Classic & Vintage - Miyata Radial Tires

I just acquired a Miyata 1000LT with its original Miyata Branded Radial tires.

I did some searching and it seems they were made by Panaracer. Some folks seem to really sing their praises and others say they're garbage.

Anyone else ride these tires? Does Panaracer still make a radial tire? does anybody?

I've not seen any other radial bike tires.

nope, but i hear good things about these tires. i want to see your ride, please post pics =)

I'd just love to have a spare. Mine are in great condition and feel kind of different than the hard case tires i'm used to riding. After some more reading there looks like there's a debate as to whether radial construction makes any difference on a tire with such a small contact patch as a bike tire.

Mine is an '89 with the funky 80's graphics. I'll post up some pics in a minute.

I've never heard of radial bike tires.

Panaracer has been around for a long time. Their tires have been sold by many names in the US. Some companies here called the company National, claiming that's what the company was called in Japan. That could be true, or the Japanese equivalent. I think it was tied to, or the same as, the Panasonic company. They were sold under the Cycle-Pro name, as that was the West Coast Cycles name for everything they sold. They were sold as Schwinn tires.

Anyway, I've always liked their tires. I am glad I recently discovered that the tires are still being made. It's also nice that they're still made in Japan.

Cheng Shin, in China, seems to have inherited the mold from one popular Panaracer mold. I got a pair from Niagara for $7 each. I haven't tried them, but they look nice and feel good in my hands. At that price, I could hardly ask for much. I'm optimistic, though. The only thing is that they're blackwall, whereas they used to be gumwall. I prefer the look of gumwall, but of course, that's because I'm an old fuddy duddy. Blackwalls are IN.

Nashonaru, in katakana, was the name of the company in Japan. Literally, "national" written in Japanese characters for foreign words. Funny, huh?

Parent company is Matsu****a, which you'll see occasionally. Forgive the censors, for they know not what they do.

it would seem Matsush1ta has a hand in damn near everything....I've got a CD-rom drive with their name on it and I think i've seen their name under the hood of my Subaru :lol:

Tom, from what I've read they only produced them for a few years (maybe 2 or 3) and they came standard on Miyata 610 and 1000's in the late 80's. I've read that someone currently makes a Cross or MTB (I forget which) tire that is radial ply but i forget who.

Its hard for me to say whether they feel different or not since I've never ridden any other tires on this bike.

I was trying to match the original look of my 89 1000 so started yet another thread about skinwall tire availability, or lack of. This was on a forum dedicated to Miyata & Expedition touring bikes. Someone very confidently replied that the Panaracer Pasela is the same tire made by the then named 'National' tire company. I don't know the truth of this. I've never ridden them; but, everytime the Pasela is mentioned, it is positive as far as I can tell. I would have bought them for mine but couldn't find them in 700 locally which is where I prefer to buy stuff. I bought the Vittoria Randoneur cross instead.

Cheng Shin, in China

Republic of China (not People's Republic of China) = Taiwan (not China) :)

I use to have a few great pics of how the radial tires worked. Without getting into the details they were able to better deform around road objects and the road surface in general thus providing a smoother ride without sacrificing durability. Back in the day they were simply the best touring tire made. When Miyata pulled out of the U.S. the shop I worked at ordered as many as we could and we noly sold them Miyata owners.

I found the pics. If you were to deform a normal tire like I did in pic #2 the tire flex wouldspan a greater distance around the circumference of the tire which in turn leads to more harsh ride. A tire that can better deform around objects is less puncture resistant as well. Radial tires could survive casing slices much better as well, a slice was less susceptible to tearing.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/jimr2527/Raleigh/DSC01977.jpg
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/jimr2527/Raleigh/DSC01978.jpg

I just acquired a Miyata 1000LT with its original Miyata Branded Radial tires.

I did some searching and it seems they were made by Panaracer. Some folks seem to really sing their praises and others say they're garbage.

Anyone else ride these tires? Does Panaracer still make a radial tire? does anybody?
Trek spec'ed those on their 890 model back in the mid-1980s. They had a weird, squishy ride I didn't care for, and frankly I see no particular benefit to using a radial tire on a bicycle.

Radial-ply tires make sense on a 4-wheel vehicle because 4-wheel vehicles cannot lean in corners. When you corner in a car, a bias-ply tire will tend to lift off the pavement on the outside aspect of the contact patch, which causes loss of traction and poor handling. A radial-ply tire has a more flexible sidewall that allows the contact patch to remain more fully engaged with the pavement. But since bicycles can lean in corners the contact patch always remains fully engaged with the pavement. These tires were a solution in search of a problem.

