Classic & Vintage - 3 Speeds Anonymous.....

We'll call this 3 Speeds Anonymous.

I have this urge to turn every bike I find into a 3 speed. I don't know why, I just want to do it to every single one. I just got a Takara 732 that is in good shape and pretty cool the way it is. It has nice barcons and good components. I want to convert it to a 3 speed road bike. I already have a Raleigh Sports and a Raleigh Technium which I have converted. I had another 3 speed which I sold recently.

Anybody else have the same problem? I know there are a few around here that own or have owned many 3 speeds, but do you have this uncontrollable urge to convert every bike?

I've been eyeballing my Raleigh Pro (in serious need of rust repair, and new componentry) as a base for a Faux-Clubman, with a 3 speed trigger, track bars, and a Sturmey 3. I'd consider an S3X for that one.

Yes.

But not just three speeds; all IGH's fascinate me. At the moment I'm playing with a 1951 FM hub that I've installed on a 1958 Raleigh Lenton Grand Prix. In fact, Pennsylvania riders may see it on the road this weekend.

Let's not call it an uncontrollable urge! That would be defeatist.

That sounds like a great idea to me! Clubmans are cool.

I'm toying with the idea of keeping the front derailleur and turning the takara into a 6 speed clubman.

I'm toying with the idea of keeping the front derailleur and turning the takara into a 6 speed clubman.
But you'll need a rear derailleur too, for chain tension; better just go with a rear derailleur and two cogs on the AW (21 and 24 give an especially sweet gear progression).

Guilty as charged, but the larger dilemma for me is whether to convert to a drop-bar or upright bar bike. I find early 70s Raleigh road bikes to make particularly good candidates. I do have a '62 Gran Sport frameset hanging in my basement that has braze ons for a 10-speed set, but it'll likely get the 3- or 4-speed treatment once I've had a chance to build a rear wheel for it.

Neal

I've been tempted to convert my Panasonic into a 3 speed, for a beater bike (paint is all chipped, wheelset is shot, etc). It would fix my one complaint with this bike: cockpit is too long for me, if I did North Road bars. But what's really weird is that my Raleigh actually rides over rough roads better; maybe building up a lightweight Club bike is in my future someday, instead.

I wonder: I tend to be somewhat frugal, and like oddball stuff. I drive a diesel powered stationwagon that pulls over 40mpg under most driving conditions, in a land of V8 gas swillers. The only gas powered "muscle" cars that I really lust after are Slant Six powered. I live in a small house, got rid of cable, and my cell phone is left off most of the time. Maybe I'm a Luddite at heart, and ancient tech works for me? Or maybe there is some allure to that which works, reliably, day in and day out?

Not so much 3 speeds but IGH in general have some sort of weird draw. Don't get me wrong; I've been looking for a Superb in my size for a while now, but I every frame I have I try to decide if I should get a modern IGH and see what I end up with. I haven't done it so far, but I think it will be a summer project!

But you'll need a rear derailleur too, for chain tension; better just go with a rear derailleur and two cogs on the AW (21 and 24 give an especially sweet gear progression).

You can fit 2 cogs on there? Thats brilliant!

I think I see an upgrade to my 3 speed Austro Daimler in the works.

I've got a thing for a road bike w/ drop bars and an IGH. it looks super clean and is very functional.
I've got the IGH bug too...but I'm itchin for a hit of the hard stuff...7 or 8 speed.

as I understand it, the cogs are dished, so if you have them dished away from each other, you have space to run a derailer.

ah, very interesting... cool signature Mickey. ;)

But you'll need a rear derailleur too, for chain tension; better just go with a rear derailleur and two cogs on the AW (21 and 24 give an especially sweet gear progression).

Good point. Have you built one like that before?

Also, I think you're all right about it being about ighs rather than just 3 speeds. Maybe instead of doing a 3 speeds or the two cog route, I could do a 7 or 8 speeds hub. I'm guessing that would be more expensive though.

