Northeast - A runner's request (GWB NYC)

Hello, I just came from the George Washington Bridge (NYC) on my Saturday morning run. I live in the neighborhood and it's very convenient to me to do sprints on the bridge as it's long and straight and I can judge my distances by the cables. Recently however, as the weather has been getting nicer, there have been more cyclists on the path on the bridge. I believe the north-walk is closed so we're all stuck together on the south-walk. This isn't an issue for me. I don't take up too much room and I can share. There are what I would consider pretty clear markings as to which side of the path is to be used for what sorts of traffic. There are signs on the cables that can be seen from both directions. There are painted figures on the path itself, granted, some are considerably faded but there are some visible ones as well. My interpretation of these markings has been that regardless of direction of travel, pedestrians go on the side closer to the vehicles and the bicycles go on the side closer to the water. If I am interpreting these signs incorrectly or if maybe there are secret rules I don't know about, please let me know.

I was shouted at today by a very shrill woman this morning and it was quite alarming. She was leading a pack of cyclists towards New Jersey as I was running back towards Manhattan. She waved at me angrily to move out of the way when as far as I could tell, I was in the correct lane for my mode of transportation. This is not the first time I have had cyclists be rude to me while I was running on the bridge.

I don't know if the cyclists see the signs or if they just don't care. I see cyclists on the street going towards the bridge and they do not stay in the bike lane (I'm not sure if they have to) and they ignore the traffic lights and ride right through red lights; I was almost hit by a cyclist as I was crossing the street a couple weeks ago, I had the right of way...

I realize that there are plenty of pedestrians on the bridge who do not follow the rules either. People want to walk by the water, not traffic. But the walkers do not seem to be in a hurry and do not mind getting out of cyclists' way. The cyclists and the runners however, are in a hurry. We all want to move as fast as we can and we don't like obstacles. When I have to stop in the middle of a sprint to let a cyclist pass, I get annoyed, I'm sure cyclists are annoyed when I run in their way and they have to stop for a moment.

So what is the solution? Should I write a letter to the city and ask them to make bigger more obvious signs? Should they repaint the figures on the path? Maybe we can have them open the north-walk and have one path for pedestrians and one for cyclists. If we can get a big enough group maybe we can change it so that pedestrians are on the side of the water and cyclists can have the side next to the cars.

My solution has been to be as polite as I can and allow everyone on the bridge as much room as they think they need. But I do not appreciate being shouted at when I am following the rules.

I plan on getting a bicycle soon. I want to ride it to school and maybe I'll take it out for rides in my spare time. But this whole mess has put a bad taste in my mouth as far as cyclists go and I'm not so sure I want to associate with them as much. I hope someone has a solution.

Thank you, Have a nice day.

You will find arrogant people in every group, running included.

oh this is a good one, grab some :popcorn everyone :p

let me break this down for you:



I was shouted at today by a very shrill woman this morning and it was quite alarming. She was leading a pack of cyclists towards New Jersey as I was running back towards Manhattan. She waved at me angrily to move out of the way when as far as I could tell, I was in the correct lane for my mode of transportation. This is not the first time I have had cyclists be rude to me while I was running on the bridge
.

I'm sorry you were shouted by an angry cyclist. The correct lane really is irrelevant on the bridge as most actually follow the "stay on your right rule." If it makes you feel better, my entire team got shouted at by an angry Luzzo rider even though none of us were in his way. Laugh it off, life is too short to obsess over the shortcomings of others.



I don't know if the cyclists see the signs or if they just don't care. I see cyclists on the street going towards the bridge and they do not stay in the bike lane (I'm not sure if they have to) and they ignore the traffic lights and ride right through red lights; I was almost hit by a cyclist as I was crossing the street a couple weeks ago, I had the right of way...


once again, i'm sorry about your encounters with cyclists. in central park, when i see a red light, i always yield (not necessarily stop). i might be disrupting the interval i was doing, but that's trivial compared to running someone over.

as for ignoring traffic light, allow me to turn to John 8:7: let he who is without sin cast the first stone. be honest now, don't tell me you have never walked across the street when the traffic perpendicular to your direction of travel has the light.



