and probably too costly even in the 1990s. Now? We have a website that shows current list price for every single electricity company that caters for the private consumer market. I chose the cheapest wind electricity utility and authorised them to take care of the necessary paperwork for me. Two days later, my electricity comes from a windmill.

--J

Nope! Most Americans have the attention span equivalent to the average house cat. (and even that is pushing it).I'm not saying this doesn't apply elsewhere too, but why do you hate cats? :D

I'm not saying this doesn't apply elsewhere too, but why do you hate cats? :D


I love Cats.. Pull!!! :roflmao2:;) All kidding aside, I have two myself as well as a dog.

Your generation has tons of ...

My generation is full of ...

I'm glad we're avoiding wild generalizations. ;)

The truth of the matter is even if we switch to other forms of power we are still going to need petroleum as there is nothing else better and more durable for metal to metal lubrication. why is this significant? How else are we to lubricate all the "green" power generation technology? also, most of the plastics used for computers (and "green" technology has a heavy reliance on computer automation control) are most easily produced from petroleum. Sure you can get a lot back from recycling obsolete equipment, but it's not as good as virgin stuff.
Oil is used in manufacturing, transportation of all forms, energy generation and more. Even the cleanest, greenest power plant was constructed using some fossil fuel production. The computer you're using right now was made using plenty of petroleum products, either in the manufacturing process or for some of the parts themselves. We don't yet have a workable alternative to petroleum and, while one is possible, it will take plenty of time and effort to make it happen.

Until that day, the solution is not to turn off the tap, so to speak, but to use this resource as wisely and as carefully as possible.

Most petroleum is used to generate electricity, fertilizer, petrochemicals which includes much of your clothing and bicycles.

Wrong. Most petroleum (oil) is used in transportation. Coal and natural gas are usually used for the applications that you mentioned.

I'm watching this closely and you hear very little on the oil hitting shore?? What's going on and why is it taking forever for the disaster to happen? I think there's a coverup going on here.

As someone said before, the price of seafood is going to get more expensive but I'm sure we'll find a way to import elseware. The question is with all these chemicals they are dumping into the water to disolve the oil, do you really want to eat fish from the Gulf??

Good points. I think the winds have been keeping the slick out to sea for now. There is speculation that it might even blow around the Florida peninsula and end up hitting the beaches on the Atlantic coast. My impression is that (as of this morning) the scientists can't predict which shorelines will be devastated.

As for the chemicals (dispersants, which are basically a form of detergents). One marine biologist said the oil slick is more deasly for creatures that breathe air--birds, sea mammals, turtles. The dispersants are probably more toxic for fish and crustaceans and sea plants. My bet is that they go with the dispersants because they create fewer disturbing images like the birds coated with oil. That is much better PR for BP and the oil lobbyists.

Your generation has tons of people who think of themselves as too old to change, or too insignificant too change, or...

My generation is full of folks who grew up thinking the environment was seriously important and want to get this society back into a healthier relationship with the planet...

So society can change even when individuals do not.

I hate it when you play the generation card. My generation started Earth Day and the entire environmental movement in the first place, before you were born. Millions of us are still in there fighting the good fight. There's plenty of credit--and blame--to go around.

Oil is used in manufacturing, transportation of all forms, energy generation and more. Even the cleanest, greenest power plant was constructed using some fossil fuel production. The computer you're using right now was made using plenty of petroleum products, either in the manufacturing process or for some of the parts themselves. We don't yet have a workable alternative to petroleum and, while one is possible, it will take plenty of time and effort to make it happen.

Until that day, the solution is not to turn off the tap, so to speak, but to use this resource as wisely and as carefully as possible.

The tragedy is that we aren't making any serious efforts to develop alternatives to fossil fuels. And as long as we have cheap subsidized oil, why should we?

Obviously, businesses and individuals are going to make decisions that are in their short-term individual interests.

It takes scientists and policy makers to think long term. We must make economic and government policy changes that make oil much more expensive, and that make alternatives much cheaper.

Let's look at the non-fuel uses of petroleum, including but not limited to lubricants, plastics, electronic components, synthetic fibres, fertilizers and more. It's possible to go to natural fibres only, but we do not have viable alternatives for some of the other uses.

Let's look at the non-fuel uses of petroleum, including but not limited to lubricants, plastics, electronic components, synthetic fibres, fertilizers and more. It's possible to go to natural fibres only, but we do not have viable alternatives for some of the other uses.

Many non-fuel uses can be fulfilled using oils derived from plant sources. The best thing would be to conserve and use it sparingly for things that are really necessary. Example, water in plastic bottles is a huge waste of resources on many levels most if not all of them involving oil.

