Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Why Oh Why?!

So im sitting looking through ebay, online shops, even a wholesale catalogue and all I see is everything wheel wise being 32 friggin holes!!! Why? I mean even the DH mountain hubs are 32 hole, BMX hubs are 32h... Have we come that far in new spoke materials that someone busting down a hill and hitting some pretty good jumps on the way, only needs 32 spokes? The only consistant 36h+ hubs and or rims I see are for bike polo... Why that and not mountain biking? Just really annoying, I'm not small and am rough on wheels so I look towards 36 spokes for my wheels... Or am I just missing something? Even sheldon brown says 36 rear is best... anyway... :notamused:

buy these...

http://www.nybonecollectors.com/image/13179936.jpg



144 spokes of sheer awesomeness...

Hmmm...Industry standards, perhaps. You know, save money by deleting four spokes.

Though, I thought the mountain side had a bunch of rad, straight-pull offerings.

well, for BMX and MTB, which can be harder on wheels, have smaller wheels, which are stronger than bigger ones.
That's why you don't see higher spoke counts for MTB and BMX.

For road applications, there's really no need for more than 36h because the spokes, rims and hubs are that good, even for tandems.
If you're that concerned, go for a 26" MTB conversion.

buy these...

http://www.nybonecollectors.com/image/13179936.jpg



144 spokes of sheer awesomeness...

Is this real? [I have a hunch that some low rider fixie some where has these.....]

Must have been a pain to lace.

Must have been a pain to lace.

I'm betting it's machine laced.

the new fixie trend: instead of color matching your bike, match your spokes to your BCD

I believe Harris Cycles has 36 hole stuff

anyway,is it such a big deal on wheels that are evenly dished?

Must have been a pain to lace.

not really... they're just straight spokes nothing special...



this is the new hotness...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3082/2558093984_2abd85f89b.jpg

Between my wife and I, we have 4 wheelsets that are 36.

You may not be looking hard enough. VeloMine and Bell's Bike Shop both sell plenty of 36-hole sets.

So im sitting looking through ebay, online shops, even a wholesale catalogue and all I see is everything wheel wise being 32 friggin holes!!! Why? I mean even the DH mountain hubs are 32 hole, BMX hubs are 32h... Have we come that far in new spoke materials that someone busting down a hill and hitting some pretty good jumps on the way, only needs 32 spokes? The only consistant 36h+ hubs and or rims I see are for bike polo... Why that and not mountain biking? Just really annoying, I'm not small and am rough on wheels so I look towards 36 spokes for my wheels... Or am I just missing something? Even sheldon brown says 36 rear is best... anyway... :notamused:

When you read Sheldon Brown, you have to consider his age and his retro-perspective. Spokes and rims are much better now than they used to be. 36 spoke wheels, though still available, are basically unnecessary for most people. In fact, it sort of rediculous that most SSFG hubs and wheelsets have so many spokes. Given the high flange hubs, deep profile rims and the lack of dish the characterize many track wheels, most people could get away with 20-28 spoke wheels with no problem. There are some advantages to having fewer spokes, but the problem with fewer spokes is that you need a better build. With 32-36 spokes you have enough redundancy that the wheel is robust to uneven and improper tension levels. This is why so many low-end wheelsets have 32 or more spokes...the factories can cheap out on building it properly with less risk of the wheel failing. When you get into fewer spokes, the wheel will only be strong, stiff, and resilient when it is built with care and attention. A 20-28 spoke wheel that is well-built with quality DB spokes is going to be stronger and stay true longer than a poorly built 36 spoke wheel with ****ty SG spokes.

I want 3 up front and 20 in the rear.

20/24 no problem.

20/24 no problem.

+1.

not a (road) bike in house with more than 28h drilling, most 20/24. 175-180lbs and 6-8k miles/yr. that said, XC bikes are all 32h.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/old_fool/bikeparts/DSCN3249.jpg
The left one has 48 spokes, the middle one and the right one have 36. I laced all three wheels. You can definitely find 36H, and even 40H and 48H components, without any major trouble. I assume you are able to lace your own wheels.

I assume you are able to lace your own wheels.

Here we go again..