If you had wingnuts, you wouldn't need to have a derailer with two cogs - you could have a 19 and a 21, or some such, and just move it manually back and forth - it would especially work well if you used something that would take up slack, like a bar end shifter or some such.

Good point. Have you built one like that before?

Also, I think you're all right about it being about ighs rather than just 3 speeds. Maybe instead of doing a 3 speeds or the two cog route, I could do a 7 or 8 speeds hub. I'm guessing that would be more expensive though.

No. I'm torn between my love of originality (in the C&V sense) and originality (in the Frankenbike sense). So while I have a 1963 Raleigh Lenton Sports Convertible, which came with an AW hub with two cogs and a two-speed benelux derailleur, I don't ride it because the gears are all too high for me, and I haven't found a way to reduce them. Also, the bike is a boat anchor. There is a constant temptation to remove the Cyclo/Benelux parts and sell the bike as a regular old Sports... a temptation I have resisted, so far, but... there it is.

I am considering doing the two-cog thing on the Raleigh Lenton Grand Prix that I mentioned above; perhaps even with two chain rings (and a 'suicide shifter!), but first I'm going to ride it a bit with the FM hub.

I have a Shimano Nexus 8 speed hub on my touring bike, and it's great. Really great. I would talk about it more, but it's not C&V; it's a classic Frankenbike.

I'd love that Lenton, if only to snag the parts off of it and stick it all on a 531 frame.

If you had wingnuts, you wouldn't need to have a derailer with two cogs - you could have a 19 and a 21, or some such, and just move it manually back and forth - it would especially work well if you used something that would take up slack, like a bar end shifter or some such.

You lost me. How exactly would a bar end shifter take up slack in the chain?

I have this urge, too. I like my Raleigh Sports, but I can't find studded tires in that size, plus it would be nice to have lighter weight components with standard threading. I'd like to build up a commuter with 700c rims, IGH, fenders, and northroad bars.

I have this urge, too. I like my Raleigh Sports, but I can't find studded tires in that size, plus it would be nice to have lighter weight components with standard threading. I'd like to build up a commuter with 700c rims, IGH, fenders, and northroad bars.

That's pretty much what I had in mind with this Lambert Grand Prix:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4397698261_7b366f17fb_o.jpg
I have to take a photo of it in the springtime sun, I've seen enough snow for a while!

I went with MTB-size wheels, drum brake hubs, dynamo on the front and 5-speed on the rear. I have a chain guard for it (matches the fenders, not the frame, but it's close) but sadly the chain guard and the crank don't get along.

The Lambert frame is good for this application because it has nice forged horizontal dropouts without a derailleur mount or other unnecessary braze-ons (except some cable guides at the BB; I'm using them for the gears and brake cables).

I have this urge, too. I like my Raleigh Sports, but I can't find studded tires in that size, plus it would be nice to have lighter weight components with standard threading. I'd like to build up a commuter with 700c rims, IGH, fenders, and northroad bars.

Like this? (fenders, chainguard and dyno-hub coming soon)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_aQvE2vU5Quo/Syr5KxB1HbI/AAAAAAAADY4/wg8TaJwt3EA/s800/P1020840.JPG

I've been to the edge and then come back. I've converted and deconverted most every bike I've owned to a 3 speed at one time or other. This has been my experience:

A 3 speed hub is pretty heavy. I tried it on some of my lighter bikes like my Motobecane Grand Record and Raleigh Supercourse and the bike felt sluggish. It was like I put a tractor engine into a sports car. When I put a 3 speed hub on my Schwinn Sports Tourer and Motobecane Super Mirage, it felt fine. Those bikes are both heavy bikes and performance was similar to stock.