Aaron :)

The answer is we aren't likely to change. Just in the last decade we have had 5 domestic coal mining disasters killing 68 people directly. There has been no attempt at slowing down coal mining. Look at Centralia PA. and you will see that disasters alone will not change much as far as the direction we as a society are heading.

People have moved back to New Orleans and the conditions that created the disaster there have never changed. The city is still lower than lake Pontchartrain and is basically a big depression waiting to be filled with water from the lake or the ocean, which ever comes first. And now there are no berrier islands if and when the next storm hits. But we will rebuild even in a place people shouldn't be living and sooner or later disaster will hit again.

Humans will always gravitate to what is easier. Crops that grow faster or fish farms that produce more fish or even micro waves to cook faster and cell phones to communicate easier. People aren't likely to turn back the clock and aren't likely to see this as a turning point. As someone already pointed out we can only do what we personally can do and see how things turn out. We are a minority for a reason, the majority doesn't see things as we do.
I disagree with you about change. Change will happen. The question is whether you will be ready to make the required moves yourself or have something else make it for you. People aren't likely to turn back the clock, as you say,... and that's probably a good thing. But change will happen.

I hate it when you play the generation card. My generation started Earth Day and the entire environmental movement in the first place, before you were born. Millions of us are still in there fighting the good fight. There's plenty of credit--and blame--to go around.

Neither generation really has a claim. The beginnings of the modern environmental movement were in the 19th Century and early 20th century with people like John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt. I seriously wouldn't be surprised if there weren't even a few environmentalists in ancient Rome.

Seems like people within every generation span a range of sensibilities. As a hippie growing up, seemed like everyone my age was earth-friendly and environmentally sensitive. I'm still trying to figure out where all those SUV drivers and captains of industry that are my age came from.

I suspect that cerewa will discover as he grows older that there are many of his peers who, if given a choice of a coal-powered iPad or no iPad at all, will choose coal every time. Thus the story will continue to grind on.

As someone already pointed out we can only do what we personally can do and see how things turn out. We are a minority for a reason, the majority doesn't see things as we do.

I think a shift in thinking is on its way. Natural disasters will play only a small part in it. Young people not sharing all of their grandparents' views about the earth will play a part in it. Rising oil prices will play a part in it.

But all of these factors together will still take a long time to change society.

Michael Brown, speaking on Fox News, has claimed that the Obama administration intentionally delayed repsponding to the spill because they secretely oppose off-shore drilling and believe a massive ecological disaster will strengthen the hand of environmentalists.

Fox News, I am told, is the number one TV news source for Americans.

Fox News isn't even news anymore; it's a platform for the Repub naysayers. You know, the Limbaugh/Boehner/Cantor crowd, who complain about everything that's put forth, without offering a single concrete thing to replace it.

I agree with many of your points. But things and attitudes do change. I think the barriers for choosing alternatives to oil for example are becoming less so, because people who sell and develop those alternatives recognize and acknowledge the "gravitate to what's easier" principle all too well. What was a bunch of long-haired hippies freaking out a decade ago can today be considered mainstream activity.

A couple of years ago I wanted to switch my electricity supplier company from fossile fuel burner to wind electricity. That would not have been possible in the 1970s or 1980s, and it would have been unlikely and probably too costly even in the 1990s. Now? We have a website that shows current list price for every single electricity company that caters for the private consumer market. I chose the cheapest wind electricity utility and authorised them to take care of the necessary paperwork for me. Two days later, my electricity comes from a windmill.

--J

I understand what you are saying because I live within an hour of the largest wind generating farm in the State. That wasn't the question that was asked. The question is will this oil spill reverse the current trend in more drilling and I said no I don't think so and explained why. The point isn't will it ever change but rather will people change of their own free will or will they be forced to. I think they will not change of their own free will. If you take a look at China's and India's sudden energy needs and manufacturing direction you will see what direction things are going. And that direction isn't in the direction of fewer oil discovery attempts. The two most populated countries in the World have entered the automotive age full throttle and the western world is still in love with their cars.

So I still say the answer to the question is, " not very likely" and as far as society changing mainstreem entertainment still uses the term "Tree Hugger" in prime time and comedy. Things haven't changed all that much.

I live in a smallish town in Montana. We have a local TV station that often has polls on their web site. Usually no more than a couple of hundred people participate in them. The latest poll is about offshore oil drilling. I voted to end offshore drilling. If just a few of the people here would take the poll it would be interesting when the results are announced.