JohnDThompson, thank you for that explanation.

And isn't it more expensive to make a radial tire? So it's doubly stupid for a bicycle tire.

My favorite tire! Yep you are one of the few who ask or cares. Its revolutionary in tire design and on a wonderful bicycle of course.
The last one I saw made was 1988. they are nearly impossible to find and I hunt for them. Noone makes a true radial tire but Maxxis makes incredible claims that they have a tire that is radial currently-This tire is anything but a radial.

The true Panasonic radial in both 700c and 27" versions, is the final step forward in tire design I believe. Only Panaracer made a true radial that can be found, and even then it is nearly impossible. It is possible to restore some older Panaracer Miyata radials, if you find one and know how.

As far as ride-They ride very different, takes a little getting use to, and they are the most comfortable riding tire by far made. The key to solving some of the issues has to do with the rim combo and tire pressure. They also feel very goosey in turns, and you need to know a few things to make them work right. If you ever find some, keep them, most were thrown away and replaced because the design was not optimized, but regardless, they are a true revolution in tire design. i do own a few and am always looking. The 610 and 1000 came with them and some say Trek had a model too. All the tires were made by the tire leader - Panaracer. Sadly, they have not improved and rereleased the tire. Don't waste your time on the maxxis tire. All the real radials were made by National/Panaracer./Matsushida, which is the same place.
The tires are Not the Pasela, but the pasela is the closest thing, well maybe Gran Bois. but none have the ride comfort of the radial. Miami Jim shows why the tire is so incredible and also why it will outride Any tire in bumpy terrain, and yes I have ridden them all. But...It had design flaws which never really allowed this tire to be what it could- demolish any tire to this day. I am convinced a radial is still the next step instead of another version of the same thing, sold for an unreal price like we see in all these new Pro tires with shiny colors and big claims.
The lateral flex dilemma could be taken out of the tire and as far as I know these tires have no been made since 1988. It is a wonderful tire. It is also a quantum step forward. Im a tire geek if you didn't notice.

very interesting, thank you.

With all due respect to JDT I'll have to disagree with his comparison to automotive tires. The general construction principle may be similar but the application is completely different. Radial bike tires were designed to do exactly as pictures in my previous post and that was to better comform to irregularites while riding in an upright position. The design concept in regards to bicycle tires had nothing to do with sidewall flex or keeping a consistent contact patch while cornering.

My 1989 Miyata Team still has its original radial tires....

Wow its nice to see anyone is interested! So the problem is entering automobile thinking at all to the tire. if the benefits of the radial contruction are exploited, yet the lateral flex reduced, then what
is arrived at is a tire that rides like a much larger tire, yet has
the rolling resistance that exceeds any race tire and radials last longer due to Miami Jims example. The most wild thing is that a radial feels like 50 psi at 80 psi. First time i thought i had a pinch flat. Why?
Because under pressure the plys are not becoming rigid due to sheer forces. Meaning they are not fighting eachother. When a tire doesn't conform, it lifts you up (bump). You see this tire changing shape so fast as you ride down the road, because its like a shock absorber nearly.
Flaws- I will not give it all away just yet, some are tons of rubber, the shape, low psi (auto thinking), and slightly too big of bead seat.
Even at that...my 28c Miyata 700c tire smokes my Grand Bois 33c tire in ride comfort on rough terrain, clear as day. The Grand Bois is the gold standard of touring tires for ride quality by the way. Yet this old beat up tire kicks its teeth out!
But if you step back for a minute, and look at how quantum this tire is....its hard to believe most of these land in dumpsters. It is probably harder to find one of these than a clement silk, and they don't cost anything to speak of.
Later flex of Radials is simply a function of design and shape, not of the radial construction itself. It was all new ground, Maxxis tried and they couldn't, but they didn't solve the riddle.
Some time here we will see a true radial come along and smoke what we have now.
Maybe one day it might be Panasonic can put the final nail in bias thinking!
As i said... I realize i am a tire geek, but it took me forever even to find much of anything on this until i did some testing and tinkering.
Sorry for being so long in my post...guess I was happy to see a few even considered the subject. The world is not flat, nor is Bias construction the final step. imagine a $25 radial that smokes a
$125 Veloflex Record....it could be done right now.
Save your radials folks.

cool thread. you guys are awesome.

Isaac, in regards to your PM....No, I dont not have the tires, both beads ripped when I removed them. Contrary to how they look in my pic they sidewalls were dried out.

Interesting, I recently bought an '89 Miyata 1000lt, and yes, it does have these tires, and they look in fair condition. maybe I will keep them for a while, and compare them to the Marathon Supremes 700x40 on the 210.