I tried to run a derailleur on an AW with 2 cogs & a homemade JB welded 5 speed cassette on a splined driver, but I could never get enough chain wrap to keep the chain from skipping under load. Other than the novelty of it, there is really no point in adding a derailleur(s) to a 3 speed. You are defeating the purpose of a clean chainline & bike.

I've been to the edge and then come back. I've converted and deconverted most every bike I've owned to a 3 speed at one time or other. This has been my experience:

A 3 speed hub is pretty heavy. I tried it on some of my lighter bikes like my Motobecane Grand Record and Raleigh Supercourse and the bike felt sluggish. It was like I put a tractor engine into a sports car. When I put a 3 speed hub on my Schwinn Sports Tourer and Motobecane Super Mirage, it felt fine. Those bikes are both heavy bikes and performance was similar to stock.

I tried to run a derailleur on an AW with 2 cogs & a homemade JB welded 5 speed cassette on a splined driver, but I could never get enough chain wrap to keep the chain from skipping under load. Other than the novelty of it, there is really no point in adding a derailleur(s) to a 3 speed. You are defeating the purpose of a clean chainline & bike.

I agree. The simplicity of no derailers or extra chaingrings/cogs is a lot of why I like them.

The AW hubs are solid, no doubt, but they don't seem all THAT heavy to me. How do the new IGH hubs compare? Heavier? Lighter? or the same?

BTW, a fairly active internal-gear hub group is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared_hub_bikes/. Lots of knowledge there, particularly about the latest IGH offerings.

Neal

I agree. The simplicity of no derailers or extra chaingrings/cogs is a lot of why I like them.

The AW hubs are solid, no doubt, but they don't seem all THAT heavy to me. How do the new IGH hubs compare? Heavier? Lighter? or the same?

Yeah, I too agree about the simplicity and the chain line thing.

The thing about AW hubs and weight, I think, is partly a matter of misunderstanding the problem of overgearing. A Raleigh Sports, with its 46T chain ring and 18T cog, feels really heavy. If you change that cog to a 22T, along with the additional 2" of chain that will also be needed, you make the bike a little heavier, but when you're riding it, it will feel much lighter.

The newer IGH's have more gears, both in the sense there are more pieces of metal (gears) inside them, and they offer more speeds ("gears"). They skimp on weight where appropriate, like with an aluminum shell, but they are not light. But the combination of a wide range of gears with the freedom to change to any gear at any time, even stopped, means you can always find a gear that makes your bike feel light and responsive at the speed you're going.

That's pretty much what I had in mind with this Lambert Grand Prix:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4397698261_7b366f17fb_o.jpg
I have to take a photo of it in the springtime sun, I've seen enough snow for a while!

I went with MTB-size wheels, drum brake hubs, dynamo on the front and 5-speed on the rear. I have a chain guard for it (matches the fenders, not the frame, but it's close) but sadly the chain guard and the crank don't get along.

The Lambert frame is good for this application because it has nice forged horizontal dropouts without a derailleur mount or other unnecessary braze-ons (except some cable guides at the BB; I'm using them for the gears and brake cables).


Like this? (fenders, chainguard and dyno-hub coming soon)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_aQvE2vU5Quo/Syr5KxB1HbI/AAAAAAAADY4/wg8TaJwt3EA/s800/P1020840.JPG

Exactly. I've got a lead on a Centurion Mixte that someone halfway converted to a fixie before giving up. It's a 54 cm frame; not sure if that will fit me (I'm 5'11"). Still has the brakes; no stem and bars but that's no big deal:

150482

There's also an old Schwinn Super Sport frame I could pick up relatively cheap.

I have this urge, too. I like my Raleigh Sports, but I can't find studded tires in that size, plus it would be nice to have lighter weight components with standard threading. I'd like to build up a commuter with 700c rims, IGH, fenders, and northroad bars.

Lack of quality tires is the bane of British Sports bikes. I need studs in winter too so I use a roadster with 700c rims and a two speed sachs Duomatic to get me thru the snow. Not light but stable on snow and ice.

