Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Water bottles vrs Camelbacks

OK, your last advice was to sign up for the Eastern Sierra Double… So, I did..

Reading through the documentation they strongly suggest using a 70oz Camelback. I went out tonight and looked them over and started thinking that 70oz is the same as ~3 extra bottles.. That’s a huge amount of fluids..

I was thinking on a Sacramento 100+ degree day I can ride about 20 miles on two bottles. So I could see their point about carrying extra water.

But what caught my eye was a dual bottle holder for behind the seat. Which would be 48oz.

So, what are the pro’s and con’s of two extra water bottles or a Camelback?

Always let the bike carry the load.

water bottle or sweaty back. that's what i think. i'm 100% with znomit. the only exception being LDR in sub-freezing temps, where heat from your back could help keep your water thawed.

It a wonder someone hasn't designed a camel back that is fastened to the bike.

Contrary opinion: From a behavioral standpoint, with a properly setup Camelback, you are likely to drink more and stay better hydrated, particularly in hot dry climates.

Contrary opinion: From a behavioral standpoint, with a properly setup Camelback, you are likely to drink more and stay better hydrated, particularly in hot dry climates.

It is very very hard to gauge how much you are drinking from a camelbak.

I use a Camelbak all the time on rides of more than 4 hours or so--I wore one on a 300k two weeks ago; no bother at all. It keeps me from worrying about when I can fill up and the weight does not bother me. Obviously others disagree. As far as knowing how much you've had to drink: I don't think it matters too much in the sense that generally speaking you always have plenty with the Camelbak.

It a wonder someone hasn't designed a camel back that is fastened to the bike.

You can always do this:

http://a-world.net//files/bf/KonaSutra/tour/2010/04/13/02.jpg

It is very very hard to gauge how much you are drinking from a camelbak.

Camel Back Flow Meter:

http://www.camelbak.com/~/media/Products/Current/REC%20Accessories/2010/Flow%20Meter/rec-accessories-flow-meter-s10-large-72.ashx?bc=White&as=0&dmc=0&h=340&thn=0&w=270

have you ever gotten chaffing from the CamelBack straps? Do you use butt-butter?

I also saw on with just a little padding, hence it would have less air flow
Or one with more padding, I would think this gives a bit better air flow.l

It isn't my bike.

Contrary opinion: From a behavioral standpoint, with a properly setup Camelback, you are likely to drink more and stay better hydrated, particularly in hot dry climates.


Case on point. Look at what the armed services do. The Army and Marines are using camelbacks. They used to use waist mounted canteens exclusively.

I am not sure what the armed services have to do with long-distance cycling, but still...

The answer might be to get one and see how it works. I know that on a 1200 randonnee, Machka ended up in desperate trouble because of chafing and other pain issues and has never used one again. Others have used thejm with few issues that they have revealed.

Personally, I would rather not have the extra weight on my back and shoulders for any long ride. I have had similar weights with backpacks, so can extrapolate from there.

About the only single advantage of a Camelbak for such a ride is the insulation it provides.

The issue of capacity is always going to be present in LD rides, but Zefal make the nice big wide-mouthed bottles that make insertion of ice and energy drinks easier, and they fill to 900ml.

Topeak also makes (made?) an extendable bottle cage that can take 1.5-litre bottles. I have one, and it works quite well, although I would only use it for MTB trekking, for example.

The issue of how you use energy powders if at all needs to be thought about, too. Do you intend using them and if so, how? By bottle on the bike, or mixed in the Camelback?

Personally, out of the options you provide, I would opt for the seat-mounted bottle cages, but then on a ride like this one, I have a rear-mounted bag that would have a bladder of water in addition to the two Zefal bottles on the bike.

I carry three bottles. Not only do I hate stuff on my back when I ride, but I like having different stuff in each bottle. Today on a 90-mile training ride, I had water in one, iced tea in another, and orange juice in the third.

check out the wingnut gear packs. (http://www.wingnutgear.com/product_details.cfm?product_id=123&image_id=308) drops the weight lower on your back, so your hips are effectively carrying the water. i picked up a used one this winter and love it... so far so good for short days, it will get a long ride test later this summer.

i have used the behind the seat mount from profile. not a bad thing - but it precludes you from using a larger seatpack or saddlebag.

and then there is ken bonner... (http://www.ultracycling.com/equipment/longrides2.html)

http://www.ultracycling.com/images/bmb06_bonner.jpg

check out the wingnut gear packs. (http://www.wingnutgear.com/product_details.cfm?product_id=123&image_id=308) drops the weight lower on your back, so your hips are effectively carrying the water. i picked up a used one this winter and love it... so far so good for short days, it will get a long ride test later this summer.

i have used the behind the seat mount from profile. not a bad thing - but it precludes you from using a larger seatpack or saddlebag.