Are they really that good? If so, how come no one has rediscovered the superiority and offered them?

I'll bring my Miyata next time we go for a ride and you can check em out yourself. They're definitely different and feel smooth over cracked pavement, and like a car tire they sometimes look like they are a little low on air when they're properly inflated. The drawback of these IMO is they have kind of a lot of rubber on them...more than I'd want on a typical tire...maybe its something to do with the radial construction but I kind of just think it was built beefy.

Ok so you can often bring a rough looking tire back from the dead if you scrub it with a mild soap, then hit it with white vinegar and rub it in well. Then get some Liquid Latex Preservative (Tire Life) and paint the sidewalls with highly diluted latex (ammonia dilution). Many a shot looking tire is just fine after this.
Too much rubber and wrong shape, but the tire is still very neat- at least just to try. if the bead is tight and you have a hook bead rim, i would run the psi above the recommended, but be careful for the bead jumping. Within reason of course. Most gauges read low too.

oh and you can shave your tires down....if your crazy, and then you can bring up the pressure, and a few other tweaks...and its not so much like a touring soft tire.

This, from the late, great Sheldon Brown (may he rest in peace):

Bicycle tires have the threads of the fabric running diagonally, ("bias") from bead to bead. Modern car tires have the main threads running straight over from one bead to the other, known as "radial" construction. Radial tires will also have a "belt" of plies running all the way around the circumference of the tire, crossing the radial plies.

Radial tires have been tried for bicycles, but they tend to be too floppy from side to side. This floppiness feels quite unpleasant in actual riding--much like the feel of a grossly underinflated tire.

Radial tires have been tried for bicycles, but they tend to be too floppy from side to side. This floppiness feels quite unpleasant in actual riding--much like the feel of a grossly underinflated tire.


I rode mine today and I can't say I agree at all. It feels really great in corners IMO...perhaps its 'cause I weigh close to 200 pounds, but I don't think they feel floppy or underinflated at all. Tweech's Zone.

The comparisons to automobile tires have been interesting.

Anyway, around one hundred and fifteen years ago they began to put engines on bicycles. These vehicles are known today as "motorcycles". Like their bicycle ancestors, they remain single track vehicles that lean into corners.

It's not uncommon for modern high performance street and road racing motorcycles to be fitted with radial tires. There are many makes and models of radial tires for motorcycles offered on today's market.

tcs

I'd really like to try a pair of these just for the experience.

also said, "I do own a pair of 559 Panaracer radials, 26 x 1.5. They seem to have unusually low rolling resistance, and unusually good power transmission. Unfortunately, they are also sorta wobbly from side to side, which makes them feel unnervingly as if they were going flat. Whenever I've ridden with them, I've found myself constantly stopping to check the pressure."
Wonder what would happen in a narrow version with less rubber and a different aspect ratio, in higher pressure?
Maybe one could get partial benefit from raising pressure...maybe a wider rim?

I can say without a doubt that my 26x2.125 balloon tires on my Varsity feel a lot like bias ply tires do on a car in corners.

I think its safe to say that Sheldon was in the camp who wasn't a fan of these tires. Some people love em, some really don't like em.

Isaac mentioned Maxxis radial tires but said "They didn't solve the riddle"

I was doing some searching and it appears that Maxxis makes a couple of radial ply models now.

Here's one on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00368NX5W/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?ie=UTF8&cloe_id=203545c3-9415-4e8c-ba73-8545b40999bd&attrMsgId=LPWidget-A2&pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00367KJQO&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0D7YJ2056MWY0BRRVHRG

$69 per tire. Anyone willing to try it out?

If it was 32 instead of a 22 I might have considered it, but 22 is freakin tiny.

I'm debating it because I AM curious, but I'm not sure I'm $140 curious.

If you wanted to test ONE tire, would you put it on the front or rear? I sold a bike recently and replaced the rear tire with a Panaracer Pasela. As you probably know all too well, I think highly of that tire. The bike felt like it had a Panaracer on it, so maybe the rear is a good place to test a tire. Maybe that's because it's where most of the weight goes. But I'd expect handling to be the job of the front tire. Hmm, handling or ride, handling or ride...

Maybe the answer to solve the riddle of the raidal is a radial rear for ride, but a non-raidal front. It seems like most people are saying the ride is great, the handling isn't.

Good point. So buy one and put it on the rear. And maybe handling is governed more by the frame than the front tire, and if that's true, then the tire's job is to provide the kind of ride you want.

70 bucks to be a guinnea pig...hmmmmmmmmm...let me sleep on this. We'll see how much I spend on the wedding bands tomorrow.

