Tandem Cycling - Rear Pannier Rack

I apologize for two things:
1) I didn't search extensively before posting, so someone may have gone after this issue before
2)SO far I ask a lot here and contribute much less. If anyone has any aerospace questions, I'll be ALL OVER them :thumb:

Weefay and I bought our Supremo co-pilot this spring with the intention of riding Portland OR to San Fransisco CA this September. We're planning on going halfway between self supported and credit card touring: i.e. Bringing a tent and sleeping bags etc, but planning on buying food cooked rather than bringing along cooking items/foodstuffs.

With that in mind I'm looking for a rack that I can get to fit on the Supremo with the intended gear weight in the 25 lb range and an absolute max of 40 lbs. (3.5 lb tent, 7 lbs for both sleeping bags and mats) (team weight pre-diet is 290)

I haven't the slightest clue what to look for/where to start with racks and Panniers, besides knowing that Ortlieb makes some pretty awesome (and waterproof) stuff. We're looking to get everything as out of the wind as possible and to keep the weight down. I wouldn't say price is not a variable, but we did just spend $9k on a bike, so I guess it really isn't (we're the go-fast type)

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

-Jason

I'm planning a similar trip. Looked around some, seem to have settled on a Tubus rack:
http://www.tubus.com/en/rear-carriers

I think we'll get a Cargo because of the width of the top. We'll sometimes want to carry just a rack pack on top of the rack, for mountain rides and the like, and rack packs need a wide mounting area. That'll also make it easier to secure a tent or whatever on top. We'll probably take a very light daypack, stuff our tent and similarly shaped objects into it, and tie it down to the rack top. Tubus also makes a special rack for disc brake equipped bikes.

The Ortlieb online store also sells Tubus. We'll get Ortlieb panniers, too. Our plan is to only have the rear panniers, a frame bag, and other small stuff scattered about on the bike. No bar bag or front rack. We will simply not take stuff that doesn't fit. We're going to purchase a new sleep system from Feathered Friends, like this:
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Bed.Acc/Groundsheets.html

We currently use an earlier version of this but their new stuff is lighter and more comfortable. We love the system, but you have to want to sleep close.

Have you ever looked into Big Agnes sleeping bags? The singles are nice, but we actually got a 2-person bag that is both warm and fantastically comfortable. My friends who backpack have had nothing but praise for all their products, so while we've yet to use it, I'd recommend it.

edit: Do you think the Tubus Vega would fit with the wide rear spacing on a tandem? Also, how does one figure out of a particular set of panniers will work with a particular rack (i.e. would the Ortlieb panniers work with the Vega)

For more information about panniers, see crazyguyonabike reviews and adventure cycling association forums "gear".

The first thing you have to decide about panniers is whether you want totally waterproof (never put in anything wet) or pre-organized (figure out what to put in each of the pockets that someone else thought would be right for you).

The top panniers in those two categories are Ortlieb (Germany) and Arkel (Canada). I've no experience with Ortlieb, but have only heard good things about them (from the sort of people who don't want pockets but do want waterproof). Likewise the Arkels (which we have) are unimpeachable in terms of construction quality, and very well designed (if you like pockets).

I got a good price on the panniers from bikebagshop.com. (they will special order other items not on their website that are from manufacturers they carry, and STILL give a more-than-competitive price). Many folks have recommended Wayne at TheTouringStore.com. I think that's where we got our rack. Both of these places sell racks, and are quite knowledgeable about them.

Racks recommended and carried by these two have weight ratings, and you should be able to determine which rack will meet your needs. Panniers, on the other hand, are rated by volume. In the Arkel line, you're probably OK with the GT-54s, possibly adding a set of GT18s up front (front low-riders increase stability, rear, not so much).

Team weight should not be a factor in selecting a rack, unless you intend to ride on the rack rather than the saddle ;-)

Tubus racks are great, but pricey. Blackburn racks are also pretty good for the money, and can be found used for really low prices. The Expedition rack is the best one from Blackburn.

I just put team weight so as to point out that I don't think we'll be overloading the rear wheel, which is one of TG's favorite (sarcasm drip starts here) 'everyday racing wheels' from Rolf.

Looking into it some more, it seems there might be a clearance issue with the Tubus support arm that bolts to the NDS seatstay and the Travel Agent used with V-brakes. The OP has calipers, so no problem for them. Some say it makes a Tubus unworkable, some say you can just bend the arm to get it around the Travel Agent. Some say you can get around it by installing a Problem Solvers Travel Agent (inline). Anyone?