That Wingnut thing looks like a pretty good idea. I actually prefer water bottles in my jersey pockets to CamelBaks because the weight is lower and it feels more comfortable. Seems like a good compromise. The weight distribution issue always annoyed me more when I was doing more climbing.

I've also tried the seat-mounted cages, but I had problems with bottles falling out on bumpy roads.

I always go back to water bottles in the pockets. It's simple and convenient. CamelBaks are a pain to clean if you put energy drinks in them. Water bottles are also nice because you can keep one with water and alternate flavors in others. It's also nice to be able to dump water on your head on a really hot day. Not so easy with a CamelBak.

Contrary opinion: From a behavioral standpoint, with a properly setup Camelback, you are likely to drink more and stay better hydrated, particularly in hot dry climates.

+1 And, since a water pack is usually insulated, you can fill it with water AND ICE, giving you cold water to drink for hours at a time, as well as keeping your back cool. Water bottles, having less volume per, and usually not being insulated will not keep your water cool for as long. I often wonder if those who disparage water pack usage (or wide, fast tires or bar bags a la francaise, etc) have ever actually TRIED the things they dismiss so easily...

SP
Bend, OR

Case on point. Look at what the armed services do. The Army and Marines are using camelbacks. They used to use waist mounted canteens exclusively.
For that purpose, the Camelbacks might be better. It says nothing about whether a Camelback is better than carrying water on the bike.

The Camelback might make it easier (the behavioral argument) to drink regularly (than pulling out a bottle might be).

Camelbacks aren't used in road racing.

I often wonder if those who disparage water pack usage...have ever actually TRIED the things they dismiss so easily...

Nope. I know I hate stuff on my back, so why would I try it?

If you can fit enough water on your bike, use bottles. I only have two mounts on my bike, so I use a camelback fairly often. Yeah, you end up with a giant wet spot on your back, but you also don't die as you could if you don't bring enough water. Almost happened once. I drank the last of my water with 5 miles to go up hill. That was not a fun experience.

My mountain bike has three water bottle cage mounts and I've never used any of them because you just can't expect a bottle to stay in its cage on a mountain bike, and you want your bike as light as possible to negotiate technical trails. I switched to road biking only recently, and I thought it was really strange that almost every road biker uses bottles--some on the frame, some behind the saddle, some on the bars--making you have to reach for it and take one hand away from steering, braking and shifting. I guess the weight isn't a factor because your tires are always on the ground and the ground is almost always flat--but balance might be an issue. Anyway, I bought a streamlined Camelbak (the Fairfax, with sternum strap (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PO53RU/ref=oss_product)) and on my first 20-mile ride with it I didn't even notice it was there. We'll see how it feels after longer rides but I personally hate reaching for water bottles and I hate strapping/hanging/mounting anything to my bike like under-seat packs too.

I've also tried the seat-mounted cages, but I had problems with bottles falling out on bumpy roads.


My mountain bike has three water bottle cage mounts and I've never used any of them because you just can't expect a bottle to stay in its cage on a mountain bike.

This Blackburn MTB cage would fix that. I had two on my 'cross bike and never lost a bottle off road.

http://www.nashbar.com/images/nashbar/products/large/JB-MC-BK-ANGLE.jpg

I tried the extra 2 bottle setup behind the seat, didn't like it. When I stood up to pedal the extra weight from the bottles made the bike feel funny. I usually carry 2 bottles while doing doubles. Most of the rest stops are 2-2.5 hrs apart and I drink a bottle an hour. At the rest stops I will drink a bottle of water and refill before I leave if it is hot. When I did the Davis Double I carried my Camelbak, along with my 2 bottles, but only filled it half full so I would have extra water if I needed it. I don't find them hot on my back in fact they block the sun from beating on my back and the one I have has channels for air flow to keep my back cool.