150481

A different problem ... and does it deserve mentioning here?

I often want to turn road, hybrid, and mountain bikes into an updated 18 to 24 speed version of an "English Racer". Slap on a Brooks B-66, B-72, or even a B-17. Swap out the original bars for Noth Roads and add comfortable hand grips. Then slap on a pair of fenders and a rear rack. Possibly add on a generator light set and a loud silver bell.

Some of the routes I take have proven to be a little overwhelming for an internally geared 3-speed. However, if I rode flat and level routes, I'd take a 58CM double-butted Reynolds 531 road frame with braze-ons for 2 water bottle cages & rear rack + pump peg, add alloy North Road bars and comfortable "ergo" hand grips & an alloy stem, drop the smaller ring on an alloy cotterless chainwheel, lace a Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub to an alloy rim, put a Brooks B-66 on an alloy seat post with an allen wrench binder bolt, use Dia-Compe 500G side-pull brakes, add SKS commuter fenders, add a Jim Blackbourne rear rack, use Dia-Compe 500G side-pull brakes with a sweet pair of suntour alloy brake levers that I have, and add a Union generator light set. The closest I have gotten to something like this so far was an Atala Tourista (Sachs 3-speed) with 27" wheels (Rigida steel rims), center-pull brakes, and stainless steel fenders.

I'm setting up the frame I built in Tim Sanner's framebuilding class (http://www.sannercycles.com/) as a city bike with a Nexus 8 IGH/coaster brake and a Sturmey-Archer front drum brake.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Sanner%20Framebuilding%20Class/CIMG6498med.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Sanner%20Framebuilding%20Class/CIMG6384med.jpg

^I'm looking forward to seeing the completed bike!

For some reason I'm thinking you have your front wheel on backwards! At any rate I've always put the brake reactor arm on the left side, but I guess it doesn't matter which it's on, does it?

A different problem ... and does it deserve mentioning here?

I often want to turn road, hybrid, and mountain bikes into an updated 18 to 24 speed version of an "English Racer". Slap on a Brooks B-66, B-72, or even a B-17. Swap out the original bars for Noth Roads and add comfortable hand grips. Then slap on a pair of fenders and a rear rack. Possibly add on a generator light set and a loud silver bell.

Some of the routes I take have proven to be a little overwhelming for an internally geared 3-speed. However, if I rode flat and level routes, I'd take a 58CM double-butted Reynolds 531 road frame with braze-ons for 2 water bottle cages & rear rack + pump peg, add alloy North Road bars and comfortable "ergo" hand grips & an alloy stem, drop the smaller ring on an alloy cotterless chainwheel, lace a Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub to an alloy rim, put a Brooks B-66 on an alloy seat post with an allen wrench binder bolt, use Dia-Compe 500G side-pull brakes, add SKS commuter fenders, add a Jim Blackbourne rear rack, use Dia-Compe 500G side-pull brakes with a sweet pair of suntour alloy brake levers that I have, and add a Union generator light set. The closest I have gotten to something like this so far was an Atala Tourista (Sachs 3-speed) with 27" wheels (Rigida steel rims), center-pull brakes, and stainless steel fenders.

I went from a riser bar to North Roads on my Univega when I first got it - numbness was really dragging on me. Everything was interchangeable, but I went with friction thumbies instead of the under-bar rapid fire shifters, because (a) the rapid fires were hard to set up and (b) the bars didn't have a whole lot of room to use the RF shifters. I liked that configuration a lot, but then went to drops and bar ends.

You can fit 2 cogs on there? Thats brilliant!

I think I see an upgrade to my 3 speed Austro Daimler in the works.

I've got a thing for a road bike w/ drop bars and an IGH. it looks super clean and is very functional.
I've got the IGH bug too...but I'm itchin for a hit of the hard stuff...7 or 8 speed.