A few examples:
36H Miche Primato rear hub (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HU302F00-Miche+Primato+Track+Rear+Hub.aspx)
36H Shimano Deore XT front hub (nicely discbrake compatible) (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HU401B06-Shimano+Deore+Xt+M756+Disc+Hub.aspx) and a nice Alex TD17 disc-specific rim (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/RI308B13-Alex+Td17+Rim.aspx) to go with it.
Surly's new singlespeed 36H rear hub (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HU408B07-Surly+New+1-Speed+Rear+Hub.aspx)

etc. etc. etc. and this only in one online store (albeit, my favorite online store :) ) I really have not even nearly scratched the surface of 36H parts available at JensonUSA. Same goes for any better equipped bikeparts store, such as cambriabike (http://www.cambriabike.com/) or Harris Cyclery (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/index.html).

Here's another excellent online store, with a full page of 36H rear hubs (http://www.bikeparts.com/productsearch.asp?categoryName=Hubs&selType=3&manufacturerName=&selManufacturer=&selCategory=1403&strSearchString=rear%2036h&displayName=36-Hole%20Rear)

and a full page of 36H front hubs (http://www.bikeparts.com/productsearch.asp?categoryName=Hubs&selType=3&manufacturerName=&selManufacturer=&selCategory=1403&strSearchString=front%2036h&displayName=36-Hole%20Front)

etc. etc.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/old_fool/bikeparts/DSCN3249.jpg
The left one has 48 spokes, the middle one and the right one have 36. I laced all three wheels.

http://www.tieracksblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/clapping-gif.gif

Hey Scrod, did you finish high school?

Dude, shut up. You know damn well I'm just messing around.

Upset much?

Not at all.

How did you get that I was "upset" by me saying very simply that I'm just joking around with you? I think you may have trouble with comprehension.

When you read Sheldon Brown, you have to consider his age and his retro-perspective. Spokes and rims are much better now than they used to be. 36 spoke wheels, though still available, are basically unnecessary for most people. In fact, it sort of rediculous that most SSFG hubs and wheelsets have so many spokes. Given the high flange hubs, deep profile rims and the lack of dish the characterize many track wheels, most people could get away with 20-28 spoke wheels with no problem. There are some advantages to having fewer spokes, but the problem with fewer spokes is that you need a better build. With 32-36 spokes you have enough redundancy that the wheel is robust to uneven and improper tension levels. This is why so many low-end wheelsets have 32 or more spokes...the factories can cheap out on building it properly with less risk of the wheel failing. When you get into fewer spokes, the wheel will only be strong, stiff, and resilient when it is built with care and attention. A 20-28 spoke wheel that is well-built with quality DB spokes is going to be stronger and stay true longer than a poorly built 36 spoke wheel with ****ty SG spokes.


Have you noticed how many threads whose primary concern is cheap on this board? "I need a cheap wheelset." "I need a cheap bike." "I need cheap women." cheap, cheap, cheap.

Thus the preoccupation with 36 spoke wheels.

...most people could get away with 20-28 spoke wheels with no problem...

Any suggestions for a build such as this?

"I need cheap women."

with 36+ holes?

Any suggestions for a build such as this?

kinlin xr-300 rim. hub/spokes of your choice.

Heh, I've got a 36/36 set and a 16/20 set. Gotta admit, I love the look of the 16/20 spoke wheels.

Can someone clarify what it means when people say only 16 spokes support the weight on 32h wheels?

not at all.

How did you get that i was "upset" by me saying very simply that i'm just joking around with you? I think you may have trouble with comprehension.

nom nom >:f

Can someone clarify what it means when people say only 16 spokes support the weight on 32h wheels?

Never heard it said that way before, but I'm guessing they're referring to the fact that the wheel supports weight by standing on the bottom spokes, rather than hanging from the top ones, as you'd intuitively think.

Obviously it's not simply standing on them, since every spoke is in static tension, the bottom spokes just lose some, which has the same effect as compression, but without buckling the spoke.

By far the majority of load is carried by a few spokes at the botom of the wheel, not the full bottom 16 in a 32 spoke wheel.

Never heard it said that way before, but I'm guessing they're referring to the fact that the wheel supports weight by standing on the bottom spokes, rather than hanging from the top ones, as you'd intuitively think.

Obviously it's not simply standing on them, since every spoke is in static tension, the bottom spokes just lose some, which has the same effect as compression, but without buckling the spoke.

By far the majority of load is carried by a few spokes at the botom of the wheel, not the full bottom 16 in a 32 spoke wheel.

Not quite.

The weight is not on the bottom spokes, but along the top 180 degrees of the wheel.

Spokes have no strength in compression, but a lot in tension.

