Advocacy & Safety - Strange poll - who is a menace on the roads

Here we have one of the more conservative papers around polling it's readers. Feel free to vote.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/globe-online-poll-drive/article1556640/

Surprisingly(or not) cyclists are viewed as second only to cars in terms of danger presented to other users of the road. It seems that tractor trailers are second only to cyclists in terms of danger! - Of course we all know the objective truth, cars and trucks injure and kill far far more people than a person on a bicycle ever could.

I've forgotten the term for it, where one transfers the threat they present to the possible victim. Something like a serial ****** claiming his/her **** victims are to blame for their actions by not protecting themselves from him/her. Apparently a large percentage of Globe and Mail readers subscribe to such a philosophy. :(

I just voted my conscience, that cars are the #1 danger to other road users. Your message reminds me of two things; the 'transfer' you talk about calls a car salesman I used to know to mind. The guy described selling somebody a car at a very excessive interest rate, because the person was financially unsavvy; the car dealer described it as "teaching the customer to pay attention."

But I think the more important issue is about how we assess risk, because the human program has a few bugs in this area.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/dangers.png (http://xkcd.com/369/)

People are mistaking "things that annoy me" with "things that actually threaten me" on that poll. It's the only explanation for bicycles to even appear. In the US, 43000 people die in car accidents every year, 600 or so cyclists are killed by cars every year, and perhaps 5 or 10 at most people are killed by cyclists.

I think you're right, ItsJustMe. Two days ago, I went to the grocery store with a friend, and heard a cyclist collide with a pedestrian on the sidewalk. I didn't see the accident, but when I'd turned, the cyclist was taking off, and the pedestrian was chasing after him. A few other people were talking about how the bike hit the ped dead on, and I had to cringe at the shame. But the woman who'd been hit was annoyed, not hurt. A few weeks ago, a cyclist in my region killed an 80 year old lady who stepped in front of him on the MUP; this made the news nationwide, and caused a thread here ... because it's so unusual for a bike to kill anyone.

So, you seem to have it the nail on the head, about minor annoyance vs actual threat.

People are mistaking "things that annoy me" with "things that actually threaten me" on that poll.No, they aren't. They're just answering the poll as written.

The question is: What's the biggest menace on the road?

and it only gives a few options to choose from.

And in case you're not familiar with all the definitions of the term --

men·ace
1. something that threatens to cause evil, harm, injury, etc.; a threat: Air pollution is a menace to health.
2. a person whose actions, attitudes, or ideas are considered dangerous or harmful: When he gets behind the wheel of a car, he's a real menace.
3. an extremely annoying person.

... they get to pick which one they use. I'm guessing they go for #3, though they may feel that cyclists threaten evil, harm and injury to themselves and go for #1. (Or may feel that being slowed down is evil/harm/injury to themselves, therefore #1 applies.)

"Dennis the Menace" wasn't particularly dangerous, after all.

It seems that tractor trailers are second only to cyclists in terms of danger!

I found that curious, as well, given Tuesday's events near my workplace. (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/05/05/tor-truck-rollover.html)

No, they aren't. They're just answering the poll as written.

The question is: What's the biggest menace on the road?

and it only gives a few options to choose from.

And in case you're not familiar with all the definitions of the term --

men·ace
1. something that threatens to cause evil, harm, injury, etc.; a threat: Air pollution is a menace to health.
2. a person whose actions, attitudes, or ideas are considered dangerous or harmful: When he gets behind the wheel of a car, he's a real menace.
3. an extremely annoying person.

... they get to pick which one they use. I'm guessing they go for #3, though they may feel that cyclists threaten evil, harm and injury to themselves and go for #1. (Or may feel that being slowed down is evil/harm/injury to themselves, therefore #1 applies.)

"Dennis the Menace" wasn't particularly dangerous, after all.