Funny you should mention your wedding bands. I remember that my first wedding band cost exactly $70.

Maxxis's tire is not a radial as far as I am concerned, nor does the construction look anything like it. I talked to them kindly about this and they gave their claim and the excuse was that
a true radial is full of problems and they felt the way to do it was a hybrid of sorts. I looked at the construction...its anything but a radial. Keep your eyes out on Ebay, you can spot a radial from the inside of the tire every time. Panaracer, National, Miyata, and I even thing Univega have labels on the same tire. I wouldn't waste your time on the Maxxis unless you want a real great cornering tire that rides like a steel wheel.- just my opinion. I do like Maxxis, just think they are really stretching the definition as a marketing thing. Yes in the rear is best to start. Get the pressure up high, watch that bead though. High for me is 95 psi in the rear on this tire

I just found this old thread and have what I believe are a set of these tires. These came off my 1985 Miyata 1000 and I wanted to verify that they are the radial tires discussed in this thread.
Thanks in advance.
http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp113/nc-teesquare/Miyata1000Tire-02.jpg
http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp113/nc-teesquare/Miyata1000Tire-04.jpg

Certainly looks like em.

Please realize that tires have a shelf life as it is made of organic materials that breaks down with age from off-gassing, UV exposure and all sorts of environmental "fallout" it may encounter.
Yes, you can try and buy every last one of the Panaracer radials you can still find, but how do you know if they are all safe to ride or are ticking timebombs ready to suddenly blow on the road.
I exerienced this myself last year when I inflated and rode the Turbo VS (from maybe 87) tires on my Peugeot for a short test ride last winter. The front tire blew out it's sidewall after parked it in the garage overnight. Turns out there was dry rot near the bead that was hard to see as the very small cracks were below the clincher rim line edge. so the latex/rubber where the cords wrapped around the bead let go from the pressure.
Panasonic radials from 1988-89??....That's over 20 years ago!....be careful!

Chombi

I just found this old thread and have what I believe are a set of these tires. These came off my 1985 Miyata 1000 and I wanted to verify that they are the radial tires discussed in this thread.
Thanks in advance.
http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp113/nc-teesquare/Miyata1000Tire-02.jpg
http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp113/nc-teesquare/Miyata1000Tire-04.jpg

Hmmm.. I assume the radial plies are below those bias plies we see inside the tire going at an agle? IUC, Radial plies shoud go 90 degrees, perpendicular from bead to bead.

Chombi

Hmmm.. I assume the radial plies are below those bias plies we see inside the tire going at an agle? IUC, Radial plies shoud go 90 degrees, perpendicular from bead to bead.

Chombi

Well its not the radial, but close. In fact the tire is much like that in color and vintage. Chombi spotted the diagonal fibers which means its Bias, which means- regular tire. The radial from the inside runs bead to bead as he said, so you see fabric running left to right. I have a couple pairs still, including a NOS pair, and if I get time I will put up some images.
The tires said Miyata on them, but also there were some others made by the same company National. National is what we know as Panaracer.
The radial old time tire was on some Univegas, Treks (I have heard), and was sold as a Panaracer tire with some other name I forget but had. The key is to look on the inside of the tire for those lines perpendicular. Miyata 610 and 1000's had them in the 80's, and often a real good 610 can be found with some fair radials. Vinegar and diluted Latex, or maybe wetsuit seam sealer is a good idea.
Zac

Well its not the radial, but close. In fact the tire is much like that in color and vintage. Chombi spotted the diagonal fibers which means its Bias, which means- regular tire. The radial from the inside runs bead to bead as he said, so you see fabric running left to right. I have a couple pairs still, including a NOS pair, and if I get time I will put up some images.
The tires said Miyata on them, but also there were some others made by the same company National. National is what we know as Panaracer.
The radial old time tire was on some Univegas, Treks (I have heard), and was sold as a Panaracer tire with some other name I forget but had. The key is to look on the inside of the tire for those lines perpendicular. Miyata 610 and 1000's had them in the 80's, and often a real good 610 can be found with some fair radials. Vinegar and diluted Latex, or maybe wetsuit seam sealer is a good idea.
Zac
Thanks for the info. they just went in the trash. I'm not real keen on riding 25 year old tires anyway. I'll stick with my 700 x 50 Schwalbe Marathon Supremes.

If anyone still has some of these tires, can you tell me what the pressure maximum was on the sidewall?