When you go to the site (and if you also vote to abolish offshore drilling) check to see the number of respondents before you vote. If there are suddenly five-hundred votes then they will suspect something is up. So, try to view the results before you vote. Lets just add enough people to make the "Should be banned" answer the top choice without flooding the poll thus making the results look suspicious.

The polls are usually seen on all of the web sites pages in the left column. Just keep clicking links until you find a page with the poll (5/6/2010).

Here is the page with the poll after I voted. Perhaps it will not show the results when you first land on it.

http://www.beartoothnbc.com/ktvh/html/polls2.php?voteid=3&pollid=367&poll=Vote

At the time I voted the results were

No need for change. 40 votes (57.97%)
Should be reduced. 7 votes (10.14%)
Should be banned. 19 votes (27.54%)
Not sure. 3 votes (4.35%)

I live in a smallish town in Montana. We have a local TV station that often has polls on their web site. Usually no more than a couple of hundred people participate in them. The latest poll is about offshore oil drilling. I voted to end offshore drilling. If just a few of the people here would take the poll it would be interesting when the results are announced.

When you go to the site (and if you also vote to abolish offshore drilling) check to see the number of respondents before you vote. If there are suddenly five-hundred votes then they will suspect something is up. So, try to view the results before you vote. Lets just add enough people to make the "Should be banned" answer the top choice without flooding the poll thus making the results look suspicious.

The polls are usually seen on all of the web sites pages in the left column. Just keep clicking links until you find a page with the poll (5/6/2010).

Here is the page with the poll after I voted. Perhaps it will not show the results when you first land on it.

http://www.beartoothnbc.com/ktvh/html/polls2.php?voteid=3&pollid=367&poll=Vote

At the time I voted the results were

No need for change. 40 votes (57.97%)
Should be reduced. 7 votes (10.14%)
Should be banned. 19 votes (27.54%)
Not sure. 3 votes (4.35%)

You don't think they will notice a bunch of out of state ISPs do you? :lol: Maybe I could pretend I was voting for my Sister, she lives in Montana.

What do you think? Will anything ever make Americans think about the impact of their car dependence and oil addiction? ...Oil wars...environmental disaster...pirates...traffic fatalities...urban sprawl.... Will anything make us think about the consequences?
Think about 'the consequences'.... no. The average person is completely decoupled from the gulf oil disaster, in their minds at least. Just ask any non-cyclist you know just how much personal responsibility they take for the disaster as a consequence of their personal dependence on oil and their response will tell you exactly how out of touch they are with the reality of their situation.

When the peak-oil decline starts to hit, our society will resemble a crystal-meth head forced to go cold turkey. The 'doomer' scenarios are not as unrealistic/unlikely as many want to believe.

When the peak-oil decline starts to hit, our society will resemble a crystal-meth head forced to go cold turkey. The 'doomer' scenarios are not as unrealistic/unlikely as many want to believe.

It's not like the oil will disappear immediately, it will be a slow decline, most notable for climbing gas prices .

But it also means that large corporations will be raiding our food supply(corn, wheat etc) for fuels, electric cars will get more respect no matter what their source of energy, coal natural gas etc., we could even see production of gas from coal, and who knows even coal burning steam cars. It will certainly be interesting.

Bikes may become more popular, but we will have to modify the infrastructure to make it much more bike friendly.

It's not like the oil will disappear immediately, it will be a slow decline, most notable for climbing gas prices .

But it also means that large corporations will be raiding our food supply(corn, wheat etc) for fuels, electric cars will get more respect no matter what their source of energy, coal natural gas etc., we could even see production of gas from coal, and who knows even coal burning steam cars. It will certainly be interesting.

Bikes may become more popular, but we will have to modify the infrastructure to make it much more bike friendly.

The deep water oil rig that caused the oil spill was a direct result of declining oil supplies. If allowed, oil companies will drill in riskier and riskier locations. They are trying to meet consumer demand for cheap oil, but already oil is likely to remain more expensive than it used to be--for the rest of time.

People and their governments need to decide whether the inevitable transition to non-carbon energy will be rationally planned for, or whether it will be a pell-mell descent into chaos. We will find out how smart we as a species really are within the next couple decades.

You don't think they will notice a bunch of out of state ISPs do you? :lol: Maybe I could pretend I was voting for my Sister, she lives in Montana.

Nobody will check for out of state IPs if the total number of votes remains under 200.

At 2:30 PM MT 5/7/2010 we need just seventeen more votes of "Should Be Banned" to equal "No Need For Change".