Have you ever looked into Big Agnes sleeping bags? The singles are nice, but we actually got a 2-person bag that is both warm and fantastically comfortable. My friends who backpack have had nothing but praise for all their products, so while we've yet to use it, I'd recommend it.

edit: Do you think the Tubus Vega would fit with the wide rear spacing on a tandem? Also, how does one figure out of a particular set of panniers will work with a particular rack (i.e. would the Ortlieb panniers work with the Vega)Yes, but the FF system is two ounces less than a BA down bag, including the Therma-Rests. Will pack smaller, too.

The Tubus racks are steel tubing, and you just bend them out a bit to fit a tandem. Apparently that's no problem.

For the last question, you should probably ask Ortlieb.

Tubus racks are great, but pricey. Blackburn racks are also pretty good for the money, and can be found used for really low prices. The Expedition rack is the best one from Blackburn.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41s4dXI%2BFOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Ditto. Blackburn Expedition EX-1 rack is well built and sturdy.


The Blackburn EX-1 Expedition Rack is the créme de la créme of Blackburn's bike racks. What sets this rack apart from the rest is the center strut which enables this rack to carry a heavier load but also adds rigidity to the rack. It also fits both 700c and 26" bikes and comes with Blackburn's legendary quality and lifetime warranty.

Features:

Fits 26"- and 700c-wheeled frames
3/8"center strut maximizes load control
Air craft quality alloy construction for uncompromising strength
Fits virtually all adult sizes of road, mountain, and hybrid bikes
703g
rear stay allows for up to 2.75" tire width
carry up to 40lbs




http://www.artscyclery.com/descpage-32027.html

Thanks. With that in mind, I looked at what racks I thought were best, and ended up with the Tubus Logo and Ortlieb Rear Roller Plus. As for the FF system, it sounds nice, what sort of temperature is it rated down to (won't matter this trip, but future ones could be colder).

Do you think the Tubus Vega would fit with the wide rear spacing on a tandem?
Most of them have enough flex to spread the extra distance. It is not uncommon for touring singles to have 135 mm rear spacing. So it isn't all that much of a stretch. Now if you were riding a Santana, you'd have to get your rack from them. But you're not.

Also, how does one figure out of a particular set of panniers will work with a particular rack (i.e. would the Ortlieb panniers work with the Vega)
Both the Ortliebs and the Arkels have mounts that adjust to avoid colliding with a cross member of a rack. Others - it varies. If you get a set with adjustable mounts you shouldn't have to worry about compatibility.

...Now if you were riding a Santana, you'd have to get your rack from them.

Not so. I bought a used Santana that came with a (forgot the brand) rack. Very much like a Blackburn aluminium rack. Great for a trunk bag, but I would not use with loaded panniers. The bike's stoker seat-post clamp is also unusual in that it has a—for lack of a better term—"hanger" for the rack stays to avoid the issues with the cantilevers. I don't doubt that a Tubus would fit just as easily. The Old Man Mountain solution isn't my cup of tea.

Thanks. With that in mind, I looked at what racks I thought were best, and ended up with the Tubus Logo and Ortlieb Rear Roller Plus. As for the FF system, it sounds nice, what sort of temperature is it rated down to (won't matter this trip, but future ones could be colder).I think we'll go with the Roller Plus, too.

You'll have to look at the FF website. They have several bags that work with their several groundsheet systems. For summer touring, I'd get a lighter bag than the weight I quoted, but we'll be using the system for long September backpacks in the mountains, too. I have to say that having down under you as well as on top of you is more cozy, but other than cozy, the down under you is pretty useless and it costs money and weighs something.

... it seems there might be a clearance issue with the Tubus support arm that bolts to the NDS seatstay and the Travel Agent used with V-brakes... Anyone?

Yes the travel agent can get in the way. The solution that worked for our tandem was to order extra long (350 mm) stays and bend around the travel agent. Got them from the The Touring Store. The stays are solid aluminum rod and so not a problem to bend.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3321/4584784131_308689f370.jpg

U da man, GC. That looks like a Cargo. Happy?

U da man, GC. That looks like a Cargo. Happy?
Cargo? - yes. Happy? - yes. Can't beat the strength to weight ratio of the Cargo. Make sure you use Loctite (the 242 blue) on the screws mounting a rack. I never needed it on other bike parts, but I learned the hard way with the rack.