I realize that there are plenty of pedestrians on the bridge who do not follow the rules either. People want to walk by the water, not traffic. But the walkers do not seem to be in a hurry and do not mind getting out of cyclists' way. The cyclists and the runners however, are in a hurry. We all want to move as fast as we can and we don't like obstacles. When I have to stop in the middle of a sprint to let a cyclist pass, I get annoyed, I'm sure cyclists are annoyed when I run in their way and they have to stop for a moment.


if you are sprinting on the GWB for interval workouts, you are doing it wrong. there's riverside state park on 135th & columbia track (if you are affiliated with the institution) at 215th. sure i might be slightly annoyed, but i won't spend 20 minutes writing about it on the internet. but you know, this is good, it's a lot better than you upping things from annoyance to something more.



So what is the solution? Should I write a letter to the city and ask them to make bigger more obvious signs? Should they repaint the figures on the path? Maybe we can have them open the north-walk and have one path for pedestrians and one for cyclists. If we can get a big enough group maybe we can change it so that pedestrians are on the side of the water and cyclists can have the side next to the cars.


actually, the city could care less. i believe the port authority of new york & new jersey maintains the bridge. it's really very simple, stay on the right, and the cyclists will veer left to pass you.




I plan on getting a bicycle soon. I want to ride it to school and maybe I'll take it out for rides in my spare time. But this whole mess has put a bad taste in my mouth as far as cyclists go and I'm not so sure I want to associate with them as much. I hope someone has a solution.


looks like someone forgot to tell you not to judge a book by its cover




I hope someone has a solution.

Thank you, Have a nice day.

oh you so kind wishing us a nice day:rolleyes:

as for solutions: read what i wrote above, and here are other possibilities

http://www.reallyfunnypictures.co.uk/general/pics/23.02.06/chillpill.jpg, and should this fail

http://emedpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/xanax_3.jpg




You will find arrogant people in every group, running included.

+1

Haha, thanks for the reply. Running on the right side goes against my sign following instincts, but I'll give it a try, it seems like pretty solid advice. The GWB is perfect for intervals. When it's cold out and there is nobody else on the bridge it's amazing and I got hooked on it; it's also closer to my apartment so there's that. I don't mean to come off as obsessed, or arrogant (was that first reply about me or about other runners, I didn't get it, sorry), I'm just frustrated that every week this stuff happens to me and I really just wanted a solution. I figured a long post would be better than a few choice words or phrases. The crossing the street thing is a little off the mark though, as I always yield and look both ways and that whole thing. Also, I'm not going to hurt anyone but myself for crossing before my turn. I mean, if a cyclist hits me they'll get knocked off their bike but they'd probably fall on me. I was mostly using that as example of cyclists not following rules. Again, not saying I follow all the rules, but generally I'm the only one I affect when I break them. Again, thanks for the reply, I'll try the right side next week.

I appreciate you reaching out to cyclists; I've thought of doing the same thing to runners, asking them why they insist on using the bike path on the Hudson River rather than their own adjacent path. I don't know what to do about the GWB because, as has been noted, both pedestrians and cyclists tend to stay on their right side rather than obey the signs. Wish there was more room and everyone was on the same page. Not sure what can be done about that; we're ingrained to stay on the right, I think. You're way off base, though, about crossing the street. I can't tell you how many times jaywalkers have forced me to suddenly have to change lanes or stop on the street to avoid going down - and often they don't even know it's happened. How is jaywalking after yielding, looking both ways and "that whole thing" any better or worse than a cyclist approaching a red light at low speed, yielding, looking both ways and "that whole thing", then crossing the street? Let's face it, everyone breaks the law in little ways - drivers speed and roll through stop signs; pedestrians jaywalk and use paths dedicated to other forms of transportation; cyclists don't always wait for the light to turn green. To somehow imply that pedestrians crossing the street against the light is somehow less harmful than cyclists doing it strikes me as absurd.