The top spokes transfer the load up to the rim, the bottom spokes (all of them actually) are holding the rim in a stiff strong shape, so it is the rim that is then transfering the load to the ground.

Not quite.

The weight is not on the bottom spokes, but along the top 180 degrees of the wheel.

Spokes have no strength in compression, but a lot in tension.

The top spokes transfer the load up to the rim, the bottom spokes (all of them actually) are holding the rim in a stiff strong shape, so it is the rim that is then transfering the load to the ground.

Other way around, but I'm referring to the interpretation given in The Bicycle Wheel; top spokes prestress the bottom spokes in order to GIVE them strength in compression, same way steel reinforcing bar can let concrete members take loads that are effectively tension loads. Only the bottom few spokes see significant changes in tension when the wheel is loaded. Either way, pretty sure it's a matter of semantics because it's the balance of forces that are important, and without the other 16 spokes the wheel isn't going to be a wheel.

DH wheels don't have to be bomb proof when you have 8/9 inches of travel to soak up the bumps also.

Other way around, but I'm referring to the interpretation given in The Bicycle Wheel; top spokes prestress the bottom spokes in order to GIVE them strength in compression, same way steel reinforcing bar can let concrete members take loads that are effectively tension loads. Only the bottom few spokes see significant changes in tension when the wheel is loaded. Either way, pretty sure it's a matter of semantics because it's the balance of forces that are important, and without the other 16 spokes the wheel isn't going to be a wheel.

There is no force being pushed down on the bottom spokes. the strength comes from the top and the shape of the rim.

Some of the strongest wheels may have very few spokes:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/old_fool/bikeparts/WHEL-25.jpg
This Shimano MTB wheelset is known to be one of the strongest in existence, but notice the special lacing pattern, hubs and rim.
Review with info: Shimano WH-R540 (http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_174284_2490crx.aspx)

Those are road wheels.

These are Shimano mtb. wheels: http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/wheels/mountain_wheels/product.image.+media+images+cycling+products+actionsports+WH+WH-M975_512x384_v1_m56577569830637454_dot_jpg.bm.512.384.gif

A lot of the time, the FG riders are young, and just starting out in the world, careerwise, or not even a career yet, just a job or in school, so yeah, I can understand a fixation on cheap pricing.


Have you noticed how many threads whose primary concern is cheap on this board? "I need a cheap wheelset." "I need a cheap bike." "I need cheap women." cheap, cheap, cheap.

Thus the preoccupation with 36 spoke wheels.

"I need a cheap wheelset."

Buy nice or buy twice.

Those are road wheels.
Do you mean the WH-R540? I see MTB people using them, and mine are 26".

Do you mean the WH-R540? I see MTB people using them, and mine are 26".

Can you find the Shimano link for these mountain bike WH-R540 wheels? I've looked on their website and just see their WH-Mxxx wheels with the M standing for Mountain; like the R stands for Road.

Are people using these as 29"er wheels? You say yours are 26". Did Shimano stop making them?

Not at all.

How did you get that I was "upset" by me saying very simply that I'm just joking around with you? I think you may have trouble with comprehension.


your Maddy sucks! but only 'cause you stole my vintage headbadge idea. ;0)

:lol: I didn't 'steal' it. I was inspired by it.

You know my Madison rocks!

wow so many posts... ok so, I'm getting a special treat to be able to order some stuff wholesale... Mostly I am gathering parts for 2 wheel sets... 1 is a track set that will see road too (but not a ton) and the other is a polo/busting around set... So as I look in the catalog alls I see is 32h... Even the velocity chukkers are only offered in 32h (this is not a super big distributer mind you). Its just sort of frustrating to see when you have always ridden/ been told 36h is the way to go considering your size... I dont know where I am going with this, I just got off work...

Can you find the Shimano link for these mountain bike WH-R540 wheels? I've looked on their website and just see their WH-Mxxx wheels with the M standing for Mountain; like the R stands for Road.

Are people using these as 29"er wheels? You say yours are 26". Did Shimano stop making them?
So many questions... I only found a link to a few PDFs of exploded views of both the rear and forward wheel. For now.
I've seen several of these wheels IRL, and they were all 26". Online, everywhere I looked, they have been used by MTB guys. That's all just anecdotal, though, so make of it what you will.
I do believe Shimano isn't making them anymore, but I'm not 100% sure.

There is no force being pushed down on the bottom spokes. the strength comes from the top and the shape of the rim.