I was considering Old Man Mountain racks for our Co-motion, but now I see that a lot of people here prefer other systems. Is it just the look or does the OMM system have any real inconveniences of that I should know of? Could you please develop little bit...

Thanks,

Pavel

We've had no problems spreading a Blackburn Expedition to fit the 160mm spacing of our Santanas. Have used them on several.

I was considering Old Man Mountain racks for our Co-motion, but now I see that a lot of people here prefer other systems. Is it just the look or does the OMM system have any real inconveniences of that I should know of? Could you please develop little bit...

Thanks,

Pavel

I'm using an OMM AC Lowrider (now discontinued, but design picked up by Arkel) on the front. I think I wound up putting a Tubus Cargo on the rear. No complaints with either one.

Since we live pretty close to Germany, Tubus and Ortlieb are the main brands around here. Ortliebs are not only good because they are so waterproof, but I've also found that their attachment system is hard to beat - it is very versatile and fits any rack well. As for the rack stays and a travel agent, this can be a problem, but Tubus offer a lot of different stays in different shapes, and some stays from other manufacturers also work on their racks, so I've found a pair of stays that had the right bends we needed for every bike I've put a rack on so far, without needing to add any bends myself.

I really like Surly Nice Racks. Commuter, tourer and tandem are all mounted with these. Orlieb panniers, bar bag and dry duffles are standard too. Ortieb is waterproof, yes, but also durable and nicely engineered. I would vote Blackburn for a lighter and less expensive. The Surly is like the big Tubus racks, probably overbuilt for your needs, but totally indestructible.

OMM rack on the canti bosses worked going across the US on our tandem with Ortlieb front and rear bags. They're worth the money. Zero problems with any of them.
Now the rack is off and we run a lighter one just to carry a rack bag for jackets and food.

This is the seat clamp with the hanger do-hickie that I had mentioned earlier:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Savaje/Odd%20Stuff/Hanger.jpg

That's a really cool rack hanger! I've never seen one of those before. Anyone know more about them, where to purchase, etc.?

I wish I could tell you more. It came on the bike when we bought it (used). I didn't know what it really was until I decided to put the rack on. I'm fairly certain the bike was put together at Gear-To-Go Tandems in NY state: http://www.gtgtandems.com/ and that that piece was put on it by them. The bike was bought and outfitted for loaded touring, though, I wouldn't put loaded panniers on that particular rack (original owners had a trailer for it). It does fine for a trunk bag.

Dimension make those seat-post clamp rear rack mounts. Dimension is distributed by QBP (or may even be a sub-division of QBP, I'm not sure), and so they can be ordered by your local bike store. Electra also make a similar version, and I've see one other variant, but am not sure of the manufacturer.

Warning, if you live in Europe then the 31.8mm clamp diameter size is available through some local stores and web stores, but it seems that the 34.9mm size is not imported into the continent, and so you have to do an expensive trans-Atlantic order for it, or wait until you visit North America. Once I got over there, I picked up a couple of each size because I knew I would find uses for them on our bikes and those of friends.

With one of these, plus the Tubus QR-mounting kit for the lower rack mounts, then a rack can be added to almost any bike frame without the need for any built-in mounting points. The rack is then supported at points that you can trust (rear axle and seat-post clamp) rather than resorting to p-clamps or other dubious solutions. It wouldn't be an ideal solution to use when going on a fully-loaded tour with, because you then probably want the frame geometry and stiffness to be made to carry a load in that position, but it will be fine for anything short of that. But if you're just using this to move the point of the mounting holes then I would have no worries with it and would treat it the same as if the rack was mounted more traditionally.

snip... It wouldn't be an ideal solution to use when going on a fully-loaded tour with, because you then probably want the frame geometry and stiffness to be made to carry a load in that position, but it will be fine for anything short of that. But if you're just using this to move the point of the mounting holes then I would have no worries with it and would treat it the same as if the rack was mounted more traditionally.


What, exactly, are you saying here? I'm not quite getting the gist of it. Are you saying that the seat clamp hanger would not be a good idea for a (fully) loaded rack? I'm not getting the "frame geometry and stiffness" part. What does frame geometry and stiffness have to do with the rack or it's attachment points? I'm not being confrontational, I'm just asking.