Haha, thanks for the reply. Running on the right side goes against my sign following instincts, but I'll give it a try, it seems like pretty solid advice. The GWB is perfect for intervals. When it's cold out and there is nobody else on the bridge it's amazing and I got hooked on it; it's also closer to my apartment so there's that. I don't mean to come off as obsessed, or arrogant (was that first reply about me or about other runners, I didn't get it, sorry), I'm just frustrated that every week this stuff happens to me and I really just wanted a solution. I figured a long post would be better than a few choice words or phrases. The crossing the street thing is a little off the mark though, as I always yield and look both ways and that whole thing. Also, I'm not going to hurt anyone but myself for crossing before my turn. I mean, if a cyclist hits me they'll get knocked off their bike but they'd probably fall on me. I was mostly using that as example of cyclists not following rules. Again, not saying I follow all the rules, but generally I'm the only one I affect when I break them. Again, thanks for the reply, I'll try the right side next week.

you should seriously reconsider. that bridge is not gonna experience a decrease in traffic during the summer. how good a runner are you? if you can do a 16-17min 5k, i'd suggest you join CPTC as they have interval workouts at the Columbia track. Alternatively, you can sweet-talk the guards there if you aren't affiliated with Columbia. Riverbank state park gets sketchy in the summer as everyone uses it, but you can go in the early mornings & get a set done.

the caveat to CPTC, however, is that you may find a large number of arrogant runners.

What you might not know is that the lane assignments for bicycles are all over the place in NYC. It's almost impossible to remember what arbitrary choice the city has made for which stretch of bridge, greenway or park--and they're all marked differently, too. White lines, green lines, yellow lines, and the directions of travel are handled differently from stretch to stretch as well.

For the most part, experienced cyclists will stay right and pass on the left. The ones who don't know what they're doing (which sometimes seems to be most of those who are out in the summer) are no more predictable to us than they are to you. I change my route, when possible, to avoid summer cyclists.

And I always interpret the signs to mean, bikes on the right, peds on the left facing the oncoming bike traffic so they can actually SEE them, but maybe that's not the way they are on the GWB. That's the rule on most of the others.

so tell me a_runner, where should i post if i want to get those damn runners in central park off the bike lanes?

so tell me a_runner, where should i post if i want to get those damn runners in central park off the bike lanes?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

As you can tell, we have some trolls of our own.

Hey thanks for the other comments... most of them. I did try the running on the right thing and it seemed to work but also, it was 6 am so that might have helped. In either case I think I'll stick with that combination as it was the best bridge run I've had since the winter.

I don't know how to tell the runners to stay in their path in central park, I googled cycling forums and found you guys but I don't frequent any running forums so I don't know any good ones. I would advice against making any on the spot corrections because runners get upset when cyclists yell at them...

Hey thanks for the other comments... most of them. I did try the running on the right thing and it seemed to work but also, it was 6 am so that might have helped. In either case I think I'll stick with that combination as it was the best bridge run I've had since the winter.

I don't know how to tell the runners to stay in their path in central park, I googled cycling forums and found you guys but I don't frequent any running forums so I don't know any good ones. I would advice against making any on the spot corrections because runners get upset when cyclists yell at them...

letsrun forums is full of fun. has about as many trolls as we have here. cool running might have something, but i'm not sure

as for annoying runners in central park, i suggest you do this as there won't be referees to DQ you :p


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gscay1-yRNo&feature=fvw

If you are still here, runner, think about this. Forget markings and signals: respect is mutual. Having said that, ******** run and ******** bike. They also drive, sleep, eat, drink, and walk. I don't think that yelling is appropriate in a situation like this unless someone's about to put your life in danger. You should probably stop thinking as if you own the bridge. What happened here is that two people that think the bridge belongs to them met, and yelling occurred.

:lol::lol: Oh, the irony.