Really, you're going with the tertiary definition as what about quarter of a people are using? I guess there are a certain percentage of people who just misunderstand. Strange considering that trucks and cars aren't just annoying in the context of being a menace. I'm pretty sure the context of the poll refers to the primary definition of a menace. You suspect people are using the secondary definition, but i doubt it. In order to make sense of such an answer in that context it would suppose that one is a menace to oneself - since a cyclist cannot be a true menace to a car or truck - this means the quarter of people who selected cyclist would need to be cyclists themselves. A rather high proportion.

If you're right and respondents are thinking that the word menace is to be taken in the tertiary sense, that cars and trucks are just annoying and not threatening or dangerous, they're probably off their rocker since half of them voted for the car - cyclists are far more annoying than that. ;)

Really, you're going with the tertiary definition as what about quarter of a people are using?I'm going with "Are trucks a menace? nah. Bikes a menace? YES! I had to pass one just this morning! He even yelled at me!"

"Menace" sounds a lot less serious than "dangerous". Again, think Dennis the Menace.

It's all about the wording. The answers would likely be very different had the question been "What's the most dangerous thing on the road?" or "What am I the most afraid of on the road?" or "Which of these makes me fear the most for my life on the road?" -- all of these questions are sort of related, but are likely to get rather different answers.

And the word "menace" is to be taken any way they see fit. Whichever version gives the strongest reaction is likely to be the version they go with -- and different people are likely to go with different versions (and no, this doesn't mean they're "off their rocker".)

I'm going with "Are trucks a menace? nah. Bikes a menace? YES! I had to pass one just this morning! He even yelled at me!"

"Menace" sounds a lot less serious than "dangerous". Again, think Dennis the Menace.

It's all about the wording. The answers would likely be very different had the question been "What's the most dangerous thing on the road?" or "What am I the most afraid of on the road?" or "Which of these makes me fear the most for my life on the road?" -- all of these questions are sort of related, but are likely to get rather different answers.

And the word "menace" is to be taken any way they see fit. Whichever version gives the strongest reaction is likely to be the version they go with -- and different people are likely to go with different versions (and no, this doesn't mean they're "off their rocker".)

So, to you, menace means annoying... got it!

People are mistaking "things that annoy me" with "things that actually threaten me" on that poll. It's the only explanation for bicycles to even appear. In the US, 43000 people die in car accidents every year, 600 or so cyclists are killed by cars every year, and perhaps 5 or 10 at most people are killed by cyclists.

I doubt that even 5 people are killed by cyclists each year.

And the word "menace" is to be taken any way they see fit.

A very fair point. Two different people will have two slightly different meanings for most words. I guess that's one reason why sensationalist newspapers run headlines, like CYCLING: THREAT, OR MENACE?

A few weeks ago, a cyclist in my region killed an 80 year old lady who stepped in front of him on the MUP; this made the news nationwide, and caused a thread here ... because it's so unusual for a bike to kill anyone.


Damn. You mean I could have made the news when I hit a parked car and nearly totaled it with my head?

No, they aren't. They're just answering the poll as written.

The question is: What's the biggest menace on the road?

and it only gives a few options to choose from.

And in case you're not familiar with all the definitions of the term --

men·ace
1. something that threatens to cause evil, harm, injury, etc.; a threat: Air pollution is a menace to health.
2. a person whose actions, attitudes, or ideas are considered dangerous or harmful: When he gets behind the wheel of a car, he's a real menace.
3. an extremely annoying person.

... they get to pick which one they use. I'm guessing they go for #3, though they may feel that cyclists threaten evil, harm and injury to themselves and go for #1. (Or may feel that being slowed down is evil/harm/injury to themselves, therefore #1 applies.)

"Dennis the Menace" wasn't particularly dangerous, after all.

I dunno the British Dennis the Menace of the 1950's and 1960's was quite frankly a psychopath who would think nothing of trying to blow things up and hurt people.