I have similar problems. My track bike type frame sports a SRAM P5, I built a new frame into a drop bar Alfine hub bike and just installed a NOS SA S5-2 Alloy hub in my oldish Kona cruiser. I also have a NuVinci rear wheel in a 1990 Trek 950 and two factory IGH bikes, a Civia Hyland Rohloff and a Swobo Dixon. The track frame and Alfine hub bikes are both set up with drop bars.

Can I get some pics of road bikes with IGHs? Clubman style? Now I'm really interested in doing this.

I normally don't ride more than 8-10 miles at a time. However, my dad and I have talked about riding to see my sister and her family this summer, about 60 miles away. I think a Clubman style Takara would work nicely for that.

^I'm looking forward to seeing the completed bike!

For some reason I'm thinking you have your front wheel on backwards! At any rate I've always put the brake reactor arm on the left side, but I guess it doesn't matter which it's on, does it?


Its backwards. When you face it the correct way the arm lines up with the fork nicely. Are those Wood Rims?

flammenwurfer, here's a recent pic of my 3 speed road bike. It was my Velo-de-Cheapo entry, and now with the addition of a rack and panniers is my daily commuter.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=150490&d=1273689690

The one i've had in my head to build for the longest time is like this but with fatter tires and track bars with rubber grips

For a while I've been thinking that my next commuter project will sport a 3 speed IGH. The local co-op a big bin full of used hubs for just a few/5 dollars each. Last time I looked at this bin I saw a few hubs that looked like they were internally geared. Given all the talk about how these hubs "last forever" and even the old ones just "need some oil and to be ridden for a while", would it be insane to build a wheel with an untested parts bin hub?

If not, what should I look for?

I'm not prepared to fork over $65 for a new SA when I see so many used ones laying around... Apart from the rear rim and spokes (uh, and tires and chain and cables) my plan is to build a bike with all used parts.

The frame I'd like to use ('88 Schwinn Le Tour) has a rear dropout width of 126 mm.

the Le Tour is a decent bike for a commuter. Depending on the age of the SA hub it may be 120mm or 126mm. You can always space a 120 out to 126 but Basically you just don't want to be in a situation where you end up with an axle thats too short. Then you'd have to dismantle the hub to replace with a longer one. Just measure the Axle and the Locknut Distance on the hub before you pick one to use.

If you can find a hub thats still got the indicator chain attached thats just one less thing you'll have to get. Aside from the other stuff for your bike you're gonna need the special Sturmey Archer shift cable and a trigger shifter. They are available new and used.

I'm more intrigued by the older, oiled hubs than the newer ones. Oil is less drag, and if applied often enough, should not require taking apart. Greased "no maintance" ones though require dismantling to service, by which time they are probably worn out. Fair number of parts still available for the older hubs too, and plenty of used ones on the market also. But that's just me.

I love riding the 3 speed i built for my girlfriend. It may not be the prettiest bike in the world, but is a god damn delight to ride. I have been known to abscond to the grocery store with it from time to time. It may be a frankenbike, but i love it.

http://kidgoat.ca/~finn/bike/Raleigh/Apr%2028,%202010/working_bike_small.JPG

the Le Tour is a decent bike for a commuter. Depending on the age of the SA hub it may be 120mm or 126mm. You can always space a 120 out to 126 but Basically you just don't want to be in a situation where you end up with an axle thats too short. Then you'd have to dismantle the hub to replace with a longer one. Just measure the Axle and the Locknut Distance on the hub before you pick one to use.

If you can find a hub thats still got the indicator chain attached thats just one less thing you'll have to get. Aside from the other stuff for your bike you're gonna need the special Sturmey Archer shift cable and a trigger shifter. They are available new and used.

Thanks Zaph! consider me encouraged!

I'm more intrigued by the older, oiled hubs than the newer ones. Oil is less drag, and if applied often enough, should not require taking apart. Greased "no maintance" ones though require dismantling to service, by which time they are probably worn out. Fair number of parts still available for the older hubs too, and plenty of used ones on the market also. But that's just me.