Jimbo, you spent at least 20 minutes preparing this. :lol: :lol:


oh this is a good one, grab some :popcorn everyone :p

let me break this down for you:



I'm sorry you were shouted by an angry cyclist. The correct lane really is irrelevant on the bridge as most actually follow the "stay on your right rule." If it makes you feel better, my entire team got shouted at by an angry Luzzo rider even though none of us were in his way. Laugh it off, life is too short to obsess over the shortcomings of others.



once again, i'm sorry about your encounters with cyclists. in central park, when i see a red light, i always yield (not necessarily stop). i might be disrupting the interval i was doing, but that's trivial compared to running someone over.

as for ignoring traffic light, allow me to turn to John 8:7: let he who is without sin cast the first stone. be honest now, don't tell me you have never walked across the street when the traffic perpendicular to your direction of travel has the light.



if you are sprinting on the GWB for interval workouts, you are doing it wrong. there's riverside state park on 135th & columbia track (if you are affiliated with the institution) at 215th. sure i might be slightly annoyed, but i won't spend 20 minutes writing about it on the internet. but you know, this is good, it's a lot better than you upping things from annoyance to something more.



actually, the city could care less. i believe the port authority of new york & new jersey maintains the bridge. it's really very simple, stay on the right, and the cyclists will veer left to pass you.



looks like someone forgot to tell you not to judge a book by its cover



oh you so kind wishing us a nice day:rolleyes:

as for solutions: read what i wrote above, and here are other possibilities

http://www.reallyfunnypictures.co.uk/general/pics/23.02.06/chillpill.jpg, and should this fail

http://emedpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/xanax_3.jpg





+1

I have to say as cyclist I find a lot walkers and runner to be inconsiderate.:

1)I was on the path under the Throgs Neck Bridge on Sunday and walking towards we were three young woman, three in a row they did not move when I came towards them.
2) The runners in Central Park take over the lane that are supposed to be for runners and bikes
3) A long the path near Alley Pond Path three older woman walking three across and do not respond to excuse me.

Bikes and walkers need to share the paths. Walkers/runner this does not mean you should be in a three across formation.

:lol::lol: Oh, the irony.

Jimbo, you spent at least 20 minutes preparing this. :lol: :lol:

dammit Billy, don't be calling out my bluffs:innocent:

Uh, there are lane markings on the GWB?!? Who knew? :D


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/GWB_south_walk_jeh.JPG/450px-GWB_south_walk_jeh.JPG

I second the idea that the GWB is really not ideal for runners. Too many bikes, too many pedestrians, space is way too narrow. And really, let's face it, it is not that hard to find an alternative. It'd be great if the walkway was big enough or segregated enough for everyone, but unfortunately there is just not enough space, especially at peak times.

There are tons of conflicts like this on multi-use paths -- even broad roads like in Central Park. Cyclists go too fast in Central Park when it's crowded; dog owners zealously guard their rights to allow their dogs to go off-leash in the park, while cyclists know they're up a creek if they hit a stray canine; rollerbladers take up the entire Greenway; pedestrians are oblivious to overtly marked "bike only" lanes on the Brooklyn Bridge; kids go nuts in Prospect Park and will dart right in front of you, and so forth.

Unfortunately, "X is in my way" is a perspective that is often dominated by what activity you are doing at that time, or routinely engage in. The reality is that we're in New York, and there are a lot of rude, obnoxious, self-centered motherf***ers in this town. Some run, some walk, some ride bikes, many drive taxis. I say, live it up. ;)

Uh, there are lane markings on the GWB?!? Who knew? :D


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/GWB_south_walk_jeh.JPG/450px-GWB_south_walk_jeh.JPG

I second the idea that the GWB is really not ideal for runners. Too many bikes, too many pedestrians, space is way too narrow. And really, let's face it, it is not that hard to find an alternative. It'd be great if the walkway was big enough or segregated enough for everyone, but unfortunately there is just not enough space, especially at peak times.

There are tons of conflicts like this on multi-use paths -- even broad roads like in Central Park. Cyclists go too fast in Central Park when it's crowded; dog owners zealously guard their rights to allow their dogs to go off-leash in the park, while cyclists know they're up a creek if they hit a stray canine; rollerbladers take up the entire Greenway; pedestrians are oblivious to overtly marked "bike only" lanes on the Brooklyn Bridge; kids go nuts in Prospect Park and will dart right in front of you, and so forth.