My intent with this bike is to do some loaded touring and I have concerns about the strength of that seat clamp hanger with 25 or 30 pounds on it. As you noted—it's not like you can find them in any 'ol bike shop should the clamp fail.

Recently did my first un-supported "mini" tour. I've had a B.O.B. trailer for years I've been wanting to put to the test touring, however it had only been used for grocery shopping previously. If you are touring alone it would be a good option since you will be carrying camping items as well. If you were just going to hotel it and wanted to keep things as light as possible, panniers would definitely be a better choice. If you are riding with a group then the trailer makes drafting impossible behind you and that's why you always see bikes with trailers in the back of the group. Nobody likes to ride behind that wildly swinging fiberglass pole either, for some reason. I've been told that it can be more difficult to pull the trailer, but I don't believe that after our tour. We were struggling from behind on many of the hills, but I think that accurately reflecting our current fitness level compared to the rest of the group. The only thing to be careful about is that you can easily carry more than you need in the trailer so you need to be extra careful not to take non essential items because they fit in the trailer, unless you don't care about taking a couple extra days. The trailer comes bundled with a bag that looks like it is manufactured by Ortlieb. Just another option to consider.

What, exactly, are you saying here? I'm not quite getting the gist of it. Are you saying that the seat clamp hanger would not be a good idea for a (fully) loaded rack? I'm not getting the "frame geometry and stiffness" part. What does frame geometry and stiffness have to do with the rack or it's attachment points? I'm not being confrontational, I'm just asking.

My intent with this bike is to do some loaded touring and I have concerns about the strength of that seat clamp hanger with 25 or 30 pounds on it. As you noted—it's not like you can find them in any 'ol bike shop should the clamp fail.

Let me explain a little more. If you're using the seat-post clamp attachment to connect the upper rack stays to a frame that already has the mounting points, but which are inaccessible due to the rear brake, then there is nothing to worry about - it is perfect and should be able to handle whatever you would expect it to when using the normal mounting position. However, some people might want to use this to mount a rack on a bike that was never designed to have a rack. The latter situation would be fine if you are just putting a light load on there, but if you put a heavy load on such a bike then it may not handle very well.

If a bike is not made to have weight in that position then the back of the bike may feel like it is wagging its tail, especially if you stand up to climb, and the bags might not mount far enough behind the pedals, so your heel clips them on the way around. A bike designed for a rack and having a load on the back will have the rear wheel mounted further back, which mostly solves these issues, and will have different seat and head tube angles, making steering and handling the bike with a lot of weight on much easier. On a tandem bike, the weight distribution and handling will probably not be much of a problem because the riders' weight will dominate the pannier weight regardless, so it is less likely to make a noticeable difference.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was a bit confused there.

Possum: Have/am considering Bob, but don't know if I want the added complexity, length and extra twelve pounds that a Bob adds. I rode with a fella on a single towing a Bob in the Appalachians and he liked his well enough but noted that it got a little squirrely and went "hunting" on fast downhills. What has your experience been?

Mine was stable on fast downhills. I'm not sure if this was a result of being more cautious on downhills or not. I felt it was less complicated in some ways as well. If you stop somewhere and just want to go riding without all your gear, you can just pull two pins and park the BOB in a hotel somewhere for the day. The only negatives I experienced were as follows:

1. You are a lousy draft for other riders as mentioned in previous post.
2. The trailer itself does add more weight than panniers would.
3. It's more difficult to swap stuff out of the bag than if you have panniers and some other bags attached to the bike. You can pretty quickly strap some clothing under the bungee cords though.

On the positive side:

1. Greater capacity for gear, if you really need to carry more gear.
2. The handling on the bike feels better to me than with panniers.
3. BOB trailer holds the bike up if you jack knife it when you come to a stop.

I have been using Bruce Gordon CRMo racks on our Fat Chance Mountain Tandem for over twenty years. They are a rigid extension of the bike and do not move under load.http://www.bgcycles.com/racks
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The panniers are from Robert Beckman Designs. They were designed in conjunction with the Gordon Racks. www.robertbeckmandesigns.com (http://www.bikeforums.net/www.robertbeckmandesigns.com)
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Today Gordon and Beckman each make their own rack/pannier combo unaffiliated with each other. Both make products of the highest quality and i can attest to their durability and functionality over more than 25 years of use on single bikes as well as 20 years on the tandem.