Road Cycling - Toe hitting my front wheel

I've been riding my '04 Specialized Allez Comp since April (my first road bike), and this hasn't bit me yet, but I'm wondering if it's normal. If I turn my front wheel as shown in the picture, I risk hitting the tire with my toe when my foot is fully forward. I rarely make sharp turns, but I tend to avoid pedalling through turns just to be on the safe side. Is this just a side effect of the "compact frame," or is there a sizing issue? The bike is comfortable otherwise. I'm just afraid that if I make an emergency swerve at high speed, I'll accidentally "brake" the front wheel if my feet are in the wrong position.

And no, I'm not wearing clown shoes. US size 10.5, and the cleats are under the balls of my feet.

It happens to me as well, but only when I make a *very* sharp turn, like when I slow way down and do a tight circle before turning into my driveway. It's never happened on the road, I guess because it's not possible to turn that sharply when going any reasonable speed. I would say, don't worry about it, go ahead and pedal through turns and if it happens at speed then do something about it. BTW I have 2002 Specialized Sirrus Pro A1 and size 12 shoes.

It's normal and isn't restricted to compact frame geometry. If it bothers you, you could try cutting off 'yer toes. That ought to solve the problem. :)

Happens to me too, just don't pedal if you are turning that sharply :p

It's normal and isn't restricted to compact frame geometry.
And it shouldn't be normal, and the manufacturers get away with it because it is accepted. It's poor frame design from the get-go. It has much to do with mass production. It relates to headtube angles, fork design and inappropriate wheel size as much as anything else.

You might try compromising by fitting shorter cranks (assuming you have 170-175mm cranks, fit 165-160mm cranks).

Other than that, you WILL one day find out how you can get a foot caught on a wheel and go down in a parking lot/driveway at home/MUP at low speed and hurt yourself. I've seen it happen and it's not pleasant.

Rowan - how exactly do you fix this? Move the BB back? add rake? To be honest with you, I would rather keep hitting my toes on my front tire when making stupid-slow turns than have to have "less than desirable" geometry.

It has much to do with mass production. Hey, it happens with custom frames, too! I have fairly large feet (Size 46) and long cranks (175mm). I think that toe overlap occurs on all the bikes I have ever ridden. I over 25 yrs. of relatively serious cycling, it has never caused me any problems. (knock on wood!)

This will definitely happen with short wheelbase and tight angled racing bikes. Yes, frame makers can avoid this by spacing stuff out and relaxing the head angle but then the bike's handling won't be as sharp. For some people, that's a fine compromise but for others, who rarely get caught in a toe-overlap situation who would rather have the quicker handling, the overlap is not a concern. I get a bit of overlap on my bike (luckily I have small feet) since I ride a 48cm "racing" frame with 170mm cranks and 700c wheels. I just have to be mindful of my crank position. I can pedal through really tight turns by ratcheting. Perhaps it's my MTB background that helps me out here since ratcheting to clear high obstacles is not uncommon. I just have to think 90-degrees out of phase from that mindset.

Rowan - how exactly do you fix this? Move the BB back? add rake? To be honest with you, I would rather keep hitting my toes on my front tire when making stupid-slow turns than have to have "less than desirable" geometry.
It's not something that can be fixed once the bike is built. It goes back to original design on the drawing board. The angles to be considered are headtube, rake and trail on the fork. Wheelbase, top tube length also have a role to play. Bikes really are a little more complex than most people think. Change one dimension or angle, and it may affect a heap of others, let alone the handling of the bike.

As an example if you look at many of the older style of (lugged) bikes, you will see the fork has a much great rake on it than most off-the-shelf road bikes. Likely the headtube angle is different as well to get trail in the right range. The real problem comes with modern WSD (women's) bikes that are designed for smaller bodies, but still retain 700C wheels.

I am not particularly into frame-building and design, but there are specialist weblists where a search of the archives can give you some answers. And yes, I take SteveE's point on custom frames as well.

I have two road bikes, and the one that is compact geometry has a lot of toe overlap, and the other one has hardly any. But man does that compact bike really handle fast, shorter wheel base; I think it's worthy trade off. Oh, and BTW, yes it bit me twice when I first got it, went to turn and oops, blood ended up leaking out of a couple of my parts. ouch! :eek: Got in a habit of dropping my heel down just before a tight slow turn to raise my toe which allows the wheel to pass. Enjoy! :)

I'm much more concerned about clipping a pedal on the asphalt after coming out of a tight turn than I am about toe overlap.

Jack, if the fork on your bike is one of those straight jobs, you might want to consider buying a new fork with a fair amount of rake. I wear a size 11 shoe, and both my bikes have sloping forks, leaving about a half inch of space between my toes and my front tire. That would be the best way to approach your dilemma.

What's that got to do with toe overlap?The guy was concerned about toe overlap. In real riding conditions it doesn't happen very frequently, IMO. This was in response to Rowan regarding shorter cranks. It would be morely likely to solve the pedal clipping problem than toe overlap.

I think for the experienced riders here, toe overlap is not necessarily an issue. They know about it and can deal with it, like khuon says, by ratcheting (unless it's a fixie, of course). And cornering at speed is not an issue.