Unfortunately, "X is in my way" is a perspective that is often dominated by what activity you are doing at that time, or routinely engage in. The reality is that we're in New York, and there are a lot of rude, obnoxious, self-centered motherf***ers in this town. Some run, some walk, some ride bikes, many drive taxis. I say, live it up. ;)

Look at the photo the path is so narrow, the cars, the pedestrians and don't forget the bikes, surely you a could find better place to run.

Ah if only people would be considerate of each other things would be so much easier. We could share the paths if slow moving cyclists/pedestrians/joggers etc stayed to their right, or at least did so when they hear someone moving faster approaching.

From my perspective, the real problem is summer weekends. I'm on that bridge year-round, and it's not until the weather heats up that the swarms of unskilled cyclists and masses of oblivious runners descend from their winter lairs and start clogging up the works. I just try to avoid you all, which means early-morning starts and weekday rides.

It's MY bridge, you ingrates.

I don't ride the GW bridge much, the access ramp is not great the path on the bridge is not great and then you get to NJ.

In NJ you have cops giving cycles tickets and you have to many cycles.
I much rather take the 59th St bridge to Queens and ride in Queens.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?654148-Great-Ride-in-Queens-NY

I commute from NJ to downtown Manhattan via GWB few times a week, unfortunately some cyclist have attitude.
This people forgot how nasty is an accident such us bike against a bike or bike against a human being, technically you are few inches from the metal fence from either side. Even the best Styrofoam won't do much to protect you.
Once the NY people is on the bridge they speed up to get to 9W and same goes to NJ people, when they are getting back from NY to back home.

Also;
Port Authority seems to adopt this bird brain policy that one walkway has to be close any given time, even they post guards. If they open up the North walk way, I'm sure most people knows it has step on NJ and NYC side, but it will give a choice to some, specially busy summer days. What I like is that on NYC side from the North walk way, you are in the bike path in with in a few city blocks, versus almost 20 city blocks on south side of the GW Bridge. You are in traffic much less, that should count for a plus.

Also;
Port Authority seems to adopt this bird brain policy that one walkway has to be close any given time, even they post guards. If they open up the North walk way, I'm sure most people knows it has step on NJ and NYC side, but it will give a choice to some, specially busy summer days. What I like is that on NYC side from the North walk way, you are in the bike path in with in a few city blocks, versus almost 20 city blocks on south side of the GW Bridge. You are in traffic much less, that should count for a plus.

Not quite sure what you're referring to regarding the 20 blocks to the greenway from the south walkway; the north walkway leaves you on 179th and Pinehurst as opposed to the south walkway which leaves you on 178th and Haven. I agree that the north walkway makes it easier to access the greenway at 181st and Riverside, but getting to the greenway from 178th and Haven isn't a problem at all.

From GW Bridge south walkway, what street do you use to enter green way, is it 158th?
If it is, you are in city traffic for 20 blocks,when you use to north walkway you will be on the greenway faster, saves some lost time from the stairs of the North walk way.
But my original debate was the opening up the both walkways, for most runners stairs doesn't posses any problem.

From GW Bridge south walkway, what street do you use to enter green way, is it 158th?

181st. It's a 3-minute jaunt.

Well, if you are coming from south walkway. You are going backwards, and it is not a 3 minute jaunt.

Three minutes. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=178th+st+and+cabrini+10033&daddr=40.849657,-73.939855+to:Riverside+Dr+%26+W+181st+St,+New+York,+NY+10033&geocode=FYFObwIdtL-X-ymzgETtofbCiTGZbZRy2egXUw%3B%3BFS1ZbwIdCLyX-ynnZ0rgo_bCiTEauG6U99sabg&hl=en&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=17&via=1&dirflg=w&sll=40.850285,-73.94015&sspn=0.005088,0.00648&ie=UTF8&z=17)

Well, if you are coming from south walkway. You are going backwards, and it is not a 3 minute jaunt.