I am attempting to make my own bicycle tires.

http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcimper/assorted/inanities/recumbent/tire_making/tire_making_main.html

I was making mostly radials but have had the same type of pressure-related failures in several attempts now, that corresponds with what I have read in tire manufacturing literature. (In short, true radials have inflation limits far below what bias-ply tires can have) I am very curious what pressure the Miaytas were rated for.

That's some neat stuff, Doug! (And I doubt anyone will mind the bump.)

I don't know a great deal about tire construction, but would it work to combine one layer of angled fabric with an outer layer of radial fabric?

That's some neat stuff, Doug! (And I doubt anyone will mind the bump.)

I don't know a great deal about tire construction, but would it work to combine one layer of angled fabric with an outer layer of radial fabric?

Not really, I'd think you'd lose the ride-softness that radials are famous for.
The Maxxis Radiale 22c does this--it combines a radial layer with angled layers, and the result is that it doesn't ride like a radial. The reviews are fairly unremarkable. http://www.maxxis.com/Bicycle/Road-Racing/Radiale-22c.aspx

The Vittoria radial has the bias inclined at 5°, but it is a very narrow-width tire. This means that it must be run at rather high pressures (to avoid the lateral stability issues) and so the 'radial softness' effect is also diminished. http://www.vittoria.com/tech/radiale-technology/
Also note that the reviews are generally unremarkable--not that the tire does anything wrong, but that it feels pretty much like a bias-ply tire. And then that leads to the question of why would one pay more for the radial construction, if it ends up riding just like a normal tire?



There is no definite point of change regarding thread angle. A zero-degree radial rides very soft but has very poor lateral stability.
A normal (~45°) tire rides much harder, but has much more lateral stability.
Anywhere between those angles you'd get a mix of the two--but at very-low thread angles there are lateral-stability issues just with tire inflation, depending on the pressure.

Doug, if I remember correctly the Miyata/Panaracer was rated at 85psi for a 32c tire. All of our customers seemed to be happy with that pressure.

My 1984 Trek 720 touring bike came with the 27X1-1/4" Panaracer TT Radials, and I wore them out, first mounted on both wheels, and then finishing off the front tire after mounting it on the rear wheel (with a new, normal tire mounted up front).

I had been disappaointed with the steering feel of the Trek from the beginning, especially at lower speeds where sharper steering angles are possible and common. Very poor steering feel, exactly as the late Sheldon Brown was quoted as saying ("unpleasant") iir.

With a normal front tire on the front wheel, the steering was much-improved, and I regretted having kept the radial tire on the front wheel for that first 8-month season in NY.

Another year later, I was wearing the front radial tire out (having previously mounted it on the rear wheel), so I bought another new regular tire to replace it.
Once again, after replacing a radial tire (this time a rear tire) with a modern tire, I again experienced a very big improvement in the steering feel of the bike. I remember feeling somewhat angry at this point, that now a second season of riding had been tarnished by the poor handling characteristice of those marketing-aimed radial tires. I felt angry with Trek for this, but forgave all as I remembered having bought the bike new, mid-winter left-over, sans index shifting, for what I recall was slightly less than half of it's 869.00 retail price.
I was also surprised not to have read of any very negative reviews of these tire by this time, presumeably only because they were relatively un-common in the tire market and seemed to not be sold as replacement tires. I now wonder if the magazine test writers weren't riders and never actually rode the few bikes that they tested with these tires mounted!

So that's my entire experience with the "TT Radial" tires. The tread was wide and hybrid-like, somewhat like the Paselas, and wore pretty well. I didn't get too many flats that I can remember and the tire's beads stayed attached to the Matrix Titan touring rims at all times and at various pressures.
I did some off-road climbs using these tires and always felt like the driving traction was on the impressive side, but that was also probably what I wanted to believe. I was always reminded that I was using radial tires every time I went to inflate them, constantly experimenting with what pressure would (or MIGHT) work best. IIR, I eventually settled on what would be a normal pressure for a standard, like-sized tire.

Really good, good riddence to the radial tires on my Trek, the only bike I still own from way back then.:thumb:

These days, using 28mm tires on 25mm-wide Module-4 rims, the Trek's ride could not be more different than with the original parts.
The wider rims also improved the brake's problematic pad-dive angle geometry that resulted from switching to 700c rims.
I can't say why radial tires are used successfully on motorcycles, but they can control tread temperatures and the sidewalls of todays low-aspect-ratio motorcycle tires are relatively short.
I think the MC radial tires may also have more-longitudinal bias belting under the tread (which would surely reduce localized, lateral squirming).

In conclusion, I would liken the radial ride to using a bike with a tight, notchy headset.
The steering response is delayed, so steering feels high-effort, non-linear and jerky. Again, as Sheldon said...