My preferred way of carrying fluids on LD rides is 2 on the frame, 2 behind the seat (frozen from the night before), and 2 Gatorades in my jersey pockets. 160 oz total and no discomfort.
I drink the 2 Gatorade bottles first and toss the empties before using the frame mount bottles. When they're gone, the previously frozen seat mount bottles have defrosted and are still ice cold.

When I'm set up in this way I can go 5-7 hours (dependent on conditions) without stopping.

So, what are the pro’s and con’s of two extra water bottles or a Camelback? There are no "pros or cons." Bottles and hydration packs are designed for differing needs.

The more important aspect of choosing equipment for a given "unknown ride" is simple. Ask other cyclists who have actually ridden the Eastern Sierra Double what they use - and why they chose their particular fluid systems.

Of course this assumes - you ask successful Sierra Double Finishers - not the people on an Internet board offering advice about rides they've never been on.

This is pathetic - what part of "they strongly suggest" - don't you understand?

For those with only two mounts:

http://www.amazon.com/TwoFish-Quick-Cage-Bottle-Stainless/dp/B001CNAVCQ

I use this on brevets. Looks a little dorky, but it works.

There are no "pros or cons." Bottles and hydration packs are designed for differing needs.

The more important aspect of choosing equipment for a given "unknown ride" is simple. Ask other cyclists who have actually ridden the Eastern Sierra Double what they use - and why they chose their particular fluid systems.

Of course this assumes - you ask successful Sierra Double Finishers - not the people on an Internet board offering advice about rides they've never been on.

This is pathetic - what part of "they strongly suggest" - don't you understand?

Ok, I'm a successful Eastern Sierra Double finisher and for that ride I'll carry 2 frame mounted bottles.

There are no "pros or cons." Bottles and hydration packs are designed for differing needs.

The more important aspect of choosing equipment for a given "unknown ride" is simple. Ask other cyclists who have actually ridden the Eastern Sierra Double what they use - and why they chose their particular fluid systems.

Of course this assumes - you ask successful Sierra Double Finishers - not the people on an Internet board offering advice about rides they've never been on.

This is pathetic - what part of "they strongly suggest" - don't you understand?

I agree with Mr Cranium. For regular brevets, where I can rely on getting water every 20 or 30 miles, I no longer use a Camelback because: 1) it put too much extra weight on my hands and butt; 2) tended to run out at unpredictable and often critical times; 3) I tended to drink too much and spend too much time stopped for nature inspections; and 4) bottles are easier to pour on your head. I can easily carry three 24oz bottles on my bike, and even on the hottest day can usually make thirty miles before running empty.

But the Sierra Double website makes it very clear that the reason they recommend a Camelback _plus_ two water bottles is that water supplies are not reliably close together:

"Planet Ultra events are held in very remote locations and generally have the potential for major extremes in weather conditions, not to mention very challenging routes. This is especially true for Heartbreak and Eastern Sierra events. Mulholland, while not so remote, is very mountainous, as is the Angeles Crest Century. The only route we offer that's somewhat "easy" and not remote is Solvang.

So, all of that said, and despite the fact we offer rider support that is second to none, we absolutely, positively, strongly and most assuredly encourage every Planet Ultra cyclist to bring, wear, and use a Camelbak. Running out of water on any ride is a bummer at the very least. So, even though we do a great job of "taking care of you" at our events, you have to take care of yourself first and so we believe that every single rider in every single one of our events would be wise to bring a Camelbak with at least 70oz. of water, plus two full, full-size water bottles. Our two cents!"

I'm thinking about getting a camelback just because there are times that I don't feel like stopping for water every 20 miles. If it's really dry and hot, 3 water bottles don't get you that far. I went for a ride in 100 degree F, 10% humidity in Utah with 5 water bottles. I ran out of water in 30 miles. It's not a pleasant feeling

This was my point above. It gets hot here in Virginia and it's really rural in places, i.e. no stores, gas stations, to stop for water--and why stop anyway when I can keep riding. I got used to using a Camelbak mountain biking years ago. My first long term use of it was riding the Montana section of thee Great Divide trail--not a lot of places to stop and fill up.

Here's a link to Kent Peterson's blog about wearing a pack: http://kentsbike.blogspot.com/2010/05/ergon-backpacks-do-one-amazing-thing.html

Obviously some people don't like them, but always having an adequate water supply is important to me.