The entrance to the greenway on 181st is not far from the south walkway, certainly closer than riding to 158th.

will be, are you saying you don't want to backtrack? You can also take the ramp at Haven Ave. between 176th and 177th and follow it down and around until it connects with the greenway at roughly the same location as the 181st route does. There are a few stairs, a short, smelly tunnel, and a transient population, so 181st is my choice, but the alternative does exist.

Shouting idiots abound.
Do what you think is right, but sometimes it's best to go with the flow. If you've got only one path, what works best here in North America is for all non-cars to stay right and pass left. Icons and signs that say otherwise could be too much for some people.

Mr.noteon
Thanks for the input, I did not know the entrance on Heaven and 177th , is it next to parking lot?
and "Hillrat" we are not shouting , this is a discussion about a a entrance to greenway and I'm grateful to Mr. Noteon for his information.

The ramp entrance is on Haven, right at 177th:

This is the entrance. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=haven+ave+and+177th+st&sll=40.848119,-73.942025&sspn=0.000677,0.000971&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=W+177th+St+%26+Haven+Ave,+New+York&ll=40.848164,-73.942194&spn=0.000677,0.000971&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=40.84811,-73.942102&panoid=Yhe_IveCnATL6G0fO8pHAg&cbp=12,326.46,,2,5.71) Zoom out and you'll see it on the map.

a_runner, I fully understand your frustration. You're following the rules and getting attitude for it. I found the same thing when I rode through Queens a couple of weeks ago - I got a few dirty looks for riding where I was supposed to be riding.

Mr.noteon
Thanks for the input, I did not know the entrance on Heaven and 177th , is it next to parking lot?
and "Hillrat" we are not shouting , this is a discussion about a a entrance to greenway and I'm grateful to Mr. Noteon for his information.

Actually it was a discussion about riding etiquette on the bridge path that went on some other tangents. I don't think Hilrat was referring to you.

I found the same thing when I rode through Queens a couple of weeks ago - I got a few dirty looks for riding where I was supposed to be riding.

Impossible. No one's supposed to be riding in Queens.

Impossible. No one's supposed to be riding in Queens.

I wish I had known that then! I wouldn't have had such a good time!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4653239782_722d333125.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilfein/4653239782/in/set-72157624042376181)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4653240372_04f8a5a780.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilfein/4653240372/in/set-72157624042376181)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4012/4653240928_74d79d84f0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilfein/4653240928/in/set-72157624042376181)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/4653241532_f62c9b794c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilfein/4653241532/in/set-72157624042376181)

I also appreciate your reaching out and recognizing that not all cyclists are aggressive hotheads, BUT are you sure running on steel bridge is the best thing for your knees? That sounds like a recipe for putting an orthopedic surgeon's kids through school. Ivy league schools.

I also appreciate your reaching out and recognizing that not all cyclists are aggressive hotheads, BUT are you sure running on steel bridge is the best thing for your knees? That sounds like a recipe for putting an orthopedic surgeon's kids through school. Ivy league schools.

steel is actually softer than concrete, which is the material of the pedestrian paths. steel does get nasty when wet though, even when you are walking

It's all hopeless. On the Queensboro bridge, the bike/ped path has clearly marked sides for bike and ped. Mostly the peds do stick to their side, but most of the bikes also ride in the ped side. I'm not sure why but I think we're trying to keep as far away from the car exhaust as possible. Still, for some reason that I just don't understand, some peds insist on walking in the bike side, which is right next to all the cars.

On the Williamsburg Bridge, biking towards Brooklyn in the afternoon is tough because of all the kids on skateboards on the bike side. I guess that's only fair, at least they're on wheels. But like some sort of swarm, they fill up the whole lane. Luckily I have an air horn.

South path eastbound approaching the guardhouse on the NY side, everything seems fine.
Port Authority is trying to seperate the bikers from the peds/runners:

157251

Here's the problem, westbound the PA is saying the cyclists and peds use the SAME lane
for approaching traffic. So bikers hit other bikers headon and runners the same thing:

157252

My suggestion is approach with caution, use the mirrors and stay right pass left.
Cyclists AND runners/peds/rollerbladers.

157253