BUT, and this is where my concerns come from, the design principles are creeping into hybrids and comfort bikes, which are usually ridden by people whose experience and bike handling skills are somewhat less.

The point, I suppose, is that while people say it's acceptable for there to be toe overlap, then the designers will get away with it. It's certainly not listed as a cautionary issue in the manuals for new bikes that I've seen, yet the injury/law suit potential must be as great as it was before lawyers lips were introduced.

It's like saying you don't like your shiny new Ferrari, it handles like s**t in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Most race-oriented road bikes have tight angles that will give toe/wheel overlap; unless you're in the frequent business of dead-stop battles on a fixed gear track bike, you should very rarely see this as a problem. Trying to correct it by changing the fork, shortening the cranks, or cutting your toes is the same as trying to fit an automatic transmission on the Ferrari.

Well, that more than answers my question. Thanks for the quick responses.

I'll just live with the situation as it stands, there's no sense blowing money on hardware to fix something that isn't much of a problem. And although amputating my toes would save me a few grams and make me cool and exxxtreme, they tend to come in handy when I'm off the bike. I'll hold out for the future, when we'll have cybernetic feet with toes that can be clipped off like a helmet visor and stashed in our jersey pockets.

Jack, if the fork on your bike is one of those straight jobs, you might want to consider buying a new fork with a fair amount of rake. I wear a size 11 shoe, and both my bikes have sloping forks, leaving about a half inch of space between my toes and my front tire. That would be the best way to approach your dilemma.

Straight forks still have rake, it's just at the fork crown, not in curve of the fork blades.

I would be VERY careful changing the rake on my bike. The frame was designed with specific handling characteristics, changing the rake could have a detrimental effect.

-murray

FWIW, my Co-Motion tandem has significant toe overlap, but the handling at speed is outstanding.

-murray

It's a function of frame geometry and cleat position.

I have big feet so my cleats are pretty far back on my shoes and I bump the wheel like you describe. If I WANTED to, I could move the cleats up and avoid the rub, but then I feel off balance on the pedals.

Trick with the rub is to "ratchet pedal" through a sharp turn (if you have to pedal)--push down w/ the leg that is on the inside of the turn, and then bring it back up the same way (ie, don't turn a full pedal stroke). Repeat as needed.

i have a custom frame with a bit of overlap.

it's normal, and as pointed out above, to entirely eliminate overlap would lead to some undesireable geometry and one sluggish bike.

have any of ya tried a clip more toward the toe instead of the middle of the foot ?

Shouldn't the pedals be aligned with the tuberosities of the first and fifth metatarsal? I think you need to move the cleats forward, the problem should go away if you do this.

It's like saying you don't like your shiny new Ferrari, it handles like s**t in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Most race-oriented road bikes have tight angles that will give toe/wheel overlap; unless you're in the frequent business of dead-stop battles on a fixed gear track bike, you should very rarely see this as a problem. Trying to correct it by changing the fork, shortening the cranks, or cutting your toes is the same as trying to fit an automatic transmission on the Ferrari.

zouf, nice metaphor.

just to fine-tune it a bit, trying to "correct" toe overlap is equivalent to lengthening the wheelbase of a ferrari, putting on tires that are closer together, and putting some plushy heavy leather inside.

jack, you're not "living with it", like it's some bad thing you have to deal with. a guy with a new ferrari doesn't say "man, i guess i'll just live with the quick handling and the vibrations from the road". you have a race bike. you are enjoying everything that such a bike has to offer.

sd

I've had lots of bikes and the only one that had toe interference was post collision (Motobecane Grand Record - what a shame). Maybe it's because I ride larger frame sizes?

<shrug> The only time it's ever an issue is trackstanding at a traffic light.

<shrug> The only time it's ever an issue is trackstanding at a traffic light.

Haha I was just going to post the same thing! I have fallen twice at stops while trackstanding b/c of the toe overlap... it catches me off guard when it happens.

I wear 14s. I have toe overlap with the guy I draft off of.

I wear 14s. I have toe overlap with the guy I draft off of.

:roflmao:

The toe overlap is one of the many reason why I don't ride a modern road bike. Besides the fact that there's no lugs and most bike now are made of alum, carbon, & ti (won't mind the Ti)

I actually dented a Raleigh R800 Road bike because of the toe overlap. The bike was super light and I found out in the worse possible way.

Bikes from the 80s don't have this issue, they are also usually made of Steel. A material that I have grown to love and have those beautiful lugs.

ummm, just don't turn sharp and ride really fast all the time!

The toe overlap is one of the many reason why I don't ride a modern road bike. Besides the fact that there's no lugs and most bike now are made of alum, carbon, & ti (won't mind the Ti)

I actually dented a Raleigh R800 Road bike because of the toe overlap. The bike was super light and I found out in the worse possible way.

Bikes from the 80s don't have this issue, they are also usually made of Steel. A material that I have grown to love and have those beautiful lugs.

Have a mid-70s Gitane, a big frame, and it does have overlap (and I wear shoes, not skis). It's a question of steer + seat tube angles. Tight bikes are, uhh, tight.