I agree. My NOS SA S5-2 Alloy hub is an oiled one and I prefer oil lubrication for hubs which see much use. IMO this is one reason for the Rohloff hubs durability and the new Shimano 11 speed hub is also going to be oil bath lubricated per the preliminary information. The NuVinci is also apparently oil lubricated and my first generation one has a drain plug but NuVinci claims the oil is a special type and is good for the life of the hub. Considering the 6 year warranty on it I can accept that.

^I'm looking forward to seeing the completed bike!

For some reason I'm thinking you have your front wheel on backwards! At any rate I've always put the brake reactor arm on the left side, but I guess it doesn't matter which it's on, does it?

Yep; it's backwards. I put the wheels on temporarily so I could check clearances and then decided to take pictures. :o

So do you all just take the wheelset that comes with the bike and dissassemble the rear, then relace it to the 3 speed hub? Reuse the spokes and nipples? Won't the spokes be too long for the larger flanges on the 3sp hubs?
I have a shimano 3 sp hub but don't want to buy spokes just yet. I do have a wheelset I could use though if it's "plug and play" so to speak.

For me and my Austro Daimler it was exactly as you say...plug n' play. I had a Normandy High Flange hub on there, disassembled the wheel and reused the spokes & nipples. Everything was close enough that it worked out.
If you've got a low flange hub the spokes will likely be a bit too long, but if they are just try building the wheel 4 cross instead of 3 and you can generally use up an extra 3-4mm of spoke by going from 3 to 4 cross lacing.

I like that Zaphod! How big is that chainring? Looks bigger than most I've seen on 3 speeds.

thenomad: I suppose it depends on what wheels you're starting with. So far, I've just bought inexpensive rims from my lbs or online and ordered spokes from my very cheap spoke guy. If the rims on the wheels you have are nice you might as well save some money and use them.

Yeah I've got it set up to do the Hour Record ;) :lol:


no, really... Its a 52 and its a little bigger than I'd like but when I'm feelin good it lets me cruise at a steady 20mph in 2nd gear. 3rd is basically useless unless you're going downhill. (of which there is one on my commute...and I live at the top of it)

I've got a 46 that I've been meaning to put on there, but I gotta say the big ring looks hardcore ;)


I stole the shifter placement (on the right drop) idea from a bike Sixty-Fiver posted.

Haha, that's pretty big.

Where else would you put the shifter on drops?

Honestly No Clue, but I hadn't even thought of it as an option until I saw it done.

I'm toying with the idea of mixing French and English cycling traditions by converting a Peugeot U-08 to Sturmey-Archer 3 speed, upright handlebars and using 650B rims with chunky tires.

Actually, 559 rims and rubber might be adequate for my purpose, and more in line with my budget.

I went from a riser bar to North Roads on my Univega when I first got it - numbness was really dragging on me. Everything was interchangeable, but I went with friction thumbies instead of the under-bar rapid fire shifters, because (a) the rapid fires were hard to set up and (b) the bars didn't have a whole lot of room to use the RF shifters. I liked that configuration a lot, but then went to drops and bar ends.

That's what is keeping me back from swapping out a flat bar for North Road bars on one of my commuter set-ups right now.

Hey, this thread has got me thinking .... the little "Dr. Frankenstein" in me is starting to stir.
"Interesting locking feature" has me thinking Raleigh Superbe...Dynohub, Brooks leather saddle, S.A. gears... :love:


Ladies Bike - $25 (Westport)

http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/bik/1737595902.html
Date: 2010-05-12, 4:00PM EDT
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Handy lady special.. 26"...very poor condition...needs tires...paint...interesting locking feature.


Location: Westport
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Hard to go wrong for 25 bux...

Hard to go wrong for 25 bux...

Hmmmmmm ....