I dunno the British Dennis the Menace of the 1950's and 1960's was quite frankly a psychopath who would think nothing of trying to blow things up and hurt people.No, he wasn't. From Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_the_Menace_%28U.S.%29 --

Dennis Mitchell - a precocious but lovable, freckle-faced five-and-a-half-year-old boy; with a famous blonde cowlick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowlick) and a penchant for mischief. Everywhere he goes, Dennis's wide-eyed curiosity, his well-meaning attempts to help, his innocent, matter-of-fact bluntness and his youthful energy and enthusiastic nature always seem to lead to trouble. He wears a blue/black striped shirt, tennis shoes, and red overalls with pockets that are sometimes filled with slingshots and frogs. He hates carrots and baths, loves root beer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_beer), ketchup, mudpuddles and TV Westerns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerns), and has occasionally been depicted wearing a cowboy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy) costume.

Ultimately, what matters is what the people who did the survey think the word means, and considering that they picked "bicycle" more than anything else, I'm pretty sure that a whole lot were thinking more of "annoying" than actually dangerous.

Oh man a Denis the menace argument is precipitating :D

Maybe you are right dougmc, though perhaps you are just agreeing in a circular way... I still think a lot of the drivers are reassigning the danger they represent and then simply projecting it onto the cyclist as menace . The appereance of a cyclist can be thought of as increasing the sense annoyance in motorists, since the false menace represented by the cyclist is actually an increase in the driver's awareness of the true danger and social responsibility they have forced on themselves by operating a hazardous and violent machine such as the car is. Such responsibility is obviously an annoyance to the motorist, but they won't see it that way... instead they will label the cyclist the real annoyance and scapegoat them.

So yes, when a motorist claims that a cyclist is a menace, either way they are acknowledging the fact that they the motorist are the true menace - in the primary sense on the word. A good percentage of driver's just haven't figured this out yet.

I was taught as a child that "menace = danger".

That's why I voted 'car'.

The mayhem caused by users of the car is unmatched by anything else in our society, short of two wars. And I'm not too sure about the wars.

No, he wasn't. From Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_the_Menace_%28U.S.%29 --

Dennis Mitchell - a precocious but lovable, freckle-faced five-and-a-half-year-old boy; with a famous blonde cowlick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowlick) and a penchant for mischief. Everywhere he goes, Dennis's wide-eyed curiosity, his well-meaning attempts to help, his innocent, matter-of-fact bluntness and his youthful energy and enthusiastic nature always seem to lead to trouble. He wears a blue/black striped shirt, tennis shoes, and red overalls with pockets that are sometimes filled with slingshots and frogs. He hates carrots and baths, loves root beer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_beer), ketchup, mudpuddles and TV Westerns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerns), and has occasionally been depicted wearing a cowboy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy) costume.

Ultimately, what matters is what the people who did the survey think the word means, and considering that they picked "bicycle" more than anything else, I'm pretty sure that a whole lot were thinking more of "annoying" than actually dangerous.


No No the BRITISH Dennis definitely was. I found an old Dennis the Menace annual from around 1956 when I was a kid and he was pure evil, Dennis took pleasure in blowing things up and would laugh when he reduced his father to tears. He also released an alligator from the zoo, in full disregard of the safety of the general public. :lol:

He was still pretty bad in the 70's, (when I was growing up), he'd quite happily kick the living daylights out of Walter Soft, black eyes, concussion etc, but by the 80's and 90's had calmed down to be a close approximation of your version really - a bit naughty but fairly harmless, no fun at all if you ask me.

http://www.bookpalace.com/acatalog/SutherlandDennisSig.jpg


Also the family was known as the Menaces not the Mitchells

No No the BRITISH Dennis definitely was. I found an old Dennis the Menace annual from around 1956 when I was a kid and he was pure evilFair enough -- different guy then. I was referring to the US version.

... and considering that the poll ran in a Canadian site, I'm not sure which idea of "menace" might be more appropriate (and there's no reason that it can't be both.) Either way, based on the poll results, it seems quite likely that many people use the term "menace" to mean annoying rather than actually a physical danger to the person applying the term.

Um, yeah, those menacing bicyclists. Guess I better worry about being mauled to death by chipmunks in my back yard, too.