Christian

So I'm really on the fence with what I would prefer. Right now I just have two water bottles but I don't go on too many long hauls. I was thinking about getting a camelback for when I do go on long trips but the point made about not wanting the extra weight on your body makes a lot of sense.

I do like the idea of strapping a water pouch thing to the frame of my bike though.

They offer an under jersey option; http://www.rei.com/product/795870

One occasional factor for me that one other poster somewhat alluded to -- when I'm beastly, stupid tired, and painfully clawing my way up a monster climb in the broiling mid-afternoon sun (i.e. the times I probably *most* need to keep up with hydrating), it's just *easier* (smoother and quicker) to pull that tube a few inches over and take a drink than it is to take a hand off the bars, reach down, yank the bottle out of its secure cage, and then repeat all that in reverse when the drink is done.

Some interesting comments here. Personally I dislike having anything on my back, and I find that I get through one 750ml bottle every hour - so with three bottles on the bike I am comfortable going 50-60 miles between refills. But the climate here is a lot less challenging than some of you are describing - if it reaches 25C/80F we think it's extreme. So I don't know how I'd fare cycling my centuries in 100 degree temperatures. And the absolute priority has to be staying hydrated.

I find myself using water bottles while road riding and my camelbak while offroad... the camelbak is good for keeping the weight off the bicycle(for jumping and moving it over obstacles or walking it uphill) and it is good at keeping mud and contamination out of the nozzle. While i'm on the road the camelbak feels a bit like a monkey on my back, when in the drops it slides off to the side sometimes since it isn't hanging off my shoulders. After some experimentation I am usually more comfortable with bottles on the road but might take a camelbak if i feared running out of water or didn't want to stop.

I can understand why the army uses it, but that is closer to a mountainbiker application where it is better to have the weight on your body, for road cycling it's different.

IMO, it all comes down to preference.

Camelbak pros: carry a large volume of water, keeps the liquid much cooler than any bottle I've ever used, it's a snap to drink (especially when going uphill)

Camelbak cons: not great for sports beverages, PITA to clean, sweaty back. Newer ones aren't quite so bad in this respect, with the channeled backs.

I have never found the extra weight to be a big issue, especially with the smaller ones (1.5l)

To me it's worth it for a long ride, and invaluable for a long ride in hot weather.

I say pick one up. Worst case scenario, you can use it for things like hiking.



It a wonder someone hasn't designed a camel back that is fastened to the bike.
Someone has: http://www.neverreach.com/page/page/276159.htm

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/trisports_2107_198479307

I haven't used it though, so I can't specifically vouch for it.

It a wonder someone hasn't designed a camel back that is fastened to the bike.
They have, sort of....for triathlon bikes there is a bladder than hangs between the aero bars and has a tube coming out of it.

IMO, it all comes down to preference.

Camelbak pros: carry a large volume of water, keeps the liquid much cooler than any bottle I've ever used, it's a snap to drink (especially when going uphill)

Camelbak cons: not great for sports beverages, PITA to clean, sweaty back. Newer ones aren't quite so bad in this respect, with the channeled backs.

I have never found the extra weight to be a big issue, especially with the smaller ones (1.5l)

To me it's worth it for a long ride, and invaluable for a long ride in hot weather.

I say pick one up. Worst case scenario, you can use it for things like hiking.



Someone has: http://www.neverreach.com/page/page/276159.htm

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/trisports_2107_198479307

I haven't used it though, so I can't specifically vouch for it.
Sorry I didn't see that until I posted

I have completed the Eastern Sierra Double several times and in weather that was hot and hotter in addition to the dry mountain air. Bottles are fine, but Camelbaks rule under those conditions and in the very remote areas where many of these events are held. I use bottles (for Sustained Energy etc) in addition to the camelbak (for water only) on these long rides. The one i use keeps liquids icy cool far longer than those polar bottles; the trick is not to use the pack for alot of other stuff that adds weight and/or bulk (powders, clothing, tubes, tools, kitchen sink, etc).

The one i use keeps liquids icy cool far longer than those polar bottles; the trick is not to use the pack for alot of other stuff that adds weight and/or bulk (powders, clothing, tubes, tools, kitchen sink, etc).

Which type of bottles are those?