Only if there ARE no bottom spokes.

"Bicycle Wheel as Prestressed Structure

J. Engrg. Mech. Volume 119, Issue 3, pp. 439-455 (March 1993)

C. J. Burgoyne (http://scitation.aip.org/vsearch/servlet/VerityServlet?KEY=ASCERL&possible1=Burgoyne%2C+C.+J.&possible1zone=author&maxdisp=25&smode=strresults&aqs=true) 1 and R. Dilmaghanian (http://scitation.aip.org/vsearch/servlet/VerityServlet?KEY=ASCERL&possible1=Dilmaghanian%2C+R.&possible1zone=author&maxdisp=25&smode=strresults&aqs=true)2
1Univ. Lect., Engrg. Dept., Univ. of Cambridge, Trumpington St., Cambridge CB2 1PZ, United Kingdom
2Formerly, Steel Construction Inst.

Issue Date: March 1993

Bicycle wheels achieve their structural efficiency by making use of prestressing in three ways. Tests show that the bottom spokes carry virtually all the load by compressive forces, which reduce the tensile prestress set up in the spokes when the wheel was made. The test results are compared with an analysis that considers the spokes as a disk that can carry force in one direction only. This is shown to give good agreement, as does an analysis that considers the rim as a straight beam on an elastic foundation. The behavior of the wheel with an inflated tire is also considered, and it is shown that good comparisons with theory are obtained if the reaction from the road is assumed to be distributed over a specific length of the rim. Prestressing is shown to be important also in the mechanism by which the various forces are transmitted through the tire from the road to the rim.

©1993 American Society of Civil Engineers"

There was a "Reply" to that article, published 2 years later, but my institution doesn't have access to that journal. Can you access it? Maybe there's some interesting counter argument.


Only if there ARE no bottom spokes.

"Bicycle Wheel as Prestressed Structure

J. Engrg. Mech. Volume 119, Issue 3, pp. 439-455 (March 1993)

C. J. Burgoyne (http://scitation.aip.org/vsearch/servlet/VerityServlet?KEY=ASCERL&possible1=Burgoyne%2C+C.+J.&possible1zone=author&maxdisp=25&smode=strresults&aqs=true) 1 and R. Dilmaghanian (http://scitation.aip.org/vsearch/servlet/VerityServlet?KEY=ASCERL&possible1=Dilmaghanian%2C+R.&possible1zone=author&maxdisp=25&smode=strresults&aqs=true)2
1Univ. Lect., Engrg. Dept., Univ. of Cambridge, Trumpington St., Cambridge CB2 1PZ, United Kingdom
2Formerly, Steel Construction Inst.

Issue Date: March 1993

Bicycle wheels achieve their structural efficiency by making use of prestressing in three ways. Tests show that the bottom spokes carry virtually all the load by compressive forces, which reduce the tensile prestress set up in the spokes when the wheel was made. The test results are compared with an analysis that considers the spokes as a disk that can carry force in one direction only. This is shown to give good agreement, as does an analysis that considers the rim as a straight beam on an elastic foundation. The behavior of the wheel with an inflated tire is also considered, and it is shown that good comparisons with theory are obtained if the reaction from the road is assumed to be distributed over a specific length of the rim. Prestressing is shown to be important also in the mechanism by which the various forces are transmitted through the tire from the road to the rim.

©1993 American Society of Civil Engineers"

There was a "Reply" to that article, published 2 years later, but my institution doesn't have access to that journal. Can you access it? Maybe there's some interesting counter argument.


There was a "Reply" to that article, published 2 years later, but my institution doesn't have access to that journal. Can you access it? Maybe there's some interesting counter argument.

I might be able to, but to be honest I'm WAY too lazy to go through the motions. So instead, here's another one that's kind of cool: http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~fine/FE2002/Projects/Hartz.pdf (http://www.rose-hulman.edu/%7Efine/FE2002/Projects/Hartz.pdf)

Check out the exaggerated deformation and strain diagrams on pages 8 and 9 of the PDF. There's barely any tension increase in the top half of the wheel, but significant reduction at the bottom because of localized deformation.

I'm not really pushing the point, though. However you describe it, the wheel supports a load through a change in the net internal force, and a bottom spoke in compression is equivalent to one in reduced tension.

Can't we all just get along???

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wvoLtwni0kc/R13FdLyfTkI/AAAAAAAAMiI/J1b2lXLkRq0/s400/nerd-fight_thumb.jpg