After see the temps on the Eastern Sierra Double, start/finish in Bishop, are going to be in the mid 90's I'll be carrying 2 frame mounted water bottles with drink mix and a half full CamelBak with water.

I guess everyone should get a clue- anyone interested in performing well for hours needs some cool fluids. Every high performance ride in heat requires a strong electrolyte mix in the bottles and cold water in a hydration pack.

You can go hard-core and act like racer and drink tepid or warm water/mix from bottles - but any mature rider knows its better to put up with the discomfort of a bag on your back over the discomfort a dehydrated body.

I guess everyone should get a clue- anyone interested in performing well for hours needs some cool fluids. Every high performance ride in heat requires a strong electrolyte mix in the bottles and cold water in a hydration pack.

You can go hard-core and act like racer and drink tepid or warm water/mix from bottles - but any mature rider knows its better to put up with the discomfort of a bag on your back over the discomfort a dehydrated body.

The glans may have a point.

Yeah, he has a point! A good one too. :thumb: I'm not fond of hydration packs myself but on a hot day it sure beats the heck out of drinking hot water from a bottle. I will also use it to sprinkle cold water on my legs. When you’re putting out a strong effort in the heat that feels awfully good, helps keep the core body temps down and refreshes the legs!

I guess everyone should get a clue- anyone interested in performing well for hours needs some cool fluids. Every high performance ride in heat requires a strong electrolyte mix in the bottles and cold water in a hydration pack.

You can go hard-core and act like racer and drink tepid or warm water/mix from bottles - but any mature rider knows its better to put up with the discomfort of a bag on your back over the discomfort a dehydrated body.

Amen, brother.

Camelbacks aren't used in road racing.

Or by poseurs who want to emulate road racers.

camelbacks aren't in road racing, it was a stupid ruling if you ask me.

i like the idea of the base layer camelback, although refilling might be a little tougher

me and another bf member (who did this years ESD) did a quick tour from l.a to mammoth last july. i posted the ride report on a different forum is anyone is interested. knowing that temps were most likely to be 100º or more we decided to use camelbacks to ensure we had enough water on the desolate parts of hwy 395. my idea was to wrap the reservoir in a mylar space blanket to help keep the water cold, we also added the camelback tablets for electrolytes. the typical day was to fill the bag with ice and water in the morning at the hotel and later in the day make a stop and refill it. at the stop i would buy a 44oz cup of soda crammed with as much ice as possible and a bottle of water, drink the soda at the stop and add the ice and water to the camelback. three hours after a 118 mile day from mojave to lone pine there was still a little ice left in the camelback.

for me the difference was huge, i probably drank twice as much as i would have it i had only used bottles, i have to force myself to drink warm liquid but with the ice cold stuff it was so much easier to drink more

This is my setup. Like the Camelback this allows me to drink without taking a hand off the bars. As you can see I just used epoxy toput a length of plastic tubing in the water bottle cap. I used a Minoura Universal Water Bottle Cage Holder to mount the cage to my Nitto Lamp Holder 2 but you can also mount it directly to the handle bar.

http://wendell.shidler.hawaii.edu/bottle.jpg

I like my Camelbak. My bikes are quite small in size, and this just complicates things further. I keep my 'bak in the freezer, so instead of having a hot back I find it quite nice in the hot weather to have this ice-block on my back :D

When I get in from a ride I simply clean the bite-valve, rinse out the bladder, fill it 1/2 to 2/3 full of water (depending on how hot it is), and pop it in the freezer. This prevents the growth of bacteria and when I take it out for my next ride I top it off with water and voila, LOTS of ice water that lasts for hours - much longer than you might think as the pack is well insulated.

I know that it isn't considered "cool" to wear one on the road but quite frankly - I would much rather be considered "un-cool" than get sick or worse from dehydration.

Lately I've been packing a really good Thermos with ice and cold water on hot rides. The one I've got fits in a Topeak Modula bottle cage: http://www.sweetmarias.com/sweetmarias/miscellaneous/thermos/nissan-backpack-bottle-silver-jmw-500.html

No matter how hot the weather (up to the 90°s so far) or how long the ride (up to a 600K so far), there's still ice in it the next day.

The only drawback is it holds 16 ounces instead of the 24 my plastic bike bottles hold. But since I carry 4 bottles on brevets, I'm willing to give up 8 ounces to have the option of ice-cold liquid.